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(Gawker)   "I am sorry that it has come to this." One of the 22-a-day's letter   (gawker.com) divider line 389
    More: Sad, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Mosul, Joint Special Operations Command, widows and orphans, international incidents, Dungeons & Dragons deities, sufficient reason  
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24283 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 12:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-22 10:55:09 PM  
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...
 
2013-06-22 10:59:40 PM  
You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.


To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA.
Any blame rests with them.


I've been trying to get through to people about this shiat for some time now but no one wants to listen. I'm certainly not alone.

In fact, I think just a week ago I got lambasted by for pointing out I know men that have gone through this very thing and carry tortured souls because of it.

Look this HARD IN THE FARKING FACE. This is what the stars and stripes will be known for by future generations if we can't learn to be honest with ourselves and face the realities we are causing across the world while we silently lie to ourselves.

/I feel sorry for this man
//I feel partly responsible too, we all should
 
2013-06-22 11:01:52 PM  
Jesus.
 
2013-06-23 12:12:26 AM  
fark. farking terrible.
 
2013-06-23 12:17:46 AM  
He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way
 
2013-06-23 12:22:23 AM  
I chose to serve. But I didn't want the mental anguish accociated with me having to shoot another person. I chose the easy road and got luck that I was on a biatch plane that didn't bring death. Just laughs
 
2013-06-23 12:23:04 AM  
Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.
 
2013-06-23 12:23:49 AM  
Hmmm.  Well.  shiat.

I know I am hoping against inevitability but I really hope that the usual trolls leave this one alone.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:02 AM  
Just think, the same, right wing, Christian military mindset that put him in this situation, says suicide is a sin.

Can't win for losing.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:38 AM  
Annnnnd too late.
 
2013-06-23 12:24:41 AM  
Everyone has their breaking point whether it's military or not.

Be kind to people you don't know; he or she may be this guy and you may just be the trigger that gives them hope or helps them decide to leave.
 
2013-06-23 12:25:46 AM  
It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.
 
2013-06-23 12:25:53 AM  
It's a shame he didn't have the courage to be a whistleblower and attempt to redress his wrongs by telling everyone about them and trying to ensure they did not recur.
 
2013-06-23 12:27:22 AM  
My cousin signed up for the Army at the last possible age they will take you. Left a huge salary on the table and his wife and infant daughter. Ended up in OCS, got his butter bars (2nd Lt) and sent to Afghanistan then later Iraq. Multiple tours. He was not Infantry but some kind of logistics with trucking. No one knows what happened - he's not talking - but his convoy got hit with an IED and he ended up with a bronze star and purple heart. We know no details as he no longer communicates with any of us or his wife and kid. Something is bad wrong, and stories like this, they just hit home.
 
2013-06-23 12:28:12 AM  
diagnosed with traumatic brain injury

TBI is awful. It can change everything for everyone, victim, family and caretakers too. It can make the victim a completely different personality.
 
2013-06-23 12:28:18 AM  
fark the political statements and commentary.  fark the left and the right views.  fark the trolls


This is a man that has found himself without an answer to the horrors hes haunted by and it is truly heartbreaking.
 
2013-06-23 12:28:24 AM  
sad,
but if he really wanted to make a point he should have documented and reported the war crimes he was forced to participate in.
this is the way that change is made. Obit manifestos with no proof ring hollow on the wrapped in stars and stripes "real merikuns".
it is a shame that so many people like being lied to because it makes them feel safe and that anyone one, on either side, has to die for a pack of lies.
the jokes on us, because we are so afraid of the other we forgot that we were supposed to be the good guy.
$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
2013-06-23 12:29:20 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.


And yet the death rate is at an all-time low, as well as warfare, while standards of living are better than ever.
 
2013-06-23 12:30:05 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


You must be drunk
 
2013-06-23 12:30:37 AM  

deffuse: Annnnnd too late.


It's not a total loss, the people who are going to be jackasses that bad in this thread pretty much mark themselves for the ignore lists(or favorite with a note) of anyone who has any sort of moral standard. They out themselves, and we're all better off.
 
2013-06-23 12:30:58 AM  
Damn. When you're feeling that messed up...
 
2013-06-23 12:31:04 AM  
I'm dealing with PTSD myself. I know exactly what he means with the medications, and the docs won't listen to you anyway when you tell them what's wrong because they're in the pharmaceutical companies' pockets.

I'm sorry he couldn't find a way out, and I'm sorry the his country wouldn't help in. I finally got light at the end of my tunnel, but it's been a damn dark 7 years to get here.
 
2013-06-23 12:31:42 AM  
So what are these war crimes we're perpetuating and systematically covering up? Would have been nice of you wrote that one down in detail, sergeant suicide.
 
2013-06-23 12:31:46 AM  
When he mentioned Bush and Cheney, it really struck a chord. How unbelievably ignorant and stupid are we training our children to be that they willingly sign up for military service after it has become crystal clear that the war in Iraq was not fought in defense of this country but for reasons that, if uttered, come off sounding like the ravings of a schizophrenic lunatic, and yet are completely true?

I've said it before. Anyone who signed up after the 9/11 attacks can be forgiven, even commended, for their patriotism. But anyone who signed up after it became clear Bush intended to invade a country that had nothing to do with the attacks and posed no credible threat to America was a dupe or an idiot.

This man was 30. If he joined up at 18, that puts him in the former group. What a waste.

Don't talk to me about your patriotism or your goddamned "greater sense of duty than I'll ever know". fark you. fark you and every person who supports the policies and actions of a government that has proven itself over the past 12 years to be the enemy of its citizens.
 
2013-06-23 12:32:14 AM  

Wookie_Jesus: sad, but if he really wanted to make a point he should have documented and reported the war crimes he was forced to participate in.


That's what Pat Tillman would do.
 
2013-06-23 12:32:14 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.


Yeah, like it has for the last 10000 years, and it will for the next 10000. But don't worry, evolution is still happening, one day you'll get your wish, there won't actually be any humans anymore.
 
2013-06-23 12:32:36 AM  
The military, and therefore this administration, is farking over our soldiers by not providing them with the care the need and have EARNED.  They are going so far as to kick out soldiers who did their duty under the worse conditions.  Kicking them out with "less than honorable" discharges over the pettiest of shiat so they are not eligible for VA benefits that are absolutely essential for them to ever hope to resume a normal life.

It's bad enough to send them into combat zones far beyond what should be expected of any person.  But to throw them away when they are no longer useful is treating with a contempt that sickens me.  We treat stray dogs better than this.

Fark Congress.  Fark Obama (he is the commander in chief).  And fark the military brass for allowing these inhumane actions to happen.
 
2013-06-23 12:32:38 AM  

whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk


I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.
 
2013-06-23 12:34:00 AM  
While I hope a foolhardy hope no other servicemen and women take their lives, and I recognize there is a concern for glorification of suicide, I hope there is a flood of these letters being shared. We need significant reforms to our care for our troops in all areas, in the field and back home, but especially in psychological health. We should have been making significant reforms back towards Vietnam when what was happening first truly emerged.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:25 AM  
The military has gotten better at training killers.  They shoot faster and more often by objectifying those that are their targets.  But they have been thrown in low intensity wars in urban areas...not battlefields.  So unfortunately for those that live in urban areas the US has loosed a bunch of people trained to shoot first and ask questions latter.  Which creates just tons of "collateral damage" destroying families and lives in Iraq or Afghanistan.  AND unfortunately for the soldiers many times they are thrown into situations where they shoot and kill those that they would/should normally never target.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:38 AM  
I understand the pain, the anger, the depression and the desire for release. I think about how wonderful it would be to not exist anymore. I also think/hope that someday it will get better and when I'm on my Harley cruising down the road...it is. I am sorry brother that you couldn't see a way out.


"As long as war is regarded as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular." - Oscar Wilde
 
2013-06-23 12:35:40 AM  

Wookie_Jesus: but if he really wanted to make a point he should have documented and reported the war crimes he was forced to participate in.
this is the way that change is made.


Kinda hard to be rational when you've been driven farking nuts by the insane shiat you've done and the injuries you've sustained.

Also, a manifesto wouldn't do much more good, because, obviously, anyone with a smidge of cleverness will write off the worst of it as the ramblings of a lunatic.

Change is made more by the sane and compassionate that have to be listened to, that still have the mental capacity and the endurance to attempt it.  You cannot rationally hold a broken man accountable in such a manner.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:48 AM  

Godscrack: Just think, the same, right wing, Christian military mindset that put him in this situation, says suicide is a sin.

Can't win for losing.


BTW, that "Annnd too late" wasn't aimed at you.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:52 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


I remember quite clearly the lies that were told to the United Nations and the unilateral action Bush took when he didn't get the support he wanted.  The war on Iraq was preceded by the largest global protest in history, and completely ignored.  It was a horrible evil that has forever destroyed the reputation of our country.
 
2013-06-23 12:35:52 AM  

OgreMagi: Kicking them out with "less than honorable" discharges over the pettiest of shiat so they are not eligible for VA benefits that are absolutely essential for them to ever hope to resume a normal life.


That is some low shiat right there.
 
2013-06-23 12:37:17 AM  
Tell you one thing: if you know ANYONE who is foolish enough to consider voluntarily signing up for military service, slap it the hell out of them. Disadvantaged kids on the streets who are choosing between gang life, and the military? Seriously, choose the gangs. You're dead, either way, but you've got better odds on the street. Make money, get out of the game while you can, move away.
 
2013-06-23 12:37:17 AM  
Man, that sucks. I don't really know what to say. On the one hand we're really failing a lot of our soldiers who need us, but a part of me still feels that suicide is (99.999% of the time) not the answer. And I don't want to try to say that in a cheesy, after school special, "It gets better" sort of way or anything... it's just awful, awful awful for everyone involved.
 
2013-06-23 12:37:54 AM  
So I'm torn here. I know it was a bullshait war to begin with. I won't doubt he was "forced" to participate in things that just aren't right. I feel for him, but at the same time I take issue with a tiny detail.

My hang-up is the participation. If he knew what he was doing to be so horrid, wouldn't the best course of action be to take an other than honorable  discharge?
 
2013-06-23 12:38:38 AM  

whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk


Or a startlingly adept troll. Or cognitively impaired.
 
2013-06-23 12:38:43 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


This is both true and misleading. Saddam certainly did enough to more than justify our actions there, but the actual pretext used was largely false (no, it wasn't completely false). But, whether there was justification or not, the thing to remember is that it wasn't necessary at the time. Afghanistan was the target, and a righteous one, not Iraq. But even more so, it was an opportunity for the US to take the ultimate high road and publicly examine why the events took place, why we're disliked so much in certain parts of the world, etc - and make decisive, public commitments to change those actions and the perceptions. It would most certainly not have stopped the fanatics, but among the civilized, we would have so much standing that nations would have popped a hamstring to stand by us on any subsequent need for action.

Instead, we had a batch of short-sighted fools do stupid, short-sighted things.

/Republican
 
2013-06-23 12:40:48 AM  
The company I work for just finished a HUGE instructional/interactive program for the military...they are taking a new approach to medicine called PCMH - "Patient Centered Medical Home".  If it helps even one soldier then it was all worth it.

Our next project is for TBI, which is also getting a lot more attention these days from military doctors.
 
2013-06-23 12:41:06 AM  
Just curious... he mentions the issues he's had for "20 years", but he died at 30..

Did he enlist at 10?

/braces for the flames
 
2013-06-23 12:41:43 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


Roight, guv.  And george w. bush isn't to blame for what george w. bush did.
 
2013-06-23 12:42:06 AM  
imgs.xkcd.com
 
2013-06-23 12:42:10 AM  

Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...


Why would you ruin such an awesome natural feature of the earth by poisoning it with that?

And I guess the nuke would be bad for it, too.
 
2013-06-23 12:42:47 AM  

ladyfortuna: And I guess the nuke would be bad for it, too.


Probably make it more spectacular.
 
2013-06-23 12:42:57 AM  
He should put a question mark at then end of paragraph 13.
 
2013-06-23 12:43:16 AM  

bismark189: Just curious... he mentions the issues he's had for "20 years", but he died at 30..

Did he enlist at 10?

/braces for the flames


No flames needed. Lots of people suffer from depression and mental issues.

One could argue that every human is some shade of insane.
 
2013-06-23 12:43:24 AM  
I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.
 
2013-06-23 12:43:53 AM  

FLMountainMan: Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.

And yet the death rate is at an all-time low, as well as warfare, while standards of living are better than ever.


All we have to fear is fear itself
 
2013-06-23 12:44:41 AM  
Obama having a tough time in the polls so we need another BUT BUSH!!!  story, eh?

Get ready for Syria!  DAMN You BUSH!
 
2013-06-23 12:44:46 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: was a dupe or an idiot.


or desperate. A job is a job, you can't really get turned away if you're anything approaching a respectable human being, and it can get you the hell out of a bad place in a hurry, be it a ghetto, abusive home, even away from impending legal punishment in some circumstances etc.

or simply unaware of the news/politics of the times. Newsflash: Not everyone watches the news and reads the blogs and everything else it takes to be an armchair expert.
 
2013-06-23 12:45:49 AM  

the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way


I'll take the troll bait.

Are you implying that because we willing chose to serve in the Armed Forces we should somehow be immune to challenges and illnesses that might result?    Are you saying that, because we volunteered, the decisions of those in Washington to place us in questionable situations requiring questionable responses to maintain our own safety shouldn't have an impact on our psyche.    Perhaps you are suggesting that we are taught to maintain focus in terrible situations and to rely on training first, rather than emotion.   What do you think happens to those bottled-up emotions?   For some people, like Mr. Somers, they never vanish.
 
2013-06-23 12:45:53 AM  

JoanHaus: Tell you one thing: if you know ANYONE who is foolish enough to consider voluntarily signing up for military service, slap it the hell out of them. Disadvantaged kids on the streets who are choosing between gang life, and the military? Seriously, choose the gangs. You're dead, either way, but you've got better odds on the street. Make money, get out of the game while you can, move away.


If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
-- Wilfred Owen, died 4 Nov 1918;
   the war ended a week later
 
2013-06-23 12:46:34 AM  

cabbyman: Get ready for Syria! DAMN You BUSH!


We're being heavily prepped for Syria and there's always the background drumbeat for Iran.
 
2013-06-23 12:46:45 AM  
i1182.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-23 12:48:00 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.


So do I. I remember your relentless war hawkishness. I'm also aware that only Bush and his fellow Repugs like you were concerned about a few irrelevent UN regulations dating from 1991 that no intelligent person would think would be worth dying for, let alone 4,000 Americans dying for (not to mention $2 billion down the drain).

Was the war worth your rabid hawkishness? Good return on investment? If you had to do it all over again, would you still rabidly demand ground invasion, like you did in 2003?

Because given that we (those of us who debated you in 2002 and 2003 before the invasion) were all telling you that 93% of Saddam's WMD's had been accounted for, any remaining would be well past their shelf-life, I can certainly say that I am 100% vindicated by the disgustingly useless and worthless war that followed, and war hawks like you failed the moral test of a generation. You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.
 
2013-06-23 12:48:17 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


Please, do tell us who Saddam was shooting at?
 
2013-06-23 12:48:50 AM  

cabbyman: Obama having a tough time in the polls so we need another BUT BUSH!!!  story, eh?

Get ready for Syria!  DAMN You BUSH!


Syria is going to hell and it's all B. Hussein Osama's fault because he won't bomb Syria back to the Stone Age.  At least that's what Krauthammer would have us believe.
 
2013-06-23 12:49:00 AM  

OgreMagi: Fark Congress. Fark Obama (he is the commander in chief). And fark the military brass for allowing these inhumane actions to happe


Why does "Fark Obama" need clarification?
 
2013-06-23 12:49:31 AM  

error 303: but a part of me still feels that suicide is (99.999% of the time) not the answer.


The issue with understanding the mind of a suicide is the rest of us, even if we have contemplated or attempted suicide, are not dead. Quite easy to say the answer is not suicide when we are not of the mindset which did claim our own life. Not a disagreement with you, but I think we would be better served by understanding this is someone working against eons of self-preservation instinct rather than simply lack of recognition of better outlets.

For a non-military example of a man most of us should admire, Stephen Fry recently attempted suicide and was only saved by a producer stumbling upon him unconscious. Not sure how much better the world could become for him, and he readily acknowledges an utter lack of rationale. This man, Daniel Somers, appears to have a similar thought process.
 
2013-06-23 12:49:34 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: So what are these war crimes we're perpetuating and systematically covering up? Would have been nice of you wrote that one down in detail, sergeant suicide.


There weren't any. This guy was troubled by more than just depression.
 
2013-06-23 12:49:56 AM  
I'm just saying you become a whisper in the wind unless you have hard evidence when you are arguing with people that believe that a dinosaur riding Jesus wants them to kill everything that ain't right by their reasoning.
These are ignorant birthers that demand physical evidence.
Think of how hard it would be to convince you that your whole ideology was a shell game sold to you by a bunch of carnies that you, your father, and your grandfather all voted into office.
reality isn't palatable for middle america so they turn up the volume and pull down the shades, hoping that praying will make everything o.k.
 
2013-06-23 12:50:36 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.


Fark you. Fark you right in the ass. Fark you. Fark you again, asswipe. Fark you.
 
2013-06-23 12:50:52 AM  

fusillade762: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

Please, do tell us who Saddam was shooting at?


Coalition planes enforcing the no-fly zone, for starters.
 
2013-06-23 12:50:52 AM  

bismark189: Just curious... he mentions the issues he's had for "20 years", but he died at 30..

Did he enlist at 10?

/braces for the flames


He was implying that the government has spent the last 20 years denying the existence of and refusing to adequately treat PTSD and widespread traumatic brain injury to soldiers involved in military operations from the first Gulf War onward.  The phrasing was a little confusing, but not that hard to parse.
 
2013-06-23 12:51:59 AM  

omeganuepsilon: AverageAmericanGuy: was a dupe or an idiot.

or desperate. A job is a job, you can't really get turned away if you're anything approaching a respectable human being, and it can get you the hell out of a bad place in a hurry, be it a ghetto, abusive home, even away from impending legal punishment in some circumstances etc.

or simply unaware of the news/politics of the times. Newsflash: Not everyone watches the news and reads the blogs and everything else it takes to be an armchair expert.


You don't need to be an armchair expert to have known that Iraq was wrong. If you believed that joining up to fight Saddam was right, you were either duped by the propaganda or were too dumb to see it for what it was. And you were let down by the society that raised you.

I will grant desperation, and the failing economy certainly didn't hurt enrollment numbers.
 
2013-06-23 12:52:00 AM  
Everyone should read the book "War is a Racket" by Major General Smedley Butler before enlisting.  A person shouldn't make such important life decisions uninformed.

If what this soldier says is true; I think shining a light on the situation could have been his saving grace.
 
2013-06-23 12:53:35 AM  

bismark189: Just curious... he mentions the issues he's had for "20 years", but he died at 30..

Did he enlist at 10?

/braces for the flames




Read it more carefully.
"Beyond that, there are the host of physical illnesses that have struck me down again and again, for which they also offer no help. There might be some progress by now if they had not spent nearly twenty years denying the illness that I and so many others were exposed to."

I believe he's referring to Gulf War syndrome. I wasn't aware that Operation Iraqi Freedom vets were also suffering from that, but apparently they are.
 
2013-06-23 12:54:28 AM  

sendtodave: OgreMagi: Fark Congress. Fark Obama (he is the commander in chief). And fark the military brass for allowing these inhumane actions to happe

Why does "Fark Obama" need clarification?


Because some people seem to forget that when it comes down to it, the president is in charge of the military.  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".
 
2013-06-23 12:55:18 AM  
"Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me."  YUP.  This should be army medicine's slogan.
 
2013-06-23 12:55:45 AM  
It is hard to imagine how much people say they support the troops and yet how little support they get
 
2013-06-23 12:56:48 AM  
People who supported the Iraq invasion back in 2003 were clueless swine.
 
2013-06-23 12:57:02 AM  
So far I can see exactly one cockbag in this thread.
 
2013-06-23 12:57:28 AM  

Corn_Fed: You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.


Obama promised in 2008 to have all combat brigades out of Iraq in 16 months. You and the other liberals need to wash the blood off your own hands before calling out anyone else, especially after electing this fool for a second term.
 
2013-06-23 12:57:31 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.


Yeah, I also like to blame the victim.
 
2013-06-23 12:57:40 AM  

OgreMagi: Because some people seem to forget that when it comes down to it, the president is in charge of the military. He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".


Because Obama is always at fault for things that have happened since forever.
 
2013-06-23 12:58:17 AM  

inntheory: It is hard to imagine how much people say they support the troops and yet how little support they get


Well, see, sending them off to war is patriotic; taking care of them when they get back is socialism.

I heard it on the radio.
 
2013-06-23 12:58:46 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: omeganuepsilon: AverageAmericanGuy: was a dupe or an idiot.

or desperate. A job is a job, you can't really get turned away if you're anything approaching a respectable human being, and it can get you the hell out of a bad place in a hurry, be it a ghetto, abusive home, even away from impending legal punishment in some circumstances etc.

or simply unaware of the news/politics of the times. Newsflash: Not everyone watches the news and reads the blogs and everything else it takes to be an armchair expert.

You don't need to be an armchair expert to have known that Iraq was wrong. If you believed that joining up to fight Saddam was right, you were either duped by the propaganda or were too dumb to see it for what it was. And you were let down by the society that raised you.

I will grant desperation, and the failing economy certainly didn't hurt enrollment numbers.


Postscript: Those that signed up out of desperation have made this country worse. They have joined the government machine that exists to exploit the poor, desperate, and ignorant to feed the egos of politicians. They participate in actions that increase global suffering and increase hate of Americans. They make the world a more unsafe place for their own countrymen.
 
2013-06-23 12:58:53 AM  

OgreMagi: sendtodave: OgreMagi: Fark Congress. Fark Obama (he is the commander in chief). And fark the military brass for allowing these inhumane actions to happe

Why does "Fark Obama" need clarification?

Because some people seem to forget that when it comes down to it, the president is in charge of the military.  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".


Ah.  K.  I thought that wasn't something you were supposed to say around here or something.
 
2013-06-23 12:59:15 AM  
OgreMagi:  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".

Can I please get directions to the dream world you live in?

It's not that simple when you're dealing with the middle management that is military senior NCOs and a-hole officers. And I say this from experience and actually liking *some* of the ones I worked for.
 
2013-06-23 12:59:18 AM  

inntheory: OgreMagi: Because some people seem to forget that when it comes down to it, the president is in charge of the military. He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".

Because Obama is always at fault for things that have happened since forever.


Never forget that he's black, too.
 
2013-06-23 12:59:33 AM  
The Military is, for many, a shackle around their neck for the rest of their lives. Some get used to the constant weight, others end up like him. I'm glad he's free now.
 
2013-06-23 12:59:39 AM  
So how has  Operation  Iraqi  Liberation worked out so far?
 
2013-06-23 12:59:42 AM  
I feel sick.
 
2013-06-23 12:59:50 AM  
So when is SEAL Team Six going to land in Crawford?
 
2013-06-23 12:59:59 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: Corn_Fed: You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

Obama promised in 2008 to have all combat brigades out of Iraq in 16 months. You and the other liberals need to wash the blood off your own hands before calling out anyone else, especially after electing this fool for a second term.


Go to hell, war supporter.

You filth started the dumbest war in American history, and now you whine because Obama couldn't end it fast enough?

Eat a gigantic bowl of dicks the size of Falloujah.
 
2013-06-23 01:00:15 AM  
I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?
 
2013-06-23 01:00:17 AM  

bwilson27: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

Fark you. Fark you right in the ass. Fark you. Fark you again, asswipe. Fark you.


I like the part where you say "Fark you"
 
2013-06-23 01:01:25 AM  

Bumblefark: I heard it on the radio.


It is hard to listen to the constant barrage of bs the radio talking heads spout when somehow it seems to ignore beyond the hokey patriotism the peoples lives effected, be it the soldiers we send to die or the people we intend to displace or kill for our economic interests.
 
2013-06-23 01:01:27 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: AverageAmericanGuy: omeganuepsilon: AverageAmericanGuy: was a dupe or an idiot.

or desperate. A job is a job, you can't really get turned away if you're anything approaching a respectable human being, and it can get you the hell out of a bad place in a hurry, be it a ghetto, abusive home, even away from impending legal punishment in some circumstances etc.

or simply unaware of the news/politics of the times. Newsflash: Not everyone watches the news and reads the blogs and everything else it takes to be an armchair expert.

You don't need to be an armchair expert to have known that Iraq was wrong. If you believed that joining up to fight Saddam was right, you were either duped by the propaganda or were too dumb to see it for what it was. And you were let down by the society that raised you.

I will grant desperation, and the failing economy certainly didn't hurt enrollment numbers.

Postscript: Those that signed up out of desperation have made this country worse. They have joined the government machine that exists to exploit the poor, desperate, and ignorant to feed the egos of politicians. They participate in actions that increase global suffering and increase hate of Americans. They make the world a more unsafe place for their own countrymen.


So let's cut funding for education. In fact, let's just cut the entire department of education.
Ban unions, too.
And eliminate the USDA
Deregulate 
Cut welfare
 
2013-06-23 01:01:27 AM  

PostApocalypticTribe: I feel sick.


So do I. Did you have General Tso's for dinner, too?
 
2013-06-23 01:02:34 AM  

Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...


Hey, you leave the Grand Canyon out of this.  I haven't gotten to visit it yet.
 
2013-06-23 01:03:05 AM  
crack-fiend:

I like the part where you say "Fark you"


I'm thrilled for you.
 
2013-06-23 01:03:07 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Not sure, but has close combat gotten more intense, or more gruesome with technology?
 
2013-06-23 01:03:30 AM  
For millenia, soldiers have been haunted like this - but also for millenia, the threat of eternal consequences after death brought by cultural religious beliefs was enough to keep suicide down.

Now, though, the philosophy/religion of atheism is much more common, logically removing this concern for many, and this is simply a predictable result (regardless of any right or wrongness.)

There are those that refer to religion as a crutch, or simple comfort for the weak; an "opiate of the masses" etc.

Well good job, atheists. People like this no longer have that comfort.
 
2013-06-23 01:03:41 AM  

OgreMagi: Fark Obama


I will say he's not without his demons, but in many area's, he is just a figurehead.  Most presidents are.  You can't even class them as "leaders" any more.  The get to pick a cause or three to rally the people towards, and that's pretty much the extent of their power. Both Bushes picked their things, fairly obviously selfish things.  Clinton picked his, the Lewinski and the economy.  Obama got his healthcare and some economic pushes.

Still kind of a lazy shiat in comparison, granted.  But he's also the most recent, meaning that if the position declines in power over time, he''s had the least.  He answers for a lot, as in glorified Public Relations.  This guy is ALWAYS on TV and making speeches to the people.

Personally, I think our government is beyond all repair.  We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it.  We have a side show three ring circus.
 
2013-06-23 01:04:45 AM  

bwilson27: crack-fiend:

I like the part where you say "Fark you"


I'm thrilled for you.


Well deserved in Stryperswine's case.
 
2013-06-23 01:05:38 AM  

Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

So do I. I remember your relentless war hawkishness. I'm also aware that only Bush and his fellow Repugs like you were concerned about a few irrelevent UN regulations dating from 1991 that no intelligent person would think would be worth dying for, let alone 4,000 Americans dying for (not to mention $2 billion down the drain).

Was the war worth your rabid hawkishness? Good return on investment? If you had to do it all over again, would you still rabidly demand ground invasion, like you did in 2003?

Because given that we (those of us who debated you in 2002 and 2003 before the invasion) were all telling you that 93% of Saddam's WMD's had been accounted for, any remaining would be well past their shelf-life, I can certainly say that I am 100% vindicated by the disgustingly useless and worthless war that followed, and war hawks like you failed the moral test of a generation. You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.




First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.
 
2013-06-23 01:06:35 AM  
My dad was in Vietnam...I never knew any details of what he did until just a few days before he died.

War is not a pretty thing folks.  And to expect soldiers to just assimilate back into society after seeing and doing things that any ordinary citizen can not imagine is ridiculously irresponsible.

I asked for someone (because I knew he wouldn't give them to me) to get "20 rules of wisdom" from him about 2 years before he died.  I know it's fark and some may ridicule some of them, but whatever...some are worth sharing:


1 Live for the day.

2 Never get married.

3 If somebody hits you go find a 2X4 and hit him back. He'll never hit you again.

4 Stay in school and get a good education.

5 Be good to your mother.

6 Be good to animals.

7 - Never let people know how really smart you are. Better to act dumb and be smart then to be dumb and act smart

8 - Get a job that you like. If you don't like your job change it until you find a job you do like.

9 The past is the past and you can't change it so just forget about it .

10 Always trust in yourself and you'll never let yourself down.

11 If you can't please yourself you can't please nobody else.

12 Always have a fast car so you can get away.

13 The best friend you can have is yourself.

14 If you are going to lie you better have a good memory.

15 Figure out what you believe in and believe in it for the rest of your life.

16 Always grin - this way people don't know what you are really thinking.

17 Pull your pants up.

18 Never go into the military because all you are doing is fighting for big corporations and politics.

19 Nothing is wrong with the world - it's just the people in it.

20 Always find the fun in things.
 
2013-06-23 01:07:05 AM  

Corn_Fed: Go to hell, war supporter.


You're on crack cocaine if you think I support any war, you reading-impaired drug addled dumbass.

You and the other fair-weather pacifists rolled up your war protest banners and hid them under your bed when Obama become President. After that fine day, those wars were just fine with you, and all the new ones being proposed - Syria, Iran - fine as well.

You and the other "Look at me, I'm a war protester!" trendy f*cking posers are a disgrace.
 
2013-06-23 01:07:13 AM  

ISO15693: For millenia, soldiers have been haunted like this - but also for millenia, the threat of eternal consequences after death brought by cultural religious beliefs was enough to keep suicide down.

Now, though, the philosophy/religion of atheism is much more common, logically removing this concern for many, and this is simply a predictable result (regardless of any right or wrongness.)

There are those that refer to religion as a crutch, or simple comfort for the weak; an "opiate of the masses" etc.

Well good job, atheists. People like this no longer have that comfort.




I'd hardly call the threat of eternal punishment a "comfort". If the threat of never ending torture is the only thing keeping you on this mortal coil, I feel more sorry for you than I do for those who choose to end their lives.
 
2013-06-23 01:07:51 AM  

omeganuepsilon: Personally, I think our government is beyond all repair. We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it. We have a side show three ring circus.


Western governments are just an extension of the stock exchange. It's institutionalized graft, but as long as most people have a 60" TV, they won't complain.
 
2013-06-23 01:08:07 AM  

ladyfortuna: OgreMagi:  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".

Can I please get directions to the dream world you live in?

It's not that simple when you're dealing with the middle management that is military senior NCOs and a-hole officers. And I say this from experience and actually liking *some* of the ones I worked for.


I don't expect an order from the Commander In Chief to magically fix things.  But that kind of order in place would make it damn clear how things are supposed to be handled and would give protection to the people trying to help soldiers and who try to keep REMF from railroading "broken" soldiers out with bad discharge papers.

Basically, I expect the farking president to at least TRY to do something.
 
2013-06-23 01:08:20 AM  
Lucinda Matlock
by Edgar Lee Masters
I went to the dances at Chandlerville,
And played snap-out at Winchester.
One time we changed partners,
Driving home in the moonlight of middle June,
And then I found Davis.
We were married and lived together for seventy years,
Enjoying, working, raising the twelve children,
Eight of whom we lost
Ere I had reached the age of sixty.
I spun, I wove, I kept the house, I nursed the sick,
I made the garden, and for holiday
Rambled over the fields where sang the larks,
And by Spoon River gathering many a shell,
And many a flower and medicinal weed--
Shouting to the wooded hills, singing to the green valleys.
At ninety-six I had lived enough, that is all,
And passed to a sweet repose.
What is this I hear of sorrow and weariness,
Anger, discontent and drooping hopes?
Degenerate sons and daughters,
Life is too strong for you--
It takes life to love Life.
 
2013-06-23 01:08:20 AM  
ISO15693:

Well good job, atheists. People like this no longer have that comfort.

Slaves were kicked off plantations when slavery was made illegal, too. You should make a case about that, it makes just as much sense.
 
2013-06-23 01:10:12 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: [imgs.xkcd.com image 270x408]


I was really hoping to not see that.
 
2013-06-23 01:10:55 AM  
I'd normally spew partisan anger at such things, but the simple fact is that this horror is beyond party, beyond politics, beyond policy.

The worst part is that, in a week, most of us won't remember his name. He's just one of 22 today, and in a week, well, we'll have lost 153 more of them. We'll shrug our shoulders, remembering that it doesn't directly affect us, and go back to partisan bickering and "first world problems." We've been told, for the last decade now, that being angry about how our government has suddenly shifted from freedom to fascism is "un-American." Heck, we've ridiculed protestors who tried to stand up and push back against such things. Our own citizens hide in other countries because they revealed just a small fraction of what our government now considers routine and acceptable. Our own warfighters kill themselves because they can't deal with the mental and physical anguish earned by their service.

So, what would be the point of spewing partisan anger? It's just rearranging yet another deck chair on the Titanic.
 
2013-06-23 01:10:59 AM  
STRYPERS WINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along.

Oh totalllllly girlfriend.  That's EXACTLY whats happened.
 
2013-06-23 01:11:51 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: cabbyman: Get ready for Syria! DAMN You BUSH!

We're being heavily prepped for Syria and there's always the background drumbeat for Iran.


Heavily prepped my ass.  We're being lightly advised, at best.  At this rate our grandchildren will still be considering whether to taunt Syria a second time.
 
2013-06-23 01:13:22 AM  
STRYPERSWINE:

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.


The true answer, of course, is that it didn't matter. Bush/Cheney went to war because they wanted to pick a fight, and lawyering together some UN regulations that everyone else had forgotten about (because they were fundamentally irrelevent) was their chosen method. Anything to get your wargasm on, eh?

Meanwhile, we liberals were, of course, completely vindicated because it turned out that Saddam had long ago scrapped all his WMD weapons and programs. Destroyed and gone.

And of course, you cannot provide even a scrap of evidence that any of Iraq's WMDs have ever been in Syria. You're still failing the generational test.
 
2013-06-23 01:15:00 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

So do I. I remember your relentless war hawkishness. I'm also aware that only Bush and his fellow Repugs like you were concerned about a few irrelevent UN regulations dating from 1991 that no intelligent person would think would be worth dying for, let alone 4,000 Americans dying for (not to mention $2 billion down the drain).

Was the war worth your rabid hawkishness? Good return on investment? If you had to do it all over again, would you still rabidly demand ground invasion, like you did in 2003?

Because given that we (those of us who debated you in 2002 and 2003 before the invasion) were all telling you that 93% of Saddam's WMD's had been accounted for, any remaining would be well past their shelf-life, I can certainly say that I am 100% vindicated by the disgustingly useless and worthless war that followed, and war hawks like you failed the moral test of a generation. You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.


Saddam Enrages Bush With Full Compliance

WASHINGTON, DC-President Bush expressed frustration and anger Monday over a U.N. report stating that Iraqi president Saddam Hussein is now fully complying with weapons inspections. "Enough is enough," a determined Bush told reporters. "We are not fooled by Saddam's devious attempts to sway world opinion by doing everything the U.N. asked him to do. We will not be intimidated into backing down and, if we have any say in the matter, neither will Saddam." Bush added that any further Iraqi attempt to meet the demands of the U.N. or U.S. will be regarded as "an act of war."

It's funny because it's true. And stop with the false dichotomy. It isn't as though our choice was limited to invade or do nothing. Anyone who remembers that time can also remember that it was pretty clear that the 9/11 attack was being seized on to do something that had been planned on long in advance. If not for that terrorist attack, there is no way the American people could have been persuaded to invade Iraq.
 
2013-06-23 01:15:39 AM  

MaliFinn: Heavily prepped my ass. We're being lightly advised, at best. At this rate our grandchildren will still be considering whether to taunt Syria a second time.


Well, that's just like, your opinion man. I know I'm seeing a flood of MSM articles on the Glorious Liberation of Syria every day now. We're seeing policy changes out of the Executive, and Congress seems completely on board.
 
2013-06-23 01:16:06 AM  

omeganuepsilon: We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it.


I've been saying that for years.  The people who run for president are hand picked.  I doubt the real movers and shakers in Washington even care which party wins the election. It's all the same to them.

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.
 
2013-06-23 01:16:44 AM  
Hey, do any former insurgents or taliban or whatever suffer from ptsd?
 
2013-06-23 01:17:06 AM  

OgreMagi: ladyfortuna: OgreMagi:  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".

Can I please get directions to the dream world you live in?

It's not that simple when you're dealing with the middle management that is military senior NCOs and a-hole officers. And I say this from experience and actually liking *some* of the ones I worked for.

I don't expect an order from the Commander In Chief to magically fix things.  But that kind of order in place would make it damn clear how things are supposed to be handled and would give protection to the people trying to help soldiers and who try to keep REMF from railroading "broken" soldiers out with bad discharge papers.

Basically, I expect the farking president to at least TRY to do something.


The way social policies work in the military is that CIC or top brass give an order, it gets disseminated down the line, and then half or more of the people in charge ignore it because they either don't believe/agree that what it's addressing is a problem, or it costs too much, or etc etc etc. Why do you think all that legislation about taking commanders out of the sexual assault report-handling is doing so poorly? Because it's another thing that they don't want to deal with so they'll water it down until it has no teeth left, and then they sweep it under the rug.

I had exactly two NCOICs and one UA who cared enough to address things that were wrong and at least try to correct them (not just my issues, many other people in the unit), and even they were kind of selective about who they helped out if they didn't think something was a big deal.

Welcome to this man's Army...
 
2013-06-23 01:17:22 AM  

Slappajo: 1 Live for the day.

2 Never get married.

3 If somebody hits you go find a 2X4 and hit him back. He'll never hit you again.

4 Stay in school and get a good education.

5 Be good to your mother.

6 Be good to animals.

7 - Never let people know how really smart you are. Better to act dumb and be smart then to be dumb and act smart

8 - Get a job that you like. If you don't like your job change it until you find a job you do like.

9 The past is the past and you can't change it so just forget about it .

10 Always trust in yourself and you'll never let yourself down.

11 If you can't please yourself you can't please nobody else.

12 Always have a fast car so you can get away.

13 The best friend you can have is yourself.

14 If you are going to lie you better have a good memory.

15 Figure out what you believe in and believe in it for the rest of your life.

16 Always grin - this way people don't know what you are really thinking.

17 Pull your pants up.

18 Never go into the military because all you are doing is fighting for big corporations and politics.

19 Nothing is wrong with the world - it's just the people in it.

20 Always find the fun in things.


That's a fine list, although I dont think # 2 applies to women.
 
2013-06-23 01:17:52 AM  

OgreMagi: fusillade762: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

Please, do tell us who Saddam was shooting at?

Coalition planes enforcing the no-fly zone, for starters.


Oohhh, so that's why we invaded.
 
2013-06-23 01:18:09 AM  
As a side note, Joint Base Lewis-McChord is in my relative neck of the woods, and I have heard enough over the years from friends & acquaintances to spend the rest of my days angry. In the last few years, JBLM comes up far too often when you look for war crimes and atrocities committed by our folks, and even with the little that comes out of there, it's appalling. His situation isn't news here. He was just a bit more eloquent in expressing himself.
 
2013-06-23 01:18:14 AM  
OgreMagi:

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.

So vote Republican. We've heard this before, I think.
 
2013-06-23 01:18:39 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


1 out of 10.
 
2013-06-23 01:19:03 AM  

whatshisname: omeganuepsilon: Personally, I think our government is beyond all repair. We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it. We have a side show three ring circus.

Western governments are just an extension of the stock exchange. It's institutionalized graft, but as long as most people have a 60" TV, they won't complain.


Apathy.  That explains about half the problem.  Ignorance accounts for the rest.  I cant imagine an agreeable to solution to the problem.
 
2013-06-23 01:19:51 AM  

Corn_Fed: Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?

Not sure, but has close combat gotten more intense, or more gruesome with technology?



I think part of it is now that medical technology has improved over time. Meaning people are surviving injuries now that would have killed them in another era. Part of what we're seeing more of now might come from there being more of it to see.
 
2013-06-23 01:20:11 AM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: fusillade762: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

Please, do tell us who Saddam was shooting at?

Coalition planes enforcing the no-fly zone, for starters.

Oohhh, so that's why we invaded.


You could easily look up the list of something like 20 different reasons given for invading Iraq.  But that would probably be far too difficult for you to handle.

And I've not made it a secret that I was AGAINST invading Iraq.
 
2013-06-23 01:20:18 AM  

Corn_Fed: Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?

Not sure, but has close combat gotten more intense, or more gruesome with technology?


No. Not even close. The opposite in fact.
 
2013-06-23 01:20:30 AM  

Repo Man: STRYPERSWINE: Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

So do I. I remember your relentless war hawkishness. I'm also aware that only Bush and his fellow Repugs like you were concerned about a few irrelevent UN regulations dating from 1991 that no intelligent person would think would be worth dying for, let alone 4,000 Americans dying for (not to mention $2 billion down the drain).

Was the war worth your rabid hawkishness? Good return on investment? If you had to do it all over again, would you still rabidly demand ground invasion, like you did in 2003?

Because given that we (those of us who debated you in 2002 and 2003 before the invasion) were all telling you that 93% of Saddam's WMD's had been accounted for, any remaining would be well past their shelf-life, I can certainly say that I am 100% vindicated by the disgustingly useless and worthless war that followed, and war hawks like you failed the moral test of a generation. You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Saddam Enrages Bush With Full Compliance

WASHINGTO ...


By the end, it wasn't even satire. The UN Weapons Inspection team, headed by Hans Blix, WAS in Iraq, getting total, full and unfettered access to ALL requested sites. Finding nothing.

Bush ordered the inspectors out, so he could commence the invasion.
 
2013-06-23 01:21:00 AM  

Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE:

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

The true answer, of course, is that it didn't matter. Bush/Cheney went to war because they wanted to pick a fight, and lawyering together some UN regulations that everyone else had forgotten about (because they were fundamentally irrelevent) was their chosen method. Anything to get your wargasm on, eh?

Meanwhile, we liberals were, of course, completely vindicated because it turned out that Saddam had long ago scrapped all his WMD weapons and programs. Destroyed and gone.

And of course, you cannot provide even a scrap of evidence that any of Iraq's WMDs have ever been in Syria. You're still failing the generational test.


And this is a perfect example of the problem..."we republicans/we liberals"....Bush's fault...Obama's still doing it...blah, blah, blah...

From this man's standpoint, it happened.  He's the person that had to deal with the repercussions.  Neither of you.  You are to busy worrying about who to blame it on than what do we do help the people who actually experienced it.
 
2013-06-23 01:21:44 AM  

bwilson27: OgreMagi:

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.

So vote Republican. We've heard this before, I think.


I noticed you edited out the part where I said I would not vote for a democrat or republican.  Ass wipe.
 
2013-06-23 01:22:46 AM  

OgreMagi: bwilson27: OgreMagi:

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.

So vote Republican. We've heard this before, I think.

I noticed you edited out the part where I said I would not vote for a democrat or republican.  Ass wipe.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii i iiiiiiight.
 
2013-06-23 01:23:33 AM  

OgreMagi: 've been saying that for years. The people who run for president are hand picked. I doubt the real movers and shakers in Washington even care which party wins the election. It's all the same to them.

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat. Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins". There is no other guy.


Yeah, but what to do? It seems like the only possible way is a major culture change within an existing party - turn it inside out - rather than a born-to-lose 3rd party. It has happened several times in our history. The south used to be exclusively populated with Democrats (dixiecrats) until the party culture no longer suited them, and they built the 'moral majority' into the Republican party. The Tea Party was a hint of how that can happen again. OWS may have been another.
 
2013-06-23 01:23:43 AM  

MurphyMurphy: You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.


To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them.

I've been trying to get through to people about this shiat for some time now but no one wants to listen. I'm certainly not alone.

In fact, I think just a week ago I got lambasted by for pointing out I know men that have gone through this very thing and carry tortured souls because of it.

Look this HARD IN THE FARKING FACE. This is what the stars and stripes will be known for by future generations if we can't learn to be honest with ourselves and face the realities we are causing across the world while we silently lie to ourselves.

/I feel sorry for this man
//I feel partly responsible too, we all should


You need to let it go.

Every war has atrocities. That's what war is. You don't get through a war without both sides committing horrific acts against each other. It flows from the first principle of war - to kill people.

That is why many, many people protested against the Iraq war. Aside from the lunatics, the free mumia dredlock douchebags, there were actually people who knew all this was going to happen. Who knew that atrocities would come, and suicide and death would come, because if you study war, that's what always comes.

Everyone knows that the "Stars and Stripes" commits atrocities just like every other army has committed atrocities, in the history of war. Thats what war is, an atrocity. It is a break down of every social norm and all the rules of civilization that keep ordinary life going. War is the death of children and innocents. It always has been, and it always will be.

People are lying to themsleves. But they always lie to themselves. Sgt Calley of the Vietnam war didn't admit what he had done for over 30 years. Thirty Years. Are you going to spend your life waiting for this sort of thing to happen? Lying about atrocities is as much a part of war as violence.

People have tortured souls. Well, that's what war does. It's not like you can have a war without having tortured souls.

In summation, I just don't think you can control other people. The only thing you can do is to try to stop a war before it starts. After it starts, you just have to ride it out to the logical conclusion. And that conclusion has always been, and always will be, suicides, tortured souls, shattered lives, atrocities, lies, coverups, and death. That's what war is. It's too late to stop it. We just have to wait a generation for it's damage to play out and be over.


Sure we can analyze it, write about it, bring the truth out, uncover hidden things. But you can't force people to think, or to notice, or to agree with you.
 
2013-06-23 01:24:03 AM  

Corn_Fed: Repo Man: STRYPERSWINE: Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

So do I. I remember your relentless war hawkishness. I'm also aware that only Bush and his fellow Repugs like you were concerned about a few irrelevent UN regulations dating from 1991 that no intelligent person would think would be worth dying for, let alone 4,000 Americans dying for (not to mention $2 billion down the drain).

Was the war worth your rabid hawkishness? Good return on investment? If you had to do it all over again, would you still rabidly demand ground invasion, like you did in 2003?

Because given that we (those of us who debated you in 2002 and 2003 before the invasion) were all telling you that 93% of Saddam's WMD's had been accounted for, any remaining would be well past their shelf-life, I can certainly say that I am 100% vindicated by the disgustingly useless and worthless war that followed, and war hawks like you failed the moral test of a generation. You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Saddam Enrages Bush With Full Compliance

WASHING ...


Hans Blix was a drunk and a pedophile.  He was probably compromised.
 
2013-06-23 01:24:40 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


FOAD
 
2013-06-23 01:24:47 AM  

Cyno01: What the hell has changed?


I think there are a lot of possible factors, barring those requiring tinfoil...here are three pretty big aspects that come to mind

A. Society is a lot more liberal now, and so is training(the mental side).  It is a lot less harsh physically too of course, but that has an effect mentally too.  In effect we get:  Less strict minded recruits that are not trained to be anywhere near as disciplined.  Kind of a double whammy.

B. the environment over there.  It's the desert:
1. Barren and boring enough to drive people crazy just because.
2. Factor in heat that is enough to cause brain damage.
3. Heat again.  We can only acclimate so far from what we've evolved to.  Eskimo's thrive up north, and people who've been in the desert for thousands of years seem to manage.  But plop an average european down in the desert and he's going to have a constant struggle.

C. I'll return to our more modern liberal political climate.
We simply don't support our troops like we used to.  Hell, read this thread.  People vilify people just for joining up, say that they're actually damaging our country.  Now, soldiers are kind of kept out of the loop, you never want your troops thinking about why they're there, that's above their paygrade and can cause functional problems.  But it does seep through, military papers more and more read like obvious propaganda so you know something is up....and of course, letters from home, care packages with newspapers and magazines chock full of demoralizing material...from our own people.  The bit of packaged news and sparse internet they do get access to...all of it a resounding, "you are ignorant, you are stupid, you are to blame"
 
2013-06-23 01:26:28 AM  

Slappajo: Corn_Fed: STRYPERSWINE:

First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?

The answer is no, of course. Removing hindsight from the equation, knowing what we knew then, we could not allow that situation to continue. In a post-9/11 world, we could not allow an enemy that we already defeated to not account for the weapons that he was supposed to have destroyed and provided proof of their destruction. We gave him several opportunities and he chose poorly each time. SADDAM did that. And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

The true answer, of course, is that it didn't matter. Bush/Cheney went to war because they wanted to pick a fight, and lawyering together some UN regulations that everyone else had forgotten about (because they were fundamentally irrelevent) was their chosen method. Anything to get your wargasm on, eh?

Meanwhile, we liberals were, of course, completely vindicated because it turned out that Saddam had long ago scrapped all his WMD weapons and programs. Destroyed and gone.

And of course, you cannot provide even a scrap of evidence that any of Iraq's WMDs have ever been in Syria. You're still failing the generational test.

And this is a perfect example of the problem..."we republicans/we liberals"....Bush's fault...Obama's still doing it...blah, blah, blah...

From this man's standpoint, it happened.  He's the person that had to deal with the repercussions.  Neither of you.  You are to busy worrying about who to blame it on than what do we do help the people who actually experienced it.


I can't do anything for this man, or any of the others who will commit suicide in the days/weeks to come. It's already happened--their lives have been shattered because of the decision to go to war. These decisions have terrible consequences. Should we just ignore how it happened, especially when how it happened is so clear that it's staring us in the face? Ignoring it ensures it will happen again and again in the future.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:15 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: My cousin signed up for the Army at the last possible age they will take you. Left a huge salary on the table and his wife and infant daughter. Ended up in OCS, got his butter bars (2nd Lt) and sent to Afghanistan then later Iraq. Multiple tours. He was not Infantry but some kind of logistics with trucking. No one knows what happened - he's not talking - but his convoy got hit with an IED and he ended up with a bronze star and purple heart. We know no details as he no longer communicates with any of us or his wife and kid. Something is bad wrong, and stories like this, they just hit home.


My cousin got blown out the turret on a hummer when they got hit by an IED. His backplate absorbed most of the impact when he landed on his back. He went back and pulled his buddies out. He was supposed to get the bronze star but they kept putting it off and putting it off. Eventually they basically told him the only way he would get it is if he reenlisted. He told them to fark off.
 
2013-06-23 01:27:55 AM  

Corn_Fed: Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?

Not sure, but has close combat gotten more intense, or more gruesome with technology?


Doubt it, fewer bayonets, more long range ordinance and drone strikes? I mean its not like it sucks worse to see your buddy get blown apart by an insurgent IED than a nazi potato masher,  but statistically, waaaaaay more soldiers in WWII saw their buddies get blown up, the casualties on our side for the current wars are minuscule compared to past conflicts. Quick figures;

WWII, 16 million US troops deployed, 291,557 combat deaths at a rate of 416 a day;
Korea, 5.7mil deployed, 33,686 combat deaths, 45 a day;
Vietnam, 2.7mil deployed, 47,424 combat deaths at 11 a day.
Current wars? 2.5 million US troops deployed, 5,281 combat deaths at a rate of 1.57  a day.

Is it because its an all volunteer army now? Why does that make soldiers less able to deal? Is it something else?

Its just crazy to image how different things used to be, nowadays a soldier dies, he makes the front page of his hometown newspaper, in WWII we lost more men in 2 weeks than we have the entire war on terror.
 
2013-06-23 01:28:04 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: OgreMagi: 've been saying that for years. The people who run for president are hand picked. I doubt the real movers and shakers in Washington even care which party wins the election. It's all the same to them.

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat. Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins". There is no other guy.

Yeah, but what to do? It seems like the only possible way is a major culture change within an existing party - turn it inside out - rather than a born-to-lose 3rd party. It has happened several times in our history. The south used to be exclusively populated with Democrats (dixiecrats) until the party culture no longer suited them, and they built the 'moral majority' into the Republican party. The Tea Party was a hint of how that can happen again. OWS may have been another.


I think a major cultural and party change is eminent.  A lot of democrats are extremely upset with Obama.  Too many broken promises.  That could push a lot to other parties (probably the Green).  It doesn't need to be enough votes to get a third party win.  It just needs to be percentage that is significant enough to get people's attention.

Third party votes combined have come to about 1% of the vote in presidential elections.  Get that to 5% or 10% and we might actually see some change, or at least a few promises kept.
 
2013-06-23 01:28:32 AM  
OgreMagi:

Hans Blix was a drunk and a pedophile.  He was probably compromised.

Spoken like a True Rovian.
 
2013-06-23 01:28:42 AM  

OgreMagi: bwilson27: OgreMagi:

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.

So vote Republican. We've heard this before, I think.

I noticed you edited out the part where I said I would not vote for a democrat or republican.  Ass wipe.


So vote Bull Moose?
Seriously, how did he miss that?
 
2013-06-23 01:28:59 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?



The big change is our society and that we talk about it. The WW2 veterans had the same issues however the societal norm was to internalize and not talk about it, leading to the heavy smoking/heavy drinking that was the norm. Also the larger scale involvement of the population made it more easier to relate knowing that everyone is going through the similar stresses and aren't talking about it either.

Everyone thought that we would not make the same mistake that we did with the Vietnam veterans, many more organizations are in place to show support for the armed forces, you see more flags and yellow ribbons... but apparently that wasn't the problem.

/was still in high school when Iraq kicked off.
 
2013-06-23 01:30:10 AM  

studs up: OgreMagi: bwilson27: OgreMagi:

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.

So vote Republican. We've heard this before, I think.

I noticed you edited out the part where I said I would not vote for a democrat or republican.  Ass wipe.

So vote Bull Moose?
Seriously, how did he miss that?


I'm going to guess that he does a lot of drugs.  Or was dropped on his head a lot when he was a baby.
 
2013-06-23 01:31:27 AM  
bwilson27:

Slaves were kicked off plantations when slavery was made illegal, too. You should make a case about that, it makes just as much sense.

mtylerjr.smallbizdepot.com
 
2013-06-23 01:32:08 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


My Uncle is pushing 90.  While I sympathize with the soldier who wrote this letter, during the Battle of the Bulge my Uncle experienced 10x worse than anything any soldier sees today.  He still wakes up in the middle of the night screaming.  His buddies were no different.  I just think this generation is much more fragile than his.  In his time, people died at home, not in hospitals.  Your meat didn't come in neatly wrapped plastic.  People and horses were routinely killed by trains on public streets.  Everything today is sterile and the unpleasantries of life are well hidden from view.
 
2013-06-23 01:33:27 AM  

OgreMagi: Hans Blix was a drunk and a pedophile.  He was probably compromised.


That never stopped Reagan, and look how he's revered today.
 
2013-06-23 01:33:59 AM  

flamingboard: My cousin got blown out the turret on a hummer when they got hit by an IED. His backplate absorbed most of the impact when he landed on his back. He went back and pulled his buddies out. He was supposed to get the bronze star but they kept putting it off and putting it off. Eventually they basically told him the only way he would get it is if he reenlisted. He told them to fark off.


That's a raw deal. His actions speak for themselves and that is very much a bronze star type action. Holding that over his head for re-enlistment is bullsh*t.
 
2013-06-23 01:34:18 AM  

error 303: Man, that sucks. I don't really know what to say. On the one hand we're really failing a lot of our soldiers who need us, but a part of me still feels that suicide is (99.999% of the time) not the answer. And I don't want to try to say that in a cheesy, after school special, "It gets better" sort of way or anything... it's just awful, awful awful for everyone involved.


Of course it isn't the answer but when it seems there is no other way out from the pain and misery it is understandable that it becomes the only answer available. We are failing our service members and it's a crime. Think about all the men and women who could of done more with their lives than be a participant in a needless war.


I am talking not only about Iraq but Afghanistan. 3000 plus civilians died during 9/11. The death count for service members who were in Iraq/Afghanistan alone not counting suicide is nearly double.


Then there are all the civilians killed. Though they don't matter as much as the deaths of our civilians because they're brown? Fark that shiat.
 
2013-06-23 01:35:14 AM  
Sucks that he went out like he did, but he obviously wasn't right in the head.
 
2013-06-23 01:35:19 AM  

omeganuepsilon: Cyno01: What the hell has changed?

I think there are a lot of possible factors, barring those requiring tinfoil...here are three pretty big aspects that come to mind

A. Society is a lot more liberal now, and so is training(the mental side).  It is a lot less harsh physically too of course, but that has an effect mentally too.  In effect we get:  Less strict minded recruits that are not trained to be anywhere near as disciplined.  Kind of a double whammy.

B. the environment over there.  It's the desert:
1. Barren and boring enough to drive people crazy just because.
2. Factor in heat that is enough to cause brain damage.
3. Heat again.  We can only acclimate so far from what we've evolved to.  Eskimo's thrive up north, and people who've been in the desert for thousands of years seem to manage.  But plop an average european down in the desert and he's going to have a constant struggle.

C. I'll return to our more modern liberal political climate.
We simply don't support our troops like we used to.  Hell, read this thread.  People vilify people just for joining up, say that they're actually damaging our country.  Now, soldiers are kind of kept out of the loop, you never want your troops thinking about why they're there, that's above their paygrade and can cause functional problems.  But it does seep through, military papers more and more read like obvious propaganda so you know something is up....and of course, letters from home, care packages with newspapers and magazines chock full of demoralizing material...from our own people.  The bit of packaged news and sparse internet they do get access to...all of it a resounding, "you are ignorant, you are stupid, you are to blame"


Uh, maybe a few trolls on the internet sure, but the general public? Nobodys spitting on troops returning from the middle east, go to a restaurant in uniform nowadays and you get 10 people offering to pay for your meal. The war in Iraq isnt any more just than Vietnam was, but holy shiat do people bend over backwards for vets nowadays compared to then. Back then everybody was happy to blame drafted soldiers, nowadays most folks seem to reserve blame for any unpleasantness for the leaders of our now volunteer army.
 
2013-06-23 01:35:49 AM  
Corn_Fed:

I can't do anything for this man, or any of the others who will commit suicide in the days/weeks to come. It's already happened--their lives have been shattered because of the decision to go to war. These decisions have terrible consequences. Should we just ignore how it happened, especially when how it happene ...

No, but getting into a pissing contest about which party started this particular one isn't figuring out how it happened.  It's just one side trying to blame it on the other.

It goes far beyond political parties.  But that's what everyone of these threads devolve into.
 
2013-06-23 01:36:11 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


I spent 5 minutes in the med school building looking for a water fountain, so I'm qualified to give an opinion here...

I think that today the numbers are up for 3 reasons - better diagnostics, increased reporting, and air travel.

Air travel?  Yup.  WW2 and parts of Korea, when you finally got sent home you spent weeks on board a ship with thousands of guys who had just come from being thru the same hellish shiat you went thru.  Gave you time to calm down, decompress, talk about it some wtih people that were there.  But air travel, and now faster cheaper air travel, means that someone getting shot at this morning could be home in under 48 hours.  No time to decompress, no time to talk, just too quick of a transition.

I think combat zone vets should get the same healthcare package the congress critters and senators do.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:10 AM  
So here's where I poke the sleeping giant:

I truly, truly think assisted suicide should be legalized, and perhaps funded.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:10 AM  

SnipDaddyDad: Lucinda Matlock
by Edgar Lee Masters
I went to the dances at Chandlerville,
And played snap-out at Winchester.
One time we changed partners,
Driving home in the moonlight of middle June,
And then I found Davis.
We were married and lived together for seventy years,
Enjoying, working, raising the twelve children,
Eight of whom we lost
Ere I had reached the age of sixty.
I spun, I wove, I kept the house, I nursed the sick,
I made the garden, and for holiday
Rambled over the fields where sang the larks,
And by Spoon River gathering many a shell,
And many a flower and medicinal weed--
Shouting to the wooded hills, singing to the green valleys.
At ninety-six I had lived enough, that is all,
And passed to a sweet repose.
What is this I hear of sorrow and weariness,
Anger, discontent and drooping hopes?
Degenerate sons and daughters,
Life is too strong for you--
It takes life to love Life.


Oddly, I was just thinking of Spoon River, although I think given the prevailing feeling in this thread the following is more appropriate:

"Knowlt Hoheimer"

I was the first fruits of the Battle of Missionary Ridge
When I felt that bullet enter my heart
I wished I had staid at home and gone to jail
For stealing the hogs of Curl Trenary,
Instead of running away and joining the army.
Rather a thousand times the country jail
That to lie under this marble figure with wings,
And this granite pedestal
Bearing the words "Pro patria."
What do they mean, anyway?
 
2013-06-23 01:43:29 AM  
Hans Blix is not a pedophile. Idiot boy is likely thinking of Scott Ritter. However, while he has been convicted of trying to seduce a minor, he'd only be considered a pedophile by the incorrect popular usage of the word. No fifteen year old is prepubescent. Obviously, he shouldn't have been chasing them, and he deserved the sentence he got. But that does not affect his credibility about Iraqi weapons.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:54 AM  

bwilson27: STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.

Fark you. Fark you right in the ass. Fark you. Fark you again, asswipe. Fark you.


you seem a bit upset there.
 
2013-06-23 01:47:56 AM  

Slappajo: Corn_Fed:

I can't do anything for this man, or any of the others who will commit suicide in the days/weeks to come. It's already happened--their lives have been shattered because of the decision to go to war. These decisions have terrible consequences. Should we just ignore how it happened, especially when how it happene ...

No, but getting into a pissing contest about which party started this particular one isn't figuring out how it happened.  It's just one side trying to blame it on the other.

It goes far beyond political parties.  But that's what everyone of these threads devolve into.


Wrong wrong wrong. Facts are not meaningless. The Iraq War had a concrete, specific cause.

WWII? Who started it? Germany or America?

Who cares, right? I mean, both sides were equally bad, right?
 
2013-06-23 01:48:20 AM  

OgreMagi: omeganuepsilon: We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it.

I've been saying that for years.  The people who run for president are hand picked.  I doubt the real movers and shakers in Washington even care which party wins the election. It's all the same to them.

Years ago I swore to never again vote for a republican or a democrat.  Since I don't see any difference between the two, it doesn't matter if "the other guy wins".  There is no other guy.


Pretty much.  Some people write it off as a conspiracy theory, but it's not really.  You don't need a man behind the curtain, the beast is self aware.   The movers and shakers, as it were, form a sort of AI between them.  Sure, the players change, but the game doesn't, not really.  A lot of perks, a lot of payoffs, a lot of favors traded.  That's how our government works now.

Frederick: whatshisname: omeganuepsilon: Personally, I think our government is beyond all repair. We call it a democracy and we pretend to have two parties, but we really don't have either, not when you get down to it. We have a side show three ring circus.

Western governments are just an extension of the stock exchange. It's institutionalized graft, but as long as most people have a 60" TV, they won't complain.

Apathy.  That explains about half the problem.  Ignorance accounts for the rest.  I can't imagine an agreeable to solution to the problem.


I wouldn't say 50/50.  There's room for a couple of sub categories:

A lot of people want to get involved but just can't.  Got to work, got to pay taxes. "They"(heh) have a bit of a strangle hold there.  When there is free time, we need our Angry Birds and WoW just to not go batshiat crazy, we need the stress relief.  Maybe it's apathy to an extent, but it's a natural human thing to need an out, need some time alone, some time to just forget, some time to let go and relax.  Some people have precious little of that.

A lot of people want to, but see that it's utterly futile, at least in the numbers of like minded people, a lone voice.  Sure, we find a few on the internet, but what can a few do?  Several years back, it was a feeling of impending disenfranchisement, now it has come to fruition.  We are practically impotent.
What can we do, especially if we think its going to take some kind of revolution to get any meaningful change done?  Will people so spoiled by a comfortable life make one iota of a sacrifice?

I'm sure a form of revolution will come in time, just not any time soon.  We'll all probably be dead and gone before people, by and large, are motivated enough to do something.  Our kids will learn eventually, that freedom isn't free, it will cost blood sweat and tears.  Always has, always will.
 
2013-06-23 01:48:32 AM  

voodoomedic: So here's where I poke the sleeping giant:

I truly, truly think assisted suicide should be legalized, and perhaps funded.


I agree wholeheartedly, but i dont think PTSD is an acceptable reason for suicide compared to chronic terminal illness, i mean you cant manage pancreatic cancer with therapy,
 
2013-06-23 01:49:15 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.


Protip: When they've made it that far, they could give fark-all about your help unless you're right there in the heat of it.
 
2013-06-23 01:50:29 AM  

Cyno01: I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Combat itself got a lot less deadly.  You have to remember that there were many units that were effectively destroyed during WWII - 90% and up casualty rates.  Today, it's under 1% for comparable periods.

Body armor, helmets, IFAKS that contain tourniquets, extensive first aid training for EVERY soldier, extensive use of armored vehicles, etc...  It's HARD to kill a US Soldier.  The most common method today is the IED.  Soldiers aren't dying due to bleeding out anywhere near as often anymore.  They have effective protection systems from fragmentation. So they aren't dying.  However, they're not incredibly more protected against injury, especially TBI from the blast waves that don't kill them because they're wearing enough armor to prevent the fragments from killing them.  So an explosion that would have killed a WWII soldier was less fatal for Korean war ones, Vietnam brought even better survival rates as medical and protective tech increased, with a dramatic increase from Vietnam to the first gulf war, and we've only gotten better since.

But while those soldiers survive, they do not survive uninjured.  Traumatic Brain Injury is new.  And we're still wrapping our heads around it.

Another theory is actually related to transportation methods, along with the treatment when they got home.  WWII?  Most people got back via troop transport.  That's a month with their fellow soldiers, locked in a tin can, away from combat.  It's a period of time to decompress before reintegrating with civilian society, where they were hailed as heroes.  It's a uniquely American theory, of course.  You'd have to examine fighters who didn't get that decompression - British, for example.  Troop transports were still common for Korea, but by Vietnam they were coming back by plane, and coming back to derision and abuse.  That has to have had a bad effect.

401kman: The military has gotten better at training killers.  They shoot faster and more often by objectifying those that are their targets.


Have you ever seen WWII propaganda?  We haven't gotten that much better at objectifying.

/Some days I think we deliberately stay involved in conflicts in order to avoid losing the institutional knowledge in war/conflict we've built up ever so painfully ever since WWII.
 
2013-06-23 01:50:55 AM  

FormlessOne: As a side note, Joint Base Lewis-McChord is in my relative neck of the woods, and I have heard enough over the years from friends & acquaintances to spend the rest of my days angry. In the last few years, JBLM comes up far too often when you look for war crimes and atrocities committed by our folks, and even with the little that comes out of there, it's appalling. His situation isn't news here. He was just a bit more eloquent in expressing himself.


Yeah. On the other side of things my roommate is a soldier at JBLM and my brother works at JBLM too. Though they're both Signal Corps so it's understandable that they went through less shiat. Though I know my brother has lost friends who became a casualty of the war. Thankfully he has been stateside since 2011,its nice not having to worry if that was his chopper that went down in Afghanistan.
 
2013-06-23 01:51:57 AM  

JoanHaus: Tell you one thing: if you know ANYONE who is foolish enough to consider voluntarily signing up for military service, slap it the hell out of them. Disadvantaged kids on the streets who are choosing between gang life, and the military? Seriously, choose the gangs. You're dead, either way, but you've got better odds on the street. Make money, get out of the game while you can, move away.


One of the dumbest things I've read all day.
 
2013-06-23 01:53:11 AM  

Corn_Fed: Slappajo: Corn_Fed:

I can't do anything for this man, or any of the others who will commit suicide in the days/weeks to come. It's already happened--their lives have been shattered because of the decision to go to war. These decisions have terrible consequences. Should we just ignore how it happened, especially when how it happene ...

No, but getting into a pissing contest about which party started this particular one isn't figuring out how it happened.  It's just one side trying to blame it on the other.

It goes far beyond political parties.  But that's what everyone of these threads devolve into.

Wrong wrong wrong. Facts are not meaningless. The Iraq War had a concrete, specific cause.

WWII? Who started it? Germany or America?

Who cares, right? I mean, both sides were equally bad, right?


So now two parties w/in the same country are the same as two countries going to war?  Got it.
 
2013-06-23 01:55:35 AM  
Slappajo:
So now two parties w/in the same country are the same as two countries going to war?  Got it.

Whoooosh. I believe his point was that FACTS are relevant.
 
2013-06-23 01:55:54 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


After WWII, we had a conscious goal about moving forward after fighting. This was where the GI bill came in, giving our soldiers to opportunity to go to school, get an education and skills necessary for a life beyond the military. This was why our economy was so good in the immediate years after WWII. After the Vietnam War, we were so desperate to move on that we scarcely gave any thought to the soldiers who served us.
 
2013-06-23 01:56:37 AM  
And may all you flag waving yellow ribbon farg republicans eat shiat and die. YOU are the true enemy of this nation. Thanks for your oil wars, ya farking homos.
 
2013-06-23 01:57:03 AM  

Corn_Fed: WWII? Who started it? Germany or America?


Germany, when they bombed Pearl Harbor. Are you implying that America was somehow responsible for Germany bombing Pearl Harbor?
 
2013-06-23 01:58:24 AM  

omeganuepsilon: I'm sure a form of revolution will come in time, just not any time soon.  We'll all probably be dead and gone before people, by and large, are motivated enough to do something.  Our kids will learn eventually, that freedom isn't free, it will cost blood sweat and tears.  Always has, always will.


And it won't be the jingoistic bullshiat freedom that's pushed on Americans as if there were some unique quality of America that made its Freedom more valuable than the freedom experienced in other places around the world. It will be more akin to the freedom earned by the Founding Fathers who fought and died throwing off the shackles of the oppressive British government some 230 years ago.

Freedom Isn't Free isn't about killing and dying in some overseas desert. It's about being constantly vigilant against letting our freedoms get taken away. Right now, the person most exemplified by this is Edward Snowden.
 
2013-06-23 01:58:29 AM  

Slappajo: Corn_Fed: Slappajo: Corn_Fed:

I can't do anything for this man, or any of the others who will commit suicide in the days/weeks to come. It's already happened--their lives have been shattered because of the decision to go to war. These decisions have terrible consequences. Should we just ignore how it happened, especially when how it happene ...

No, but getting into a pissing contest about which party started this particular one isn't figuring out how it happened.  It's just one side trying to blame it on the other.

It goes far beyond political parties.  But that's what everyone of these threads devolve into.

Wrong wrong wrong. Facts are not meaningless. The Iraq War had a concrete, specific cause.

WWII? Who started it? Germany or America?

Who cares, right? I mean, both sides were equally bad, right?

So now two parties w/in the same country are the same as two countries going to war?  Got it.


It wouldn't matter, if anyone had a shred of evidence that Democrats had clamored for war in Iraq, prior to Bush selling it upon imminent national doom.

Facts matter. History matters. My analogy absolutely stands.
 
2013-06-23 01:58:29 AM  

JerkyMeat: And may all you flag waving yellow ribbon farg republicans eat shiat and die. YOU are the true enemy of this nation. Thanks for your oil wars, ya farking homos.


Undeniable TRUTH.
 
2013-06-23 01:59:00 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: This was why our economy was so good in the immediate years after WWII.


I'd have to disagree with you there.  While educating our soldiers when they returned was a damn good thing, our economy was so strong because we were just about the only country in the world with an intact manufacturing infrastructure.  Europe had been bombed back to the 19th century and Asia hadn't even gotten started in becoming the manufacturing giant they are today.  So for the entire world, if you wanted something that wasn't hand made, you bought American.
 
2013-06-23 02:01:02 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Corn_Fed: WWII? Who started it? Germany or America?

Germany, when they bombed Pearl Harbor. Are you implying that America was somehow responsible for Germany bombing Pearl Harbor?


But Germany was justified, because we had dropped the atom bomb on Versailles.
 
2013-06-23 02:01:43 AM  

decora: You need to let it go.


Hey, fark you.
 
2013-06-23 02:02:54 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 02:04:36 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.


Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".
IF there are WMD from Iraq in Syria, it's directly attributable to Dubya, Cheney and the NeoCon boy's actions.
Keep moving the goal posts, loser, the blood is forever on your hands until you repent and you don't strike me as the type to admit your errors.
 
2013-06-23 02:07:43 AM  
I blame America's gun culture. Or, in my opinion, sub-culture.

"Guns are so cool!!" its adherents say. "If you think it's fun to shoot a deer or rabbit, think HOW MUCH FUNNER it would be to shoot an actual human enemy of our beloved 2nd Amendment!"


R.I.P., Daniel Somers. Thank you.
 
2013-06-23 02:09:53 AM  

JerkyMeat: And may all you flag waving yellow ribbon farg republicans eat shiat and die. YOU are the true enemy of this nation. Thanks for your oil wars, ya farking homos.


Instead we have great liberal patriots such as yourself. When Obama lied to you about ending illegal wiretapping, stopping foreign wars, and everything else, what did you do? You voted for him again like the suckers you are, the suckers he knew you to be. And now you're hiding under your bed and p*ssing down your pant leg rather than standing up and calling him out for his crimes. Thanks again for Obama, you f*cking fools.
 
2013-06-23 02:09:59 AM  

Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".


Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"
 
2013-06-23 02:10:41 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: JerkyMeat: And may all you flag waving yellow ribbon farg republicans eat shiat and die. YOU are the true enemy of this nation. Thanks for your oil wars, ya farking homos.

Instead we have great liberal patriots such as yourself. When Obama lied to you about ending illegal wiretapping, stopping foreign wars, and everything else, what did you do? You voted for him again like the suckers you are, the suckers he knew you to be. And now you're hiding under your bed and p*ssing down your pant leg rather than standing up and calling him out for his crimes. Thanks again for Obama, you f*cking fools.



Eat a dick.
 
2013-06-23 02:11:42 AM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I blame America's gun culture. Or, in my opinion, sub-culture.

"Guns are so cool!!" its adherents say. "If you think it's fun to shoot a deer or rabbit, think HOW MUCH FUNNER it would be to shoot an actual human enemy of our beloved 2nd Amendment!"


R.I.P., Daniel Somers. Thank you.


I blame women. They love a man in uniform.
 
2013-06-23 02:12:34 AM  

Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...


Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.
 
2013-06-23 02:14:08 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.


You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!
 
2013-06-23 02:14:31 AM  
• There seems to be a link between concussions and depression. One example is Junior Seau.

• 400 missions as a turret gunner. This man was a soldier. People hooked on the adrenaline who come back to civilian life not infrequently suffer a "post-combat hangover."

Combine the two points above and you have a demon.

Then, give it issues on which it can focus and feed itself, and it becomes an entrenched demon.

Rest easy Daniel Somers, you fought hard and well. Hopefully, going forward, your eloquent and wrenching letter will bring more attention to the tragedy of the 22-a-day platoon.
 
2013-06-23 02:14:53 AM  

the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way


I was about to say Fark you, well played sir.
 
2013-06-23 02:14:59 AM  

bwilson27: Eat a dick.


Spoken like a true liberal patriot. Sitting on his ass, casting blame on others, terrified of criticism, a simple-minded dumbass.
 
2013-06-23 02:15:19 AM  

bwilson27: You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!


When has the USA ever gone to a peaceful country and started a war?
 
2013-06-23 02:16:18 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: bwilson27: Eat a dick.

Spoken like a true liberal patriot. Sitting on his ass, casting blame on others, terrified of criticism, a simple-minded dumbass.


Spoken like a true American Brave Hero with a gun in his lap and a dick in his mouth.
 
2013-06-23 02:17:14 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: bwilson27: You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!

When has the USA ever gone to a peaceful country and started a war?


You want to defend your bullshiat in a thread about a man who killed himself because of the kind of shiat you spew? Really?
 
2013-06-23 02:17:43 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: whatshisname: STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.

You must be drunk

I just remember what happened.  It wasn't that long ago.


I remember what happened. Bush threatened to invade if Saddam didn't flee the country. I don't recall Saddam hitting US targets before the US sent in the Humvees and crossed the borders.
 
2013-06-23 02:18:13 AM  

OgreMagi: Bith Set Me Up: This was why our economy was so good in the immediate years after WWII.

I'd have to disagree with you there.  While educating our soldiers when they returned was a damn good thing, our economy was so strong because we were just about the only country in the world with an intact manufacturing infrastructure.  Europe had been bombed back to the 19th century and Asia hadn't even gotten started in becoming the manufacturing giant they are today.  So for the entire world, if you wanted something that wasn't hand made, you bought American.


And a massive portion of our labor force was killed in the war without harming our infrastructure, so we were able to take in a massive influx of fresh immigrants from Europe and offer them all decent factory jobs. We didn't have soldiers coming back from the war to an economy that had more available labor than available jobs.
 
2013-06-23 02:18:19 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: bwilson27: You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!

When has the USA ever gone to a peaceful country and started a war?


From who's point of view?  The Americans or the foreigners?
 
2013-06-23 02:19:13 AM  

bwilson27: You want to defend your bullshiat in a thread about a man who killed himself because of the kind of shiat you spew? Really?


What?
 
2013-06-23 02:19:21 AM  

JungleBoogie: • There seems to be a link between concussions and depression. One example is Junior Seau.

• 400 missions as a turret gunner. This man was a soldier. People hooked on the adrenaline who come back to civilian life not infrequently suffer a "post-combat hangover."

Combine the two points above and you have a demon.

Then, give it issues on which it can focus and feed itself, and it becomes an entrenched demon.

Rest easy Daniel Somers, you fought hard and well. Hopefully, going forward, your eloquent and wrenching letter will bring more attention to the tragedy of the 22-a-day platoon.


There seems to be a link between concussions and insanity too. Chris Benoit, for example.
 
2013-06-23 02:19:33 AM  
Guys, this isn't cross-posted in the politics tab.
 
2013-06-23 02:20:20 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: bwilson27: You want to defend your bullshiat in a thread about a man who killed himself because of the kind of shiat you spew? Really?

What?


That's what I thought.
 
2013-06-23 02:20:43 AM  

bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"


wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,
 
2013-06-23 02:21:59 AM  

bwilson27: Spoken like a true American Brave Hero with a gun in his lap and a dick in his mouth.


Spoken like a typical liberal who likes Obama to pump his ass every 4 years. Does he at least give you a kiss first? It's traditional in some countries, not sure about Kenya.
 
2013-06-23 02:22:00 AM  

bwilson27: That's what I thought.


You didn't think about much, including reading the Boobies in the thread.
 
2013-06-23 02:23:40 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"

wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,


Um, the coloring and name calling was a result of the CRAP the YOU type. Nothing else. 
But you're right... I should just change your description to just regular TROLL.
 
2013-06-23 02:24:42 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: bwilson27: Spoken like a true American Brave Hero with a gun in his lap and a dick in his mouth.

Spoken like a typical liberal who likes Obama to pump his ass every 4 years. Does he at least give you a kiss first? It's traditional in some countries, not sure about Kenya.


PLONK.
 
2013-06-23 02:25:19 AM  
IMABIGMORAN: Obama promised in 2008 to have all combat brigades out of Iraq in 16 months.

That was obviously an absurd campaign promise pipe dream and there's no way he could have achieved such a thing once he took office.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38744453/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/ la st-full-us-combat-brigade-leaves-iraq/#.UcaTefmqnHQ

It took 19 whole months to do that.
 
2013-06-23 02:26:05 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: There seems to be a link between concussions and insanity too. Chris Benoit, for example.


It seems to be more like depression, other mood changes, Alzheimer's like symptoms, and possible delusions. Insanity is not a precise word.
 
2013-06-23 02:26:21 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"

wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,


Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on.  The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days.  The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building.  Then Saddam says, "oh all right.  I'll let you inspect."  You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved.  What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.
 
2013-06-23 02:26:22 AM  
What gets me is that there are ideologues who want to throw women into this combat meat grinder. And they'll succeed too, even if they have to lower the physical standards of what it takes to be a combat soldier.

On the upside, once women start coming home from the war with blown off limbs, damaged souls and mangled faces, maybe then someone will be motivated to DO SOMETHING for our injured veterans...
 
2013-06-23 02:27:21 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: Spoken like a typical liberal who likes Obama to pump his ass every 4 years. Does he at least give you a kiss first? It's traditional in some countries, not sure about Kenya.


I've heard he's a very caring lover.
 
2013-06-23 02:28:12 AM  

bwilson27: PLONK.


Dude, I'm laughing my ass off here - hahahaha, those we're some pretty good put downs for grown men.

BTW, I actually liked Smile, and I"m glad you're over your depression. No night-diving!
 
2013-06-23 02:28:57 AM  
I'm so thankful that medicine and counseling has helped me, and I am so sorry that similar measures failed this man. The human brain is the most magnificent biological structure that we know of, hopefully soon TBI and mental illnesses will be tackled with the same zeal as cancer and HIV.
 
2013-06-23 02:30:27 AM  

bwilson27: STRYPERSWINE: bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"

wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

Um, the coloring and name calling was a result of the CRAP the YOU type. Nothing else.
But you're right... I should just change your description to just regular TROLL.




DURRRRR DERP
 
2013-06-23 02:33:28 AM  

yourmomlovestetris: On the upside, once women start coming home from the war with blown off limbs, damaged souls and mangled faces, maybe then someone will be motivated to DO SOMETHING for our injured veterans...


That won't make a Goddamned bit of difference to the chickenhawks and war profiteers.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-23 02:33:46 AM  

J. Frank Parnell: WhoopAssWayne: Spoken like a typical liberal who likes Obama to pump his ass every 4 years. Does he at least give you a kiss first? It's traditional in some countries, not sure about Kenya.

I've heard he's a very caring lover.


Meh. I've heard he reads all his dirty-talk off a prompter.
 
2013-06-23 02:34:13 AM  
MurphyMurphy:
Look this HARD IN THE FARKING FACE. This is what the stars and stripes will be known for by future generations if we can't learn to be honest with ourselves and face the realities we are causing across the world while we silently lie to ourselves.

//I feel partly responsible too, we all should


So my post was an exasperating, lengthy rebuttal to the above sentiment, but instead of inflicting that on everyone, let me summarize:

If you are going to kill yourself, and there are people in your life who will be traumatized by your decision, that's fine. Sometimes people's bad chemicals make life unbearable.  But you farking OWE those people REAL explanations for your decision. Not the always popular, but always hollow "I had to do terrible things that I can't talk about" BULLshiat. You're going to kill yourself. There will be no consequences. I for one am certain the government is doing terrible things. It may even be making otherwise good people do terrible things, but if you're going to write a damn short story for a suicide note, posterity demands you throw in a couple incriminating lines about the "enormous terrible deeds" you were asked to do.  Otherwise, the rest of your suicide note reads like a guy who killed himself for no other reasons than Rachel Maddow's, and Bill Maher's nightly talking points - and that's no good reason to kill yourself at all.

So I don't believe you.  I don't believe any of your bullshiat.  Like 99% of the people who self-terminate, pain, psychiatric trauma, lost love, or huge disappointment was not a factor in your decision - you couldn't get something you wanted (it always comes down to that) - it was probably inconsequential - so you killed yourself. That's not a fate worthy of my sympathy, or consideration - and in the end, your failure to effectively communicate anything of any real substance regarding something so "enormous" makes your death as pointless as your life. Good riddance.

/USMC vet
//Never pulled my trigger on anyone - never needed to (I guess my manly essence drove the guys with guns away). Never had to face an enemy explosion or offensive - Thank Jesus or FSM or Buddah or whoever works for you...
///Did my time in the sandbox and have even witnessed people I farking SERVED with go to the "we were forced to do terrible things" card, when in fact we did no such thing.  The only dead Iraqi's I ever saw had been *starved* to death by their own unit commanders. Can't speak to those who stayed after I left.
////May kill myself one day, but it won't be over mysterious, unspecified military horrors, or Obamacare, or Nancy Pelosi taking my pistol away.  It will actually probably be because George R.R. won't finish the books before he dies, and I'll have to read awful fan fiction to finish the series. I'll make sure to add at least a couple details to anything "enormous" that influences my decision though.
 
2013-06-23 02:34:43 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,


It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.


Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?
 
2013-06-23 02:34:43 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.


It's very easy to make statements like this until you walk in someone else's shoes for 10 or 20 years and suffer how they suffer. I had my best friend commit suicide about 8 years back. In hindsight, the signs were there but you never know. He suffered all his life with bipolar disorder and only found out why he was so f*cked up during the last two years. He wondered why nobody told him before.

He went to all the support systems and doctors, their solution was to dope you up so you walk around in a fog. This guy was a farking genius. He would rather live and be able to think somewhat clearly rather than be a walking zombie. Finally, his demons were too much and he pulled the trigger after visiting all of his friends. His last visit, he seemed so calm and at peace. I miss him greatly.
 
2013-06-23 02:35:22 AM  

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: That won't make a Goddamned bit of difference to the chickenhawks and war profiteers.


Cowards like you would sit home hiding in the closet while the rest of the world burned. You disgust me.
 
2013-06-23 02:36:57 AM  
Or write the letter and don't kill yourself. Killing yourself doesn't help the people you leave behind. You're not saving them from perceived or potential problems. You're forever burdening them with the guilt of your death.
 
2013-06-23 02:38:02 AM  

STRYPERSWINE:
First of all, great memory. Secondly, you will always lose with this simple yes or no question: did Saddam fully and immediately comply?


The term you are looking for is "Casus Belli."
 
2013-06-23 02:38:37 AM  

Cyno01: Uh, maybe a few trolls on the internet sure, but the general public? Nobodys spitting on troops returning from the middle east, go to a restaurant in uniform nowadays and you get 10 people offering to pay for your meal. The war in Iraq isnt any more just than Vietnam was, but holy shiat do people bend over backwards for vets nowadays compared to then. Back then everybody was happy to blame drafted soldiers, nowadays most folks seem to reserve blame for any unpleasantness for the leaders of our now volunteer army.


All depends on your local area.

static.guim.co.uk


Also, just because people are flagrant trolls on the internet doesn't mean they don't actually feel that way.
 
2013-06-23 02:39:13 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: That won't make a Goddamned bit of difference to the chickenhawks and war profiteers.

Cowards like you would sit home hiding in the closet while the rest of the world burned. You disgust me.


Whereas you applaud and support the chickenhawks and war profiteers. Because you are NOT a coward, but a tough tough MAN.
 
2013-06-23 02:41:09 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.


You are setting up so many false, bad arguments here that it simply requires vivisection. First, what evidence is there that the world will just kill each other if America does not intervene? Next, at what point in this thread has anyone stated that American lives are worth any more, or any less for that matter, than non-American lives? Where are you even getting the 1:1000 ratio of American to non-American lives from, your intuition? Finally, please cite some statistics indicating that American intervention actually HAS moved Iraq and/or Afghanistan away from violent, backwards killing fields and towards stability and peace.

Cannot do any of that? Then kindly go jerk off into your Red Wings jersey and go to bed, the adults would like to continue discussing serious topics with serious arguments.
 
2013-06-23 02:42:53 AM  

Owangotang: You are setting up so many false, bad arguments here that it simply requires vivisection. First, what evidence is there that the world will just kill each other if America does not intervene?


We didn't need to get involved in WWII, did we?
 
2013-06-23 02:43:35 AM  

bwilson27: Whereas you applaud

... blah blah blah

Why did it take so long to get Smile out? What happened in '67? Did you get that kiss or not?
 
2013-06-23 02:46:53 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Owangotang: You are setting up so many false, bad arguments here that it simply requires vivisection. First, what evidence is there that the world will just kill each other if America does not intervene?

We didn't need to get involved in WWII, did we?


We stayed out of it until we were actually attacked, dipshiat.
 
2013-06-23 02:50:54 AM  
There hasn't been any reasons for war in a long time, really.  We can use machine translation on a global network to ease the confusion of trying to talk top people with other languages.  We have the ability to divert water for life itself and crop growth.  We can ease away from fossil fuels to source useful power for almost any need.  We can grow and distribute food and the seeds for it to anywhere in the world.  First world nations have surpluses beyond the scope of imagination.  We can design and build almost anything we can conceptualize.  We've figured out that melanin and physical features differences are a matter of diverse genetics within the species.

The only thing we can;t manage to do is get past the idea the we should own whatever resources may be located within whatever imaginary lines we draw on the planet.

Or that some people are more entitled that others to benefit from what we can take from the planet to sustain us.

Or that somehow, unless somebody, somewhere makes a buck off of everything that moves, that we're getting shafted out of something, somehow.  No matter how full or bellies or warm our homes or blessed we may be.  And the people who con us, century after century, since 'err a word was written, into stomping off, banner high, to kill some other poor bastards trying to survive on this blue planet and set light to THEIR banner - neither lift sword nor arrow, nor give a damn about the havoc in the wake of their greed.  We call this  patriotism.
 
2013-06-23 02:52:31 AM  

bwilson27: We stayed out of it until we were actually attacked, dipshiat.


Doesn't matter, we were under no further threat after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
 
2013-06-23 02:53:21 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Suicide friendly culture.

blanchae: DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.

It's very easy to make statements like this until you walk in someone else's shoes for 10 or 20 years and suffer how they suffer. I had my best friend commit suicide about 8 years back. In hindsight, the signs were there but you never know. He suffered all his life with bipolar disorder and only found out why he was so f*cked up during the last two years. He wondered why nobody told him before.

He went to all the support systems and doctors, their solution was to dope you up so you walk around in a fog. This guy was a farking genius. He would rather live and be able to think somewhat clearly rather than be a walking zombie. Finally, his demons were too much and he pulled the trigger after visiting all of his friends. His last visit, he seemed so calm and at peace. I miss him greatly.


It's very easy to dismiss statements like mine if you know someone who committed suicide, because you want to believe that they did everything in their power to save themselves.

They gave up.  They left their family and friends behind.  They chose to leave you.  The system didn't force their hand.  The doctors didn't kill them.  They killed themselves, nobody else.

Finally, did you ever stop to think how I knew multiple people who've either killed themselves, or attempted to kill themselves?  Have -you- ever lived in their shoes for 10-20 years and suffered how they suffered, or do you just assume you understand because of your best friend?

People who commit suicide create victims with their final selfish act.  Your 'best friend' chose to create a void in your life.  Chose to saddle you with their departure.  Chose to add to your lifelong baggage.
 
2013-06-23 02:54:34 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"

wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,


What Saddam had was basically non-functional and outdated.   It's well known that Saddam's stalling and refusal to play by Bush's rules was largely motivated by a fear of looking weak to Iran, Iraq's chief rival in the region and a country with a vested interest in Iraq due to its Shia population, among other things.   Anyone with a basic understanding of the Arab concept of "saving face" will understand why Saddam was essentially between a "rock and a hard place" during this time.   Chemical weapons were widely used during the Iran-Iraq war and was likely one of the few deterrents that Saddam had for dealing with the Iranian problem.  His stockpiles had been severely, if not completely, reduced in the wake of the Gulf War and to admit so publicly would be a tremendous loss in power vis-à-vis Iran.    Of course, the threat of a US invasion was equally problematic, but perhaps Saddam thought the US population and UN would be able to stave off such a significant military action.    Saddam was a stubborn, proud little bastard and felt, perhaps through his own arrogance, it was better to stand up the US than weaken his position in the Middle East.   I assure you, however, that at no time did his stockpile of WMDs pose a clear an immediate threat to the United States, despite what Bush/Cheney tried to sell to the world.

Are you familiar with Curveball?    You know, the guy that the US based a very large chunk of its pre-invasion WMD intelligence on?  Are you aware that he was proven to be a fraud?  How can you possibly still defend the invasion from a WMD perspective?    At least pick something like 'regime change in the interest of human rights' or some other opinion-based idea that can't be discarded by facts.

Lastly, let's assume for a minute that the WMD problem was a legit issue.    The subsequent prosecution of the war, in which virtually zero planning was done beyond 4-5 months post-invasion, is indefensible.   "Stay the course" is not a valid strategy, particularly when the current "course" is leading the country into a civil war and there exists no discernible exit strategy.    Bush clearly never really "got it" until nearly 4 years into the war when he realized the only way to pacify the country is to flood it with troops and violently eradicate the enemy while borrowing from the Vietnamization strategy and focusing on ways to force Iraq to take control of its own security.  For four years we drove around getting blown up and shot at with very little guidance or strategy to improve the situation.   That is a failure of leadership on par with the initial failure to vet intelligence and reliance on "cherry picking" the intelligence that fit the administrations model.   Both are INEXCUSABLE and we are WELL withing our right to continue to question it and demand accountability from the people we elect to make decisions.
 
2013-06-23 02:55:56 AM  
I wonder if he'll ever forgive me for failing him.
 
2013-06-23 03:02:47 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Freedom Isn't Free isn't about killing and dying in some overseas desert.


Never said it was farkstick.  In fact, I haven't really commented on our overseas operations at all.  Stop shoehorning your way in with irrelevant bullshiat.

If you're going to discuss something with me, fine, quote me and address my points.  Don't use my posts a platform to dive into some inane hate riddled spiel about global politics and just/unjust reasons for war with other countries and what your BeliefTM tells you what is and isn't true about our motivations.

That kind of stuff is above my pay-grade, as a figure of speech, and yours as well.  I am not making judgement on it because I quite simply do not have all the facts involved.  I, unlike all the politards present, prefer not to base an opinion solely on what FoxNEWS or CNN, or some jackholes blog tell me to think.  And I certainly don't make an arbitrary guess.

By all means, continue trolling like an enraged 12 year old though. It IS(still) a free country and internet.

Obviously a drinking game is right out, if we took a shot every time you ranted like a buffoon we'd be in the hospital by now. Maybe we can get a mod involved to let us know how many times you get ignored/favorited, we could start a pool.

/Duly noted, Poe's Law
 
2013-06-23 03:05:01 AM  
The litmus test for war is that common wisdom is no longer applicable.

The litmus test for wisdom is that it survives the ages.

Things change.

Change is the essence of life, but if you step back enough to see how little the template for that life process changes, but rather only our views and technologies we use to interact with it, the first thing you figure out is that pain, misery, cruelty and being inhumane are counterproductive across the board.  Still waiting for the great leap forward.
 
2013-06-23 03:06:18 AM  

Peki: I'm dealing with PTSD myself. I know exactly what he means with the medications, and the docs won't listen to you anyway when you tell them what's wrong because they're in the pharmaceutical companies' pockets.

I'm sorry he couldn't find a way out, and I'm sorry the his country wouldn't help in. I finally got light at the end of my tunnel, but it's been a damn dark 7 years to get here.


hugs...
 
2013-06-23 03:07:48 AM  

Kittypie070: I wonder if he'll ever forgive me for failing him.


What do you think you did to fail him?
 
2013-06-23 03:09:08 AM  

Cyno01: Is it because its an all volunteer army now? Why does that make soldiers less able to deal? Is it something else?


The average frontline soldier sees far, far more combat now than in WW2. Mostly because we're better at keeping them alive (body armor, modern medicine) and the enemy is worse at killing them.
 
2013-06-23 03:09:57 AM  

omeganuepsilon: It IS(still) a free country and internet.


In what sense? Have you paid any attention at all to the news the past couple weeks/decade?

That kind of stuff is above my pay-grade, as a figure of speech, and yours as well.

"So shut the fark up." Is that what you're saying?

I realize you have a hard on for our military men and women. That's fine. I don't.
 
2013-06-23 03:11:22 AM  
Well, that's depressing. Everything has probably been said now.

What better way to honor him them link to the shiatfest known as Gawker
There's some space between those words of his, get some ads there for Buzzfeed or something.
 
2013-06-23 03:11:40 AM  

omeganuepsilon: AverageAmericanGuy: Freedom Isn't Free isn't about killing and dying in some overseas desert.

Never said it was farkstick.  In fact, I haven't really commented on our overseas operations at all.  Stop shoehorning your way in with irrelevant bullshiat.

If you're going to discuss something with me, fine, quote me and address my points.  Don't use my posts a platform to dive into some inane hate riddled spiel about global politics and just/unjust reasons for war with other countries and what your BeliefTM tells you what is and isn't true about our motivations.

That kind of stuff is above my pay-grade, as a figure of speech, and yours as well.  I am not making judgement on it because I quite simply do not have all the facts involved.  I, unlike all the politards present, prefer not to base an opinion solely on what FoxNEWS or CNN, or some jackholes blog tell me to think.  And I certainly don't make an arbitrary guess.

By all means, continue trolling like an enraged 12 year old though. It IS(still) a free country and internet.

Obviously a drinking game is right out, if we took a shot every time you ranted like a buffoon we'd be in the hospital by now. Maybe we can get a mod involved to let us know how many times you get ignored/favorited, we could start a pool.

/Duly noted, Poe's Law


What a hypocritical ass you are. You claim that AAG makes no valid points and can only call names, then you boast about how you're above that type of behavior as you throw out garbage nonsense and name-call.
Good job showing your real colors..
No, really, go back and re-read the bullshiat you just wrote if you don't believe me.
 
2013-06-23 03:15:39 AM  

Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.


At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?


And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.
 
2013-06-23 03:15:59 AM  
bwilson27:

o_0

I wasn't expecting that kind of defense from you.

Color me surprised. (that's blue 4)
 
2013-06-23 03:17:35 AM  

decora: You need to let it go.


You're probably right.

A guy I used to work with in a thankless job once told me something along the lines of:
"You know what your problem is? You give a shiat. No one else does, that's why they are happier than you. You need to stop giving a shiat about the company, only worry about your own needs and concerns"


I don't think anything you said is necessarily incorrect. And I'm not implying with that quote you think I just shouldn't give a shiat entirely. But like you said, all we can really do is stop the next one.
But can we? When we don't even get the facts anymore? When it's all kept secret from us? When even the hero's we allegedly support and practically worship come home to sound an alarm and so many turn their backs or pretend not to hear?

We that didn't have to fight, those of us that didn't have to have our souls ripped out of us in some god forsaken desert need to continue the message these guys are trying to tell. We shouldn't let it go, they need us to be their voice... anyone really. They didn't just fight the wars we asked them to, they also fought battles (literally and metaphorically) that the government doesn't want you hearing the details of.

Why should they have to come back here and fight another battle trying to get their own nation to see the truth? I think that's our cue. Even if it's seemingly meaningless words, argued in a bar, at a dinner table, on a message board or forum or fark thread.
 If we don't all learn the realities of OUR actions (our charge in this democracy is that WE are responsible FOR our government and it's actions), if we don't start learning the lessons, we'll be doomed to repeat these mistakes over and over again. Our kids will be fated to the same horribleness these kids were.
 
2013-06-23 03:18:39 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-23 03:18:48 AM  

OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.


Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?
 
2013-06-23 03:20:27 AM  

Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?


Are you seriously that stupid?
 
2013-06-23 03:22:20 AM  

WhoopAssWayne: JerkyMeat: And may all you flag waving yellow ribbon farg republicans eat shiat and die. YOU are the true enemy of this nation. Thanks for your oil wars, ya farking homos.

Instead we have great liberal patriots such as yourself. When Obama lied to you about ending illegal wiretapping, stopping foreign wars, and everything else, what did you do? You voted for him again like the suckers you are, the suckers he knew you to be. And now you're hiding under your bed and p*ssing down your pant leg rather than standing up and calling him out for his crimes. Thanks again for Obama, you f*cking fools.


Waaaa, OBAMA, WWAAAA.  Zip it pinhead.   The GOP are to blame.
 
2013-06-23 03:23:08 AM  

bwilson27: What a hypocritical ass you are. You claim that AAG makes no valid points and can only call names, then you boast about how you're above that type of behavior as you throw out garbage nonsense and name-call.
Good job showing your real colors..
No, really, go back and re-read the bullshiat you just wrote if you don't believe me.


What a hypocritical ass you are. You claim that ONE makes no valid points and can only call names, then you boast about how you're above that type of behavior as you throw out garbage nonsense and name-call.
Good job showing your real colors..
No, really, go back and re-read the bullshiat you just wrote if you don't believe me.

Seriously.  Yo' dog, I herd you like hypocricy in your hypocricy, so we put some hypocricy in your.....etc

I claimed that he was being irrelevant to anything I had posted and was trying to stir up irrelevant shiat, to bring attention to his anti-military stance, as he's done the whole thread.  but whatever.  If you like him so much, I bet he'd let you give him a dutch rudder or monroe exchange or something.  But please, do it elsewhere, there's enough filth in here as it is.
 
2013-06-23 03:24:09 AM  

OgreMagi: There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.


Nevertheless, we had Saddam well-contained. Potshots at our planes enforcing the no-fly zone were way down. Iraq/Saddam posed no credible threat to the US.

Yes, he was belligerent. Yes, he was probably hiding shiat. But it was small potatoes as he had virtually no capability to deliver.

Who's to say, though? Maybe he could have smuggled a dirty bomb into NYC or DC or London. In the end, though, he seemed more interested in dealing with the French and getting rich off that than being a terrorist.

None of that rises to the level of invasion, and we were wrong to go in. (I think you said as much in an earlier post)
 
2013-06-23 03:25:47 AM  
omeganuepsilon:

Seriously.  Yo' dog, I herd you like hypocricy in your hypocricy, so we put some hypocricy in your.....etc

I claimed that he was being irrelevant to anything I had posted and was trying to stir up irrelevant shiat, to bring attention to his anti-military stance, as he's done the whole thread.  but whatever.  If you like him so much, I bet he'd let you give him a dutch rudder or monroe exchange or something.  But please, do it elsewhere, there's enough filth in here as it is.


Now you just sound jealous.
 
drp
2013-06-23 03:30:49 AM  
I see Fark is up to its usual standards of reasoned, informed discussion here.

Or not.

Maybe I'll go check out the latest Zimmerman thread instead.

Yeah, that's the ticket.
 
2013-06-23 03:32:54 AM  

drp: I see Fark is up to its usual standards of reasoned, informed discussion here.


Does say quite a bit about the mechanics of war, though.
 
2013-06-23 03:33:04 AM  
and what about the 180 non-veterans who off themselves each day?
 
2013-06-23 03:34:02 AM  
My two cents on farcebork --

I wish he didn't kill himself. He knew. He was TOO AWARE of "a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak." And it drove him to suicide.

I cannot say this enough: FARK YOU DEA! And Fark you Authoritarians. And Fark you Richard M. Nixon and your followers for this nightmare dystopia. What you've done to me, my family and friends is bad enough, but doing this shiz to our soldiers is the worst treason imaginable. May the Authoritarian scum all die painfully at the hands of those they've tormented.There you go.  Fark the DEA.

/ Tricky Dick's Legacy of Terror
 
2013-06-23 03:34:53 AM  

proteus_b: and what about the 180 non-veterans who off themselves each day?


I think anybody who can survive the present socioeconomic climate of this spinny blue ball is SOME sort of a battle veteran.
 
2013-06-23 03:35:28 AM  
holdeestrufs:

Half your post I agree with completely, and the other half I couldn't disagree more. But I think you're sincere and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As terrible as I feel for him, you're right that he owes his loved ones better. I've had some people take the short way out in my life... it's as bullshiat as it is tragic.

And as to people that would play that "I had to do things man" b.s. lying through their teeth?... well no matter where we go we find some incredible pieces of shiat.  I can't speak to this kids claims, as you point out he's provided no proof.  But I guess I can't say anything other than; the people I know that claim to have done some terrible things are simply not the quality of person that would do something like that to garner sympathy, respect, whatever.

I'll usually give someone the benefit of the doubt unless someone gives me good reason to believe otherwise. But extraordinary claims do need just as extraordinary proofs. But we can play cliches all day. Where there's smoke there's fire. War's hell. Blah blah blah.

At the end of the day it's the USA. We should be able to GET the facts AND expect better.

My one good friend was one of the first Marines to hit Iraq. Some of the shiat he thinks maybe was necessary, some wasn't. But none of it was the type of thing you took pictures of and sent to a Senator... you say you're usmc, you know how a unit's mentality can be (and for good reason). Everyone thinks if you're in the military and something bad happens all you have to do is "find an adult and tell them" type of shiat. It just doesn't seem to work that way, even if it should.

So the burden of proof thing.... what do you do if there is a concerted effort to keep something secret? I seriously doubt every vet that says they saw terrible shiat that simply shouldn't be done by US troops is a lying basterd. Especially if it's someone I know. So what do they do?  Just shut up and pretend it didn't happen and let the shiat continue?

Oooh, maybe they can 'blow the whistle' and be branded a traitor and thrown in prison?

Yeah, no easy answers at all. I might not agree with you, but I'm a dirty liberal so go figure.  I do think I know where you're coming from.
 
2013-06-23 03:38:07 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.


Yeah things were great - no war, no disease, no poverty - when... uh... wait, when were things great?
 
2013-06-23 03:38:45 AM  
War crimes or not, clearly this guy didn't get the support he needed.  Like someone said above, war is pretty much always an atrocity.  Without some more information it's hard to say whether what he went through was more than the usual atrocity, but atrocity is one of those words like pregnant.  Hard to be a little bit pregnant.  Regardless of anything else, he deserved better than he got.  The outcome alone proves that.
 
2013-06-23 03:38:54 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: OgreMagi: There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Nevertheless, we had Saddam well-contained. Potshots at our planes enforcing the no-fly zone were way down. Iraq/Saddam posed no credible threat to the US.

Yes, he was belligerent. Yes, he was probably hiding shiat. But it was small potatoes as he had virtually no capability to deliver.

Who's to say, though? Maybe he could have smuggled a dirty bomb into NYC or DC or London. In the end, though, he seemed more interested in dealing with the French and getting rich off that than being a terrorist.

None of that rises to the level of invasion, and we were wrong to go in. (I think you said as much in an earlier post)


Yes, I did say I was against going into Iraq.  He was an evil bastard who needed killing, but we were busy in Afghanistan at the time and I thought (and was proven right) that it would be a major distraction that was quite unnecessary.  As you mentioned, we basically had him bottled up.  He wasn't going anywhere and we could have dealt with him at some other time.  Like AFTER we finished in Afghanistan.  As far as I'm concerned, we are finished there now and I see no reason to have more of our soldiers die for that shiatty little country.  Let's just leave them to their own misery.  If they get uppity again, drop a missile or two on their parliamentary building while they are in session and call it a day.
 
2013-06-23 03:40:56 AM  
 
2013-06-23 03:41:56 AM  
Begoggle:

Yeah things were great - no war, no disease, no poverty - when... uh... wait, when were things great?

In the 50's, man, that's when everyone was happy!! Then the damn hippies came and made everything gross and dirty.
 
2013-06-23 03:58:34 AM  

OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?
 
2013-06-23 03:59:17 AM  
I watched an interview of one of the last surviving WWI (One) veterans; iirc he was 97. He was asked when was the last time he'd had a nightmare of the war and he responded: 'Last night'.

Even when you don't witness or perform atrocities, there are little things that pick at you - Personal Experience. The woulda-coulda-shouldas... everyone has them. Understatement: the war ones tend to be hard to set aside; doesn't matter what war it is.

The first time I met my wife's father, (I was active duty at the time and got him talking about WWII) he told me about the day they (he was with Patton) liberated one of the concentration camps... (in over 35 years he'd never told his wife or kids).

I had the privilege of meeting and talking with veterans from other countries as well. One of my Russian Instructors was at Stalingrad - a member of the '2% club' (only 2% of Soviet males born that year survived WWII).

They had friends who ate their guns when they came home. There might not have been as high a number of veterans walking around at the time with TBI, but it wouldn't surprise me if it accounted for several of them. But I also know veterans, firemen and policeman who committed suicide after they retired... they didn't know what to do with themselves.

And I think that may be a peek at the increased number of suicides occurring today. While secularization may affect some individuals, and while there may be an efficacious factor decompressing w/ others who have shared similar experiences, I honestly believe the single most contributing factor is: a lack of purpose and self-worth because 'work' today... isn't. Most jobs are not physically demanding. Fifty or more years ago, you humped 16+hrs a day, and hit the rack bone tired; that oblivion one obtains from working hard and feeling you did something of value. Now most people sleepwalk to/at/back from work. My father's and previous generations worked until they dropped.

That kind of life would also mask the numbers who 'accidentally' died - where I was first stationed, a Senior Chief was killed when his car slammed into a tree. His wife came to collect his benefits unaware he'd been force-retired weeks earlier: he'd gotten up every day, put on his uniform and walked out the front door.

/A Vietnam Vet friend back in the 80's looked me in the eye and told me he found himself shaking in the 7-11 trying to convince himself the 'importance' of his snack choice, and realized he hadn't done anything that 'mattered' in months - not counting large consumption of tequila and cigarettes - which was the sole purpose of the job he currently had.
 
2013-06-23 04:06:05 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Not being an expert, I'll venture a few guesses:

WWII vets felt that they were fighting for something. Defense of liberty against an enemy that could be objectively classified as evil or defense of a nation against an enemy that attacked first, depending on the part of the globe the vet saw action. That sense of accomplishment and "doing what needed be done" can help to overcome a good deal of psychological trauma. The current crop of vets probably has a much higher percentage wondering what, exactly, their psyche took that beating for.

Another possible explaination is that returning WWII vets had a much higher percentage of their peers who had served and a society that was very aware of the war. Soldiers from the current conflicts come home to a majority of their peers who have no idea what it's like and a society that trumpets "Support The Troops" but only has a dim understanding of what The Troops have gone through and is aware of the conflicts almost as an afterthought.

I've never served in the military, but I've had some...farked up experiences. Nothing near what the guys serving in a combat role have dealt with, but I have some pretty serious scars in my head. I can even trace behavior changes after a couple of particularly notable events. If I didn't have a strong belief that what I do is ultimately worth the occasional mental injury I endure, I think I'd go off the deep end.
 
2013-06-23 04:09:00 AM  

Tired_of_the_BS: I watched an interview of one of the last surviving WWI (One) veterans; iirc he was 97. He was asked when was the last time he'd had a nightmare of the war and he responded: 'Last night'.

Even when you don't witness or perform atrocities, there are little things that pick at you - Personal Experience. The woulda-coulda-shouldas... everyone has them. Understatement: the war ones tend to be hard to set aside; doesn't matter what war it is.

The first time I met my wife's father, (I was active duty at the time and got him talking about WWII) he told me about the day they (he was with Patton) liberated one of the concentration camps... (in over 35 years he'd never told his wife or kids).

I had the privilege of meeting and talking with veterans from other countries as well. One of my Russian Instructors was at Stalingrad - a member of the '2% club' (only 2% of Soviet males born that year survived WWII).

They had friends who ate their guns when they came home. There might not have been as high a number of veterans walking around at the time with TBI, but it wouldn't surprise me if it accounted for several of them. But I also know veterans, firemen and policeman who committed suicide after they retired... they didn't know what to do with themselves.

And I think that may be a peek at the increased number of suicides occurring today. While secularization may affect some individuals, and while there may be an efficacious factor decompressing w/ others who have shared similar experiences, I honestly believe the single most contributing factor is: a lack of purpose and self-worth because 'work' today... isn't. Most jobs are not physically demanding. Fifty or more years ago, you humped 16+hrs a day, and hit the rack bone tired; that oblivion one obtains from working hard and feeling you did something of value. Now most people sleepwalk to/at/back from work. My father's and previous generations worked until they dropped.

That kind of life would also mask the numbers who 'accidentally' died - where I was first stationed, a Senior Chief was killed when his car slammed into a tree. His wife came to collect his benefits unaware he'd been force-retired weeks earlier: he'd gotten up every day, put on his uniform and walked out the front door.

/A Vietnam Vet friend back in the 80's looked me in the eye and told me he found himself shaking in the 7-11 trying to convince himself the 'importance' of his snack choice, and realized he hadn't done anything that 'mattered' in months - not counting large consumption of tequila and cigarettes - which was the sole purpose of the job he currently had.


So what exactly is your point?
 
2013-06-23 04:09:11 AM  

Corn_Fed: WhoopAssWayne: Corn_Fed: You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

Obama promised in 2008 to have all combat brigades out of Iraq in 16 months. You and the other liberals need to wash the blood off your own hands before calling out anyone else, especially after electing this fool for a second term.

Go to hell, war supporter.

You filth started the dumbest war in American history, and now you whine because Obama couldn't end it fast enough?


While at the same time accusing him of 'cutting and running' for implementing the troop withdrawal schedule agreed between GWB and the Iraqi government.
 
2013-06-23 04:14:44 AM  
When your job has a good chance of making you kill people, it's best to not be an overly sensitive man. Don't think of your enemies as people who have families, the thoughts will destroy your life!
 
2013-06-23 04:17:26 AM  

GreenSun: When your job has a good chance of making you kill people, it's best to not be an overly sensitive man. Don't think of your enemies as people who have families, the thoughts will destroy your life!


If history has taught us anything is that we have an almost limitless capacity for qualifying, justifying and filtering our bad ideas by ignoring the reality of the results.
 
2013-06-23 04:19:22 AM  
Seriously you partisan hacks are annoying. Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sure the GOP almost make the Democrats look competent by comparison but both parties continue to push the status quo of warrantless wiretapping and blowing up brown people. Not to mention security theater and general incompetent in fixing some of the most important problems in this nation.
 
2013-06-23 04:28:40 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: DURRRRR DERP


Wow, I'm surprised you can type so much with Cheney's d!ck in your mouth. He's not paying you to think, son.

4,000+ American died in Iraq for nothing. That's what happened, and that's what the history books will say. Hell, even Pat Tillman, the bravest and most selfless soldier of my generation, said that Iraq was bullshiat. And that's before we even invaded. I cannot fathom the level of soulless stupidity a person would have to inhabit to continue to defend it now. You probably think they shipped all of their WMD to Syria, and were behind 9/11 too. I've never enjoyed putting a dumb piece of shiat on ignore as much as I'm going to enjoy putting you there. Now get back to work. Slurp slurp slurp...
 
2013-06-23 04:32:09 AM  

Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?

img.fark.net img.fark.net
It is also very true that French and German corporations did have quite healthy profits trading with Iraq via the "Oil for Food Program" allowed by UN sanctions, and as such both host nations did have ulterior motives for opposing the U.S. invasion. The toppling of Hussein and his regime may very well have had great long-term benefits in the region. Seeing that a leader was immune to being ousted could very well have allowed the events of the Arab Spring to have taken place by psychologically empowering the participants. The problem of course is that while a domino effect may have occurred, no solutions to fill the subsequent power vacuums were in place unlike after all most prior wars.  I can only imagine that for a soldier trying to cope with what he or she has seen this only compounds the personal moral issues of simply not being one of the Good Guys since things now seem to be worse. Granted of course since we don't know much about what went on before hand, who knows how much different life really is for many local people.

Even if everything was tidied up tomorrow around the world and we closed every base and brought every soldier home, we would still find someone to go to war with. Most likely we'd probably "declare war" on some sort of petty domestic bullshiat thing and would turn against ourselves.

Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong. Certainly we don't want a chilling-effect to hamper our abilities to defend ourselves, but profiteers should pay the same burdens as soldiers do when it comes to this unnecessary crap of declaring "eminent domain" upon other countries for the sake of corporations.
 
2013-06-23 04:37:29 AM  

Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?

What is it you ...


When people throw their arms in the air, yell "fark it", and walk away, it isn't because you won the debate.  It's because they've realized that they might as well debate with a brick wall.

Actually, correction.  Arguing with a brick wall would be more productive because it wouldn't go out of its way to act stupid.  You could learn a lot from a brick wall.
 
2013-06-23 04:37:49 AM  

bbfreak: Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq


A hell of a lot more Dems were against the Iraq war than republicans, including the Dem currently sitting in the farking White House, who made it a priority to end the war and finish the job of finding bin Laden instead -- you may have heard of him. I'm farking sick to death of this false moral equivalency. Both sides are opportunistic political bastards, yes, but most of the Dems who supported Iraq did so because the GOP created a climate of rage and fear that made being against Iraq political suicide for most of the people in Congress. Hell, Bush campaigned in 2000 on invading Iraq, and was gearing up to do so before 9/11 even happened. It was always about finishing the job his daddy never finished. And for that we got 4,000 dead Americans with zero WMD program dismantled, our reputation ruined by that embarrassing dog-and-pony show Powell presented to the UN, more al Qaeda in Iraq after we invaded than before, a whole section of Iraq essentially falling into Iranian hands, and a bunch of oil contracts handed over to the Chinese. Bravo. There's a whole new definition of stupidity reserved for people who still defend that war.
 
2013-06-23 04:43:53 AM  

Claude Ballse: Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.


And the day we demand that those who profit from it and their sons pick up a rifle and fight it, it will be neither inevitable nor necessary.
 
2013-06-23 04:53:49 AM  

bunner: Claude Ballse: But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.


Every war is for profit.
 
2013-06-23 04:57:35 AM  

bunner: Claude Ballse: Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.

And the day we demand that those who profit from it and their sons pick up a rifle and fight it, it will be neither inevitable nor necessary.


Heh.  You've identified someone who will get others killed for personal gain, and you want to arm them?
 
2013-06-23 05:03:00 AM  

DVOM: bunner: Claude Ballse: But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.

Every war is for profit.


It is the original corporate venture, but that doesn't make it a good one.
 
2013-06-23 05:03:45 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Heh.  You've identified someone who will get others killed for personal gain, and you want to arm them?


They're armed now.  They just subcontract the actual killing.
 
2013-06-23 05:17:29 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: bbfreak: Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq

A hell of a lot more Dems were against the Iraq war than republicans, including the Dem currently sitting in the farking White House, who made it a priority to end the war and finish the job of finding bin Laden instead -- you may have heard of him. I'm farking sick to death of this false moral equivalency. Both sides are opportunistic political bastards, yes, but most of the Dems who supported Iraq did so because the GOP created a climate of rage and fear that made being against Iraq political suicide for most of the people in Congress. Hell, Bush campaigned in 2000 on invading Iraq, and was gearing up to do so before 9/11 even happened. It was always about finishing the job his daddy never finished. And for that we got 4,000 dead Americans with zero WMD program dismantled, our reputation ruined by that embarrassing dog-and-pony show Powell presented to the UN, more al Qaeda in Iraq after we invaded than before, a whole section of Iraq essentially falling into Iranian hands, and a bunch of oil contracts handed over to the Chinese. Bravo. There's a whole new definition of stupidity reserved for people who still defend that war.


Afghanistan is still OK though eh? The four soldiers who died four days ago died for a just cause? Also, true more Republicans than democrats voted for the Iraq war but not in numbers enough to matter. The Senate especially.

My point was that both parties continue the status quo. Sure, Republicans are a lot worse but as a nation we deserve better than what both parties are selling.
 
2013-06-23 05:21:28 AM  
BBFreak: 'So what exactly is your point?'

Lol - I worked so hard trying to keep what I wanted to say from tl;dr that apparently I didn't explain. And to be honest, I don't know if I had 20 pages I could adequately explain.

I'll try again:

War sends people home who are broken, time doesn't necessarily make it better. I've known some who have experienced minor things and couldn't deal with it, and I've met others who experienced such atrocities that I'm amazed they were able to live functioning, productive lives afterwards.

'Modern' life is not Capital 'R' reality enough to provide many individuals with purpose or long term distraction; hence a common practice to use and abuse drugs (both legal and illegal) and alcohol.

Previous generations worked like dogs - much of the work was physically demanding - and that either provided them with fulfillment, they dropped dead before they felt the urge to check out, or they used the harsh work environment to check themselves out in a way that was not blatantly suicide.

The vets Ive known that did the worst... How many Farkers biatch about the pointlessness of news/entertainment? They see their lives as 'this' times eleventy. And while some above state they are betraying their friends and family, that's not how they see it at all... They feel they're better off w/o them. (And the shiatty thing is, tbh, for many it's true). Most people who grow up with an abusive, alcoholic, or mentally unstable parent - their lives start to improve after they're gone. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck, doesn't mean they don't wish their asshat parent/relative was unable to find a way to change. It just is.

When I've met vets that far gone, the ones I've ever seen 'recover' are those that found a way to physically wear themselves out daily and stuck at it long enough that they found purpose doing it. But hey, take it with a grain of salt; not my job. Rate what I know with the 'stayed at a Holiday Inn' experts.
 
2013-06-23 05:27:57 AM  
Nobody comes home from a war.  You might come back, but home isn't there anymore and you're not the person who left it.
 
2013-06-23 05:29:07 AM  
<I>During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of. </I>

Who? Where? When?

You asshole. You could've been a witness. You could've won gotten some justice to compensate for the crimes you saw and committed. But no, you had to take it all to the grave. Good riddance. I'd tell you to go fark yourself, but you already did.
 
2013-06-23 05:48:14 AM  

italie: So I'm torn here. I know it was a bullshait war to begin with. I won't doubt he was "forced" to participate in things that just aren't right. I feel for him, but at the same time I take issue with a tiny detail.

My hang-up is the participation. If he knew what he was doing to be so horrid, wouldn't the best course of action be to take an other than honorable  discharge?


Oh, I doubt if, at the time, it seemed so horrid that he thought he couldn't keep doing it. The human mind is wonderfully adept at justifying what it has to do at the moment it has to be done, even if it's executing little kids with big eyes with the tip of a rusty bayonet. Then the human comes home and has to live with it, and it seems to him that he MUST have hated doing it; because the alternative is to believe that he's a terrible monster. It's having to deal with that cognitive dissonance that kills some of these guys.

As to "just taking the other than honorable," you have no idea how that can screw up your life. In some cases, a dishonorable or other than honorable can destroy a person's future nearly as badly as a felony conviction--or at least seem to, when you're looking at it from the narrow end. And someone like this--tending to depression, suffering a traumatic brain injury--isn't going to think of ways to get around an other than honorable.

And it's likely he didn't have to do anything that was any more awful than any other veteran had to do. We did some pretty bad things in Iraq, but nothing on the same level as, say, the genocide in Bosnia or even any My Lai style mass executions. Which isn't the point at all. He saw and did some things he couldn't mentally cope with, and the mechanisms weren't there to help him deal with it, either in or out of the service. And that is a disgrace to the military and to America and we should all be very very ashamed.
 
2013-06-23 05:52:55 AM  
 

deffuse: So far I can see exactly one cockbag in this thread.


Well, sorry boys and girls, one wasn't enough.
 
2013-06-23 05:53:17 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.


You mean when he attacked the US?  Or our long-time ally Kuwait.
 
2013-06-23 06:00:10 AM  
Didn't we sort of give old Saddam his job?  Funny how we can say who gets to run what country.  No wonder the world thinks we view every place on earth with electricity as a suburb of the US.
 
2013-06-23 06:06:20 AM  
This is definitely an interesting case. Not sure i understand his hatred of the DEA. I figured it meant that he had a run in with the law but he doesn't show up in Arizona court records (at least not on the public record, could have a plea with a drug court to keep it off the public record).

"My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give."

"They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them. "

"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

Am I the only one thinking there might have been a prescription medication dependency issue here? Is his grudge with the DEA due to he isn't able to find a physician to get him the mix he feels like he needs? Opiates, Benzodiazepenes, SSRIs, all medications that dependency can develop. Withdrawal from these medications can be hell. WW2 vets used alcohol and cigarettes and Vietnam veterans tended to use illegal drugs. Is the trend now that our Iraq/Afghan vets abuse prescription medications? I remember reading stories about how soldiers were nervous about them possibly running out of medications while on a deployment during the opening months of the war, and now they are given nearly a 6 month supply and trusted to not take more than the proper dosages.

I have a friend who is going back to Afghanistan in 2 months on Effexor. He also takes Lortab daily for knee injuries and Nuvigil for his "shift work sleep disorder" however it is acceptable per Army policy. Add that to the fairly common use of anabolic steroids in the military (not approved but still common), the "go pills" (amphetamines-distributed) and you are going to have some massive cognitive strain.

Hell, the army is even paying for research into an intranasal injectable antidepressant.

Here's the LA Times article that explained the military's medication use:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/07/nation/la-na-army-medication -2 0120408

Here's a website that has been keeping track of SSRI effects:
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=soldier

Regardless of the justification of the war, this is still an issue that needs to be addressed and I don't think more pills are the problem. I'd love to see the results of the Buddhist-inspired training that the USMC is trying (fark had a pretty clever headline on it last year)
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130119/news/701199837/
 
2013-06-23 06:16:11 AM  

thehobbes: This is definitely an interesting case. Not sure i understand his hatred of the DEA. I figured it meant that he had a run in with the law but he doesn't show up in Arizona court records (at least not on the public record, could have a plea with a drug court to keep it off the public record).

"My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give."

"They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them. "

"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

Am I the only one thinking there might have been a prescription medication dependency issue here? Is his grudge with the DEA due to he isn't able to find a physician to get him the mix he feels like he needs? Opiates, Benzodiazepenes, SSRIs, all medications that dependency can develop. Withdrawal from these medications can be hell. WW2 vets used alcohol and cigarettes and Vietnam veterans tended to use illegal drugs. Is the trend now that our Iraq/Afghan vets abuse prescription medications? I remember reading stories about how soldiers were nervous about them possibly running out of medications while on a deployment during the opening months of the war, and now they are given nearly a 6 month supply and trusted to not take more than the proper dosages.

I have a friend who is going back to Afghanistan in 2 months on Effexor. He also takes Lortab daily for knee injuries and Nuvigil for his "shift work sleep disorder" however it is acceptable per Army policy. Add that to the fairly common use of anabolic steroids in the military (not approved but still common), the "go pills" (amphetamines-distributed) and you are going to have some massive cognitive strain.

Hel ...


I'm thinking he was on some kind of pain meds (Vicodin? Percocet?) which doctors are notoriously paranoid about prescribing in sufficient amounts because they get watched by the medical board for over prescribing and/or getting their patients addicted. What he describes does sound like someone in the throes of opiate withdrawal. But it also sounds like someone in the depths of a depressive episode who can't find the medication mix that works--and chronic pain can create or feed into chronic depression. Plus, SSRIs and other antidepressants can prevent the use of some painkillers, because they enhance the effects. And he was likely drinking or otherwise self-medicating to dull the pain on his own, I'd bet.

It's also possible he was trying to get medical marijuana, either for the depression or for the brain injury (it's not been okayed for either, although I hear it works well for both), and blamed the DEA in error for his inability to get it even without any actual legal problems. There is nothing like serious depression for making you paranoid and delusional as all git-out, and you'll look for anything to hang your suicide on. So to speak.
 
2013-06-23 06:16:59 AM  

Cid_Highwind: <I>During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of. </I>

Who? Where? When?

You asshole. You could've been a witness. You could've won gotten some justice to compensate for the crimes you saw and committed. But no, you had to take it all to the grave. Good riddance. I'd tell you to go fark yourself, but you already did.


Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.
 
2013-06-23 08:17:02 AM  

bbfreak: Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.


Similarly, he didn't speak for veterans. He congratulated himself for his guilt because that made him better than a sociopath, somehow. Even though in the end, whatever he did to earn that guilt happened whether he felt guilty about it or not, and he never did anything about it. A collection of rationalizations for suicide is just that, nothing more.
 
2013-06-23 08:19:25 AM  
The Iraq Murder Party will continue to deliver its grisly blessings for as long as any of us continue to draw breath
 
2013-06-23 08:25:53 AM  
Gyrfalcon:

And it's likely he didn't have to do anything that was any more awful than any other veteran had to do. We did some pretty bad things in Iraq, but nothing on the same level as, say, the genocide in Bosnia or even any My Lai style mass executions. Which isn't the point at all. He saw and did some things he couldn't mentally cope with, and the mechanisms weren't there to help him deal with it, either in or out of the service. And that is a disgrace to the military and to America and we should all be very very ashamed.

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, I think the biggest disgrace was sending them there in the first place. Failure starts at that point.
 
2013-06-23 08:52:41 AM  
anyone got the letter from a different source or a screencap? i dont want to click on a gawker link.
 
2013-06-23 09:07:07 AM  

Cid_Highwind: bbfreak: Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.

Similarly, he didn't speak for veterans. He congratulated himself for his guilt because that made him better than a sociopath, somehow. Even though in the end, whatever he did to earn that guilt happened whether he felt guilty about it or not, and he never did anything about it. A collection of rationalizations for suicide is just that, nothing more.


So? This was a man in need of help physically and mentally, who couldn't even see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yet you call him an asshole and admonish him for being unable to do something about his situation when as stated he was unable to see the point of continuing or doing so. He was in no condition mentally to live up to your standards.

I lay blame largely where it belongs, with the VA and all the politicians who sent this man off to war in the first place. Go ahead though, contact his family and tell them what an asshole you think he was though.
 
2013-06-23 09:28:32 AM  
A thread like this is very handy for picking out all the ones who need to go on the ignore list.

A thorough and careful suicide is about as preventable as sunrise, farktards.  And keep in mind, for those who keep farking harping on 'so why didn't he give the details?!?' he may well have, and they may well have been reserved - or this would never, ever get published as far and wide as has already been.

Jesus H. Farking Christ in high heels on a buckboard - the sociopaths are thick.

/yup, I mean that BOTH ways
 
2013-06-23 09:31:06 AM  
Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?

It is annoying that Farkers keep replying in in the form of questions. That goes for rhetorical questions as well (or especially). Just make your point and if it is misunderstood, repeat it more clearly in different words.

/realizes he's setting himself up for the joke of only getting questions as answers
 
2013-06-23 09:38:34 AM  
Let's say you could write IOUs with absolutely nothing behind them.

Let's say that you could, through force, maintain these IOUs as the one and only method of access to ANYthing people need to survive, and thereby use them to leverage actual wealth like precious metals, minerals, arable land, trees, potable water and the means of production.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that you could then have different areas occupying different imaginary boundaries on the planet agree to do the same and control the flow of all wealth and access thereto and then agree to, every so often, send off a few hundred  thousand of the people occupying YOUR imaginary boundaries to go and blow the people occupying the other guy's imaginary boundaries to hell.  Using some of the most amazingly lethal tech on the planet. And thereby maintain the perceived and illusory worth of your IOUs and the necessities of those boundaries.

Is anybody catching on, yet?  None of the collateral damage gets to the people who print the IOUs, distribute them or support the system that forces us to use them.  Why do you suppose that is?  Money really is a lousy god.  Because look at  the ugly things we do to get it, thereby subverting any positive uses it may have.  We have the ability to create things that can serve human beings, and we end up creating things that we eventually need to serve.  User application error. War, and the things that start them, is the most blatant form of it.
 
2013-06-23 10:41:09 AM  

MurphyMurphy: Look this HARD IN THE FARKING FACE. This is what the stars and stripes will be known for by future generations


War and atrocity have always been best friends.

But you're right - we own it because in 2003 we decided to "go ahead and start the war" on a whim. That was the moment we lost whatever moral high ground we once held.
 
2013-06-23 10:50:28 AM  
This is what Statism does.

It doesn't matter which faction nominally controls the State. A few hundred years of experience should make that clear by now.

Do you really think this is the first time the US crime ring has sent Americans abroad to murder foreigners in order to cause "regime change" in a country that posed no threat to America on the basis of evidence that was later revealed to be exaggerated and false? Milosevic ring a bell? General Smedley Butler (2-time Medal of Honor recipient) described the war racket in detail nearly a century ago. Nothing changes.

You party loyalists are the biggest fools in the whole rotten system.
 
2013-06-23 10:56:49 AM  

ladyfortuna: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Why would you ruin such an awesome natural feature of the earth by poisoning it with that?

And I guess the nuke would be bad for it, too.


Yeah, true.  Any canyon/valley in the middle of nowhere should do then.
 
2013-06-23 10:59:49 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


Ah yes, the Sherriff Joe asshat supporter chimes in.

*plonk*
 
2013-06-23 11:02:12 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.


Why not, worked for Switzerland.
 
2013-06-23 11:02:58 AM  

bwilson27: Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.

You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!


I know right.  It's nice for him to comment from his ivory tower.
 
2013-06-23 11:04:18 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: That won't make a Goddamned bit of difference to the chickenhawks and war profiteers.

Cowards like you would sit home hiding in the closet while the rest of the world burned. You disgust me.


This from someone that sits comfortably in his ivory tower.
 
2013-06-23 11:23:09 AM  
A soldier saw bad things, and can't live with it. I'm saddened that he's gone, I'm saddened that he went through it, and I'm happy that he's found peace.

Suicide is neither a sin, nor a bad act. It is the right of every individual who cannot find peace otherwise.

As to the shiat people saw in war...people like to shiat all over the US for supposedly doing bad things, well, I can tell you that the things the enemy did and does are much worse, and worthy of fighting.
 
2013-06-23 11:24:27 AM  
It's not so much that wanting to be the "Uh, oh! Daddy's home!" to the world is the worst of intentions it's just that dad drinks, beats mom and hasn't got a lot of belt swinging room to speak of.
 
2013-06-23 11:29:46 AM  
TO THOSE OF YOU IN THIS THREAD HATING ON THE PAWNS I FLING POO IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION
 
2013-06-23 11:44:30 AM  
He blamed Bush and Cheney? Bush & Cheney have been out of the picture for half a decade. Therefore, THIS IS SOON NOT GOING TO BE ANY SORT OF PROBLEM. If Messiah Obama has nothing at all do to with this, then this has simply ceased to be a problem.
 
2013-06-23 11:45:31 AM  
The suicide rate for soldiers is double the national rate because soldiers are 18-40 or so.

National rate is diluted because it covers 1-100+ year olds.

The rate of soldier suicides matches the rate of their civilian counterparts for their age bracket.
 
2013-06-23 11:46:17 AM  
Seriously... all you back-seat pieces of shiat going on about what he should have done, and about how the support is there if you just look hard enough.  Here is a bowl of c*cks, now eat it.  You have no farking idea what the hell you are talking about, period.  I don't care where you've been or who you are, STFU.

/Living a major medical hellride for the last 8 years
//No, the support is NOT always there no matter how damn hard you look
///People are not required to give a shiat, fine
////I'm not required to listen to sanctimonious bullshiat like that without calling it what it is, either
 
2013-06-23 11:47:37 AM  

Silly_Sot: Messiah Obama


That's when you admitted to believing that there are actually two different parties with completely different modus operandi and sort of stopped looking at the forest and started shilling for the bark on one tree.
 
2013-06-23 12:01:12 PM  

Rwa2play: This from someone that sits comfortably in his ivory tower.


I served 8 years in the Army. Lets hear about your military service.
 
2013-06-23 12:04:12 PM  
The problem isn't the Obama Messiah, or the Reagan Messiah, it's that we keep picking our messiahs out of cut out bins that have been thoroughly vetted by the people printing the money, guaranteeing that no matter who gets to sit in the chair for four years, none of their interests will be moved against.  Trying to change the world by voting is like trying to get laid by a supermodel by e-mailing your vote in on a beauty pageant.  The winner is gonna thank the little people and go and get as many beauty product endorsements as she can show up for, and retire before her pretty face is last week's darling.  Bonus, the aforementioned proprietors of US Inc. get enough free demographic info to last, yeah, four years.
 
2013-06-23 12:08:42 PM  
You know how every so often, some 6 figure a year plus lobby money mook will harrumph and get all "We feel that this [insert proffered  worrisome issue here] has been backgrounded too long and I, your fearless leader am determined to bring it to the fore!"?  That means that all the malarkey they got us all worked up about to GET that job is running out of urgency, so they gotta change the ViewMaster slide.
 
2013-06-23 12:27:45 PM  

Corn_Fed: People who supported the Iraq invasion back in 2003 were clueless swine.


And yet, none of them come forward now to claim their prize. Why is that.

We all know right wingers. Perhaps we should quit giving them a pass now.
 
2013-06-23 12:30:02 PM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: Seriously... all you back-seat pieces of shiat going on about what he should have done, and about how the support is there if you just look hard enough.  Here is a bowl of c*cks, now eat it.  You have no farking idea what the hell you are talking about, period.  I don't care where you've been or who you are, STFU.

/Living a major medical hellride for the last 8 years
//No, the support is NOT always there no matter how damn hard you look
///People are not required to give a shiat, fine
////I'm not required to listen to sanctimonious bullshiat like that without calling it what it is, either


You volunteered, farkstick. Look in the mirror, grab your gun, and go do something.

A whole big part of America likes to think it is so effing patriotic because its willing to go kill people overseas. Because it was dumb enough to believe obvious lies, and because it loves to think of itself as better than the rest of us.

Tell you what. Make your service REALLY count. Speak out about what you went through and why it is important we never put people through that again.

Or, keep being a farking victim blaming everyone else but yourself.

You enlisted. fark off.
 
2013-06-23 12:53:42 PM  

Vangor: While I hope a foolhardy hope no other servicemen and women take their lives, and I recognize there is a concern for glorification of suicide, I hope there is a flood of these letters being shared. We need significant reforms to our care for our troops in all areas, in the field and back home, but especially in psychological health. We should have been making significant reforms back towards Vietnam when what was happening first truly emerged.


The only thing that will change would be Congress passing a law making it illegal for veterans' next of kin to publish those suicide notes.

/cynic
 
2013-06-23 12:56:17 PM  

gnarr: STRYPERSWINE: bwilson27: Kurmudgeon: STRYPERSWINE: And now we're seeing his WMDs at work in Syria, as many suspected all along. Speaking of vindication.

Funny that, I just favorited you in dark red as "damnable liar".

Funny, I've got him favorited in dark red, too, as "Complete warmongering POS"

wow that's totally mature.  Nobody WANTS war.  Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does.  My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame.  And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another.  It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

What Saddam had was basically non-functional and outdated.   It's well known that Saddam's stalling and refusal to play by Bush's rules was largely motivated by a fear of looking weak to Iran, Iraq's chief rival in the region and a country with a vested interest in Iraq due to its Shia population, among other things.   Anyone with a basic understanding of the Arab concept of "saving face" will understand why Saddam was essentially between a "rock and a hard place" during this time.   Chemical weapons were widely used during the Iran-Iraq war and was likely one of the few deterrents that Saddam had for dealing with the Iranian problem.  His stockpiles had been severely, if not completely, reduced in the wake of the Gulf War and to admit so publicly would be a tremendous loss in power vis-à-vis Iran.    Of course, the threat of a US invasion was equally problematic, but perhaps Saddam thought the US population and UN would be able to stave off such a significant military action.    Saddam was a stubborn, proud little bastard and felt, perhaps through his own arrogance, it was better to stand up the US than weaken his position in the Middle East.   I assure you, however, that at no time did his stockpile of WMDs pose a clear an immediate threat to the United States, despite what Bush/Cheney tried to sell to the world.

Are you familia ...


While reading through the displays of massive ignorance in this thread I wanted to type ^^this^^ out. Glad to see you got there before I went all redundant on this thread.

Geopolitical actions have numerous variables involved. Most people, however, don't really pay attention to the many factors involved and instead just buy into very simple "A vs B" thinking thinking that is the product of propaganda. Blaming Saddam for our actions is the height of refusing to engage in any sort of honest self criticism. While there is much to be proud of in US history, there is also no shortage of ills we have committed (Guatamala, El Salvador, Argentina, Nicaragua, Iran, etc.) In the first few months/years after 9/11, attempts to try to understand the attacks as part of a larger picture in which the US has most certainly not always been "the good guy" were seen as treasonous and roundabout attempts to have the attacks justified. While painful, that kind of reflection could have helped us to reach out to a world that was also horrified at the attacks. For Christ's sake, the people of Iran mourned the attacks. Instead of reaching out to numerous hands that wanted to help us we instead said "fark you" to their sympathy. Bush and the neocons decided to cynically use 9/11 as a justification for a war against Iraq that had been advocated by the neocons since the mid to late 90s. And when much of the world said no, we said "fark you. You're either with us or against us." When the UN Security Council would not give legitimacy to aggression and invasion, we said "then fark you, you are now irrelevant."

I have not gone to war. I have not served in the military. My best friend is a wounded combat veteran and my brother currently serves. I've at least seen second hand what combat does to those who have participated in it. If we give a damn about the people willing to put their lives on the line on our behalf, we better make damn sure that it is necessary for our national security. Iraq posed no security threat to the US and going to war against them was purely by choice. And the wrong choice, mind you. It makes me angry to see my friend sometimes fly off the handle in irrational rage at things (he has a lot of mental issues post combat/post injury) because each time it happens I am reminded that he now suffers because a small clique of ideological radicals wanted to socially engineer the Middle East using our military as pawns for their ambitions.

Side note: the fact that the "liberal media" myth still persists even after the mainstream media simply acted as a liason for government pro-war propaganda regarding Iraq is a testament to how well propaganda, once internalized by enough rubes, becomes established "fact."
 
sen
2013-06-23 12:57:09 PM  
"While it is a nice thought to consider doing some good with my skills, experience, and killer instinct,..." "...What is really stopping me, though, is that I simply am too sick to be effective..."

He entertained his fantasies of going rogue and killing those who need killing and then killed himself. Eliminating the possibility of anything, ever. Military intelligence.
 
2013-06-23 01:02:15 PM  
There are no two parties.

There is one very large business concern.

And the election is the quadrennial company barbecue.

And if I can tell you who god is, what money is and how you're allowed to use it, and make laws that compel you to get your ass shot off to make sure I get to keep mine, then I own your ass, your roof, your children's children's children's sweat equity and the food in your mouth.  And I never have to work a day in my life.  And that's not a conspiracy, it's a business plan.  And war is highly profitable if you get to print the money.  And now, much to everybody's relief, I'm going to stop exhorting people to abandon a broken viewpoint on a meaningless system and got stock up on yard signs.  One from each candidate ought to be plenty.
 
2013-06-23 01:06:04 PM  
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/military/2011-06-19-Afghanistan-I r aq-Army-Rangers-amputee-Purple-Heart_n.htm

Meanwhile an amputee made it through RASP all over again in order to rejoin the regiment.

And the regiment is the only unit that has been in constant combat since the start of the WoT.

Anyone know what the regiments suicide rates are like?


Some people just aren't built for combat....or life, or hard choices, or can take being bullied etc.....
 
2013-06-23 01:10:53 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: bbfreak: Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq

A hell of a lot more Dems were against the Iraq war than republicans, including the Dem currently sitting in the farking White House, who made it a priority to end the war and finish the job of finding bin Laden instead -- you may have heard of him. I'm farking sick to death of this false moral equivalency. Both sides are opportunistic political bastards, yes, but most of the Dems who supported Iraq did so because the GOP created a climate of rage and fear that made being against Iraq political suicide for most of the people in Congress. Hell, Bush campaigned in 2000 on invading Iraq, and was gearing up to do so before 9/11 even happened. It was always about finishing the job his daddy never finished. And for that we got 4,000 dead Americans with zero WMD program dismantled, our reputation ruined by that embarrassing dog-and-pony show Powell presented to the UN, more al Qaeda in Iraq after we invaded than before, a whole section of Iraq essentially falling into Iranian hands, and a bunch of oil contracts handed over to the Chinese. Bravo. There's a whole new definition of stupidity reserved for people who still defend that war.


No. No he did not. He campaigned on having a "humble foreign policy" and campaigned against nation building. If you see my post above, you can see my feelings about the war. Don't use false claims in your arguments. There is no shortage of fact that condemns the march to war in Iraq, the Bush administration, and the neoconservatives. Don't repeat the above falsehood ever again. Doing so allows a pro-war supporter to discredit that one falsehood (correctly) and, by extension, imply that your other arguments are also based on falsehoods.
 
2013-06-23 01:13:16 PM  

Giltric: Some people just aren't built for combat....or life, or hard choices, or can take being bullied etc.....


Yeah, cause war and pushing people around is like.. LIFE man!.  Ever wonder who packaged and sold that crock of sh*t?

That being said, I don't think it was a matter of missing body parts.
 
2013-06-23 01:28:25 PM  

omeganuepsilon: Both Bushes picked their things, fairly obviously selfish things.


What? Bush Sr.'s Iraq war was pretty well justified. Hell, he even did the smart thing and got the fark out when the time was right.
 
2013-06-23 01:31:59 PM  

bunner: The problem isn't the Obama Messiah, or the Reagan Messiah, it's that we keep picking our messiahs out of cut out bins that have been thoroughly vetted by the people printing the money, guaranteeing that no matter who gets to sit in the chair for four years, none of their interests will be moved against.  ...


I've considered this too:
• Iran has a Supreme Council which vets candidates, and determines who will be able to stand at election.
• China has a ruling council as well which allows controlled elections.
• The US also has a more subtle system, consisting of party bosses, big donors and big media. Lawrence Lessig, focusing on the big donors, talks about it in a TED talk. This system also serves as a ruling council which de facto vets candidates.

I have to wonder if this "ruling council" system is something societies evolve/devolve towards.
 
2013-06-23 01:32:32 PM  
"During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of."

Conspiracy deniers ('Tin foil hats!  Hurr hurr derp!!") three steps forward, march.
 
2013-06-23 01:35:01 PM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.



You have kool-aid stains around your mouth.
 
2013-06-23 01:35:50 PM  

Wookie_Jesus: sad,
but if he really wanted to make a point he should have documented and reported the war crimes he was forced to participate in.
this is the way that change is made. Obit manifestos with no proof ring hollow on the wrapped in stars and stripes "real merikuns".
it is a shame that so many people like being lied to because it makes them feel safe and that anyone one, on either side, has to die for a pack of lies.
the jokes on us, because we are so afraid of the other we forgot that we were supposed to be the good guy.
$$$$$$$$$$$$


The Abu Ghraib whistleblower photographer got visual proof; isn't he still in hiding?
 
2013-06-23 01:37:38 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.


So you've never actually experienced the sort of pain that comes when your brain farks up. Good to know. Tell me, do you blame people with broken legs for not being able to walk, too?

/Farkwit
//Seriously. People do not choose suicide as 'the easy way out'. They choose to kill themselves because  their brains are not farking working. Blaming them for that is abhorrent.
 
2013-06-23 01:41:06 PM  

JungleBoogie: I have to wonder if this "ruling council" system is something societies evolve/devolve towards.


It all goes back to tribal aspects wherein a collection of those deemed to have the most wisdom and memory of tradition must test those who would aspire to lead.  Just replace wisdom with money and the longest memory with the most effective public relations.
 
2013-06-23 01:43:29 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: I like how he references being abandoned by those who took the easy way out, and then takes the easy way out.  I have no sympathy for anyone who takes their own life.  I've known people who've succeeded, known folks who've failed.  I've seen the support systems, experienced the support systems, and know that if you truly want help, there is always someone willing.


So if someone without a job who is standing on a bridge uses the call box and says that they're thinking of kiling themselves because they don't have a job, the responders will give them a job instead of arresting and jailing them?
 
2013-06-23 01:44:27 PM  
For all of our "YOUTH IS KING" crap in this country, we still turn to the hoary heads when we ask "how does this sh*t really work?"
 
2013-06-23 01:44:45 PM  

trappedspirit: FLMountainMan: Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.

And yet the death rate is at an all-time low, as well as warfare, while standards of living are better than ever.

All we have to fear is fear itself


Proving that this is The Best Of All Possible Worlds.
 
2013-06-23 01:52:15 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: "During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of."

Conspiracy deniers ('Tin foil hats!  Hurr hurr derp!!") three steps forward, march.


Wouldn't it have been more helpful if he had documented the war crimes instead of killing himself?

I'd wager his talk of war crimes is just the hyperbole and rhetoric that the left usually spouts with no real documentation to back it up.

If there were actual war crimes don't you think that someone would have filed charges by now? We have a very divided political system with Rs and Ds.....wouldn't the Ds have filed something against Bush in order to get back at the Rs for stonewalling 0bama?
 
2013-06-23 01:54:07 PM  

bunner: JungleBoogie: I have to wonder if this "ruling council" system is something societies evolve/devolve towards.

It all goes back to tribal aspects wherein a collection of those deemed to have the most wisdom and memory of tradition must test those who would aspire to lead.  Just replace wisdom with money and the longest memory with the most effective public relations.


Give anyone power, and another with $$ and a need, and corruption will soon follow, from the lowliest tribe to the heads of nations.
 
2013-06-23 01:55:14 PM  

OgreMagi: sendtodave: OgreMagi: Fark Congress. Fark Obama (he is the commander in chief). And fark the military brass for allowing these inhumane actions to happe

Why does "Fark Obama" need clarification?

Because some people seem to forget that when it comes down to it, the president is in charge of the military.  He could, with a single command, put a stop to the abuse of our soldiers by "the system".


media.tumblr.com

And the military and spook agencies, in turn, could put a stop to him.


/Cue Bill Hicks video
 
2013-06-23 01:55:50 PM  

bunner: JungleBoogie: I have to wonder if this "ruling council" system is something societies evolve/devolve towards.

It all goes back to tribal aspects wherein a collection of those deemed to have the most wisdom and memory of tradition must test those who would aspire to lead.  Just replace wisdom with money and the longest memory with the most effective public relations.


Democracy is feared by the powerful. Our electoral system was designed from the beginning to respresent the upper tiers of society. Voting was limited to white male land-owners, ie, those already at the top. In the debates on the Constitution, Madison pointed out that if elections in England "were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place," giving land to the landless. The Constitution was designed to prevent such "injustice" and "secure the permanent interests of the country," which are property rights.

After all, if poor people can vote, they just might try to do something about their poverty. Protecting the already well-to-do was seen as a requirement for creating a system of government with minor elements of democracy. Also, the system was initially designed so that even land-owning white males couldn't vote for Senators. They already had the House, after all. Gotta make sure that only the "right" people get to have the greater power that is invested in the Senate.

We have, very slowly, begun to make our system more accessible to those initially prevented, by design, from participation. However, we have a long, long way to go before policies are actually reflective of popular will.
 
2013-06-23 02:05:47 PM  
"....now when a politician yells, "To Arms!", they can't say that to me."

1.bp.blogspot.com

-- from a poem written by a Union Civil War soldier who lost a limb at Chancellorsville, his first battle.
 
2013-06-23 02:09:22 PM  

Giltric: I'd wager his talk of war crimes is just the hyperbole and rhetoric that the left usually spouts with no real documentation to back it up.


Every military on earth, from the beginning of time, has and will commit war crimes. For those interested, there's always documentation.
 
2013-06-23 02:09:48 PM  

bwilson27: Give anyone power, and another with $$ and a need, and corruption will soon follow, from the lowliest tribe to the heads of nations.


So far.  Makes makes we wonder why people are so afraid of admitting that, empirically, as a species, we couldn't run a dry cleaners, let alone a fair society.
 
2013-06-23 02:13:00 PM  

machoprogrammer: omeganuepsilon: Both Bushes picked their things, fairly obviously selfish things.

What? Bush Sr.'s Iraq war was pretty well justified. Hell, he even did the smart thing and got the fark out when the time was right.


Doesn't mean he didn't do it for his own reasons.
 
2013-06-23 02:18:04 PM  

bunner: bwilson27: Give anyone power, and another with $$ and a need, and corruption will soon follow, from the lowliest tribe to the heads of nations.

So far.  Makes makes we wonder why people are so afraid of admitting that, empirically, as a species, we couldn't run a dry cleaners, let alone a fair society.


There's the crux. There's the reason it continually perpetuates itself. The one with $$$ is usually the one screaming the loudest that everyone should be AFRAID. Ignorant and afraid.
 
2013-06-23 02:18:09 PM  

yourmomlovestetris: What gets me is that there are ideologues who want to throw women into this combat meat grinder. And they'll succeed too, even if they have to lower the physical standards of what it takes to be a combat soldier.

On the upside, once women start coming home from the war with blown off limbs, damaged souls and mangled faces, maybe then someone will be motivated to DO SOMETHING for our injured veterans...


Give them transvaginal  ultrsounds?
 
2013-06-23 02:22:13 PM  
Kids, do not enlist.  It's a deal with the Devil.  If the draft returns, flee the country.
 
2013-06-23 02:23:45 PM  

ladyfortuna: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Why would you ruin such an awesome natural feature of the earth by poisoning it with that?

And I guess the nuke would be bad for it, too.


No need to nuke them, just throw them into Lake Karachi.
 
2013-06-23 02:28:58 PM  
Astorix:

No need to nuke them, just throw them into Lake Karachi.

Or send them into Chicago, past nightfall, with nothing but the clothes on their piggy backs.
 
2013-06-23 02:29:56 PM  

Cataholic: Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?

My Uncle is pushing 90.  While I sympathize with the soldier who wrote this letter, during the Battle of the Bulge my Uncle experienced 10x worse than anything any soldier sees today.  He still wakes up in the middle of the night screaming.  His buddies were no different.  I just think this generation is much more fragile than his.  In his time, people died at home, not in hospitals.  Your meat didn't come in neatly wrapped plastic.  People and horses were routinely killed by trains on public streets.  Everything today is sterile and the unpleasantries of life are well hidden from view.


You're repeating the asinine "your war wasn't a REAL war" remarks WW II vets gave to returning Korea and Vietnam vets.

War grinds people down.  Some people are more durable, but most ground combat servicemen will succumb in one way or another eventually.  The "I was at Iwo Jima, so notwithstanding you were at Chosin or Hue, you're a pussy" conceit misses the point.  WW II battles may have seen more casualties, but that would be cold comfort if time and fate led to your death, injury or mental damage in a 'lesser' war.  Remember that few WW II riflemen were still on the line a month after first seeing it, in a war which lasted years.  Although seeing a finite one-year tour of duty in Korea and VN, the odds were still against US riflemen escaping death or injury.  Odds were better for Iraq and Afghan vets, but they had to do multiple tours of a year each, increasing the chances of breakdown.
 
2013-06-23 02:31:39 PM  
Exhibit A - ZZZZZ in Bush & Cheney's warcrimes trials.   

/God bless his family.
//And him, of course.
 
2013-06-23 02:32:26 PM  

bwilson27: bunner: bwilson27: Give anyone power, and another with $$ and a need, and corruption will soon follow, from the lowliest tribe to the heads of nations.

So far.  Makes makes we wonder why people are so afraid of admitting that, empirically, as a species, we couldn't run a dry cleaners, let alone a fair society.

There's the crux. There's the reason it continually perpetuates itself. The one with $$$ is usually the one screaming the loudest that everyone should be AFRAID. Ignorant and afraid.


Yeah, marketing, eh?  *sigh*  There is but one cure for avarice, duplicity, hubris and cruelty.  Not wanting to do that sh*t.   .
 
2013-06-23 02:34:56 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: that would be cold comfort if time and fate led to your death, injury or mental damage in a 'lesser' war.


There is no such thing as a lesser war.  The second people start falling over or burying their head in their hand from the utter horror, it's a war.
 
2013-06-23 02:54:38 PM  
If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.
 
2013-06-23 03:10:00 PM  
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

No shiat.  My doc told me at last month's appt. that pharmacies might start refusing to fill my opiate meds out of fear of the DEA.

The DEA: 40 years, untold billions of dollars wasted, untold lives ruined.  Fark them to hell.

/5 spinal surgeries, diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondilitis, a chronic inflammation of the muscles of the spine.  The muscles get inflamed and press or squeeze the nerves, leading to crippling pain.  And it's a hard choice between the pain or the side-effects of opiate use.
 
2013-06-23 03:19:06 PM  

indy_kid: "Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

No shiat.  My doc told me at last month's appt. that pharmacies might start refusing to fill my opiate meds out of fear of the DEA.

The DEA: 40 years, untold billions of dollars wasted, untold lives ruined.  Fark them to hell.

/5 spinal surgeries, diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondilitis, a chronic inflammation of the muscles of the spine.  The muscles get inflamed and press or squeeze the nerves, leading to crippling pain.  And it's a hard choice between the pain or the side-effects of opiate use.


I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.
 
2013-06-23 03:25:46 PM  
Giltric:

I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.


You get Medical Marijuana out of this?:
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured "overprescribing epidemic," which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak. "

Or is it just that you believe the only thing such a suicidal loser could possibly want was pot? Is that it?
 
2013-06-23 03:29:20 PM  

limboslam: Hey, do any former insurgents or taliban or whatever suffer from ptsd?


I suspect that those who fight because of religious beliefs have a far lower rate of PTSD.  "God is on our side!  Whatever we do - whatever - has been ordained by God!  We are doing His work!"

Takes all responsibility out of one's hands, doesn't it?  I'm sure Crusaders of centuries past slept the sleep of the righteous.
 
2013-06-23 03:29:51 PM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Maybe it has to do with the fact that WW II vets came back to a ticker tape parade and an economic boom plus newly put in place benefits such as the GI bill. Vietnam vets came back to being spat on and being called baby killers. Iraq vets  came back to a global economic depression and a war soured, embarrassed public
 
2013-06-23 03:32:46 PM  
Astorix:

Maybe it has to do with the fact that WW II vets came back to a ticker tape parade and an economic boom plus newly put in place benefits such as the GI bill. Vietnam vets came back to being spat on and being called baby killers. Iraq vets  came back to a global economic depression and a war soured, embarrassed public

Showing that, perhaps, useless wars are.... Useless.
 
2013-06-23 03:37:57 PM  

bwilson27: Giltric:

I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.


You get Medical Marijuana out of this?:
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured "overprescribing epidemic," which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak. "

Or is it just that you believe the only thing such a suicidal loser could possibly want was pot? Is that it?


The DEA isn't clamping down on Lipitor doctor shopping. They are clamping down on the over prescribing of opiates, narcotics, pain meds etc.... which is a very real problem. Like they say a small number of people ruin it for everyone else. If you have ever partaking of illicit prescription use then maybe you should share some of the blame as to why this vet didn't get the "help" he needed.

Which symptoms are doctors not trying to control? Pain? Rectal Leakage? Asthma?

Suicide note is lacking a lot of details. The guy could already be hooked on pain meds and is upset he can't get his fix anymore. Can junkies tell the difference between pain and "pain"?

Has anyone who served tried looking the guy up on AKO?
 
2013-06-23 03:47:39 PM  

Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:

I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.


You get Medical Marijuana out of this?:
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured "overprescribing epidemic," which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak. "

Or is it just that you believe the only thing such a suicidal loser could possibly want was pot? Is that it?

The DEA isn't clamping down on Lipitor doctor shopping. They are clamping down on the over prescribing of opiates, narcotics, pain meds etc.... which is a very real problem. Like they say a small number of people ruin it for everyone else. If you have ever partaking of illicit prescription use then maybe you should share some of the blame as to why this vet didn't get the "help" he needed.

Which symptoms are doctors not trying to control? Pain? Rectal Leakage? Asthma?

Suicide note is lacking a lot of details. The guy could already be hooked on pain meds and is upset he can't get his fix anymore. Can junkies tell the difference between pain and "pain"?

Has anyone who served tried looking the guy up on AKO?


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?
 
2013-06-23 03:53:56 PM  

bwilson27: Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?



Everyday.

Doesn't everyone?
 
2013-06-23 04:00:28 PM  

jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.


This.
 
2013-06-23 04:00:29 PM  

Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?


Everyday.

Doesn't everyone?


For some it's mostly located in the bowel region.... For others...
 
2013-06-23 04:01:32 PM  

machoprogrammer: jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.

This.


Yeah, farker should have killed himself for being such a selfish prick.
 
2013-06-23 04:04:54 PM  

jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.


Torture is a war crime. Just so ya know.
 
2013-06-23 04:09:43 PM  

i.r.id10t: I think that today the numbers are up for 3 reasons - better diagnostics, increased reporting, and air travel.

Air travel? Yup. WW2 and parts of Korea, when you finally got sent home you spent weeks on board a ship with thousands of guys who had just come from being thru the same hellish shiat you went thru. Gave you time to calm down, decompress, talk about it some wtih people that were there. But air travel, and now faster cheaper air travel, means that someone getting shot at this morning could be home in under 48 hours. No time to decompress, no time to talk, just too quick of a
transition.


On Killing, by Dave Grossman (Amazon link) makes the same point. And it's probably one worth looking at. The author was in the Army Rangers for over 10 years and interviewed many veterans. He said that the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

It'd probably be worth trying. Not sure what if anything they've actually done with it, since I read the book ~8 years ago.
 
2013-06-23 04:15:59 PM  
danceswithcrows:the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

But they DO have this service for veterans returning home- It's called Re-enlisting! Get with the program!
 
2013-06-23 04:20:30 PM  

DVOM: jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.

Torture is a war crime. Just so ya know.


As is unlawful invasion. I believe the technical term for it is "aggression.

Kinda ironic given that aggression was the justification for Desert Storm.

It's not a crime when we do it!
 
2013-06-23 04:23:20 PM  
So?

If you can't hang, kill yourself?

Coward. It takes more to live than die.

But I would like to thank him for his service.

Oh wait, it's a gawker story. Filthy liars lying about serving this country.
 
2013-06-23 04:24:15 PM  

Slam1263: So?

If you can't hang, kill yourself?

Coward. It takes more to live than die.

But I would like to thank him for his service.

Oh wait, it's a gawker story. Filthy liars lying about serving this country.


You sound scary and tough.
 
2013-06-23 04:44:23 PM  
They already do post-deployment therapy and have a cool down period during debriefing. I've read two of Grossman's books, he works off anecdotal evidence and uses the concept of the warrior ethos. He bases much of his opinions on hearsay and S.L.A. Marshall's studies, which under critical review does not stand up (he really did make up numbers). The USMC has adopted this philosophy for years, training recruits to keep the warrior mindset in every facet of life, building the bravado of them being the sheepdogs against the wolves, which makes the general public sheep in that mindset. Its the reason the USMC MCMAP was implemented in a day and age where combat rarely (if ever) goes hand in hand.

Imprinting the warrior ethos and groupthink that follows it is part of the problem. After deployment, some tend to be resentful of the "sheep" and I doubt that being around the other troops exclusively for the last year is an answer to helping them get out of the "us or them" mindset of a deployment. Many LEOs tend to have the same mindset, and it breeds resentment and abuse of power.

Grossman also is beating the dead horse saying that first person shooters are the cause of the school shootings and gun violence, although studies keep refuting this talking point. He has been on Fox News multiple times proclaiming video games are murder simulators, all while going around the country lecturing about how the killer elite are mentally/morally stronger than the sheep.
 
2013-06-23 04:44:31 PM  
It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."
 
2013-06-23 04:48:59 PM  

Hector Remarkable: It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."


"Crime and Peace" has got to be my favorite Russian film. He really had a knack for long shots.
 
2013-06-23 04:50:13 PM  
Won't somebody think of the defense contractors?!? Their families need yachts. How are they going to get those without killing many innocent people?
 
2013-06-23 04:58:21 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Won't somebody think of the defense contractors?!? Their families need yachts. How are they going to get those without killing many innocent people?


They get that money whether peace time or war time. They do make some extra money when we face certain situations that require a different approach or a change in tactics, defenses etc.....

Like IEDs being a problem and in order to increase warfighter survivability we have to design vehicles like the MRAP.

Wars will always have to be fought, some for the right reasons and some for the wrong reasons. No matter what the reason is it not a good idea to protect those who choose to serve their country? They don't get to pick and choose where they get sent, but it is paramount that we support them with better tech, gear, science etc....
 
2013-06-23 05:35:40 PM  

Hector Remarkable: It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."


Meh.  We stopped slavery with war, we stopped Hitler, etc.  Violence does solve some problems.
Any blanket absolute that says otherwise is naive at best, a study in delusion at worst.
 
2013-06-23 05:51:53 PM  

bunner: There are no two parties.

There is one very large business concern.

And the election is the quadrennial company barbecue.

And if I can tell you who god is, what money is and how you're allowed to use it, and make laws that compel you to get your ass shot off to make sure I get to keep mine, then I own your ass, your roof, your children's children's children's sweat equity and the food in your mouth.  And I never have to work a day in my life.  And that's not a conspiracy, it's a business plan.  And war is highly profitable if you get to print the money.  And now, much to everybody's relief, I'm going to stop exhorting people to abandon a broken viewpoint on a meaningless system and got stock up on yard signs.  One from each candidate ought to be plenty.


You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.
 
2013-06-23 06:14:04 PM  
At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.
 
2013-06-23 06:32:57 PM  

Kittypie070: bunner: There are no two parties.

There is one very large business concern.

And the election is the quadrennial company barbecue.

And if I can tell you who god is, what money is and how you're allowed to use it, and make laws that compel you to get your ass shot off to make sure I get to keep mine, then I own your ass, your roof, your children's children's children's sweat equity and the food in your mouth.  And I never have to work a day in my life.  And that's not a conspiracy, it's a business plan.  And war is highly profitable if you get to print the money.  And now, much to everybody's relief, I'm going to stop exhorting people to abandon a broken viewpoint on a meaningless system and got stock up on yard signs.  One from each candidate ought to be plenty.

You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.


The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.
 
2013-06-23 06:34:55 PM  

Jument: At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.


I couldn't do military service because a car wreck served to make me medically unfit.

However, I would serve and do support the military because I believe in protecting the US. Plus, getting paid to shoot at and blow shiat up? Best job ever.
 
2013-06-23 06:55:57 PM  

danceswithcrows: i.r.id10t: I think that today the numbers are up for 3 reasons - better diagnostics, increased reporting, and air travel.

Air travel? Yup. WW2 and parts of Korea, when you finally got sent home you spent weeks on board a ship with thousands of guys who had just come from being thru the same hellish shiat you went thru. Gave you time to calm down, decompress, talk about it some wtih people that were there. But air travel, and now faster cheaper air travel, means that someone getting shot at this morning could be home in under 48 hours. No time to decompress, no time to talk, just too quick of a
transition.

On Killing, by Dave Grossman (Amazon link) makes the same point. And it's probably one worth looking at. The author was in the Army Rangers for over 10 years and interviewed many veterans. He said that the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

It'd probably be worth trying. Not sure what if anything they've actually done with it, since I read the book ~8 years ago.


IIRC, they're called Wounded Warrior Battalions.  They get mixed reviews.
 
2013-06-23 06:56:35 PM  

Bravo Two: Kittypie070: You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.


The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.


It's not the elected officials I'm concerned about.

Sorry, incorrect target.

I want their big bucks backers DISPOSED OF and their legal constructs broken into very small pieces.

Permanently.
 
2013-06-23 07:26:58 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: This from someone that sits comfortably in his ivory tower.

I served 8 years in the Army. Lets hear about your military service.


And yet you don't see the irony in his message, do you?
 
2013-06-23 07:28:27 PM  

bwilson27: Astorix:

No need to nuke them, just throw them into Lake Karachi.

Or send them into Chicago, past nightfall, with nothing but the clothes on their piggy backs.


Better yet, send them into the favelas of Rio de Janeiro...at night...with no cops around.
 
2013-06-23 07:30:26 PM  

Jument: At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.


The point of any military or police force is to be ready when called upon.  That means constant training and informing the government of it's capabilities.  If no one joins because we're not under attack, when next week/month/year/decade rolls around, we will have no defenses.

There is no one being murdered in my town right this moment, but the police are a necessary force to maintain.  They don't magically appear in numbers and trained enough to do their job.

As for your latter note:
War is a continuation of politics by other means.

As for fighting overseas, there is plenty reason.  Not that all of our excuses are legit(I won't try to defend the government(ie politicians) that is in control, only our military members), it can happen for a genuinely good reason and is even expected of the powerful.  Putting a halt to things like slavery or oppression or outright slaughter of civilian populations.

It is an extension of our society but on a larger scale.  It is the big brother's duty to protect his little brother.
Noble enough in almost all civilizations around the globe.
 
2013-06-23 07:32:24 PM  

Rwa2play: favelas of Rio de Janeiro


Why give them a chance like that? They deserve Chicago and nothing better!
 
2013-06-23 08:12:00 PM  

Kittypie070: Bravo Two: Kittypie070: You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.

The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.

It's not the elected officials I'm concerned about.

Sorry, incorrect target.

I want their big bucks backers DISPOSED OF and their legal constructs broken into very small pieces.

Permanently.


So, we institute a new form of big game hunting?
 
2013-06-23 09:06:06 PM  

the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way


Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?
 
2013-06-23 09:12:23 PM  

metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?


shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?
 
2013-06-23 10:06:19 PM  

Kittypie070: Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.


Yeah?  Well I'm not quite sure when I got elected messiah on a web site mostly populated with people who use it t act like dicks from their mom's dining room, but why don't you point your anger and the people fu*king the dog and not the guy who pointed it out?    :   /
 
2013-06-23 10:17:13 PM  

Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?


You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.
 
2013-06-23 10:24:42 PM  
There has been a lot of journalists covering our mistakes made over there. However the stories are in books like blackwater and big boy rules.Rolling stone has also touched on it. http://www.rollingstone.com/kill-team
 
2013-06-23 10:27:04 PM  

metal_gear: Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?

You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.


Leaking documents is a thing now. Don't you know?
 
2013-06-23 11:00:55 PM  

metal_gear: Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?

You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.


If it was such a mental and emotional burden, he should have spoke up sooner.
 
2013-06-23 11:40:05 PM  

bwilson27: But they DO have this service for veterans returning home- It's called Re-enlisting! Get with the program!


Uh no.  Reenlisting is a administrative action.  Back stateside, other than the uniform I work in, I might as well be a civilian for what I generally do.  Over in the desert?  That's where the stuff is different.  The idea behind decompression is that you put returning soldiers in a different environment rather than simply releasing them effectively straight from the desert back into civilian society.  24-72 hours of flying/waiting in airports isn't enough.

BarkingUnicorn: IIRC, they're called Wounded Warrior Battalions. They get mixed reviews.


Those are for wounded soldiers.  The idea behind longer decompression is that you have it for ALL soldiers, and even soldiers in "wounded warrior battalions" have easy access to civilian facilities/living.
 
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