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(Gawker)   "I am sorry that it has come to this." One of the 22-a-day's letter   (gawker.com) divider line 389
    More: Sad, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Mosul, Joint Special Operations Command, widows and orphans, international incidents, Dungeons & Dragons deities, sufficient reason  
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24285 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 12:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 03:29:51 PM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Maybe it has to do with the fact that WW II vets came back to a ticker tape parade and an economic boom plus newly put in place benefits such as the GI bill. Vietnam vets came back to being spat on and being called baby killers. Iraq vets  came back to a global economic depression and a war soured, embarrassed public
 
2013-06-23 03:32:46 PM  
Astorix:

Maybe it has to do with the fact that WW II vets came back to a ticker tape parade and an economic boom plus newly put in place benefits such as the GI bill. Vietnam vets came back to being spat on and being called baby killers. Iraq vets  came back to a global economic depression and a war soured, embarrassed public

Showing that, perhaps, useless wars are.... Useless.
 
2013-06-23 03:37:57 PM  

bwilson27: Giltric:

I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.


You get Medical Marijuana out of this?:
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured "overprescribing epidemic," which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak. "

Or is it just that you believe the only thing such a suicidal loser could possibly want was pot? Is that it?


The DEA isn't clamping down on Lipitor doctor shopping. They are clamping down on the over prescribing of opiates, narcotics, pain meds etc.... which is a very real problem. Like they say a small number of people ruin it for everyone else. If you have ever partaking of illicit prescription use then maybe you should share some of the blame as to why this vet didn't get the "help" he needed.

Which symptoms are doctors not trying to control? Pain? Rectal Leakage? Asthma?

Suicide note is lacking a lot of details. The guy could already be hooked on pain meds and is upset he can't get his fix anymore. Can junkies tell the difference between pain and "pain"?

Has anyone who served tried looking the guy up on AKO?
 
2013-06-23 03:47:39 PM  

Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:

I figured the suicidal soldier was referencing medical marijuana.


You get Medical Marijuana out of this?:
"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured "overprescribing epidemic," which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak. "

Or is it just that you believe the only thing such a suicidal loser could possibly want was pot? Is that it?

The DEA isn't clamping down on Lipitor doctor shopping. They are clamping down on the over prescribing of opiates, narcotics, pain meds etc.... which is a very real problem. Like they say a small number of people ruin it for everyone else. If you have ever partaking of illicit prescription use then maybe you should share some of the blame as to why this vet didn't get the "help" he needed.

Which symptoms are doctors not trying to control? Pain? Rectal Leakage? Asthma?

Suicide note is lacking a lot of details. The guy could already be hooked on pain meds and is upset he can't get his fix anymore. Can junkies tell the difference between pain and "pain"?

Has anyone who served tried looking the guy up on AKO?


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?
 
2013-06-23 03:53:56 PM  

bwilson27: Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?



Everyday.

Doesn't everyone?
 
2013-06-23 04:00:28 PM  

jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.


This.
 
2013-06-23 04:00:29 PM  

Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric: bwilson27: Giltric:


Or you could be completely full of shiat, ever considered that?


Everyday.

Doesn't everyone?


For some it's mostly located in the bowel region.... For others...
 
2013-06-23 04:01:32 PM  

machoprogrammer: jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.

This.


Yeah, farker should have killed himself for being such a selfish prick.
 
2013-06-23 04:04:54 PM  

jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.


Torture is a war crime. Just so ya know.
 
2013-06-23 04:09:43 PM  

i.r.id10t: I think that today the numbers are up for 3 reasons - better diagnostics, increased reporting, and air travel.

Air travel? Yup. WW2 and parts of Korea, when you finally got sent home you spent weeks on board a ship with thousands of guys who had just come from being thru the same hellish shiat you went thru. Gave you time to calm down, decompress, talk about it some wtih people that were there. But air travel, and now faster cheaper air travel, means that someone getting shot at this morning could be home in under 48 hours. No time to decompress, no time to talk, just too quick of a
transition.


On Killing, by Dave Grossman (Amazon link) makes the same point. And it's probably one worth looking at. The author was in the Army Rangers for over 10 years and interviewed many veterans. He said that the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

It'd probably be worth trying. Not sure what if anything they've actually done with it, since I read the book ~8 years ago.
 
2013-06-23 04:15:59 PM  
danceswithcrows:the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

But they DO have this service for veterans returning home- It's called Re-enlisting! Get with the program!
 
2013-06-23 04:20:30 PM  

DVOM: jmr61: If he witnessed war crimes he had a duty to speak out instead of making vague accusations.

I, for one, would like to know if my government is sanctioning war crimes. I wish he would have spoken up.

Torture is a war crime. Just so ya know.


As is unlawful invasion. I believe the technical term for it is "aggression.

Kinda ironic given that aggression was the justification for Desert Storm.

It's not a crime when we do it!
 
2013-06-23 04:23:20 PM  
So?

If you can't hang, kill yourself?

Coward. It takes more to live than die.

But I would like to thank him for his service.

Oh wait, it's a gawker story. Filthy liars lying about serving this country.
 
2013-06-23 04:24:15 PM  

Slam1263: So?

If you can't hang, kill yourself?

Coward. It takes more to live than die.

But I would like to thank him for his service.

Oh wait, it's a gawker story. Filthy liars lying about serving this country.


You sound scary and tough.
 
2013-06-23 04:44:23 PM  
They already do post-deployment therapy and have a cool down period during debriefing. I've read two of Grossman's books, he works off anecdotal evidence and uses the concept of the warrior ethos. He bases much of his opinions on hearsay and S.L.A. Marshall's studies, which under critical review does not stand up (he really did make up numbers). The USMC has adopted this philosophy for years, training recruits to keep the warrior mindset in every facet of life, building the bravado of them being the sheepdogs against the wolves, which makes the general public sheep in that mindset. Its the reason the USMC MCMAP was implemented in a day and age where combat rarely (if ever) goes hand in hand.

Imprinting the warrior ethos and groupthink that follows it is part of the problem. After deployment, some tend to be resentful of the "sheep" and I doubt that being around the other troops exclusively for the last year is an answer to helping them get out of the "us or them" mindset of a deployment. Many LEOs tend to have the same mindset, and it breeds resentment and abuse of power.

Grossman also is beating the dead horse saying that first person shooters are the cause of the school shootings and gun violence, although studies keep refuting this talking point. He has been on Fox News multiple times proclaiming video games are murder simulators, all while going around the country lecturing about how the killer elite are mentally/morally stronger than the sheep.
 
2013-06-23 04:44:31 PM  
It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."
 
2013-06-23 04:48:59 PM  

Hector Remarkable: It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."


"Crime and Peace" has got to be my favorite Russian film. He really had a knack for long shots.
 
2013-06-23 04:50:13 PM  
Won't somebody think of the defense contractors?!? Their families need yachts. How are they going to get those without killing many innocent people?
 
2013-06-23 04:58:21 PM  

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Won't somebody think of the defense contractors?!? Their families need yachts. How are they going to get those without killing many innocent people?


They get that money whether peace time or war time. They do make some extra money when we face certain situations that require a different approach or a change in tactics, defenses etc.....

Like IEDs being a problem and in order to increase warfighter survivability we have to design vehicles like the MRAP.

Wars will always have to be fought, some for the right reasons and some for the wrong reasons. No matter what the reason is it not a good idea to protect those who choose to serve their country? They don't get to pick and choose where they get sent, but it is paramount that we support them with better tech, gear, science etc....
 
2013-06-23 05:35:40 PM  

Hector Remarkable: It's like Tolstoy said, "War - what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. Say it again."


Meh.  We stopped slavery with war, we stopped Hitler, etc.  Violence does solve some problems.
Any blanket absolute that says otherwise is naive at best, a study in delusion at worst.
 
2013-06-23 05:51:53 PM  

bunner: There are no two parties.

There is one very large business concern.

And the election is the quadrennial company barbecue.

And if I can tell you who god is, what money is and how you're allowed to use it, and make laws that compel you to get your ass shot off to make sure I get to keep mine, then I own your ass, your roof, your children's children's children's sweat equity and the food in your mouth.  And I never have to work a day in my life.  And that's not a conspiracy, it's a business plan.  And war is highly profitable if you get to print the money.  And now, much to everybody's relief, I'm going to stop exhorting people to abandon a broken viewpoint on a meaningless system and got stock up on yard signs.  One from each candidate ought to be plenty.


You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.
 
2013-06-23 06:14:04 PM  
At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.
 
2013-06-23 06:32:57 PM  

Kittypie070: bunner: There are no two parties.

There is one very large business concern.

And the election is the quadrennial company barbecue.

And if I can tell you who god is, what money is and how you're allowed to use it, and make laws that compel you to get your ass shot off to make sure I get to keep mine, then I own your ass, your roof, your children's children's children's sweat equity and the food in your mouth.  And I never have to work a day in my life.  And that's not a conspiracy, it's a business plan.  And war is highly profitable if you get to print the money.  And now, much to everybody's relief, I'm going to stop exhorting people to abandon a broken viewpoint on a meaningless system and got stock up on yard signs.  One from each candidate ought to be plenty.

You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.


The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.
 
2013-06-23 06:34:55 PM  

Jument: At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.


I couldn't do military service because a car wreck served to make me medically unfit.

However, I would serve and do support the military because I believe in protecting the US. Plus, getting paid to shoot at and blow shiat up? Best job ever.
 
2013-06-23 06:55:57 PM  

danceswithcrows: i.r.id10t: I think that today the numbers are up for 3 reasons - better diagnostics, increased reporting, and air travel.

Air travel? Yup. WW2 and parts of Korea, when you finally got sent home you spent weeks on board a ship with thousands of guys who had just come from being thru the same hellish shiat you went thru. Gave you time to calm down, decompress, talk about it some wtih people that were there. But air travel, and now faster cheaper air travel, means that someone getting shot at this morning could be home in under 48 hours. No time to decompress, no time to talk, just too quick of a
transition.

On Killing, by Dave Grossman (Amazon link) makes the same point. And it's probably one worth looking at. The author was in the Army Rangers for over 10 years and interviewed many veterans. He said that the Army could (probably) make PTSD less severe by having some sort of "decompression period" for folks getting out of a combat zone, where they spent several weeks around people who'd been in the same sort of shiat they'd recently been in, and had ample time to talk/gripe/biatch about it.

It'd probably be worth trying. Not sure what if anything they've actually done with it, since I read the book ~8 years ago.


IIRC, they're called Wounded Warrior Battalions.  They get mixed reviews.
 
2013-06-23 06:56:35 PM  

Bravo Two: Kittypie070: You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.


The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.


It's not the elected officials I'm concerned about.

Sorry, incorrect target.

I want their big bucks backers DISPOSED OF and their legal constructs broken into very small pieces.

Permanently.
 
2013-06-23 07:26:58 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: This from someone that sits comfortably in his ivory tower.

I served 8 years in the Army. Lets hear about your military service.


And yet you don't see the irony in his message, do you?
 
2013-06-23 07:28:27 PM  

bwilson27: Astorix:

No need to nuke them, just throw them into Lake Karachi.

Or send them into Chicago, past nightfall, with nothing but the clothes on their piggy backs.


Better yet, send them into the favelas of Rio de Janeiro...at night...with no cops around.
 
2013-06-23 07:30:26 PM  

Jument: At this point why does anyone join the armed forces? The US is not being attacked in a way that directly demands a military response (arguably). PTSD is big news and has been for years. Who wants to play invader in some sandy shiathole thousands of miles away and be subjected to the horrors of war?

If you want to serve your country, I would argue that you should get into politics. But I'm Canadian, so carry on.


The point of any military or police force is to be ready when called upon.  That means constant training and informing the government of it's capabilities.  If no one joins because we're not under attack, when next week/month/year/decade rolls around, we will have no defenses.

There is no one being murdered in my town right this moment, but the police are a necessary force to maintain.  They don't magically appear in numbers and trained enough to do their job.

As for your latter note:
War is a continuation of politics by other means.

As for fighting overseas, there is plenty reason.  Not that all of our excuses are legit(I won't try to defend the government(ie politicians) that is in control, only our military members), it can happen for a genuinely good reason and is even expected of the powerful.  Putting a halt to things like slavery or oppression or outright slaughter of civilian populations.

It is an extension of our society but on a larger scale.  It is the big brother's duty to protect his little brother.
Noble enough in almost all civilizations around the globe.
 
2013-06-23 07:32:24 PM  

Rwa2play: favelas of Rio de Janeiro


Why give them a chance like that? They deserve Chicago and nothing better!
 
2013-06-23 08:12:00 PM  

Kittypie070: Bravo Two: Kittypie070: You. Are. Not. Pointing. A. Way. To. ESCAPE!!

It destroys morale to never hear of a way to ESCAPE!!

Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.

I am REALLY angry.

The way out is really easy. Get enough likeminded individuals, and storm your capitol. If your elected officials won't hear your voices peacibly, then pick up a rifle and some molotov coctails and make them listen.

It's not the elected officials I'm concerned about.

Sorry, incorrect target.

I want their big bucks backers DISPOSED OF and their legal constructs broken into very small pieces.

Permanently.


So, we institute a new form of big game hunting?
 
2013-06-23 09:06:06 PM  

the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way


Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?
 
2013-06-23 09:12:23 PM  

metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?


shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?
 
2013-06-23 10:06:19 PM  

Kittypie070: Tell us a way to get AWAY from this garbage or else STFU.


Yeah?  Well I'm not quite sure when I got elected messiah on a web site mostly populated with people who use it t act like dicks from their mom's dining room, but why don't you point your anger and the people fu*king the dog and not the guy who pointed it out?    :   /
 
2013-06-23 10:17:13 PM  

Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?


You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.
 
2013-06-23 10:24:42 PM  
There has been a lot of journalists covering our mistakes made over there. However the stories are in books like blackwater and big boy rules.Rolling stone has also touched on it. http://www.rollingstone.com/kill-team
 
2013-06-23 10:27:04 PM  

metal_gear: Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?

You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.


Leaking documents is a thing now. Don't you know?
 
2013-06-23 11:00:55 PM  

metal_gear: Giltric: metal_gear: the_rhino: He signed up for it, no sympathy. This isn't Vietnam, he wasn't drafted.

/just getting it out of the way

Did they tell him he'd be doing shiat like that in the fine print or something?

shiat like what? Soldiering?

Or committing "war crimes" that he could have documented and released instead of a suicide note?

You tell me what you think I meant. And let's be serious. Those "documents" would have never seen the light of day.


If it was such a mental and emotional burden, he should have spoke up sooner.
 
2013-06-23 11:40:05 PM  

bwilson27: But they DO have this service for veterans returning home- It's called Re-enlisting! Get with the program!


Uh no.  Reenlisting is a administrative action.  Back stateside, other than the uniform I work in, I might as well be a civilian for what I generally do.  Over in the desert?  That's where the stuff is different.  The idea behind decompression is that you put returning soldiers in a different environment rather than simply releasing them effectively straight from the desert back into civilian society.  24-72 hours of flying/waiting in airports isn't enough.

BarkingUnicorn: IIRC, they're called Wounded Warrior Battalions. They get mixed reviews.


Those are for wounded soldiers.  The idea behind longer decompression is that you have it for ALL soldiers, and even soldiers in "wounded warrior battalions" have easy access to civilian facilities/living.
 
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