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(Gawker)   "I am sorry that it has come to this." One of the 22-a-day's letter   (gawker.com) divider line 389
    More: Sad, Operation Iraqi Freedom, Mosul, Joint Special Operations Command, widows and orphans, international incidents, Dungeons & Dragons deities, sufficient reason  
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24289 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Jun 2013 at 12:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-23 03:35:28 AM  
holdeestrufs:

Half your post I agree with completely, and the other half I couldn't disagree more. But I think you're sincere and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As terrible as I feel for him, you're right that he owes his loved ones better. I've had some people take the short way out in my life... it's as bullshiat as it is tragic.

And as to people that would play that "I had to do things man" b.s. lying through their teeth?... well no matter where we go we find some incredible pieces of shiat.  I can't speak to this kids claims, as you point out he's provided no proof.  But I guess I can't say anything other than; the people I know that claim to have done some terrible things are simply not the quality of person that would do something like that to garner sympathy, respect, whatever.

I'll usually give someone the benefit of the doubt unless someone gives me good reason to believe otherwise. But extraordinary claims do need just as extraordinary proofs. But we can play cliches all day. Where there's smoke there's fire. War's hell. Blah blah blah.

At the end of the day it's the USA. We should be able to GET the facts AND expect better.

My one good friend was one of the first Marines to hit Iraq. Some of the shiat he thinks maybe was necessary, some wasn't. But none of it was the type of thing you took pictures of and sent to a Senator... you say you're usmc, you know how a unit's mentality can be (and for good reason). Everyone thinks if you're in the military and something bad happens all you have to do is "find an adult and tell them" type of shiat. It just doesn't seem to work that way, even if it should.

So the burden of proof thing.... what do you do if there is a concerted effort to keep something secret? I seriously doubt every vet that says they saw terrible shiat that simply shouldn't be done by US troops is a lying basterd. Especially if it's someone I know. So what do they do?  Just shut up and pretend it didn't happen and let the shiat continue?

Oooh, maybe they can 'blow the whistle' and be branded a traitor and thrown in prison?

Yeah, no easy answers at all. I might not agree with you, but I'm a dirty liberal so go figure.  I do think I know where you're coming from.
 
2013-06-23 03:38:07 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: It's only gonna get worse. The species is imploding.


Yeah things were great - no war, no disease, no poverty - when... uh... wait, when were things great?
 
2013-06-23 03:38:45 AM  
War crimes or not, clearly this guy didn't get the support he needed.  Like someone said above, war is pretty much always an atrocity.  Without some more information it's hard to say whether what he went through was more than the usual atrocity, but atrocity is one of those words like pregnant.  Hard to be a little bit pregnant.  Regardless of anything else, he deserved better than he got.  The outcome alone proves that.
 
2013-06-23 03:38:54 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: OgreMagi: There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Nevertheless, we had Saddam well-contained. Potshots at our planes enforcing the no-fly zone were way down. Iraq/Saddam posed no credible threat to the US.

Yes, he was belligerent. Yes, he was probably hiding shiat. But it was small potatoes as he had virtually no capability to deliver.

Who's to say, though? Maybe he could have smuggled a dirty bomb into NYC or DC or London. In the end, though, he seemed more interested in dealing with the French and getting rich off that than being a terrorist.

None of that rises to the level of invasion, and we were wrong to go in. (I think you said as much in an earlier post)


Yes, I did say I was against going into Iraq.  He was an evil bastard who needed killing, but we were busy in Afghanistan at the time and I thought (and was proven right) that it would be a major distraction that was quite unnecessary.  As you mentioned, we basically had him bottled up.  He wasn't going anywhere and we could have dealt with him at some other time.  Like AFTER we finished in Afghanistan.  As far as I'm concerned, we are finished there now and I see no reason to have more of our soldiers die for that shiatty little country.  Let's just leave them to their own misery.  If they get uppity again, drop a missile or two on their parliamentary building while they are in session and call it a day.
 
2013-06-23 03:40:56 AM  
 
2013-06-23 03:41:56 AM  
Begoggle:

Yeah things were great - no war, no disease, no poverty - when... uh... wait, when were things great?

In the 50's, man, that's when everyone was happy!! Then the damn hippies came and made everything gross and dirty.
 
2013-06-23 03:58:34 AM  

OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?
 
2013-06-23 03:59:17 AM  
I watched an interview of one of the last surviving WWI (One) veterans; iirc he was 97. He was asked when was the last time he'd had a nightmare of the war and he responded: 'Last night'.

Even when you don't witness or perform atrocities, there are little things that pick at you - Personal Experience. The woulda-coulda-shouldas... everyone has them. Understatement: the war ones tend to be hard to set aside; doesn't matter what war it is.

The first time I met my wife's father, (I was active duty at the time and got him talking about WWII) he told me about the day they (he was with Patton) liberated one of the concentration camps... (in over 35 years he'd never told his wife or kids).

I had the privilege of meeting and talking with veterans from other countries as well. One of my Russian Instructors was at Stalingrad - a member of the '2% club' (only 2% of Soviet males born that year survived WWII).

They had friends who ate their guns when they came home. There might not have been as high a number of veterans walking around at the time with TBI, but it wouldn't surprise me if it accounted for several of them. But I also know veterans, firemen and policeman who committed suicide after they retired... they didn't know what to do with themselves.

And I think that may be a peek at the increased number of suicides occurring today. While secularization may affect some individuals, and while there may be an efficacious factor decompressing w/ others who have shared similar experiences, I honestly believe the single most contributing factor is: a lack of purpose and self-worth because 'work' today... isn't. Most jobs are not physically demanding. Fifty or more years ago, you humped 16+hrs a day, and hit the rack bone tired; that oblivion one obtains from working hard and feeling you did something of value. Now most people sleepwalk to/at/back from work. My father's and previous generations worked until they dropped.

That kind of life would also mask the numbers who 'accidentally' died - where I was first stationed, a Senior Chief was killed when his car slammed into a tree. His wife came to collect his benefits unaware he'd been force-retired weeks earlier: he'd gotten up every day, put on his uniform and walked out the front door.

/A Vietnam Vet friend back in the 80's looked me in the eye and told me he found himself shaking in the 7-11 trying to convince himself the 'importance' of his snack choice, and realized he hadn't done anything that 'mattered' in months - not counting large consumption of tequila and cigarettes - which was the sole purpose of the job he currently had.
 
2013-06-23 04:06:05 AM  

Cyno01: I know mental health diagnoses werent what they are now (but otoh neither was mental health care...), but how does this compare to soldiers returning from WWII? I know Iraq/Afghanistan deployment has been around 2 million soldiers total, and WWII was closer to 15, was there a comparable rate of suicide among those returning soldiers and its just never ever talked about at all? I know suicide was high among returning Vietnam Vets, but not like today where more soldiers have killed themselves than died in combat. What the hell has changed?


Not being an expert, I'll venture a few guesses:

WWII vets felt that they were fighting for something. Defense of liberty against an enemy that could be objectively classified as evil or defense of a nation against an enemy that attacked first, depending on the part of the globe the vet saw action. That sense of accomplishment and "doing what needed be done" can help to overcome a good deal of psychological trauma. The current crop of vets probably has a much higher percentage wondering what, exactly, their psyche took that beating for.

Another possible explaination is that returning WWII vets had a much higher percentage of their peers who had served and a society that was very aware of the war. Soldiers from the current conflicts come home to a majority of their peers who have no idea what it's like and a society that trumpets "Support The Troops" but only has a dim understanding of what The Troops have gone through and is aware of the conflicts almost as an afterthought.

I've never served in the military, but I've had some...farked up experiences. Nothing near what the guys serving in a combat role have dealt with, but I have some pretty serious scars in my head. I can even trace behavior changes after a couple of particularly notable events. If I didn't have a strong belief that what I do is ultimately worth the occasional mental injury I endure, I think I'd go off the deep end.
 
2013-06-23 04:09:00 AM  

Tired_of_the_BS: I watched an interview of one of the last surviving WWI (One) veterans; iirc he was 97. He was asked when was the last time he'd had a nightmare of the war and he responded: 'Last night'.

Even when you don't witness or perform atrocities, there are little things that pick at you - Personal Experience. The woulda-coulda-shouldas... everyone has them. Understatement: the war ones tend to be hard to set aside; doesn't matter what war it is.

The first time I met my wife's father, (I was active duty at the time and got him talking about WWII) he told me about the day they (he was with Patton) liberated one of the concentration camps... (in over 35 years he'd never told his wife or kids).

I had the privilege of meeting and talking with veterans from other countries as well. One of my Russian Instructors was at Stalingrad - a member of the '2% club' (only 2% of Soviet males born that year survived WWII).

They had friends who ate their guns when they came home. There might not have been as high a number of veterans walking around at the time with TBI, but it wouldn't surprise me if it accounted for several of them. But I also know veterans, firemen and policeman who committed suicide after they retired... they didn't know what to do with themselves.

And I think that may be a peek at the increased number of suicides occurring today. While secularization may affect some individuals, and while there may be an efficacious factor decompressing w/ others who have shared similar experiences, I honestly believe the single most contributing factor is: a lack of purpose and self-worth because 'work' today... isn't. Most jobs are not physically demanding. Fifty or more years ago, you humped 16+hrs a day, and hit the rack bone tired; that oblivion one obtains from working hard and feeling you did something of value. Now most people sleepwalk to/at/back from work. My father's and previous generations worked until they dropped.

That kind of life would also mask the numbers who 'accidentally' died - where I was first stationed, a Senior Chief was killed when his car slammed into a tree. His wife came to collect his benefits unaware he'd been force-retired weeks earlier: he'd gotten up every day, put on his uniform and walked out the front door.

/A Vietnam Vet friend back in the 80's looked me in the eye and told me he found himself shaking in the 7-11 trying to convince himself the 'importance' of his snack choice, and realized he hadn't done anything that 'mattered' in months - not counting large consumption of tequila and cigarettes - which was the sole purpose of the job he currently had.


So what exactly is your point?
 
2013-06-23 04:09:11 AM  

Corn_Fed: WhoopAssWayne: Corn_Fed: You continue to have the sticky blood of 4,000 Americans on your hands.

Obama promised in 2008 to have all combat brigades out of Iraq in 16 months. You and the other liberals need to wash the blood off your own hands before calling out anyone else, especially after electing this fool for a second term.

Go to hell, war supporter.

You filth started the dumbest war in American history, and now you whine because Obama couldn't end it fast enough?


While at the same time accusing him of 'cutting and running' for implementing the troop withdrawal schedule agreed between GWB and the Iraqi government.
 
2013-06-23 04:14:44 AM  
When your job has a good chance of making you kill people, it's best to not be an overly sensitive man. Don't think of your enemies as people who have families, the thoughts will destroy your life!
 
2013-06-23 04:17:26 AM  

GreenSun: When your job has a good chance of making you kill people, it's best to not be an overly sensitive man. Don't think of your enemies as people who have families, the thoughts will destroy your life!


If history has taught us anything is that we have an almost limitless capacity for qualifying, justifying and filtering our bad ideas by ignoring the reality of the results.
 
2013-06-23 04:19:22 AM  
Seriously you partisan hacks are annoying. Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sure the GOP almost make the Democrats look competent by comparison but both parties continue to push the status quo of warrantless wiretapping and blowing up brown people. Not to mention security theater and general incompetent in fixing some of the most important problems in this nation.
 
2013-06-23 04:28:40 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: DURRRRR DERP


Wow, I'm surprised you can type so much with Cheney's d!ck in your mouth. He's not paying you to think, son.

4,000+ American died in Iraq for nothing. That's what happened, and that's what the history books will say. Hell, even Pat Tillman, the bravest and most selfless soldier of my generation, said that Iraq was bullshiat. And that's before we even invaded. I cannot fathom the level of soulless stupidity a person would have to inhabit to continue to defend it now. You probably think they shipped all of their WMD to Syria, and were behind 9/11 too. I've never enjoyed putting a dumb piece of shiat on ignore as much as I'm going to enjoy putting you there. Now get back to work. Slurp slurp slurp...
 
2013-06-23 04:32:09 AM  

Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?

img.fark.net img.fark.net
It is also very true that French and German corporations did have quite healthy profits trading with Iraq via the "Oil for Food Program" allowed by UN sanctions, and as such both host nations did have ulterior motives for opposing the U.S. invasion. The toppling of Hussein and his regime may very well have had great long-term benefits in the region. Seeing that a leader was immune to being ousted could very well have allowed the events of the Arab Spring to have taken place by psychologically empowering the participants. The problem of course is that while a domino effect may have occurred, no solutions to fill the subsequent power vacuums were in place unlike after all most prior wars.  I can only imagine that for a soldier trying to cope with what he or she has seen this only compounds the personal moral issues of simply not being one of the Good Guys since things now seem to be worse. Granted of course since we don't know much about what went on before hand, who knows how much different life really is for many local people.

Even if everything was tidied up tomorrow around the world and we closed every base and brought every soldier home, we would still find someone to go to war with. Most likely we'd probably "declare war" on some sort of petty domestic bullshiat thing and would turn against ourselves.

Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong. Certainly we don't want a chilling-effect to hamper our abilities to defend ourselves, but profiteers should pay the same burdens as soldiers do when it comes to this unnecessary crap of declaring "eminent domain" upon other countries for the sake of corporations.
 
2013-06-23 04:37:29 AM  

Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: OgreMagi: Frederick: STRYPERSWINE: wow that's totally mature. Nobody WANTS war. Well, Saddam did, but I mean none of US does. My point was that Saddam started this and he alone is to blame. And no, he did NOT fully and immediately comply. He stalled for weeks, moving stuff from one site to another. It was a joke.

But don't let that stop you from coloring and name calling,

It was a joke.  The US using political clout in the U.N. to selectively enforce resolutions for the purpose of bullying.  Iraq never attacked the US.  We sure farked them up though.

At the request of an Kuwait, we created a coalition force to force out the Iraqi army which had invaded a neighboring country.  Iraq lost, and part of the cease fire agreement was they had to comply with a list of demands.  The UN, being one of the most useless organizations in the history of mankind, didn't actually wish to enforce the cease fire, and there was substantial evidence that members of the UN were receiving substantial financial gains from Saddam (that's called "bribes" if you are slow).

OgreMagi: Some of the reports from the inspectors made it pretty obvious what was going on. The inspectors are denied entry into a building for several days. The entire time they are trying to get in, trucks are driving in and driving out of said building. Then Saddam says, "oh all right. I'll let you inspect." You'd have to be an idiot to not know that stuff was being moved. What the "stuff" was and where it went remains unknown.

Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?

What is it you ...


When people throw their arms in the air, yell "fark it", and walk away, it isn't because you won the debate.  It's because they've realized that they might as well debate with a brick wall.

Actually, correction.  Arguing with a brick wall would be more productive because it wouldn't go out of its way to act stupid.  You could learn a lot from a brick wall.
 
2013-06-23 04:37:49 AM  

bbfreak: Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq


A hell of a lot more Dems were against the Iraq war than republicans, including the Dem currently sitting in the farking White House, who made it a priority to end the war and finish the job of finding bin Laden instead -- you may have heard of him. I'm farking sick to death of this false moral equivalency. Both sides are opportunistic political bastards, yes, but most of the Dems who supported Iraq did so because the GOP created a climate of rage and fear that made being against Iraq political suicide for most of the people in Congress. Hell, Bush campaigned in 2000 on invading Iraq, and was gearing up to do so before 9/11 even happened. It was always about finishing the job his daddy never finished. And for that we got 4,000 dead Americans with zero WMD program dismantled, our reputation ruined by that embarrassing dog-and-pony show Powell presented to the UN, more al Qaeda in Iraq after we invaded than before, a whole section of Iraq essentially falling into Iranian hands, and a bunch of oil contracts handed over to the Chinese. Bravo. There's a whole new definition of stupidity reserved for people who still defend that war.
 
2013-06-23 04:43:53 AM  

Claude Ballse: Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.


And the day we demand that those who profit from it and their sons pick up a rifle and fight it, it will be neither inevitable nor necessary.
 
2013-06-23 04:53:49 AM  

bunner: Claude Ballse: But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.


Every war is for profit.
 
2013-06-23 04:57:35 AM  

bunner: Claude Ballse: Mankind will always have war. It is inevitable, and in many cases because of many causes, quite necessary. But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.

And the day we demand that those who profit from it and their sons pick up a rifle and fight it, it will be neither inevitable nor necessary.


Heh.  You've identified someone who will get others killed for personal gain, and you want to arm them?
 
2013-06-23 05:03:00 AM  

DVOM: bunner: Claude Ballse: But war for the sheer sake of profit is wrong.

Every war is for profit.


It is the original corporate venture, but that doesn't make it a good one.
 
2013-06-23 05:03:45 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Heh.  You've identified someone who will get others killed for personal gain, and you want to arm them?


They're armed now.  They just subcontract the actual killing.
 
2013-06-23 05:17:29 AM  

shower_in_my_socks: bbfreak: Last I checked the Democrats and Republicans both authorized the war in Afghanistan and Iraq

A hell of a lot more Dems were against the Iraq war than republicans, including the Dem currently sitting in the farking White House, who made it a priority to end the war and finish the job of finding bin Laden instead -- you may have heard of him. I'm farking sick to death of this false moral equivalency. Both sides are opportunistic political bastards, yes, but most of the Dems who supported Iraq did so because the GOP created a climate of rage and fear that made being against Iraq political suicide for most of the people in Congress. Hell, Bush campaigned in 2000 on invading Iraq, and was gearing up to do so before 9/11 even happened. It was always about finishing the job his daddy never finished. And for that we got 4,000 dead Americans with zero WMD program dismantled, our reputation ruined by that embarrassing dog-and-pony show Powell presented to the UN, more al Qaeda in Iraq after we invaded than before, a whole section of Iraq essentially falling into Iranian hands, and a bunch of oil contracts handed over to the Chinese. Bravo. There's a whole new definition of stupidity reserved for people who still defend that war.


Afghanistan is still OK though eh? The four soldiers who died four days ago died for a just cause? Also, true more Republicans than democrats voted for the Iraq war but not in numbers enough to matter. The Senate especially.

My point was that both parties continue the status quo. Sure, Republicans are a lot worse but as a nation we deserve better than what both parties are selling.
 
2013-06-23 05:21:28 AM  
BBFreak: 'So what exactly is your point?'

Lol - I worked so hard trying to keep what I wanted to say from tl;dr that apparently I didn't explain. And to be honest, I don't know if I had 20 pages I could adequately explain.

I'll try again:

War sends people home who are broken, time doesn't necessarily make it better. I've known some who have experienced minor things and couldn't deal with it, and I've met others who experienced such atrocities that I'm amazed they were able to live functioning, productive lives afterwards.

'Modern' life is not Capital 'R' reality enough to provide many individuals with purpose or long term distraction; hence a common practice to use and abuse drugs (both legal and illegal) and alcohol.

Previous generations worked like dogs - much of the work was physically demanding - and that either provided them with fulfillment, they dropped dead before they felt the urge to check out, or they used the harsh work environment to check themselves out in a way that was not blatantly suicide.

The vets Ive known that did the worst... How many Farkers biatch about the pointlessness of news/entertainment? They see their lives as 'this' times eleventy. And while some above state they are betraying their friends and family, that's not how they see it at all... They feel they're better off w/o them. (And the shiatty thing is, tbh, for many it's true). Most people who grow up with an abusive, alcoholic, or mentally unstable parent - their lives start to improve after they're gone. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck, doesn't mean they don't wish their asshat parent/relative was unable to find a way to change. It just is.

When I've met vets that far gone, the ones I've ever seen 'recover' are those that found a way to physically wear themselves out daily and stuck at it long enough that they found purpose doing it. But hey, take it with a grain of salt; not my job. Rate what I know with the 'stayed at a Holiday Inn' experts.
 
2013-06-23 05:27:57 AM  
Nobody comes home from a war.  You might come back, but home isn't there anymore and you're not the person who left it.
 
2013-06-23 05:29:07 AM  
<I>During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of. </I>

Who? Where? When?

You asshole. You could've been a witness. You could've won gotten some justice to compensate for the crimes you saw and committed. But no, you had to take it all to the grave. Good riddance. I'd tell you to go fark yourself, but you already did.
 
2013-06-23 05:48:14 AM  

italie: So I'm torn here. I know it was a bullshait war to begin with. I won't doubt he was "forced" to participate in things that just aren't right. I feel for him, but at the same time I take issue with a tiny detail.

My hang-up is the participation. If he knew what he was doing to be so horrid, wouldn't the best course of action be to take an other than honorable  discharge?


Oh, I doubt if, at the time, it seemed so horrid that he thought he couldn't keep doing it. The human mind is wonderfully adept at justifying what it has to do at the moment it has to be done, even if it's executing little kids with big eyes with the tip of a rusty bayonet. Then the human comes home and has to live with it, and it seems to him that he MUST have hated doing it; because the alternative is to believe that he's a terrible monster. It's having to deal with that cognitive dissonance that kills some of these guys.

As to "just taking the other than honorable," you have no idea how that can screw up your life. In some cases, a dishonorable or other than honorable can destroy a person's future nearly as badly as a felony conviction--or at least seem to, when you're looking at it from the narrow end. And someone like this--tending to depression, suffering a traumatic brain injury--isn't going to think of ways to get around an other than honorable.

And it's likely he didn't have to do anything that was any more awful than any other veteran had to do. We did some pretty bad things in Iraq, but nothing on the same level as, say, the genocide in Bosnia or even any My Lai style mass executions. Which isn't the point at all. He saw and did some things he couldn't mentally cope with, and the mechanisms weren't there to help him deal with it, either in or out of the service. And that is a disgrace to the military and to America and we should all be very very ashamed.
 
2013-06-23 05:52:55 AM  
 

deffuse: So far I can see exactly one cockbag in this thread.


Well, sorry boys and girls, one wasn't enough.
 
2013-06-23 05:53:17 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.


You mean when he attacked the US?  Or our long-time ally Kuwait.
 
2013-06-23 06:00:10 AM  
Didn't we sort of give old Saddam his job?  Funny how we can say who gets to run what country.  No wonder the world thinks we view every place on earth with electricity as a suburb of the US.
 
2013-06-23 06:06:20 AM  
This is definitely an interesting case. Not sure i understand his hatred of the DEA. I figured it meant that he had a run in with the law but he doesn't show up in Arizona court records (at least not on the public record, could have a plea with a drug court to keep it off the public record).

"My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give."

"They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them. "

"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

Am I the only one thinking there might have been a prescription medication dependency issue here? Is his grudge with the DEA due to he isn't able to find a physician to get him the mix he feels like he needs? Opiates, Benzodiazepenes, SSRIs, all medications that dependency can develop. Withdrawal from these medications can be hell. WW2 vets used alcohol and cigarettes and Vietnam veterans tended to use illegal drugs. Is the trend now that our Iraq/Afghan vets abuse prescription medications? I remember reading stories about how soldiers were nervous about them possibly running out of medications while on a deployment during the opening months of the war, and now they are given nearly a 6 month supply and trusted to not take more than the proper dosages.

I have a friend who is going back to Afghanistan in 2 months on Effexor. He also takes Lortab daily for knee injuries and Nuvigil for his "shift work sleep disorder" however it is acceptable per Army policy. Add that to the fairly common use of anabolic steroids in the military (not approved but still common), the "go pills" (amphetamines-distributed) and you are going to have some massive cognitive strain.

Hell, the army is even paying for research into an intranasal injectable antidepressant.

Here's the LA Times article that explained the military's medication use:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/07/nation/la-na-army-medication -2 0120408

Here's a website that has been keeping track of SSRI effects:
http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=soldier

Regardless of the justification of the war, this is still an issue that needs to be addressed and I don't think more pills are the problem. I'd love to see the results of the Buddhist-inspired training that the USMC is trying (fark had a pretty clever headline on it last year)
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130119/news/701199837/
 
2013-06-23 06:16:11 AM  

thehobbes: This is definitely an interesting case. Not sure i understand his hatred of the DEA. I figured it meant that he had a run in with the law but he doesn't show up in Arizona court records (at least not on the public record, could have a plea with a drug court to keep it off the public record).

"My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give."

"They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them. "

"Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. "

Am I the only one thinking there might have been a prescription medication dependency issue here? Is his grudge with the DEA due to he isn't able to find a physician to get him the mix he feels like he needs? Opiates, Benzodiazepenes, SSRIs, all medications that dependency can develop. Withdrawal from these medications can be hell. WW2 vets used alcohol and cigarettes and Vietnam veterans tended to use illegal drugs. Is the trend now that our Iraq/Afghan vets abuse prescription medications? I remember reading stories about how soldiers were nervous about them possibly running out of medications while on a deployment during the opening months of the war, and now they are given nearly a 6 month supply and trusted to not take more than the proper dosages.

I have a friend who is going back to Afghanistan in 2 months on Effexor. He also takes Lortab daily for knee injuries and Nuvigil for his "shift work sleep disorder" however it is acceptable per Army policy. Add that to the fairly common use of anabolic steroids in the military (not approved but still common), the "go pills" (amphetamines-distributed) and you are going to have some massive cognitive strain.

Hel ...


I'm thinking he was on some kind of pain meds (Vicodin? Percocet?) which doctors are notoriously paranoid about prescribing in sufficient amounts because they get watched by the medical board for over prescribing and/or getting their patients addicted. What he describes does sound like someone in the throes of opiate withdrawal. But it also sounds like someone in the depths of a depressive episode who can't find the medication mix that works--and chronic pain can create or feed into chronic depression. Plus, SSRIs and other antidepressants can prevent the use of some painkillers, because they enhance the effects. And he was likely drinking or otherwise self-medicating to dull the pain on his own, I'd bet.

It's also possible he was trying to get medical marijuana, either for the depression or for the brain injury (it's not been okayed for either, although I hear it works well for both), and blamed the DEA in error for his inability to get it even without any actual legal problems. There is nothing like serious depression for making you paranoid and delusional as all git-out, and you'll look for anything to hang your suicide on. So to speak.
 
2013-06-23 06:16:59 AM  

Cid_Highwind: <I>During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of. </I>

Who? Where? When?

You asshole. You could've been a witness. You could've won gotten some justice to compensate for the crimes you saw and committed. But no, you had to take it all to the grave. Good riddance. I'd tell you to go fark yourself, but you already did.


Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.
 
2013-06-23 08:17:02 AM  

bbfreak: Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.


Similarly, he didn't speak for veterans. He congratulated himself for his guilt because that made him better than a sociopath, somehow. Even though in the end, whatever he did to earn that guilt happened whether he felt guilty about it or not, and he never did anything about it. A collection of rationalizations for suicide is just that, nothing more.
 
2013-06-23 08:19:25 AM  
The Iraq Murder Party will continue to deliver its grisly blessings for as long as any of us continue to draw breath
 
2013-06-23 08:25:53 AM  
Gyrfalcon:

And it's likely he didn't have to do anything that was any more awful than any other veteran had to do. We did some pretty bad things in Iraq, but nothing on the same level as, say, the genocide in Bosnia or even any My Lai style mass executions. Which isn't the point at all. He saw and did some things he couldn't mentally cope with, and the mechanisms weren't there to help him deal with it, either in or out of the service. And that is a disgrace to the military and to America and we should all be very very ashamed.

While I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said, I think the biggest disgrace was sending them there in the first place. Failure starts at that point.
 
2013-06-23 08:52:41 AM  
anyone got the letter from a different source or a screencap? i dont want to click on a gawker link.
 
2013-06-23 09:07:07 AM  

Cid_Highwind: bbfreak: Your compassion knows no bounds. This was a man deeply troubled and that long ago declared himself worthless. So that he didn't speak up about the supposed war crimes he committed is not surprising. This letter wasn't to you, it wasn't to the American public. It was to his family.


So in that context it's understandable that he doesn't go into detail. In any case whether you agree or disagree with his actions it shouldn't of ended in suicide. It is a tragedy. Our veterans deserve better.

Similarly, he didn't speak for veterans. He congratulated himself for his guilt because that made him better than a sociopath, somehow. Even though in the end, whatever he did to earn that guilt happened whether he felt guilty about it or not, and he never did anything about it. A collection of rationalizations for suicide is just that, nothing more.


So? This was a man in need of help physically and mentally, who couldn't even see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yet you call him an asshole and admonish him for being unable to do something about his situation when as stated he was unable to see the point of continuing or doing so. He was in no condition mentally to live up to your standards.

I lay blame largely where it belongs, with the VA and all the politicians who sent this man off to war in the first place. Go ahead though, contact his family and tell them what an asshole you think he was though.
 
2013-06-23 09:28:32 AM  
A thread like this is very handy for picking out all the ones who need to go on the ignore list.

A thorough and careful suicide is about as preventable as sunrise, farktards.  And keep in mind, for those who keep farking harping on 'so why didn't he give the details?!?' he may well have, and they may well have been reserved - or this would never, ever get published as far and wide as has already been.

Jesus H. Farking Christ in high heels on a buckboard - the sociopaths are thick.

/yup, I mean that BOTH ways
 
2013-06-23 09:31:06 AM  
Remember that time the UN sent IAEA inspectors to America's nuclear facilities?  No?

And?  I'm trying to work out how that has anything to do with fark all anything.  We did not lose a the war so we did not have to let anyone do anything we did not wish on our soil.  Iraq lost.  There was a cease fire agreement which Saddam did everything in his power to avoid and break.

Iraq lost a war to Kuwait?  When did that happen?

Are you seriously that stupid?


What is it you are trying to say above?  To whom did Iraq lose?

It is annoying that Farkers keep replying in in the form of questions. That goes for rhetorical questions as well (or especially). Just make your point and if it is misunderstood, repeat it more clearly in different words.

/realizes he's setting himself up for the joke of only getting questions as answers
 
2013-06-23 09:38:34 AM  
Let's say you could write IOUs with absolutely nothing behind them.

Let's say that you could, through force, maintain these IOUs as the one and only method of access to ANYthing people need to survive, and thereby use them to leverage actual wealth like precious metals, minerals, arable land, trees, potable water and the means of production.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that you could then have different areas occupying different imaginary boundaries on the planet agree to do the same and control the flow of all wealth and access thereto and then agree to, every so often, send off a few hundred  thousand of the people occupying YOUR imaginary boundaries to go and blow the people occupying the other guy's imaginary boundaries to hell.  Using some of the most amazingly lethal tech on the planet. And thereby maintain the perceived and illusory worth of your IOUs and the necessities of those boundaries.

Is anybody catching on, yet?  None of the collateral damage gets to the people who print the IOUs, distribute them or support the system that forces us to use them.  Why do you suppose that is?  Money really is a lousy god.  Because look at  the ugly things we do to get it, thereby subverting any positive uses it may have.  We have the ability to create things that can serve human beings, and we end up creating things that we eventually need to serve.  User application error. War, and the things that start them, is the most blatant form of it.
 
2013-06-23 10:41:09 AM  

MurphyMurphy: Look this HARD IN THE FARKING FACE. This is what the stars and stripes will be known for by future generations


War and atrocity have always been best friends.

But you're right - we own it because in 2003 we decided to "go ahead and start the war" on a whim. That was the moment we lost whatever moral high ground we once held.
 
2013-06-23 10:50:28 AM  
This is what Statism does.

It doesn't matter which faction nominally controls the State. A few hundred years of experience should make that clear by now.

Do you really think this is the first time the US crime ring has sent Americans abroad to murder foreigners in order to cause "regime change" in a country that posed no threat to America on the basis of evidence that was later revealed to be exaggerated and false? Milosevic ring a bell? General Smedley Butler (2-time Medal of Honor recipient) described the war racket in detail nearly a century ago. Nothing changes.

You party loyalists are the biggest fools in the whole rotten system.
 
2013-06-23 10:56:49 AM  

ladyfortuna: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Why would you ruin such an awesome natural feature of the earth by poisoning it with that?

And I guess the nuke would be bad for it, too.


Yeah, true.  Any canyon/valley in the middle of nowhere should do then.
 
2013-06-23 10:59:49 AM  

STRYPERSWINE: Sucks that Saddam Hussein started a war and then refused to comply with the cease-fire after losing.

Getting this in before people start blaming Bush for Saddam's actions and inactions.


Ah yes, the Sherriff Joe asshat supporter chimes in.

*plonk*
 
2013-06-23 11:02:12 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.


Why not, worked for Switzerland.
 
2013-06-23 11:02:58 AM  

bwilson27: Popcorn Johnny: Rwa2play: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why war hawks need to get sent into the center of the Grand Canyon and a nuclear bomb is detonated right where they're standing.

/Fark...

Yep, the USA should just sit back and let the rest of the world kill each other. After all, 1 American life is more valuable than 1,000 foreigners. You're farking disgusting.

You're right! We need to get in there first and kill those farking foreigners!


I know right.  It's nice for him to comment from his ivory tower.
 
2013-06-23 11:04:18 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: That won't make a Goddamned bit of difference to the chickenhawks and war profiteers.

Cowards like you would sit home hiding in the closet while the rest of the world burned. You disgust me.


This from someone that sits comfortably in his ivory tower.
 
2013-06-23 11:23:09 AM  
A soldier saw bad things, and can't live with it. I'm saddened that he's gone, I'm saddened that he went through it, and I'm happy that he's found peace.

Suicide is neither a sin, nor a bad act. It is the right of every individual who cannot find peace otherwise.

As to the shiat people saw in war...people like to shiat all over the US for supposedly doing bad things, well, I can tell you that the things the enemy did and does are much worse, and worthy of fighting.
 
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