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(PetaPixel)   Amazing cross-section photos of ammunition from WWII   (petapixel.com) divider line 129
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20711 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jun 2013 at 2:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-22 04:09:06 AM
I assume the ones with the wood slugs are training rounds of some kind?
 
2013-06-22 04:11:41 AM

DreamyAltarBoy: Seeing these in cross section kinda makes makes me go: GAH! I can sort of get what a simple "slow" slug can do to a body, but some of these look like they're designed to make burger meat. Does anybody know what's up with that flechette?


it was designed to replace carrier pigeons, but you already knew that.
 
2013-06-22 04:33:50 AM
That flechette ammo, isn't that from the recent experimental Steyr ACR?
 
2013-06-22 04:39:55 AM

HotWingAgenda: amindofiron: HotWingAgenda: amindofiron: There are international treaties (the Hague conventions specifically) that ban the use of expanding/hollow point ammo in warfare and the Geneva convention's ban on weapons that are expressly designed to maim (in this case that thing that looks like a glazer safety round).

She said it was a Swiss WWII bunker. She didn't say the contents of the bunker were all from WWII. Even if she had, would you mind taking a stab at whether the Geneva Convention and all those Hague treaties happened before or after WWII? Go ahead, guess.

Hague conventions where called in 1899 and 1907 respectively and the Geneva conventions where called in 1906, 1929 and 1949 respectively, what's your point? As to your other point, the article's title was "AMMO: Cross Section Photos of Bullets Used During WWII". I suppose you could quibble and claim that some of them where used in the civilian market during the same time but...

My bad. Generally, everyone born after WWII means the most recent (1949) convention when they are talking about "THE Geneva Convention". Sort of like how when someone mentions "THE president" they're not talking about Taft. You must be extremely long lived. As for whether the photographer says they were WWII ammunition, I can't help you. She deliberately says the subjects were photographed inside a WWII bunker, and does not say they are WWII ammunition. What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?


The Fightin' Fifth Aspergers Museum and Photography Unit, SIR!
 
2013-06-22 04:57:07 AM
I believe that the flechette round is a XM 144 Flechette round.

I believe that round that has the darts inside the bullet is a 9mm 'high safety ammo' round, meant to be something like the Glaser safety slug.

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-22 04:59:02 AM

HotWingAgenda: She deliberately says the subjects were photographed inside a WWII bunker, and does not say they are WWII ammunition. What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?


Looking at the site, the photographer is an Austrian expat living in LA. Personally I'm going for English as a second language for $200. Actually the language she's writing in is AGB, or Art Gallery Bullshi'it.
 
2013-06-22 05:00:08 AM
looks like the leading cause of death may have been from silver poisoning.

/vs.
 
2013-06-22 05:00:33 AM

RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.

The Eighth.  Mine too.  Did you get his jacket?

Nah, he came back, and rarely said anything about it. We have a couple of photos of him in uniform, but that's about it. But he kept in touch with his crew, and their captain put together the logs of all their missions and sent everyone copies -- that's pretty interesting reading, especially, IIRC, sightings of the ME-163, and after the war his aircraft traveling through Libya. But that's about all we have.

After the war he wouldn't get into another plane until the 70s when my mom convinced him to fly in a 727 back and forth to Vegas with her.


My grandfather was a B17 pilot, 8th AF 303BG. He also never flew again after the war. The 303rd has a site with mission reports, pictures and other material. I starting reading the reports and then a few books in my mid twenties, changed my perspective when pretty much every member of the crews mentioned were younger than I was.
 
2013-06-22 05:12:00 AM

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Nill: These samples were just stored in a WWII-era bunker, not FROM WW2.
Most are modern designs not even invented at the time. Oldest stuff in that spread are Cold-War era.

Came here to say this.

I'm curious about the pistol rounds with the giant almost cubical powder grains. What pistol uses powder that burns so slowly? Is it meant as a rifle load?


I don't think those are pistol, those look like 40mm grenades. How she got them cut in half without touching off the primers is the question.
 
2013-06-22 05:26:39 AM

vossiewulf: Mock26: I want to know what these are, especially the blue one and the one with the three metal spikes!

"Metal spikes" looks like a flechette round.


There's one further down with a single nail-like projectile. I'd call that one a flechette round.
The one next to it looks especially interesting. Four stacked projectiles.
 
2013-06-22 05:34:27 AM
It's interesting what effect ammo can have. The original cannon for the MKV Panther used a tungsten cored round that was very effective. However, after the tank design was started, the Germans realized they didn't have enough tungsten to manufacture all the rounds they would need. As a result, they substituted a different cannon which used a conventional round. This cannon was larger, so the turret size was increased. The original turret fit between the tracks in the chassis, but the new one was too large, so it had to be placed with some overhang over the tracks, and the hull was modified into a t shaped cross section to accomodate the greater turret diameter. This added a lot of weight to the design. However, the drive train was not upgraded to match on the first models, and many broke down.

 In 1943 no panzer unit equipped with Panther D and early model Panther A tanks were able to sustain an operational readiness rate above 35%. More Panthers were lost to mechanical problems in 1943 than to enemy combat. The transmission system was also poor as 5 percent broke within 100km and almost 90 percent broke down within 1,500km. The final drive on the Panther D was so bad that it could not even turn the tank while backing up. It fuel pumps were also a huge problem, they would often leak and cause massive engine fires. The Panther D and A tanks were so prone to breakdown that they had to transport them by train along with the Tiger I. When some Panther A tanks were first being distributed to the SS-Leibstandarte in Italy, September 1943, they were so poor that every one was rejected for service. In summary, the Panther D was a 45 ton tank running on a chassis built for a 24 ton vehicle with very poor mobility and reliability.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/22672-the-panther-tanks-bad-reliability/

Another interesting story involves ordinance fuses. Krupp, a german company, developed a hand grenade fuse prior to WWI. During the war, Vickers used the design in munitions fo the for the British army which killed many Germans. After the war, Krupp sued Vickers for royalties on the fuses, and Vickers settled the claim in Krupp's favor.

http://greatwar.nl/frames/default-merchants.html

"The Arms of Krupp" makes for an interesting read if you are into this sort of thing

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316529400
 
2013-06-22 06:21:00 AM

NFA: Shame they didn't have info on the make and caliber.


^^^^

A couple of them are really strange and interesting.
 
2013-06-22 06:33:38 AM

basemetal: [cdn.petapixel.com image 620x515]

The one on the left looks like a glaser safety slug.


The one on the left looks like a marriage round, you can tell by the blue ball.
 
2013-06-22 06:41:53 AM

Lt_Ryan: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.

The Eighth.  Mine too.  Did you get his jacket?

Nah, he came back, and rarely said anything about it. We have a couple of photos of him in uniform, but that's about it. But he kept in touch with his crew, and their captain put together the logs of all their missions and sent everyone copies -- that's pretty interesting reading, especially, IIRC, sightings of the ME-163, and after the war his aircraft traveling through Libya. But that's about all we have.

After the war he wouldn't get into another plane until the 70s when my mom convinced him to fly in a 727 back and forth to Vegas with her.

My grandfather was a B17 pilot, 8th AF 303BG. He also never flew again after the war. The 303rd has a site with mission reports, pictures and other material. I starting reading the reports and then a few books in my mid twenties, changed my perspective when pretty much every member of the crews mentioned were younger than I was.


Thank you for what your Grandfather and Father did.

I would say it was one of the most dangerous posts of the war.

Grandfather was 1 Dywizja Pancerna.

Nobody survived without scars, some ran deeper than most.
 
2013-06-22 06:54:34 AM

RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.


My dad was a navigator on Halifax bombers, apparently also known as "20-mm magnets." Like the Lancs, although they were a structurally strong bird, they had damn little armour and zero protection from underneath and only some popgun mg's for protection from the top and rear.
 
2013-06-22 06:56:22 AM

realityVSperception: It's interesting what effect ammo can have. The original cannon for the MKV Panther used a tungsten cored round that was very effective. However, after the tank design was started, the Germans realized they didn't have enough tungsten to manufacture all the rounds they would need. As a result, they substituted a different cannon which used a conventional round. This cannon was larger, so the turret size was increased. The original turret fit between the tracks in the chassis, but the new one was too large, so it had to be placed with some overhang over the tracks, and the hull was modified into a t shaped cross section to accomodate the greater turret diameter. This added a lot of weight to the design. However, the drive train was not upgraded to match on the first models, and many broke down.

 In 1943 no panzer unit equipped with Panther D and early model Panther A tanks were able to sustain an operational readiness rate above 35%. More Panthers were lost to mechanical problems in 1943 than to enemy combat. The transmission system was also poor as 5 percent broke within 100km and almost 90 percent broke down within 1,500km. The final drive on the Panther D was so bad that it could not even turn the tank while backing up. It fuel pumps were also a huge problem, they would often leak and cause massive engine fires. The Panther D and A tanks were so prone to breakdown that they had to transport them by train along with the Tiger I. When some Panther A tanks were first being distributed to the SS-Leibstandarte in Italy, September 1943, they were so poor that every one was rejected for service. In summary, the Panther D was a 45 ton tank running on a chassis built for a 24 ton vehicle with very poor mobility and reliability.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/22672-the-panther-tanks-bad-reliability/

Another interesting story involves ordinance fuses. Krupp, a german company, developed a hand grenade fuse prior to WWI. During the war, Vickers used the design in munitions fo t ...


Tank design throughout WW2 is full of mistakes, cockups and short sightedness. Every tank seemed to be under armed until the end of the war with the M4 being a great example. If the all the M4s that landed on Normandy had the 17pounder then there would be a lot more Americans, Brits and Canuks alive today. The only reason why the Tiger had the 88 was Hitler had his super weapon hardon after hearing about the effect of it in North Africa
 
2013-06-22 07:17:53 AM
HotWingAgenda:  What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?

The Tea Party?
 
2013-06-22 07:23:57 AM

realityVSperception: In 1943 no panzer unit equipped with Panther D and early model Panther A tanks were able to sustain an operational readiness rate above 35%. More Panthers were lost to mechanical problems in 1943 than to enemy combat.


Many things in the German war machine were being made by forced labor and that forced labor often sabotaged things. Get the heat treat wrong on gears, over-tighten or under-tighten bolts, plug up lubrication passageways, things purposefully assembled wrong, and so on.

I remember on one of the shows where they were restoring old military vehicles that the restorer said every German WW2 tank he's examined had signs of sabotage by those who built it.
 
2013-06-22 07:49:44 AM

Norfolking Chance: realityVSperception: It's interesting what effect ammo can have. The original cannon for the MKV Panther used a tungsten cored round that was very effective. However, after the tank design was started, the Germans realized they didn't have enough tungsten to manufacture all the rounds they would need. As a result, they substituted a different cannon which used a conventional round. This cannon was larger, so the turret size was increased. The original turret fit between the tracks in the chassis, but the new one was too large, so it had to be placed with some overhang over the tracks, and the hull was modified into a t shaped cross section to accomodate the greater turret diameter. This added a lot of weight to the design. However, the drive train was not upgraded to match on the first models, and many broke down.

 In 1943 no panzer unit equipped with Panther D and early model Panther A tanks were able to sustain an operational readiness rate above 35%. More Panthers were lost to mechanical problems in 1943 than to enemy combat. The transmission system was also poor as 5 percent broke within 100km and almost 90 percent broke down within 1,500km. The final drive on the Panther D was so bad that it could not even turn the tank while backing up. It fuel pumps were also a huge problem, they would often leak and cause massive engine fires. The Panther D and A tanks were so prone to breakdown that they had to transport them by train along with the Tiger I. When some Panther A tanks were first being distributed to the SS-Leibstandarte in Italy, September 1943, they were so poor that every one was rejected for service. In summary, the Panther D was a 45 ton tank running on a chassis built for a 24 ton vehicle with very poor mobility and reliability.

http://www.ww2f.com/topic/22672-the-panther-tanks-bad-reliability/

Another interesting story involves ordinance fuses. Krupp, a german company, developed a hand grenade fuse prior to WWI. During the war, Vickers used the desi ...


Tank design throughout WW2 is full of mistakes, cockups and short sightedness. Every tank seemed to be under armed until the end of the war with the M4 being a great example. If the all the M4s that landed on Normandy had the 17pounder then there would be a lot more Americans, Brits and Canuks alive today. The only reason why the Tiger had the 88 was Hitler had his super weapon hardon after hearing about the effect of it in North Africa

I agree with your basic point. That said, the M4 Sherman was designed to go against the MKIV, which it was a decent match for though. The thing to remember is the timeframe these were designed, tooled up, and deployed in. Can you imagine going from a blank sheet of paper to production delivery in 18 months or less?  The logistics behind that are astounding. I've wandered the halls of today's pentagon and spent more time than that just trying to get the f*****g phone bills paid. Remember that the Americans committed to a single design, built in volume, and won, while the Germans built a plethora of incrementally upgraded designs and lost. And also one can't just look at tank vs tank, as allied overall strategy was built around air superiority. Allied ground attack planes decimated the panzercorps far more effectively than tank vs tank duels could ever have, while having many abeit inferior tanks available allowed Allied forces to sweep across France in '44. Would you want more 17lber Shermans if it ment fewer P47's? When you look at Allied tank+plane vs German tank+plane strategy, the Allies overall strategy beat the Germans at their own blitzkrieg game.

Also, the tiger has a backstory too. Hitler and Porche were buddies, and Porche was suppose to get the tiger tank contract. Henschel's prototype was just suppose to be a fig leaf to cover the fact that the tiger contract was rigged at the highest level. In fact Porche & co. were so sure they would win, they already had about 200 chasss under construction before the contract was awarded. Low and behold, when the prototypes went head to head, Henschel's design was so much better, even Hitler had to admit they should get the contract. The Porche chassis were converted into assault guns called Elephants, which had (to put it politely) a poor record. If you get the military channel, they run "Tank Overhaul" every now and then, and they cover restoring an Elephant captured in Italy in an episode.
 
2013-06-22 08:21:07 AM

RocketCarHead: vossiewulf: Mock26: I want to know what these are, especially the blue one and the one with the three metal spikes!

"Metal spikes" looks like a flechette round.

There's one further down with a single nail-like projectile. I'd call that one a flechette round.
The one next to it looks especially interesting. Four stacked projectiles.


I thoght so too. I looked around a bit. I think its exactly what it appears to be, three slugs stacked in one casing.

They appear to be called duplex or triplex rounds. Also described as salvo sqeeze bore. Here's a 30-06 version

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=cotm/30-06-SALVO

And here's a 9mm version

http://gigconceptsinc.com/Colt-SSB.html

Here's a thread with some more cutaways

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=274739

And I found this post

It was called "Salvo Squeeze Bore" developed by a former Armalite Engineer named Russell Robinson.

Russell was my mother's neighbor in Tucson until he passed away about 8 years ago.

We talked about it one time, he showed me some of the test guns and several boxes of ammo.

The idea was quite interesting; working on the concept that deformation at the base of a bullet has an effect on the bullet's flight, hence point of impact. By swaging the bullet from .50 cal down to .30 (also from .30 to .223) the bullet base is deformed, by stacking two or three bullets in a cartridge the deformation is going to be different on each bullet causing a dispersion down range increasing hit probability as the bullets hit within a 3" circle.

Realize that a machine gun has a natural dispersion of shots due to the barrel harmonics caused by the previous shot; by adding Salvo Squeeze bore the downrange density is increased dramatically.


http://www.gunforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/4354/

Since the bottom slug isn't cut away, its tough to tell what it is. Maybe a tracer or possiblty an incendiary ment to add insult to injury?

Also, here is more info on .50 rounds with some cutaways and with descriptions

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/50.htm
 
2013-06-22 08:38:27 AM
cdn.petapixel.com

Image on the right was called a "buddy bullet": three rounds in one.  Not very cost-effective.
 
2013-06-22 08:59:46 AM
Can't believe they left out this little gem from WWII:

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-22 09:07:48 AM

Spanky McStupid: [cdn.petapixel.com image 620x489]

Image on the right was called a "buddy bullet": three rounds in one.  Not very cost-effective.


And the one in the middle...is that a NEEDLE in it?  Wierd.
 
2013-06-22 09:17:50 AM

Lt_Ryan: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.

The Eighth.  Mine too.  Did you get his jacket?

Nah, he came back, and rarely said anything about it. We have a couple of photos of him in uniform, but that's about it. But he kept in touch with his crew, and their captain put together the logs of all their missions and sent everyone copies -- that's pretty interesting reading, especially, IIRC, sightings of the ME-163, and after the war his aircraft traveling through Libya. But that's about all we have.

After the war he wouldn't get into another plane until the 70s when my mom convinced him to fly in a 727 back and forth to Vegas with her.

My grandfather was a B17 pilot, 8th AF 303BG. He also never flew again after the war. The 303rd has a site with mission reports, pictures and other material. I starting reading the reports and then a few books in my mid twenties, changed my perspective when pretty much every member of the crews mentioned were younger than I was.


Many years ago, I worked with a guy who flew B17s over Europe (based in Italy IIRC).  He told he was 20 and weighed about 110 pounds (he was under 5 foot 5) and the plane would bounce him silly.  When returning from a mission he was showing off and rather than a long landing approach, he flew near the end of the runway at about a thousand feet of altitude, did a hard left bank and flattened out right before touchdown and landed safely.  Only then did they notice they'd been hit, which damaged the main wing strut.  He said, "I was just a snot-nosed kid".  That's a different kind of flying altogether.
 
2013-06-22 09:18:16 AM

realityVSperception: Also, the tiger has a backstory too. Hitler and Porche were buddies, and Porche was suppose to get the tiger tank contract. Henschel's prototype was just suppose to be a fig leaf to cover the fact that the tiger contract was rigged at the highest level. In fact Porche & co. were so sure they would win, they already had about 200 chasss under construction before the contract was awarded. Low and behold, when the prototypes went head to head, Henschel's design was so much better, even Hitler had to admit they should get the contract. The Porche chassis were converted into assault guns called Elephants, which had (to put it politely) a poor record. If you get the military channel, they run "Tank Overhaul" every now and then, and they cover restoring an Elephant captured in Italy in an episode.


IIRC, didn't the Porsche Tiger prototype catch fire during it's first test run? And it was so under-powered it couldn't climb hills without a running start?

 How does one safely saw a bullet in half?

Very, very carefully...
 
2013-06-22 09:20:29 AM

CliChe Guevara: amindofiron: DreamyAltarBoy: Seeing these in cross section kinda makes makes me go: GAH! I can sort of get what a simple "slow" slug can do to a body, but some of these look like they're designed to make burger meat. Does anybody know what's up with that flechette?

If you mean the needle looking thing with the fins, the only thing I've ever seen that looked like that where armor piercing discarding sabot anti-tank shells. But because there isn't any scale I have no idea how big it is and thus, no actual clue.

If thats the round I am thinking it is, that is actually a standard flechette as used in a beehive round. About 1.5 inches or so long. A single one was used like that to allow for a handgun cartridge to fire a projectile with enough cross-sectional density to penetrate armor. Problem was, that amount of cross-sectional density also meant it kept right on going, delivering little of its energy to the target and causing little tissue damage and no hydrostatic shock.

I remember hearing flechettes were banned because once they were in the body they would easily warp and then ping around the inside basically guaranteed killing the person. Can't remember exact details of it though
 
2013-06-22 09:28:19 AM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Spanky McStupid: [cdn.petapixel.com image 620x489]

Image on the right was called a "buddy bullet": three rounds in one.  Not very cost-effective.

And the one in the middle...is that a NEEDLE in it?  Wierd.



Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot. (APFSDS) It's a modern kinetic kill anti-tank round. The idea is to get maximimum energy into the minimum possible area, so the best possible shape is a long thin dart. Wrap it in a sabot to fit into a much larger gun barrel so you can put more propellant behind it. But you can't spin stabilize a rod like shorter bullets, so you need to stabilize it with fins. The penetrator is something very hard and dense, usually either tungsten carbide or (in the case of the US) depleted uranium.
 
2013-06-22 09:28:19 AM

basemetal: NFA: Shame they didn't have info on the make and caliber.

h2ogate: This would be a lot more interesting if there were explanations of the bullet designs.

Exactly.

This.

God-is-a-Taco: The cross-sections reveal a hidden complexity and beauty of form, which stands in vast contrast to the destructive purpose of the object. It is a representation of the evil and the beautiful, a reflection of the human condition.

Oh for god's sake. You took a picture of bullets. It's not a deep, spiritual journey through the human experience. At least not without a sepia or black and white filter applied.


This is why artists should never talk about their art, ever. STFU and make with the pretty pictures, lady.
 
2013-06-22 09:29:47 AM
Either me or subby fail at reading comprehension -- article says the photos were taken in a WWII bunker, but not that the ammo is from WWII.  That thing that looks like a sabot round for a hand gun has to be modern, doesn't it?
 
2013-06-22 09:29:58 AM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Spanky McStupid: [cdn.petapixel.com image 620x489]

Image on the right was called a "buddy bullet": three rounds in one.  Not very cost-effective.

And the one in the middle...is that a NEEDLE in it?  Wierd.


That's a humanitarian bullet.  It delivers a dose of anesthetic with the bullet.
 
2013-06-22 09:52:04 AM
There is one cut away that appears to be stacked bullets. Looks like the Squeezebore 50 Caliber rounds used in Vietnam Nam.
 
2013-06-22 09:55:07 AM

amindofiron: DreamyAltarBoy: Seeing these in cross section kinda makes makes me go: GAH! I can sort of get what a simple "slow" slug can do to a body, but some of these look like they're designed to make burger meat. Does anybody know what's up with that flechette?

If you mean the needle looking thing with the fins, the only thing I've ever seen that looked like that where armor piercing discarding sabot anti-tank shells. But because there isn't any scale I have no idea how big it is and thus, no actual clue.


There are .50 cal machinegun rounds that are discarding sabot that the USMC (and presumably the rest of the US military) uses.
 
2013-06-22 10:13:37 AM

rkiller1: Many years ago, I worked with a guy who flew B17s over Europe (based in Italy IIRC).  He told he was 20 and weighed about 110 pounds (he was under 5 foot 5) and the plane would bounce him silly.  When returning from a mission he was showing off and rather than a long landing approach, he flew near the end of the runway at about a thousand feet of altitude, did a hard left bank and flattened out right before touchdown and landed safely.  Only then did they notice they'd been hit, which damaged the main wing strut.  He said, "I was just a snot-nosed kid".  That's a different kind of flying altogether.


If anyone is looking for a good book on the 8th, I can highly recommend 'Half a Wing, 3 Engines and a Prayer'. More or less uses the memoirs/interviews with a singe B-17 crew through their tour over Germany, with some segues for the major operations of the war that the specific crew wasn't involved in.

Lots of interesting details in it that I didn't know about the day to day operation of the 8th. For instance a crew would sometimes fly a different ship than their assigned one, if that plane was down for repairs of maintenance. From the documentaries I'd always assumed they would always fly 'their' plane (Memphis Belle, etc.) every mission. I recall the pilot commenting that everyone hated flying the 'spare' plane for their squadron, because it was an 'ancient' B-17D/E(?) that was held together with 'bailing wire and prayer'.

The crews would also be combined/moved around for injuries/sickness of personnel (more obvious).
 
2013-06-22 10:19:42 AM

Glockenspiel Hero: The penetrator is something very hard and dense, usually either tungsten carbide or (in the case of the US) depleted uranium.


DU isn't hard. It is, however, pyrophoric. AFAIK it's used inside, not as the whole penetrator.

Anyways, ever see WWII footage with all the black puffs around airplanes? They used mechanical clocks as timers in the anti-aircraft shells to get them to blow up at the right time. Except that is was the wrong time 99.9% of the time... It took thousands of shells to hit one plane. Then along came this:

img.fark.net

It's an electronic proximity fuze. A battery and a radar that could withstand 100000G acceleration and 20000RPM... with vacuum tubes. Suddenly the shells became terrifying. It was also useful against ground targets, blowing up over your target is much more effective that blowing up at ground level.

This is not "ammo" itself, sure, but it is amazing.
 
2013-06-22 10:35:49 AM
Maybe subby meant the Iraq Wars? Most of that ammo is post-Nam.
 
2013-06-22 10:43:29 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: DU isn't hard. It is, however, pyrophoric. AFAIK it's used inside, not as the whole penetrator.


Adding some extra M to the whole MA=F equation helps too. Used to work with portable radiography equipment shielded by DU...that shiat is very dense...which I why it makes good shielding. It's also an Alpha emitter, which is why it's bad for the troops when fired. (The US is transiting to tungsten perpetrators partly for this reason)
 
2013-06-22 10:46:53 AM

Skunkwolf: Lt_Ryan: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.

The Eighth.  Mine too.  Did you get his jacket?

Nah, he came back, and rarely said anything about it. We have a couple of photos of him in uniform, but that's about it. But he kept in touch with his crew, and their captain put together the logs of all their missions and sent everyone copies -- that's pretty interesting reading, especially, IIRC, sightings of the ME-163, and after the war his aircraft traveling through Libya. But that's about all we have.

After the war he wouldn't get into another plane until the 70s when my mom convinced him to fly in a 727 back and forth to Vegas with her.

My grandfather was a B17 pilot, 8th AF 303BG. He also never flew again after the war. The 303rd has a site with mission reports, pictures and other material. I starting reading the reports and then a few books in my mid twenties, changed my perspective when pretty much every member of the crews mentioned were younger than I was.

Thank you for what your Grandfather and Father did.

I would say it was one of the most dangerous posts of the war.

Grandfather was 1 Dywizja Pancerna.

Nobody survived without scars, some ran deeper than most.


My grandfather was actually at the airbase during the war.  He wasn't a pilot, but he had the morbid job of cleaning out the planes after return trips.  Before his Alzhheimers set in, heard some of those stories and it was gruesome.  I didn't envy anyone involved with that.  But the amazing thing about that generation was they just "did".  My grandfather felt less than his brothers because he didn't see actual combat.  Hell, the horrors he saw were probably worse than some of his brothers saw.  But regardless he woke up everyday and cleaned blood and sometimes worse out of those planes.
 
2013-06-22 10:47:59 AM

special20: HotWingAgenda:  What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?

The Tea Party?


Wow, you are mind-numbingly unfunny.
 
2013-06-22 11:28:49 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: Glockenspiel Hero: The penetrator is something very hard and dense, usually either tungsten carbide or (in the case of the US) depleted uranium.

DU isn't hard. It is, however, pyrophoric. AFAIK it's used inside, not as the whole penetrator.

Brinell hardness of 2400 doesn't count as hard? Iron's around 500, tungsten is about 2600. You won't find many common metals higher up on the list. It's used for four basic reasons
1) It's very dense. 19 g/cc, and you want a lot of mass in a small area
2) It's hard
3) As you note, it's pyrophoric- it throws flaming chips of metal all over the place. Back in Armor school they showed us the interior of a tank where they'd put plywood sillouettes of a crew and then run a DU sabot round through the turret. Pretty spectacular.
4) It's cheap. We've got tons and tons of the stuff since it's a mostly useless byproduct of U235 enrichment.
Since it's basically harmless unless you vaporize it and get it in your lungs (alpha emitter) or eat it (heavy metal poison) it's a good choice. The latest versions of the M1 use it as part of the front glacis armor on tbe turret as well
 
2013-06-22 11:29:47 AM

Flatus: special20: HotWingAgenda:  What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?

The Tea Party?

Wow, you are mind-numbingly unfunny.


funny or not, he is however quite accurate.

/we have a local church here with around 2 million rounds+ stored in the basement and growing. its like a doomsday cult of fox news, bibles, and not very well veiled racism.
 
2013-06-22 11:33:33 AM

RyansPrivates: Skunkwolf: Lt_Ryan: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: RoyBatty: Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.

Hey, mine too. 8th Air Force England.

The Eighth.  Mine too.  Did you get his jacket?

Nah, he came back, and rarely said anything about it. We have a couple of photos of him in uniform, but that's about it. But he kept in touch with his crew, and their captain put together the logs of all their missions and sent everyone copies -- that's pretty interesting reading, especially, IIRC, sightings of the ME-163, and after the war his aircraft traveling through Libya. But that's about all we have.

After the war he wouldn't get into another plane until the 70s when my mom convinced him to fly in a 727 back and forth to Vegas with her.

My grandfather was a B17 pilot, 8th AF 303BG. He also never flew again after the war. The 303rd has a site with mission reports, pictures and other material. I starting reading the reports and then a few books in my mid twenties, changed my perspective when pretty much every member of the crews mentioned were younger than I was.

Thank you for what your Grandfather and Father did.

I would say it was one of the most dangerous posts of the war.

Grandfather was 1 Dywizja Pancerna.

Nobody survived without scars, some ran deeper than most.

My grandfather was actually at the airbase during the war.  He wasn't a pilot, but he had the morbid job of cleaning out the planes after return trips.  Before his Alzhheimers set in, heard some of those stories and it was gruesome.  I didn't envy anyone involved with that.  But the amazing thing about that generation was they just "did".  My grandfather felt less than his brothers because he didn't see actual combat.  Hell, the horrors he saw were probably worse than some of his brothers saw.  But regardless he woke up everyday and cleaned blood and sometimes worse out of those planes.


You hear how bloody places like Iwo Jima and Tarawa were, but overall the 8th air force had more men killed than the marines lost in the entire war. About 20K marines vs 26K 8th airforce personnel.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq56-1.htm

http://www.8af.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4632
 
2013-06-22 11:36:28 AM

Marcus Aurelius: My father was a B-17 navigator out of northern Italy.  I got your cross sections right here.


Funny you should mention that. When I read this in the article...

FTA: ... [a] beauty of form, which stands in vast contrast to the destructive purpose of the object. It is a representation of the evil and the beautiful, a reflection of the human condition.

... the first thing I thought of was this:

img.fark.net

/have an actual B-17 gunsight mounted on the dash of my WWII themed VW van
 
2013-06-22 11:40:30 AM

realityVSperception: You hear how bloody places like Iwo Jima and Tarawa were, but overall the 8th air force had more men killed than the marines lost in the entire war. About 20K marines vs 26K 8th airforce personnel.


I'd rather be shot than fall to death, too.
 
2013-06-22 11:59:58 AM
To answer the question  of how these rounds were sectioned up so prettily, they were cut up as components and then glued together.
 
2013-06-22 12:33:29 PM
Thanks everyone, for all the interesting stories about ammo, tanks, the air force, and fusing.

I often learn tons from FARK threads.
 
2013-06-22 12:51:37 PM

realityVSperception: I agree with your basic point. That said, the M4 Sherman was designed to go against the MKIV, which it was a decent match for though. The thing to remember is the timeframe these were designed, tooled up, and deployed in. Can you imagine going from a blank sheet of paper to production delivery in 18 months or less? The logistics behind that are astounding. I've wandered the halls of today's pentagon and spent more time than that just trying to get the f*****g phone bills paid. Remember that the Americans committed to a single design, built in volume, and won, while the Germans built a plethora of incrementally upgraded designs and lost. And also one can't just look at tank vs tank, as allied overall strategy was built around air superiority. Allied ground attack planes decimated the panzercorps far more effectively than tank vs tank duels could ever have, while having many abeit inferior tanks available allowed Allied forces to sweep across France in '44. Would you want more 17lber Shermans if it ment fewer P47's? When you look at Allied tank+plane vs German tank+plane strategy, the Allies overall strategy beat the Germans at their own blitzkrieg game.

Also, the tiger has a backstory too. Hitler and Porche were buddies, and Porche was suppose to get the tiger tank contract. Henschel's prototype was just suppose to be a fig leaf to cover the fact that the tiger contract was rigged at the highest level. In fact Porche & co. were so sure they would win, they already had about 200 chasss under construction before the contract was awarded. Low and behold, when the prototypes went head to head, Henschel's design was so much better, even Hitler had to admit they should get the contract. The Porche chassis were converted into assault guns called Elephants, which had (to put it politely) a poor record. If you get the military channel, they run "Tank Overhaul" every now and then, and they cover restoring an Elephant captured in Italy in an episode.


While the stock M4 with its 75mm was ok against the III and IV against the Tiger and Panther it was next to usless. The Tiger was just starting to get deployed and a few were in North Africa before the Germans were pushed out. You can even see one of the captured North Africa Tigers in the Bovington Tank Museum. So its not like the Tiger came as a supprise during Normandy.

Keeping the logistics pipeline as simple as possible with simple and rugged tanks (the British army had a hell of a problem in North Africa keeping tanks going, with most of the Matilda 2's and Crusaders being lost to mechanical problems and not enemy fire) was a great idea but the M4's (and Cromwells) should of been up gunned before Normandy because they knew Tigers would be used and the 75mm guns would not be any good. It wouldn't of any real effort to re-tool the American production lines to produce Fireflys.

The Normandy landings needed to be in the summer of '44 and you always fight wars with the equipment you have not what you need but it was not a massive change and it could of made a big differance.

/The Russians also knew the T34 was undergunned
//They just didn't care.
 
2013-06-22 12:52:51 PM
HotWingAgenda: blah blah blah
She deliberately says the subjects were photographed inside a WWII bunker, and does not say they are WWII ammunition. What kind of f*cked up unit would have 900 different types of rounds in one bunker?


Special Needs Forces???

You can always tell by the clean windows.
 
2013-06-22 01:01:43 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: 2) It's hard


Huh, look at that. I always assumed it was more like lead.

Glockenspiel Hero: 4) It's cheap. We've got tons and tons of the stuff since it's a mostly useless byproduct of U235 enrichment.


I heard that too. Not just cheap, free even.
 
2013-06-22 01:16:16 PM

basemetal: [cdn.petapixel.com image 620x515]

The one on the left looks like a glaser safety slug.


The one on the right looks like a .22TCM, a 9mm cartridge necked down to .223.
 
2013-06-22 01:52:05 PM
From the comments:

From left to right, top to bottom on the above page, the cartridges are:

1. "M860" .50BMG tracer (range training cartridge).
2. Unknown dummy,
3. Wood bullet load (hard to tell caliber, these are not to scale),
4. HSA "Cobra" multi-dart 9x19mm AP load (British, and short-lived),
5. Israeli 9x19mm shot load in resin matrix, for riot use, or anti-skyjack use,
6. Unknown ball load, looks like .32acp or .25acp (not in scale),
7. Personal Protection Systems "MSC" Solid brass hollow point in .25acp made by Hi-Vel,
8. "ZM75" 7.62 Czech short-range tracer loaded into .32acp case for use in the RPG-75 launcher,
9. Glaser Safety slug (blue, #12 shot) - probably .38spl,
10. Probably a .224 BOZ, or a .225 JAWS,
11. 4.6x30mm RUAG "DM11",
12. probably an XM216 flechette,
13. Colt .308 project SALVO experimental,
14. probably a .455 Webley ball load,
15. Speer plastic indoor training load - .38 cal.
*** These photos are excellent, but when shown side-by-side are often out of scale relative to the neighboring cartridge. Only a couple of these were around for WWII, but perhaps many of the photos taken but not shown were from that era. The sections were most likely done by Paul Smith or Reinhold Peschke for whomever the Swiss collector is (maybe Reinhold himself) - fantastic sections!
 
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