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(Washington Post)   Now that the deficit is no longer an actual problem over the 10-year budget window, the GOP wants to change the rules and force all legislation to be judged on a 30-year window. Only problem? 30 year budget projections are completely worthless   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 57
    More: Fail, GOP, deficits, Denis McDonough, Republican, legislation  
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891 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Jun 2013 at 12:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-21 10:26:35 AM
It's almost like no one actually cares about the deficit.
 
2013-06-21 10:29:58 AM

DamnYankees: It's almost like no one actually cares about the deficit.


Pshaw! If that was true, the House wouldn't be working with laser like precision on job creation 24/7.
 
2013-06-21 10:30:27 AM
the GOP really hates facts.
 
2013-06-21 10:56:25 AM
Enough of this politics crap on Friday
 
2013-06-21 12:00:14 PM
So they're just like 95% of the elected GOP. No wonder they want them, they have so much in common
 
2013-06-21 12:04:24 PM
30 year budget projections are completely worthless

Even the 10 year projections are pretty worthless.
 
2013-06-21 12:25:01 PM
Piece of shiat conservatives want to change the "rules", such as they are, to keep selling their snake oil and lies? Must be a day
 
2013-06-21 12:27:57 PM
30 year budget projections are completely worthless

...much like GOP legislation
 
2013-06-21 12:29:43 PM
Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?
 
2013-06-21 12:29:51 PM
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
 
2013-06-21 12:32:03 PM
What's the problem? Next year we can make a new 30 year projection.

Surely things a generation from now will be proceeding along the same trends as now, with nothing unexpected popping up.
 
2013-06-21 12:32:13 PM

Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?


The deficit and debt are politically and economically useful. The people who get benefit out of them - ie, the capitalist class - want to keep their economic bludgeon around.
 
2013-06-21 12:35:17 PM

netizencain: Enough of this politics crap on Friday


How dare anyone discuss politics on the politics tab!
 
2013-06-21 12:40:57 PM

BMulligan: netizencain: Enough of this politics crap on Friday

How dare anyone discuss politics on the politics tab!


OOK SAY COULD BE WORSE.
 
2013-06-21 12:41:54 PM
If you tried to plan out a 30 year budget in 1916 you would have been off by a Great Depression and two World Wars.
 
2013-06-21 12:45:56 PM

BMulligan: netizencain: Enough of this politics crap on Friday

How dare anyone discuss politics on the politics tab!


Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
 
2013-06-21 12:46:56 PM

Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?


I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.
 
2013-06-21 12:49:27 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.


But not surprising.
 
2013-06-21 12:49:55 PM

Car_Ramrod: BMulligan: netizencain: Enough of this politics crap on Friday

How dare anyone discuss politics on the politics tab!

Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com


/no reason.....

 
2013-06-21 12:50:14 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

The deficit and debt are politically and economically useful. The people who get benefit out of them - ie, the capitalist class - want to keep their economic bludgeon around.


Wow. I didn't expect the right answer.  I was trying to hook one of the establishment wonks for some amusement.  The Boobieser on this thread is one of my favorite wonks.  The Farker stood me up. Instead, I get Mr. Knows Things about Human Herding.
 
2013-06-21 12:54:54 PM

netizencain: Enough of this politics crap on Friday


It was not by our hands that the politics tab is once again given Republican derp.
 
2013-06-21 12:59:31 PM
Well, you have to take into account that if we are able to temper down the deficit within 10 years it will result in Republicans passing massive tax cuts to avoid the government from making a profit it doesn't deserve, which will increase the deficit and require more serious deficit reduction goals going forward.
 
2013-06-21 01:01:51 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.


Enlighten us with your understanding.  You get extra Dumb-Fark point for using, "It's Complicated."
 
2013-06-21 01:02:02 PM

Summercat: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.

But not surprising.


Of course not.  :)  Nor is his subsequential "but I meant" statement.

Some things never change around here.  I almost miss some of the old shills.
 
2013-06-21 01:09:37 PM

Eapoe6: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.

Enlighten us with your understanding.  You get extra Dumb-Fark point for using, "It's Complicated."


No.  See, there is no "us", there is only you.  And I'm not in charge of your education.  There are many fine internet resources and lo, even college classes that will help you to understand how global economies work and the importance of carrying debt/deficits.

so in short, fark you, go learn for yourself instead of making up shiat and spouting it here.
 
2013-06-21 01:14:48 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Summercat: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.

But not surprising.

Of course not.  :)  Nor is his subsequential "but I meant" statement.

Some things never change around here.  I almost miss some of the old shills.


I can't say the same, mainly because I dind't interact with them. I've lurked but not posted for a while. I mainly came here to troll furry threads; specifically, to troll the people freaking out about furries in furry threads.

I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.
 
2013-06-21 01:17:46 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: Um...if money can be created at will; backed by bonds purchased by the same entity creating the money, how does budgeting matter at all?

Trillions in QE to pretend the banks are solvent and no one just conjures up some numbers to make the deficit go away?

Anyone?  Anyone see this too?

Bueller?  Bueller?

I find your lack of understanding of the deficit and how it's treated sad.

Enlighten us with your understanding.  You get extra Dumb-Fark point for using, "It's Complicated."

No.  See, there is no "us", there is only you.  And I'm not in charge of your education.  There are many fine internet resources and lo, even college classes that will help you to understand how global economies work and the importance of carrying debt/deficits.

so in short, fark you, go learn for yourself instead of making up shiat and spouting it here.


PERFECT!  You can not be more perfect. Just what I was looking for.  Magnifico!
 
2013-06-21 01:20:08 PM
Summercat:

I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Oh dear don't let it do that.  I spat with some of these nerdballs, but I don't take it seriously, nor is do I take what gets greenlighted as my source of 'news'.  Cause yanno, 'Murrican Stinker? WaPo? LOL

Then I leave work, go home, and forget all about them until the next workday when I get bored.
 
2013-06-21 01:21:40 PM

Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.


Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.
 
2013-06-21 01:26:01 PM
Eapoe6: ......


*yawn*
 
2013-06-21 01:27:52 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Summercat:

I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Oh dear don't let it do that.  I spat with some of these nerdballs, but I don't take it seriously, nor is do I take what gets greenlighted as my source of 'news'.  Cause yanno, 'Murrican Stinker? WaPo? LOL

Then I leave work, go home, and forget all about them until the next workday when I get bored.


Oh, it's not the trolls or other types of posters on here. I look forward to a certain threadshiatter's posts actually, but he only threadshiats science threads that touch upon space or 3D Printing.

It's the news articles. And I cry a little inside.

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.


Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?
 
2013-06-21 01:33:37 PM

Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?


One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.
 
2013-06-21 01:50:31 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.


Capitalism is a great tool for building wealth. It in of itself cannot be an endgame, but it is treated like one, meanwhile...

From my FA journal on the topic:

50lb bag of rice is 504 servings - so at 16.99 (which is the sell-to-consumer price at the store, so that includes ALL the overhead from farm to where the consumer purchases it), that's 3.37 cents per serving (Rounding to the nearest hundreth cent)

There are (approximately) 314 million people in the US.

So.

Number of people (314(millions, but taking that out for readability))* Servings per day (3) * Price per serving (0.0337 dollars)...

Which comes out to 31.74 million dollars. But that's per day.

For an entire year, it comes out to 11.587 billion dollars.

...which is 0.772467% of the 2011 Estimate GDP. And 1.5% of what the US spends on the military.

I'm not advocating that everyone eat solely rice. It is entirely possible that other items out there are cheaper and healthier, but A) This is an example of something we should look into, not a policy suggestion, and B) Flour is cheaper than rice grains, but not everyone can be effective at turning flour into edible foodstuffs.
 
2013-06-21 01:53:39 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.


Midget Diarrhea Bazooka. Google it. I wrote it.
 
2013-06-21 01:55:31 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Eapoe6: ......


*yawn*


Oh, I almost forgot you were there.

You may go, now.
 
2013-06-21 01:57:58 PM
30 year budget projections are completely worthless

So is the GOP.  I see the connection now.
 
2013-06-21 02:13:37 PM

Summercat: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Summercat:

I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Oh dear don't let it do that.  I spat with some of these nerdballs, but I don't take it seriously, nor is do I take what gets greenlighted as my source of 'news'.  Cause yanno, 'Murrican Stinker? WaPo? LOL

Then I leave work, go home, and forget all about them until the next workday when I get bored.

Oh, it's not the trolls or other types of posters on here. I look forward to a certain threadshiatter's posts actually, but he only threadshiats science threads that touch upon space or 3D Printing.

It's the news articles. And I cry a little inside.

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?


Well, that depends on whether or not they have boot straps, now doesn't it?

/amidoinitrite?
 
2013-06-21 02:24:58 PM

geek_mars: Summercat: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Summercat:

I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Oh dear don't let it do that.  I spat with some of these nerdballs, but I don't take it seriously, nor is do I take what gets greenlighted as my source of 'news'.  Cause yanno, 'Murrican Stinker? WaPo? LOL

Then I leave work, go home, and forget all about them until the next workday when I get bored.

Oh, it's not the trolls or other types of posters on here. I look forward to a certain threadshiatter's posts actually, but he only threadshiats science threads that touch upon space or 3D Printing.

It's the news articles. And I cry a little inside.

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

Well, that depends on whether or not they have boot straps, now doesn't it?

/amidoinitrite?


Yes, you are. Sadly. :(
 
2013-06-21 03:49:08 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.


You are as healthy as you are, as free as you are, as comfortable as you are, and are able to spend as much time as you do dreaming about alternative economic structures thanks to capitalism.

Without capitalism you'd be chiseling your posts on a rock and then throwing that rock at a squirrel or something to try and get dinner.
 
2013-06-21 04:02:16 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.

You are as healthy as you are, as free as you are, as comfortable as you are, and are able to spend as much time as you do dreaming about alternative economic structures thanks to capitalism.

Without capitalism you'd be chiseling your posts on a rock and then throwing that rock at a squirrel or something to try and get dinner.


So the world before the 1600s were nothing but subsitience barbarians. Got it.
 
2013-06-21 04:07:42 PM

Summercat: I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?


I think that's essentially true. If society produces a surplus of goods, who gets to wallow in them? That's really the problem capitalism solves. But our ethics derive from a subsistence economy, not an economy that produces a surplus. We've only produced surpluses for a few hundred years, after all, and it's fine to sneer at people who are lazy, when you being lazy means society as a whole will go hungry. It's fine to say, "If you won't work, it's you who won't eat. Not me." That's where our work ethic comes from.
Now we're in this situation where we produce a surplus of goods, and no one need go hungry, and the only real question is, "Who gets the formica countertops, and who gets the marble countertops?"  And people battling over who gets what countertop, those guys look over at the unemployed guy and apply this ancient ethic and say, "Well, how about we both get marble countertops, and that lazy guy goes hungry?"
Capitalism requires an economy that produces a surplus. If we're going to claim there is a moral value to it, we need to have ethics that are rooted in an economy that produces a surplus.
 
2013-06-21 04:20:49 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.


I'm starting to see some mainstream economists pick up on this, like Krugman. The term of art is apparently "capital-biased technological change" - putting together models where the return to capital is roughly infinite and the return to labor is roughly zero, as would be true in a world of ubiquitous robot labor.

The solutions aren't too difficult philosophically - if material goods and labor are both non-scarce, pick your "post-scarcity economy" model and run with it. If material goods are still scarce but labor is not, engage in redistribution that would make Karl Marx blush.

Philosophically easy. Politically... eh, we're probably screwed.
 
2013-06-21 04:33:28 PM

Summercat: Debeo Summa Credo: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.

You are as healthy as you are, as free as you are, as comfortable as you are, and are able to spend as much time as you do dreaming about alternative economic structures thanks to capitalism.

Without capitalism you'd be chiseling your posts on a rock and then throwing that rock at a squirrel or something to try and get dinner.

So the world before the 1600s were nothing but subsitience barbarians. Got it.


Capitalism existed well before the 1600s.
 
2013-06-21 04:52:00 PM
Yeah, but 10 year budget projections, now those mean something!!!
 
2013-06-21 05:03:43 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Summercat: Debeo Summa Credo: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: A Dark Evil Omen: Summercat: I do think that reading the Fark politics tab is a major cause of my depression these days, but that could also be 'reality'.

Funny, I come here for entertainment. If you think this is depressing, try being engaged in radical politics to any extent.

Speaking as someone who spends his time studying pretty much everything in history - not the battles and the who fought who, but also the religion and culture of the time, how their economies worked, the level of technology, and how it all weaved together into the grand tapestry we call history...

I'm farkin' worried about the 'Punish the Poor' Prosperity Gospel heresy in the US, combined with the super focus on people 'earning their keep' in a society and setting where machines are taking over the jobs and helping one person do the work of ten... without increasing demand, and getting the 9 other guys fired.

I'm not a luddite, I don't want to smash the machines, but we've got to take this into account. If there's 10 jobs but 100 people, are the 90 other people deadbeats for not having a job?

One of the many reasons that capitalism fails, really. Any system that encourages both, a) Obviating human labor, and b) Requiring people TO labor (and to labor more and more for less and less recompense) is not only unsustainable but is built on perverse incentives and is fundamentally self-contradicting.

And this is why I and many others work on developing alternative economic and social structures.

You are as healthy as you are, as free as you are, as comfortable as you are, and are able to spend as much time as you do dreaming about alternative economic structures thanks to capitalism.

Without capitalism you'd be chiseling your posts on a rock and then throwing that rock at a squirrel or something to try and get dinner.

So the world before the 1600s were nothing but subsitience barbarians. Got it.

Capitalism existed well before the ...


The terms of today's capitalism is a relatively modern invention based upon the industrial age, the origins of which are in the 1600s.

Prior this, you have items and incidents that could be considered capitalism (The various Italian Merchant Republics such as Pisa, Genoa, or Venice come to mind, but were more Mercantilistic than Capitalistic), but nothing similar to industrial capitalism that started to emerge in the 1600s, and take off in the late 1700s.
 
2013-06-21 05:09:30 PM
The political party that finds a socioeconomic construct that encompasses the demographic requirements of the post industrial age will be the ones to flourish.

Will it happen in the next 10 years? Doubtful.

Will it happen in the next 30 years? Possible but not probable.

But putting a lock on the socioeconomic constraints of the next 30 years would be detrimental to any future progress, maybe even catastrophic!
 
2013-06-21 05:10:05 PM

Summercat: So the world before the 1600s were nothing but subsitience barbarians.


Yes, basically.
 
2013-06-21 05:43:44 PM

DamnYankees: Summercat: So the world before the 1600s were nothing but subsitience barbarians.

Yes, basically.


Human civilization lifted itself from subsistience barbarism by 6000BC in multiple places.
 
2013-06-21 05:45:37 PM

Summercat: Human civilization lifted itself from subsistience barbarism by 6000BC in multiple places.


Not for most people. Just for a tiny amount. And even then, the life of a king was pretty shiatty compared to the average person's life today.
 
2013-06-21 06:46:10 PM

DamnYankees: Summercat: Human civilization lifted itself from subsistience barbarism by 6000BC in multiple places.

Not for most people. Just for a tiny amount. And even then, the life of a king was pretty shiatty compared to the average person's life today.


If we're going by the lowest part of society, then we're not much better than them now.
 
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