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(GamesRadar)   Is committing in-game genocide really necessary to tell a good story?   (gamesradar.com ) divider line
    More: Cool, BioShock Infinite, tomb raider, Red Dead Redemption, action game, JRPG  
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5279 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Jun 2013 at 10:15 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-21 10:18:39 AM  
yes you whiner, it is.
peww , peww!!
 
2013-06-21 10:21:06 AM  
Sorry, Henry Gilbert, your opinion comes about 10 years too late.
 
2013-06-21 10:21:48 AM  
Games are not stories, stupid. Even Mario's a murder simulator.
 
2013-06-21 10:22:31 AM  

moothemagiccow: Games are not stories, stupid. Even Mario's a murder simulator.


Is Pac Man?
 
2013-06-21 10:24:59 AM  

airsupport: Sorry, Henry Gilbert, your opinion comes about 10 years too late.


Try 20....

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-21 10:25:44 AM  
I would think that part of the problem is how games are manufactured now.

In times of yore, (when folk wore onions in their belts) a company looking to make a game came up with a premise, then built the game engine, then fleshed out the game.

Today, the game engine is either built or bought, and re-used for multiple games. So the premise of games now have to fit the game engine they built or bought. Since most engines on the market are geared for shooters, there is a tremendous number of shooters.

If they wanted a change, a company will need to start building new game engines to get rid of the glut of shooters that pervade gaming today.

/Just my $.02
 
2013-06-21 10:25:52 AM  
Yes.

Now go be a whiny coont somewhere without an internet connection.
 
2013-06-21 10:26:36 AM  
Over 700 people had died at my hands.

You must get up very early in the morning! I can't even get down the gym. Your diary must look odd: 'Get up in the morning, death, death, death, death, death, death, death - lunch - death, death, death - afternoon tea - death, death, death - quick shower ...
 
2013-06-21 10:26:42 AM  

Burr: airsupport: Sorry, Henry Gilbert, your opinion comes about 10 years too late.

Try 20....

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x333]


I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going...
 
2013-06-21 10:27:05 AM  
I played CIV for a long time. Civ I Civ II Civ III.  I didn't even know there were alternative ways to win the game other than just steamrolling everyone until I played III.

MOO II, who wants to win by being VOTED into office? Screw that.  Kill everyone or finish off the Anterrans.  (sp probably).
Although the game would have been WAY better if it turned out the Anterrans had a whole galaxy they settled and you had to foot-hold your way into their galaxy through wormholes then fight through the new one.
 
2013-06-21 10:30:07 AM  

SharkaPult: I played CIV for a long time. Civ I Civ II Civ III.  I didn't even know there were alternative ways to win the game other than just steamrolling everyone until I played III.

MOO II, who wants to win by being VOTED into office? Screw that.  Kill everyone or finish off the Anterrans.  (sp probably).
Although the game would have been WAY better if it turned out the Anterrans had a whole galaxy they settled and you had to foot-hold your way into their galaxy through wormholes then fight through the new one.


In Alpha Centauri you had a economic victory.  You could corner the global energy market if you had more money (amount based off some formula, maybe had 75% of the words energy).
 
2013-06-21 10:30:15 AM  
Apparently, you've never met the Silicoids, in Master of Orion 2.

Everything is fine, but if you run into the Silicoids, you seriously can't stop until every last one of them is dead, in order to finish *your* story.
 
2013-06-21 10:30:16 AM  
I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.
 
2013-06-21 10:31:52 AM  
Also there's killing a lot of people and then there is actual scary genocide, like the war atrocities I commit in total war or that option in mass effect
 
2013-06-21 10:31:59 AM  
The Last of Us is probably about the most visually violent game I've ever played. It really earns it's M rating.
 
2013-06-21 10:32:21 AM  

Burr: moothemagiccow: Games are not stories, stupid. Even Mario's a murder simulator.

Is Pac Man?


The ghosts are already dead
 
2013-06-21 10:32:42 AM  

SharkaPult: I played CIV for a long time. Civ I Civ II Civ III.  I didn't even know there were alternative ways to win the game other than just steamrolling everyone until I played III.

MOO II, who wants to win by being VOTED into office? Screw that.  Kill everyone or finish off the Anterrans.  (sp probably).
Although the game would have been WAY better if it turned out the Anterrans had a whole galaxy they settled and you had to foot-hold your way into their galaxy through wormholes then fight through the new one.


Don't know about you, but by the time I got to the Anterrans, I was wielding death stars with multiple stellar converters.  An island hopping campaign wouldn't take long.

On the other hand, sometimes drawn-out devastation is fun.
 
2013-06-21 10:36:01 AM  

SharkaPult: I played CIV for a long time. Civ I Civ II Civ III.  I didn't even know there were alternative ways to win the game other than just steamrolling everyone until I played III.

MOO II, who wants to win by being VOTED into office? Screw that.  Kill everyone or finish off the Anterrans.  (sp probably).
Although the game would have been WAY better if it turned out the Anterrans had a whole galaxy they settled and you had to foot-hold your way into their galaxy through wormholes then fight through the new one.


Being a purist (MOO1 purist) I always turn off the Antarens. No Antarens, huge galaxy, and hard as ever living fark.

Oh, and I usually snag the Psilons as my picture race, so the computer doesn't put them in the game, because, heheh...I'm sorry, but Creative is cheap as hell. Any custom race I build with that trait wins, almost no matter what I do, so I keep that unbalanced shiat out of the game.

I have yet to see anyone who has the chops to remake the game, or one-up it, and believe me, I've spent a lot of time looking. Everyone says "Galactic Civilizations X" or "Distant Words" or "Sins of a Solar Empire", even though GalCiv looks terrible, Distant Worlds is shoddily put together, and Sins is a totally different kind of game (even thought it's beautiful, and well-designed).

I gave Star Ruler an honest shot, but at the end of the day, it just can't stack up.
 
2013-06-21 10:37:20 AM  

thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.


Non-lethal options were available in the original Deus Ex:

img.fark.net

All of them are Unconscious.
 
2013-06-21 10:38:01 AM  

thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.


Dues Ex:  Punch Punch Revolution
 
2013-06-21 10:38:24 AM  

thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.


Am I wrong that you have to kill the bosses in the newest Deus Ex? I was making my way through just knocking people out or tranquilizing them, but you can't do that to dude with machine-gun hands... which is where I'm now stuck since I don't have shiat for weapons. I know I can go back and find some (rocket launcher somewhere I believe)... but I got caught up in some other games and haven't felt like going back.
 
2013-06-21 10:38:34 AM  
I am replaying the Mass Effect series and just last night got to the point where I wiped out the Quarian race, so I'm really getting a kick.

/Lots of genocide in that game, really.
 
2013-06-21 10:38:39 AM  
To bad he didn't play Spec Ops: The Line
 
2013-06-21 10:38:43 AM  
I didn't even finish the new Tombraider because of this.  Somehow the game goes from crashing on a remote island that has seemingly a few dozen soldiers, to killing thousands of them poring out of every nook and cranny.

How many shipwrecks with middle age soldiers could possibly have crashed on that island?!
 
2013-06-21 10:38:49 AM  
The writer is whiny.  Yes it is necessary.  I will wipe out everything living thing in a game if that is the objective or I just feel like it.  I remember in rise of nations using nuclear weapons against Indians(native Americans) just because I had them.  If committing mass murder of fictional people is wrong then I don't want to be right.
 
2013-06-21 10:39:12 AM  
Can you imagine anything set in the post-apocalypse that didn't involve violence?  You know, the world is irradiated and resources are scarce, but the few survivors hold hands and sing kumbaya all day.  They still dress like Mad Max villains, but they use what little water they have left to irrigate fields of beautiful flowers.
 
2013-06-21 10:39:26 AM  
This guy definitely shouldn't play galactic civilization. where the body count at the end of a Medium sized galaxy is in the hundreds of billions.
 
2013-06-21 10:44:50 AM  
I occasionally wonder what it would look like if every video game character I've ever killed showed up in one spot. From Sonic robots, to Command & Conquer armies, to Borg (playing STO right now). And not even thinking about abstract cases, like nuking a city in Civ and dropping its population a few million.


I'd probably be slightly outnumbered.
 
2013-06-21 10:44:51 AM  

OrionXVI: I would think that part of the problem is how games are manufactured now.

In times of yore, (when folk wore onions in their belts) a company looking to make a game came up with a premise, then built the game engine, then fleshed out the game.

Today, the game engine is either built or bought, and re-used for multiple games. So the premise of games now have to fit the game engine they built or bought. Since most engines on the market are geared for shooters, there is a tremendous number of shooters.

If they wanted a change, a company will need to start building new game engines to get rid of the glut of shooters that pervade gaming today.

/Just my $.02


Engine selection doesn't really effect the game design like that.  For example, Unreal 3 was used to power FPS games, fighting games, RPGS, and tower defense, amongst other games.

Frostbite powers battlefield, bu also can be used for mirrors edge, dragon age, etc.

Building your own from scratch adds thousands of man hours and millions to the cost fo the game.  Buying a prebuilt one saves you a ton.  That's why western devs were able to get up and running this gen far faster then eastern ones, who typically do one off or new engines for each series.

On the subject of the article?  Yeah, we need to rethink how we use killing enemies in a game.  Tomb Raider was a great example of a game that really could have used a pure no kill option.  Uncharted, likewise.
 
2013-06-21 10:47:53 AM  
So the guy had a great time slaughtering videogame baddies by the thousands, but now that he is getting older and have less time to play games he thinks the fun needs to be ramped back for the younger generation.

The mindset that operates this way never ceases to amaze me.
 
2013-06-21 10:47:56 AM  

Dimensio: thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.

Non-lethal options were available in the original Deus Ex:

[img.fark.net image 425x318]

All of them are Unconscious.


I did a full non lethal run of all the MGS series. Only using my dart gun to knock everyone out. Even the bosses got dart gunned.
 
2013-06-21 10:50:03 AM  
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-21 10:50:18 AM  

Antimatter: OrionXVI: I would think that part of the problem is how games are manufactured now.

In times of yore, (when folk wore onions in their belts) a company looking to make a game came up with a premise, then built the game engine, then fleshed out the game.

Today, the game engine is either built or bought, and re-used for multiple games. So the premise of games now have to fit the game engine they built or bought. Since most engines on the market are geared for shooters, there is a tremendous number of shooters.

If they wanted a change, a company will need to start building new game engines to get rid of the glut of shooters that pervade gaming today.

/Just my $.02

Engine selection doesn't really effect the game design like that.  For example, Unreal 3 was used to power FPS games, fighting games, RPGS, and tower defense, amongst other games.

Frostbite powers battlefield, bu also can be used for mirrors edge, dragon age, etc.

Building your own from scratch adds thousands of man hours and millions to the cost fo the game.  Buying a prebuilt one saves you a ton.  That's why western devs were able to get up and running this gen far faster then eastern ones, who typically do one off or new engines for each series.

On the subject of the article?  Yeah, we need to rethink how we use killing enemies in a game.  Tomb Raider was a great example of a game that really could have used a pure no kill option.  Uncharted, likewise.


You could not have a pure no-kill in the new Tomb Raider. I think you needed at least 1 kill which was the opening self defense kill to help shape Lora and drive her character.
 
2013-06-21 10:51:58 AM  

Dimensio: thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.

Non-lethal options were available in the original Deus Ex:

[img.fark.net image 425x318]

All of them are Unconscious.

I personally won't kill anybody in Deus Ex until I start hitting the MJ12 soldiers. I was thrilled to find out there was an achievement in Human Revolution for killing no one, since most games don't give you that option to begin with.
 
2013-06-21 10:52:02 AM  
They are fking games, get ove r it
 
2013-06-21 10:53:06 AM  

Dimensio: thecpt: I didn't kill anyone during mirrors edge or shadow of the colossus (omg that was so long ago). I wish there were more pacifistic war games, or games where you can chose that option such as the newest deus ex.

Non-lethal options were available in the original Deus Ex:

[img.fark.net image 425x318]

All of them are Unconscious.


You could play Deus Ex 2 and win without killing a single person, in which case the only death was a scripted one during the intro sequence. You could also, if you so desired, kill every single person in the game that wasn't in a "safe zone" - including a school full of children. It was an interesting game - though universal ammo and inventory stacking sucked.
 
2013-06-21 10:54:24 AM  
I would like to envoke a lot of Stand Your Ground instances and "It's coming right for us" situtaions at my trial....

But, you can blame me for nuking Megaton....they had it coming!

/has actually never nuked Megaton in all my playthroughs, even when I played "morally questionable" characters.
 
2013-06-21 10:57:20 AM  
Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2 are great examples of how games SHOULD be, but instead they are all incredibly linear. I could more or less not care about the story line. Give me an environment and let my actions shape my path. You should be able to be REALLY REALLY BAD or not kill a soul. Games aren't made like they used to be. I still remember on my Apple II handicapping children in Ultima. That was legit.
 
2013-06-21 10:58:41 AM  

Comsamvimes: I personally won't kill anybody in Deus Ex until I start hitting the MJ12 soldiers.


In Dues Ex you come across the parents of an MJ12 trooper in a cafe in Paris and the mother begs you not to kill him....

You monster
 
2013-06-21 10:59:06 AM  
No but it makes it a lot easier keep people playing your game.  I can completely understand the point being made here but you need to be realistic.  Every art form has limits and video games are no different. Your game needs to be fun or else nobody is going to care about the story.
 
2013-06-21 11:00:45 AM  

OrionXVI: a company will need to start building new game engines to get rid of the glut of shooters that pervade gaming today.


This is basically not correct. Full featured game engines are certainly not specifically built for shooters. Shooters are just easy (somewhat lazy) because everyone knows what the deal is.

Game engines are not something that you just plug models into and blamo you have a shooter game. That's not how it works. They are there to simplify and make more efficient rendering, node management, collision, sound, AI, physics, asset management and input. Each one of those is just a tool you can build whatever you want with.

That being said, there are some very specific "game builder" engines out there. Outside of rapid prototyping and shiatty flash games, I cant think of any reason anyone would want to use them.

/independent game developer (night job)
 
2013-06-21 11:02:11 AM  

miscreant: Am I wrong that you have to kill the bosses in the newest Deus Ex?


You do. The first boss is cheap, but you don't have to go back and get weapons- the room is littered with explosive barrels. You can throw them at him and he'll shoot them and blow himself up. Every other boss, the room is well packed with lethal weapons. The boss fights suck and completely break the game. The rest of the game makes up for it, though.

Antimatter: Engine selection doesn't really effect the game design like that.  For example, Unreal 3 was used to power FPS games, fighting games, RPGS, and tower defense, amongst other games.


This. Engines just provide a framework for handling things that have nothing to do with the game itself- 3D rendering, managing models and other assets, handling collisions and physics. These are things valuable to any kind of game.

The real reason why video games are about violent conflict: violent conflict is easy to understand and has clear win/lose conditions. It's  simple. It's simple to design. It's simple to program for. It's simple for players to understand. Even the most story-driven games still are about winning and losing, and you can't "win" a conversation, which makes it much harder to build a game around. Things like Phoenix Wright games solve this by giving each conversation a clear goal.
 
2013-06-21 11:02:24 AM  
"Minion, what have you DONE?! These were human beings with lives and families and-- I'm totally kidding, SCREW those guys!"

And in relation to Borderlands 2:

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-21 11:02:52 AM  

the money is in the banana stand: Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2 are great examples of how games SHOULD be, but instead they are all incredibly linear. I could more or less not care about the story line. Give me an environment and let my actions shape my path. You should be able to be REALLY REALLY BAD or not kill a soul. Games aren't made like they used to be. I still remember on my Apple II handicapping children in Ultima. That was legit.


That's just your opinion. I was enjoying the hell out of the linear storyline and 'arena style' combat of The Last of Us up until my PS3 shiat the bed.  Linear is not automatically bad and non-linear is not automatically good.
 
2013-06-21 11:03:01 AM  

Perlin Noise: OrionXVI: a company will need to start building new game engines to get rid of the glut of shooters that pervade gaming today.

This is basically not correct. Full featured game engines are certainly not specifically built for shooters. Shooters are just easy (somewhat lazy) because everyone knows what the deal is.

Game engines are not something that you just plug models into and blamo you have a shooter game. That's not how it works. They are there to simplify and make more efficient rendering, node management, collision, sound, AI, physics, asset management and input. Each one of those is just a tool you can build whatever you want with.

That being said, there are some very specific "game builder" engines out there. Outside of rapid prototyping and shiatty flash games, I cant think of any reason anyone would want to use them.

/independent game developer (night job)


Really?  Got any work out there?  I always love a good indie game.
 
2013-06-21 11:05:18 AM  
Wait wait wait wait, you can snap necks in Bioshock Infinite?

This guy is playing the wrong kinds of games. I you want to vidya and NOT kill people, you need to stay away from the Bioshocks and the Calls of Dooties and stick with the Katamari series or Barbie's Horse Adventures.
 
2013-06-21 11:05:35 AM  
This is actually something that affects my game-purchasing decisions.  I have a lot of games from the cartridge era since most of those games were about running along a track and jumping on monsters.  But once we got into the disk era and the 3D graphics improved, there were a lot more games that featured attempts at realistic violence.  I play games as an escape from reality, so I prefer them to bear little resemblance to the reality I see in the news.  I want to impress a celestial king by rolling up crap into a ball.  I want to be a dog who defeat demons by painting pictures in the sky.  I want to escape a laboratory run by a snarky robot by popping holes in the wall.  I don't, however, find any appeal in trying to recreate the horrors I see on the news every day in accurate detail.

/I have the same issue with copious amounts of relationship drama in entertainment.  It's maddening enough to go through in real life, so why the hell would I want to be beaten over the head with it in movies and TV, too?
 
2013-06-21 11:06:20 AM  
Okay.

So I'm playing Tomb Raider right now and that's the one thing that irks me about this game: the high body count.

Lara takes her first life at about the 1 hour mark, nearly vomits from the emotional impact of it, and then instantly becomes an elite killer who kills hundreds of guys.  And all I can think of is that it's totally unnecessary.

The core game play of a game like Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider is NOT the combat.  While I agree you need combat to break up the gameplay, it should compliment the flow of the game.  With both of the aforementioned games, there are some really great combat sequences where you're faced with incredible odds and it takes more than just "kill everyone" to progress.  These are important moments for both the story and gameplay.  But you can see where developers get lazy when it becomes a case of "you haven't killed anyone in a while so here's a giant wave of random enemies."

I think a game like TR could have gotten away with having to kill a few dozen baddies instead of a few hundred of them.  Stealth knockouts would have been better than stealth kills. Sneaking around guys by using the environment would have been better than putting an arrow in a half-dozen guys heads.  A baddie has got you pinned down with an auto-gun?  By all means chuck a grenade at him.

Not having to kill a brazilion people doesn't make for a worse game.  Think about how many people (bosses not included) you actually kill in a game like Metal Gear Solid.  Not many, because it makes sense in that environment that you only need to kill the guys that you HAVE to kill; not KILL EVERYONE!

And I'll concede that in certain games (Halo, Call of Duty), it should be about killing every MFer that pops on screen because that's the core of the game.  But when you're going for something different and combat is not the core, it should be saved for "special moments" where the killing actually progresses the story forward.
 
2013-06-21 11:07:11 AM  
img.fark.net

img.fark.net

Do not have to kill many. Usually just the bosses and even then. You only really kill 1 and that is the final boss. Then again, you can kill everyone you want as well.
 
2013-06-21 11:07:42 AM  
I think the only difference is graphics have gotten realistic and players have gotten older. The fact that so many games look and play the exact same now doesnt help.

There are plenty of puzzle, sports and racing games available for people who dont want to play Dishonored or Shank. shiat,the biggest game a few years back was a rhythm game.
 
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