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(Reuters)   After just two weeks, new Palestinian prime minister has had enough   (reuters.com) divider line 96
    More: Interesting, Palestinian Prime Minister, Palestinians, Salam Fayyad, Fatah, political independents, Catherine Ashton, West Bank, Ramallah  
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3340 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jun 2013 at 5:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-21 08:55:36 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Obviously this vindicates Israel and proves that everything bad that happens to the Palestinians is self-inflicted and their own fault.


Somebody somewhere believes sh*t like that, but then, somebody else also believes that everything bad that happens to the Palestinians is Israel's fault.

This topic always brings out the nutters. That's why it's a reliable standby to generate some clicks.
 
2013-06-21 09:11:57 AM
NostroZ:
The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.

?  Are you being intentionally sarcastic or trolling ?

Do you also say, America was built on the graves of the Natives and "everything else follows from that".


Does anyone actually deny that Europeans invaded the US and wiped out almost all the native population except for a few small groups they corralled into reservations on shiat pieces of land?
 
2013-06-21 09:45:57 AM

sendtodave: clambam: Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab!

The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.


I think I see the problem.
 
2013-06-21 09:50:19 AM

clambam: Curse those Israelis for forcing the Palestinians to be corrupt kleptocrats! And look how Israel has maneuvered  Assad into use nerve gas on his own people! Meanwhile the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people continues as evil Jews lull innocent Arabs into a sense of false security by allowing their numbers to quadruple in the West Bank since 1967. Then, when they least expect it, Wham! Genocide! Booyah! And don't get me started on how the Jews' unwillingness to allow relentlessly hostile people who are not now and have never been citizens of Israel, free access to the entire country is apartheid. It's apartheid, I tell you! They have no homeland, certainly not that country next door where they make up 60% of the population! Or the Israeli land grab which can be measured in acres per year--acres per year!--which will result in the complete occupation of the West Bank some time in the late 2070's. Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab! It's not fair! Why won't the cursed Israelis let their neighbors kills them?


What was that? Projection? Perfidy? "Make up loads of shiat then hide the true shiat amongst it"?
It certainly wasn't funny.. not even Fark funny
 
2013-06-21 09:57:21 AM

NostroZ: sendtodave: clambam: Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab!

The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.

?  Are you being intentionally sarcastic or trolling ?

Do you also say, America was built on the graves of the Natives and "everything else follows from that".


Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

They're exactly the same!
 
2013-06-21 09:59:15 AM

Mrfusticle: clambam: Curse those Israelis for forcing the Palestinians to be corrupt kleptocrats! And look how Israel has maneuvered  Assad into use nerve gas on his own people! Meanwhile the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people continues as evil Jews lull innocent Arabs into a sense of false security by allowing their numbers to quadruple in the West Bank since 1967. Then, when they least expect it, Wham! Genocide! Booyah! And don't get me started on how the Jews' unwillingness to allow relentlessly hostile people who are not now and have never been citizens of Israel, free access to the entire country is apartheid. It's apartheid, I tell you! They have no homeland, certainly not that country next door where they make up 60% of the population! Or the Israeli land grab which can be measured in acres per year--acres per year!--which will result in the complete occupation of the West Bank some time in the late 2070's. Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab! It's not fair! Why won't the cursed Israelis let their neighbors kills them?

What was that? Projection? Perfidy? "Make up loads of shiat then hide the true shiat amongst it"?
It certainly wasn't funny.. not even Fark funny


actually it was pretty funny because that IS what lots of "Palestinians" believe.

but please, let's be Islamic apologists.
 
2013-06-21 10:00:40 AM

magores: sendtodave: clambam: Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab!

The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.

I think I see the problem.


Shalom!
www.rugusavay.com
 
2013-06-21 10:01:26 AM

frepnog: Mrfusticle: clambam: Curse those Israelis for forcing the Palestinians to be corrupt kleptocrats! And look how Israel has maneuvered  Assad into use nerve gas on his own people! Meanwhile the Israeli genocide against the Palestinian people continues as evil Jews lull innocent Arabs into a sense of false security by allowing their numbers to quadruple in the West Bank since 1967. Then, when they least expect it, Wham! Genocide! Booyah! And don't get me started on how the Jews' unwillingness to allow relentlessly hostile people who are not now and have never been citizens of Israel, free access to the entire country is apartheid. It's apartheid, I tell you! They have no homeland, certainly not that country next door where they make up 60% of the population! Or the Israeli land grab which can be measured in acres per year--acres per year!--which will result in the complete occupation of the West Bank some time in the late 2070's. Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab! It's not fair! Why won't the cursed Israelis let their neighbors kills them?

What was that? Projection? Perfidy? "Make up loads of shiat then hide the true shiat amongst it"?
It certainly wasn't funny.. not even Fark funny

actually it was pretty funny because that IS what lots of "Palestinians" believe.

but please, let's be Islamic apologists.


Who are these "Palestinians" you're referring to? I seemed to have missed their seat on the UN
 
2013-06-21 10:02:49 AM

Mrfusticle: Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.


Except that it was less than 200 years ago.
It also involved genocide and outright denial of legal American/Native contracts, to the point of Jackson going against the US Supreme Court in killing/removing the Natives.

Israel is COMPLETELY different.  No genocide. Land was purchased from Arabs and Jews lived in the region since antiquity.

But, it's funny how your white guilt does not allow you to see the difference.
 
2013-06-21 10:11:30 AM

hobberwickey: Translation:  Only Hamas Republicans.  Only their version of Sharia Christianity.  No Fatah Democrats.  No negotiations.  Not even with their own people.  This is not a Democratic state.  This is not how a Democracy functions.

Hmm... so glad America's so much different.


While I do see how the extremists will not negotiate with anyone.  It is important to notice similarities in human nature, while also understanding the differences in society.

In America, we do NOT have a functioning version of religious law.  Our country has it codified that religion is separated from the state.  Sure we can talk about blue laws and how prohibition got into the constitution and then out, but currently, practically and legally, we as a country emphasize freedom of religion and choice.  (Not counting the old white Rep cooks, but speaking of the majority population and American ethos)

In the Middle East there is NO HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY.
They have NEVER had it and they do NOT WORK in an independently minded fashion.  They are a TRIBAL culture.  They vote with their tribe.  There is no debate or discussion.  You are either WITH US or AGAINST US.  That's how extremists work, all the time (not just after 9/11, as with Bush).
 
2013-06-21 10:17:42 AM

Mrfusticle: Who are these "Palestinians" you're referring to? I seemed to have missed their seat on the UN


there is not and has never been a "Palestine".
 
2013-06-21 10:21:07 AM

NostroZ: Mrfusticle: Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

Except that it was less than 200 years ago.
It also involved genocide and outright denial of legal American/Native contracts, to the point of Jackson going against the US Supreme Court in killing/removing the Natives.

Israel is COMPLETELY different.  No genocide. Land was purchased from Arabs and Jews lived in the region since antiquity.

But, it's funny how your white guilt does not allow you to see the difference.


Sarcasm meter in the shop?
What recognised nation did the Native Americans belong to?
White am I?
 
2013-06-21 10:21:58 AM

frepnog: Mrfusticle: Who are these "Palestinians" you're referring to? I seemed to have missed their seat on the UN

there is not and has never been a "Palestine".


Lol .. And we have always been at war with Eurasia
 
2013-06-21 10:27:29 AM

NostroZ: n the Middle East there is NO HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY.
They have NEVER had it and they do NOT WORK in an independently minded fashion.  They are a TRIBAL culture.  They vote with their tribe.  There is no debate or discussion.  You are either WITH US or AGAINST US.  That's how extremists work, all the time (not just after 9/11, as with Bush).


It's rare to see such an accurate description of Middle-East mentality on Fark.

Reminds me of the "arab spring" protests in Egypt, where western news agencies were showing non-religious people marching in Cairo holding signs 'grow your brain not your beard' and they seriously thought Egypt will be a democratic heaven once the elections are held.
Anyone with a tiny understanding of the region's mentality knew where this clusterfark was headed. People think that Egypt is made of the secular looking people who marched the streets of Cairo and they were shocked, SHOCKED i tell you, when the first thing they did is turn Egypt into a fundamentalist islamic theocracy.
 
2013-06-21 10:29:07 AM

Mrfusticle: NostroZ: Mrfusticle: Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

Except that it was less than 200 years ago.
It also involved genocide and outright denial of legal American/Native contracts, to the point of Jackson going against the US Supreme Court in killing/removing the Natives.

Israel is COMPLETELY different.  No genocide. Land was purchased from Arabs and Jews lived in the region since antiquity.

But, it's funny how your white guilt does not allow you to see the difference.

Sarcasm meter in the shop?
What recognised nation did the Native Americans belong to?


There was the Navajo Nation.  Also, the Iroquois League of Nations.  Etc. etc.

Wait, are you arguing that the contracts the United States signed with the Natives were false since they did not have a whatever you would deem a 'recognized' nation?

I'm done trying to have a discussion with someone who is ambigious, sarcastic, and looking to poke holes instead of actually say anything concrete.

Good luck trolling someone else with your sarcasm and off-topic discussions.
Please remember this is a thread about the Palestinians kicking out a moderate elected Prime Minister out of their government because he would dare negotiate with the West.  This is a story about Hamas enforcing the strictest control over the Palestinians.  Don't try to weasel this into something it's not.
 
2013-06-21 10:32:40 AM

TappingTheVein: NostroZ: n the Middle East there is NO HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY.
They have NEVER had it and they do NOT WORK in an independently minded fashion.  They are a TRIBAL culture.  They vote with their tribe.  There is no debate or discussion.  You are either WITH US or AGAINST US.  That's how extremists work, all the time (not just after 9/11, as with Bush).

It's rare to see such an accurate description of Middle-East mentality on Fark.

Reminds me of the "arab spring" protests in Egypt, where western news agencies were showing non-religious people marching in Cairo holding signs 'grow your brain not your beard' and they seriously thought Egypt will be a democratic heaven once the elections are held.
Anyone with a tiny understanding of the region's mentality knew where this clusterfark was headed. People think that Egypt is made of the secular looking people who marched the streets of Cairo and they were shocked, SHOCKED i tell you, when the first thing they did is turn Egypt into a fundamentalist islamic theocracy.


Thank you for a little bit of sensibility.  I sometimes feel like I'm talking to myself on these topic, since it's VERY hard to tell someone that people in another side of the world act/think/value different things than they do.  It's funny how ultra LIBERALS, can't understand that there are people who do not think like them, and that's just HOW THE WORLD WORKS.  We all still have to get along somehow.

I blame Disney for this ridiculous monochromatic view of the world.
 
2013-06-21 10:43:32 AM

NostroZ: Mrfusticle: NostroZ: Mrfusticle: Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

Except that it was less than 200 years ago.
It also involved genocide and outright denial of legal American/Native contracts, to the point of Jackson going against the US Supreme Court in killing/removing the Natives.

Israel is COMPLETELY different.  No genocide. Land was purchased from Arabs and Jews lived in the region since antiquity.

But, it's funny how your white guilt does not allow you to see the difference.

Sarcasm meter in the shop?
What recognised nation did the Native Americans belong to?

There was the Navajo Nation.  Also, the Iroquois League of Nations.  Etc. etc.

Wait, are you arguing that the contracts the United States signed with the Natives were false since they did not have a whatever you would deem a 'recognized' nation?

I'm done trying to have a discussion with someone who is ambigious, sarcastic, and looking to poke holes instead of actually say anything concrete.

Good luck trolling someone else with your sarcasm and off-topic discussions.
Please remember this is a thread about the Palestinians kicking out a moderate elected Prime Minister out of their government because he would dare negotiate with the West.  This is a story about Hamas enforcing the strictest control over the Palestinians.  Don't try to weasel this into something it's not.


I'm not a troll but I'd rather be one than a zionist shill.

My favourite thread in ages was that caveman Libertarian one.. Not because any of the jokes were especially funny but because all of the Libertarian troopers who came out to angrily and earnestly berate everyone for "not understanding" and being "off topic" were mocked and not engaged .. which is exactly what should happen to the likes of you.

I've had enough trying, or even reading someone else trying, to get the point across that Israel is in part to blame for the situation she's in only to have endless semantic, obfuscatory bullshiat flowing from you cloth eared herberts so I'm just going to stick to mocking from now on.
 
2013-06-21 10:49:43 AM

TappingTheVein: NostroZ: n the Middle East there is NO HISTORY OF DEMOCRACY.
They have NEVER had it and they do NOT WORK in an independently minded fashion.  They are a TRIBAL culture.  They vote with their tribe.  There is no debate or discussion.  You are either WITH US or AGAINST US.  That's how extremists work, all the time (not just after 9/11, as with Bush).

It's rare to see such an accurate description of Middle-East mentality on Fark.

Reminds me of the "arab spring" protests in Egypt, where western news agencies were showing non-religious people marching in Cairo holding signs 'grow your brain not your beard' and they seriously thought Egypt will be a democratic heaven once the elections are held.
Anyone with a tiny understanding of the region's mentality knew where this clusterfark was headed. People think that Egypt is made of the secular looking people who marched the streets of Cairo and they were shocked, SHOCKED i tell you, when the first thing they did is turn Egypt into a fundamentalist islamic theocracy.


Imagine if those protests happened in the US (ie the US was governed by populist, backward religious zealots or military dictators) .. It would be young students and middle class types demanding more political and economic freedom.. But wait! That's all very well on the surface but if they actually got their way and had *gasp* elections then the country would be taken over by even worse fundamentalist throwbacks!

Pro-tip: Revolutions are  always executed by the middle class
 
2013-06-21 10:53:57 AM

Mrfusticle: I'm not a troll but I'd rather be one than a zionist shill.
...
I've had enough trying, or even reading someone else trying, to get the point across that Israel is in part to blame for the situation she's in only to have endless semantic, obfuscatory bullshiat flowing from you cloth eared herberts so I'm just going to stick to mocking from now on.


Please see how your last sentence COMPLETELY contradicts your first.

Here's the definition of a TROLL, in case you missed it.
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. Instead of having a REAL conversation about why the Palestinians drown their moderates and only want to have control by the extremist, religiously based, Hamas (vs. secular Fatah, from which party this Prime Minister who was ousted due to 'questions about his power'.)

Go ahead, make fun all you want.
It only makes you look like a childish troll looking for attention from daddy.
 
2013-06-21 10:59:44 AM

Mrfusticle: magine if those protests happened in the US (ie the US was governed by populist, backward religious zealots or military dictators) .. It would be young students and middle class types demanding more political and economic freedom.. But wait! That's all very well on the surface but if they actually got their way and had *gasp* elections then the country would be taken over by even worse fundamentalist throwbacks!

Pro-tip: Revolutions are  always executed by the middle class


Um, my point was that the clusterfark in Egypt was seen miles away to anyone who knew how the Middle-East works.
The majority of voting people in Egypt are not young students or middle class and the difference between the US and Egypt is extreme.
 
2013-06-21 11:00:05 AM

Mrfusticle: Pro-tip: Revolutions are  always executed by the middle class


Question being, WHO IS the 'middle class' of Egypt or the Palestinians.

Is it a religious fundamentalist who practices honor killings?  Is it a secular intellectual?  Is it a generational militant tribesmen (i.e. Afghanistan)?


You're trying to paint ALL 'middle class' people with one brush stroke and it's false.
Every country has a middle of the pyramid... but THEY ARE DIFFERENT TOPS on each Pyramid and it follows different middles & bottoms.

Lets be more specific in who we are talking about.  The devil is in the details and cultures are quiet different as you travel the world.
 
2013-06-21 11:04:15 AM

TappingTheVein: Mrfusticle: magine if those protests happened in the US (ie the US was governed by populist, backward religious zealots or military dictators) .. It would be young students and middle class types demanding more political and economic freedom.. But wait! That's all very well on the surface but if they actually got their way and had *gasp* elections then the country would be taken over by even worse fundamentalist throwbacks!

Pro-tip: Revolutions are  always executed by the middle class

Um, my point was that the clusterfark in Egypt was seen miles away to anyone who knew how the Middle-East works.
The majority of voting people in Egypt are not young students or middle class and the difference between the US and Egypt is extreme.


Thank you good sir for bringing along a sense of reality to this Fark thread.

In my heart of hearts, I wish people who see what ACTUALLY happened vs. what they HOPE would happen.  This has been the case with so many things. The Arab Spring, Obama's campaign promises, the Iraq war, etc. etc. etc.

It seems that the hardest thing in the world is to say:  I hoped it would work out this way, but it did not.  So let's change how we do things.
 
2013-06-21 11:08:56 AM

NostroZ: the Palestinians drown their moderates


This phrase sums up pretty succinctly the entire problem, for both the Israelis and the Palestinians: the extremists within both, and they feed each other.
 
2013-06-21 11:10:36 AM

NostroZ: Mrfusticle: I'm not a troll but I'd rather be one than a zionist shill.
...
I've had enough trying, or even reading someone else trying, to get the point across that Israel is in part to blame for the situation she's in only to have endless semantic, obfuscatory bullshiat flowing from you cloth eared herberts so I'm just going to stick to mocking from now on.

Please see how your last sentence COMPLETELY contradicts your first.

Here's the definition of a TROLL, in case you missed it.
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. Instead of having a REAL conversation about why the Palestinians drown their moderates and only want to have control by the extremist, religiously based, Hamas (vs. secular Fatah, from which party this Prime Minister who was ousted due to 'questions about his power'.)

Go ahead, make fun all you want.
It only makes you look like a childish troll looking for attention from daddy.


Huh? So, it's my fault you don't know what a troll is? One can mock without being a troll.. Trolling is saying something you don't necessarily believe to get the rise out of someone else.. I certainly don't want the rise out of you, thanks.

Regarding your colourful "drowning moderates" metaphor: Are you really unaware of the tendency for extremists to prosper in bad economic circumstances *koff* *Weimar*? And the fact that if a meaningful resolution is to be found you still have to deal with the extremists *hack* *Northern Ireland*. No?.. And  I'm the troll.
 
2013-06-21 11:14:58 AM

TappingTheVein: Mrfusticle: magine if those protests happened in the US (ie the US was governed by populist, backward religious zealots or military dictators) .. It would be young students and middle class types demanding more political and economic freedom.. But wait! That's all very well on the surface but if they actually got their way and had *gasp* elections then the country would be taken over by even worse fundamentalist throwbacks!

Pro-tip: Revolutions are  always executed by the middle class

Um, my point was that the clusterfark in Egypt was seen miles away to anyone who knew how the Middle-East works.
The majority of voting people in Egypt are not young students or middle class and the difference between the US and Egypt is extreme.


I got that, and my point was the majority of people, wherever you go in the World, are backwards hicks who shouldn't be in charge of a cake stand.. Does that mean we shouldn't support the Egyptian protesters?
 
2013-06-21 11:20:57 AM

Mrfusticle: I got that, and my point was the majority of people, wherever you go in the World, are backwards hicks who shouldn't be in charge of a cake stand.. Does that mean we shouldn't support the Egyptian protesters?


Support away. A false sense of hope is better than no sense of hope at all, i guess.
 
2013-06-21 11:23:06 AM

Mrfusticle: Regarding your colourful "drowning moderates" metaphor: Are you really unaware of the tendency for extremists to prosper in bad economic circumstances *koff* *Weimar*? And the fact that if a meaningful resolution is to be found you still have to deal with the extremists *hack* *Northern Ireland*. No?.. And  I'm the troll.


Pardon me, it is extremely difficult to distinguish between your sarcasm, off-topic references, and stated desire to 'mock' as a form of regular communication for trolling.  It's certainly not how well intention-ed individuals have a discussion.

Based on your spelling of 'color' with a U, I'll write you off as British and assume that the sarcastic talking down tone that your posts have are a cultural practice from where you were raised, and not intentional trolling.

With that said, I am having a hard time pinning down your position regarding the Palestinians following this article.  At present, it sounds as though you hold a victim mentality regarding their actions and despite the fact that the stated article shows a moderate intellectual being driven out by extremist fundamentalists, you view this as a result of 'bad economic conditions'.

Yet, who is responsible for the economic conditions of a country?  Their elected leaders.  Fatah and Hamas.  Are you of the position that Israel is responsible for the economy of a country they are not in charge of and have no say in (except in war - as all country do)?
 
2013-06-21 11:29:14 AM

TappingTheVein: Mrfusticle: I got that, and my point was the majority of people, wherever you go in the World, are backwards hicks who shouldn't be in charge of a cake stand.. Does that mean we shouldn't support the Egyptian protesters?

Support away. A false sense of hope is better than no sense of hope at all, i guess.


I remember when they let Mandela out and a lot of people I knew who had connections to South Africa were convinced that would be the end of the country.. The blacks would exact revenge on the whites for their treatment, investment would disappear etc. Now, none of them were racist (they were my friends so they wouldn't be) but they genuinely believed suddenly enfranchising (the poorest) 80% of the country would be a disaster.

South Africa has a lot of problems now ... But it's going to survive.. and no one would claim the upheaval of removing the apartheid regime wasn't worth it.


/Naive? Maybe
//All too aware that Palestine doesn't have a Mandela
 
2013-06-21 11:35:01 AM

NostroZ: Mrfusticle: Regarding your colourful "drowning moderates" metaphor: Are you really unaware of the tendency for extremists to prosper in bad economic circumstances *koff* *Weimar*? And the fact that if a meaningful resolution is to be found you still have to deal with the extremists *hack* *Northern Ireland*. No?.. And  I'm the troll.

Pardon me, it is extremely difficult to distinguish between your sarcasm, off-topic references, and stated desire to 'mock' as a form of regular communication for trolling.  It's certainly not how well intention-ed individuals have a discussion.

Yeah, I'm sorry too.. the mocking tone didn't last very long.. guess it's not my style.

Based on your spelling of 'color' with a U, I'll write you off as British and assume that the sarcastic talking down tone that your posts have are a cultural practice from where you were raised, and not intentional trolling.
We do like a spot of sarcasm with our tea and cucumber sandwiches

With that said, I am having a hard time pinning down your position regarding the Palestinians following this article.  At present, it sounds as though you hold a victim mentality regarding their actions and despite the fact that the stated article shows a moderate intellectual being driven out by extremist fundamentalists, you view this as a result of 'bad economic conditions'.
I view the rise of any political extremism to be, for the most part, economic because that's what has happened every time in history

Yet, who is responsible for the economic conditions of a country?  Their elected leaders.  Fatah and Hamas.  Are you of the position that Israel is responsible for the economy of a country they are not in charge of and have no say in (except in war - as all country do)?
The buck stops with leaders, sure but I'd say responsibility requires them having some ability to make it better or worse.
 
2013-06-21 11:37:06 AM

Mrfusticle: I remember when they let Mandela out and a lot of people I knew who had connections to South Africa were convinced that would be the end of the country.. The blacks would exact revenge on the whites for their treatment, investment would disappear etc. Now, none of them were racist (they were my friends so they wouldn't be) but they genuinely believed suddenly enfranchising (the poorest) 80% of the country would be a disaster.

South Africa has a lot of problems now ... But it's going to survive.. and no one would claim the upheaval of removing the apartheid regime wasn't worth it.


Which has no relevance whatsoever to the tribal mentality and culture of Egypt.
I have no doubt in my mind that Egypt will one day be a modern society with an actual democracy. In a dozen or so generations.
 
2013-06-21 11:49:35 AM

Mrfusticle: Yet, who is responsible for the economic conditions of a country?  Their elected leaders.  Fatah and Hamas.  Are you of the position that Israel is responsible for the economy of a country they are not in charge of and have no say in (except in war - as all country do)?
The buck stops with leaders, sure but I'd say responsibility requires them having some ability to make it better or worse.


Yes, so much yes to this one good sir.

There is a famous phrase for this and it's:  "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity." (for peace)

What do you think Hamas is doing right now by ousting Fatah's Prime Minister?  Do you think this will be better or worse for the Palestinians (to have an essential dictatorship by a Theocratic Hamas)?
 
2013-06-21 02:12:14 PM

Mrfusticle: NostroZ: sendtodave: clambam: Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab!

The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.

?  Are you being intentionally sarcastic or trolling ?

Do you also say, America was built on the graves of the Natives and "everything else follows from that".

Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

They're exactly the same!


The U.S. was actually not a major backer of Israel's formation.  In fact, Truman has discussed a Jewish autonomous region in a Palestinian state.  The Soviets, Brits, and French were the big activists in creating Israel.
 
2013-06-21 03:09:26 PM

Ricardo Klement: Mrfusticle: NostroZ: sendtodave: clambam: Genocide! Apartheid! Land grab!

The state of Israel itself was a lad grab.

Everything else follows from that.

?  Are you being intentionally sarcastic or trolling ?

Do you also say, America was built on the graves of the Natives and "everything else follows from that".

Yo're right! The Israel land grab was performed in the modern era with the tacit consent of the UN and backed by the US --- The NA holocaust was perpetrated hundreds of years ago by some antediluvian thugs.

They're exactly the same!

The U.S. was actually not a major backer of Israel's formation.  In fact, Truman has discussed a Jewish autonomous region in a Palestinian state.  The Soviets, Brits, and French were the big activists in creating Israel.


Don't you know that's the LIBERAL answer to everything... it's ALL THE SAME.
Don't think about differences in people, politics, or religion... it's all the same.
Don't call out Hamas for killing their own people who are moderates, because Israel also kills people they suspect of terrorism... and it's all the same.

Easier to call it that than to actually think / learn the differences.
 
2013-06-21 04:12:28 PM

NostroZ: Don't you know that's the LIBERAL answer to everything... it's ALL THE SAME.


It's always interesting when a total stranger on the Internet tells me what I think. Where do you people come up with this crap?
 
2013-06-21 04:18:59 PM

Wooly Bully: NostroZ: the Palestinians drown their moderates

This phrase sums up pretty succinctly the entire problem, for both the Israelis and the Palestinians: the extremists within both, and they feed each other.


It used to be that you could say that the difference between Israelis and Palestinians is that Palestinians kill their moderates.  Then Rabin got assassinated, and you really can't say that anymore.
 
2013-06-21 04:42:35 PM

Wooly Bully: NostroZ: Don't you know that's the LIBERAL answer to everything... it's ALL THE SAME.

It's always interesting when a total stranger on the Internet tells me what I think. Where do you people come up with this crap?


That was hilarious!
I know you were not trying to categorize 'you people' when you were offended at me categorizing 'liberal people', which makes this HILARIOUS!

Literally, the pot calling the kettle black!
You people... oh, that's rich!

You are getting me on a good start to the weekend with this humor.
 
2013-06-21 04:54:35 PM

NostroZ: Wooly Bully: NostroZ: Don't you know that's the LIBERAL answer to everything... it's ALL THE SAME.

It's always interesting when a total stranger on the Internet tells me what I think. Where do you people come up with this crap?

That was hilarious!
I know you were not trying to categorize 'you people' when you were offended at me categorizing 'liberal people', which makes this HILARIOUS!

Literally, the pot calling the kettle black!
You people... oh, that's rich!

You are getting me on a good start to the weekend with this humor.


Good job defending your idiotic generalization there, champ!
 
2013-06-21 05:10:47 PM

Wooly Bully: You are getting me on a good start to the weekend with this humor.

Good job defending your idiotic generalization there, champ!


Get that hockey stick that's lodge up your ass the long way, out of there, and smell the turd blossoms of "you people" that you've obviously hypocritically categorized your perceived opposition as.

Do you have a position on this Palestinian topic?  Or is your position to stick your head up your end to listen for advice?
 
2013-06-21 05:41:03 PM

TappingTheVein: People think that Egypt is made of the secular looking people who marched the streets of Cairo and they were shocked, SHOCKED i tell you, when the first thing they did is turn Egypt into a fundamentalist islamic theocracy.


a) The other guy had ties to Hosni Mubarak's regime. It's understandable why they wouldn't want to go back to that.
b) That's the whole point of democracy. While it may be a net negative for individual rights, it's their choice to make.
 
2013-06-21 06:08:34 PM

themindiswatching: The other guy had ties to Hosni Mubarak's regime. It's understandable why they wouldn't want to go back to that.


"The other guy" ? there were more than 20 registered different parties for the elections.

themindiswatching: That's the whole point of democracy. While it may be a net negative for individual rights, it's their choice to make.


No it's not. The point of democracy is not to self destruct and turn into a fundamentalist theocracy.
Democracy is not to blame, it's the mentality and culture of the voters.
 
2013-06-21 06:24:19 PM

TappingTheVein: themindiswatching: The other guy had ties to Hosni Mubarak's regime. It's understandable why they wouldn't want to go back to that.

"The other guy" ? there were more than 20 registered different parties for the elections.


13 people for the first round. Second round only had two candidates.

/also, the MB won the rural vote more than the urban vote if you look at the map in the link
 
2013-06-21 06:36:31 PM

themindiswatching: 13 people for the first round.


Meaning they had the opportunity to vote for someone other than Mr. fundamentalist islamic nutjob and "the other guy".

themindiswatching: also, the MB won the rural vote more than the urban vote if you look at the map in the link


That was my point. The majority of voters are not secular students or "middle class". They are the rural mostly religious residents who will vote for whoever their Imam tells them to.
 
2013-06-21 06:45:00 PM

TappingTheVein: whoever their Imam tells them to.


This sounds awfully familiar. Almost as though it's a phenomenon that's not just in the Middle East.
 
2013-06-21 06:55:40 PM

themindiswatching: This sounds awfully familiar. Almost as though it's a phenomenon that's not just in the Middle East.


1. In the US it's illegal, in Egypt it's the norm.
2. In the US the fundamentalist religious do not make the majority of the population, in Egypt they do.
3. The US is not a tribal society.
4. In the US democracy has been around for more than 5 years, or 10, or a century. In Egypt ? not so much.
5. The US will not at the first given chance turn itself int a fundamentalist theocracy.

I can go on. It sounds awfully familiar to you because you have no clue about Middle Eastern culture and mentality
You're actually strengthening NostroZ's claim by trying to paint it as the same as the US. It's not, not by a long shot.
 
2013-06-21 07:23:20 PM

TappingTheVein: 1. In the US it's illegal, in Egypt it's the norm.
2. In the US the fundamentalist religious do not make the majority of the population, in Egypt they do.
3. The US is not a tribal society.
4. In the US democracy has been around for more than 5 years, or 10, or a century. In Egypt ? not so much.
5. The US will not at the first given chance turn itself int a fundamentalist theocracy.


1. Does the US carry out the punishment for groups who do this by removing their tax-exempt status? I have not heard of the IRS actually doing so. (I also have the feeling that if the IRS tried, that part would get thrown out on First Amendment grounds.)
2. Define "fundamentalist".
3. Humans are tribal in general, it just manifests itself differently in the West. Sports teams, for example.
4. It won't be if we continue to tell the Middle East that their democracy "isn't good enough" because they elect people we don't like.
5. It won't  now.Things may have been different before the 20th century, though. Oh wait, they were.

Look, I'm not saying there aren't real problems in that part of the world. It's just now that the Middle East is attempting to have a democracy, certain people in the West think that's a bad thing because it's not like ours yet. We've had a few hundred years to iron out the issues, and I imagine the Internet and modern technology will let the Middle East iron out its own issues faster.
 
2013-06-22 04:27:06 AM

themindiswatching: 1. Does the US carry out the punishment for groups who do this by removing their tax-exempt status? I have not heard of the IRS actually doing so. (I also have the feeling that if the IRS tried, that part would get thrown out on First Amendment grounds.)


1. You're comparing what happened in a single El Paso church in Texas, which is illegal under federal law, to a nation wide accepted phenomena. Do you understand how your comparison is a farking joke ?

themindiswatching: 2. Define "fundamentalist".


2. Do some reading on the Muslim Brotherhood. If you're comparing them to the majority of the US population, who consider themselves religious, you are out of your farking mind.

themindiswatching: 3. Humans are tribal in general, it just manifests itself differently in the West. Sports teams, for example.


3. I can't stress enough how little you seem to understand the term 'tribal' in an arab society. Again, it does not resemble what you are trying to present as similar to the West, 'manifest itself differently' is a huge understatement and that was my point. Do some reading on the subject.

themindiswatching: 4. It won't be if we continue to tell the Middle East that their democracy "isn't good enough" because they elect people we don't like.


4. It's not "people we don't like" it's turning a democracy into a fundamentalist islamic theocracy, as in the opposite of democracy. Do you understand the difference between democracy and a theocracy ? one is not like the other.

themindiswatching: 5. It won't  now.Things may have been different before the 20th century, though. Oh wait, they were.


5. Are you seriously bringing in something that happened almost 2 centuries ago as relevant to what i said ? really ?

themindiswatching: We've had a few hundred years to iron out the issues


Again this was exactly my point.

themindiswatching: people in the West think that's a bad thing because it's not like ours yet.


I don't think it's bad, i just think an islamic theocracy is not a democracy. Strange i know.
 
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