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(World Review)   The Syrian civil war is now an international proxy war. No-one holds all the cards, but it is clear that the West no longer runs the game   (worldreview.info) divider line 96
    More: Scary, proxy wars, LCC, Syrians, Russia, regional power, Golan Heights, summit meetings, High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy  
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6183 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jun 2013 at 10:21 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-20 09:03:29 AM  
Which is why I've been saying from the start that the US should stay away from Syria. There is no good outcome and no good guys to root for.
 
2013-06-20 09:32:27 AM  

simplicimus: Which is why I've been saying from the start that the US should stay away from Syria. There is no good outcome and no good guys to root for.


For sure.  I have a friend who's half Syrian and still has cousins who live there (her family is from that minority backing Assad originally) and I asked her if there was anything we could do right now for peace there.  She said frankly by this point there's too much blood on each side and there's no way out of several years of civil war.

Which really sucks, but the US certainly doesn't need to muck about in it.
 
2013-06-20 09:57:42 AM  
Since when does the west control Syria?
 
2013-06-20 10:24:47 AM  
 
2013-06-20 10:25:01 AM  
So is it Vietnam all over again for the US or Afghanistan all over again for Russia?
 
2013-06-20 10:25:03 AM  
Conservatives (and even some liberals) still have this fantasy that we can "liberate" people in the Middle East and they will love us and see us as the Great Nation of Heroes we are. It's all bullshiat.
 
2013-06-20 10:25:37 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Since when does the west control Syria?


More to the point, is there anyone who actually believed strongly enough that the West was controlling anything over there that they're surprised by this story?

Are there citizens deluded enough to think that the US is some kind of master control country for the world and all the other countries are allowed to do what we permit?
 
2013-06-20 10:25:53 AM  

Oldiron_79: So is it Vietnam all over again for the US or Afghanistan all over again for Russia?


Watergate all over for Cuba.
 
2013-06-20 10:26:24 AM  

simplicimus: Which is why I've been saying from the start that the US should stay away from Syria. There is no good outcome and no good guys to root for.


As much as the political left threw around analogues to Vietnam for both Iraq and Afghanistan, they're eerily quiet on Syria. This one seems to have at least as much in common as the others- another major nation doing supply for the other side, neither side being all that great, no compelling US interest, etc.

We're not doing ourselves any favors by pitching in there. Our assistance in Libya didn't win us their undying devotion. We'll get less in Syria.
 
2013-06-20 10:26:46 AM  
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-20 10:27:44 AM  
Very simple solution.  It's a civil war.  Everyone else stay the fark out of it and let the Syrians work it out.

I know, I know.  Too logical and too simple.  It'll never happen.
 
2013-06-20 10:28:37 AM  
Syria is different kind of conflict altogether.
 
2013-06-20 10:29:40 AM  
let Allah sort it out
 
2013-06-20 10:30:58 AM  
Has the West ever?
 
2013-06-20 10:32:24 AM  
The Arab states and Turkey have called on the US to take action.


You f*ckers. You can take care of it yourselves.
 
2013-06-20 10:36:10 AM  

Oldiron_79: So is it Vietnam all over again for the US or Afghanistan all over again for Russia?


www.destgulch.com
 
2013-06-20 10:36:21 AM  
Conservatives (and even some liberals) still have this fantasy that we can "liberate" people in the Middle East and they will love us and see us as the Great Nation of Heroes we are.
I believed this *before* Iraq. I figured Iraq was the most likely place for us to succeed in restarting a modern democracy. After watching those idiots throw away a priceless opportunity to get it together, I now officially don't give a damm about the Middle east at all, and am in favor of doing anything it takes to accelerate their own self destruction, including backing away and letting them have at it.

They're hopeless. They're barbarians. The planet will be better off the sooner they destroy themselves.
 
2013-06-20 10:36:29 AM  

BigNumber12: The Arab states and Turkey have called on the US to take action.

You f*ckers. You can take care of it yourselves.


But then they wouldn't be able to have their regional political problems solved while at the same stage anti-American protests to keep their people happy distracted.
 
2013-06-20 10:36:38 AM  

silverjets: Very simple solution.  It's a civil war.  Everyone else stay the fark out of it and let the Syrians work it out.

I know, I know.  Too logical and too simple.  It'll never happen.


Give it a week and someone will inevitably scream, "but the children!!!!!"
 
2013-06-20 10:37:09 AM  
Wait...NOW it's a proxy war? It wasn't one when Russia, Iran, Israel and the United States started messing about?
 
2013-06-20 10:38:14 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Conservatives (and even some liberals) still have this fantasy that we can "liberate" people in the Middle East and they will love us and see us as the Great Nation of Heroes we are. It's all bullshiat.


Why would conservatives care? I was under the impression they hate everybody, I can see more bleeding hearts worrying about what other people think of them.

/I dont give a shiat about what the rest of the world thinks of us.
 
2013-06-20 10:39:16 AM  
Ok, shut down the Wahabbi mosques and give the Kurds their own country and maybe we'll think about it.
 
2013-06-20 10:45:35 AM  
Wasn't there a recent story about Russia sending their prototype weapons to the region to see how they do under real combat conditions? Maybe this is just an aggression testing area that everyone forgot to officially designate.
 
2013-06-20 10:49:24 AM  
I love how the Left is now completely silent on Obama giving money and arms to Al-Qaeda.
We have no business getting involved in this one.
 
2013-06-20 10:50:53 AM  
"The spirit of hatred and fanaticism embedded in the hearts of the Arab Muslims against everything that is non-Muslim has been perpetually nurtured by the Islamic religion ... There is no hope that the situation will ever change. Therefore, the abolition of the mandate will expose the minorities in Syria to the dangers of death and annihilation, irrespective of the fact that such abolition will annihilate the freedom of thought and belief."  -- Sulayman al-Assad, the grandfather of Syria's current president.

(petition to the French government from Alawite separatists, 1936. Quoted in the New York Times)
 
2013-06-20 10:51:32 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Since when does the west control Syria?


This.

Since when do we have any interests in Syria at all?  Sometimes it's best to just pretend this is all taking place on Mars, and we have nothing to do with it.

Unfortunately, everyone seems to have some idea that they can help, and are bent on trying to arm one side or the other.  This includes the US of course.
That's just brilliant, guys.  You are NOT helping them by giving them more weapons to kill each other.  You are NOT helping to bring peace.  Unless your grand plan is to wait until they simply annialate one another.
 
2013-06-20 10:51:36 AM  

zepher: I love how the Left is now completely silent on Obama giving money and arms to Al-Qaeda.
We have no business getting involved in this one.


We should at least wait until we don't have a Muslim president.
 
2013-06-20 10:52:50 AM  
The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .
 
2013-06-20 10:54:11 AM  

mark12A: Conservatives (and even some liberals) still have this fantasy that we can "liberate" people in the Middle East and they will love us and see us as the Great Nation of Heroes we are.
I believed this *before* Iraq. I figured Iraq was the most likely place for us to succeed in restarting a modern democracy. After watching those idiots throw away a priceless opportunity to get it together, I now officially don't give a damm about the Middle east at all, and am in favor of doing anything it takes to accelerate their own self destruction, including backing away and letting them have at it.

They're hopeless. They're barbarians. The planet will be better off the sooner they destroy themselves.


This, That and the Other Thing.
 
2013-06-20 10:56:10 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: Conservatives (and even some liberals) still have this fantasy that we can "liberate" people in the Middle East and they will love us and see us as the Great Nation of Heroes we are. It's all bullshiat.


Nobody in power wants to liberate any people anywhere. That's just a catch-phrase they use to get support of the public for a war to benefit the politicians' backers.
 
2013-06-20 10:57:04 AM  
I'm as left as anyone and quite vocal about arming Al Qaeda. Don't. Don't do anything.
 
2013-06-20 10:57:45 AM  

mark12A: destroy themselves


Really no-win situation.  Almost nothing that western nations could do would produce a better result than just letting them fight it out internally.  On the other hand, extended brutal civil wars can destabilize the whole region, and it isn't like they will ever actually destroy themselves - they'll just beat themselves and their neighbours to a pulp continuously until something drastic changes.  When people think their survival is on the line, they just keep fighting.

Also, the author of this article needs to learn that sentences and paragraphs are different things.
 
2013-06-20 11:00:02 AM  
We can punish Russia by exporting LNG to Europe. But we should do that no matter what happens in Syria, it's just a bonus that it would ruin Pooty-poot's day.
 
2013-06-20 11:00:21 AM  

AccuJack: Are there citizens deluded enough to think that the US is some kind of master control country for the world and all the other countries are allowed to do what we permit?


Yes.

When it gets worrying is when there are presidents deluded enough to think that.
 
2013-06-20 11:03:56 AM  

simplicimus: The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .


wrong, wrong, not applicable
 
2013-06-20 11:24:51 AM  
What a proxy may look like:
img.fark.net
/Obscure?
 
2013-06-20 11:25:56 AM  
Hezbollah, Iran, al Qaeda, and every other malefactor spending their blood and treasure in an unwinnable stalemate and quagmire? Where's the downside in that?

Other than the suffering of millions of innocents...
 
2013-06-20 11:27:33 AM  

simplicimus: I'm as left as anyone and quite vocal about arming Al Qaeda. Don't. Don't do anything.


Sadly, doing nothing will mean more deaths.  Rebels aren't a coherent sensible bunch.  Regime means to clean house of all those pesky rebel rousers, political dissidents and Abdul who failed to pay his 2007 parking ticket.  If it also means that a few innocents get tossed in well -- they'll (regime) blame the rebels.

Is it another Sunni vs Shia conflict?  Probably.  Is it wrong to make current political Iranian body party of a bigger glass factory?  Yes, I am looking at you Israel.  Hezbollah aren't know to play nice if they loose.  What is required..is an Arab solution.  Hey, they have the man power, the money, but no balls.  Literally, none, a cleric took them away unless they play nice.
 
2013-06-20 11:32:42 AM  
Did the West ever really run the game? No.
 
2013-06-20 11:41:46 AM  

simplicimus: The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .


No. The ruling minority is Shia. Iran is helping Assad, the rebels are Sunni, backed by Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-06-20 11:48:23 AM  

MNguy: Oldiron_79: So is it Vietnam all over again for the US or Afghanistan all over again for Russia?

Watergate all over for Cuba.


This is Libya's Umbrella-ghazi!
 
2013-06-20 11:53:23 AM  

akula: As much as the political left threw around analogues to Vietnam for both Iraq and Afghanistan, they're eerily quiet on Syria. This one seems to have at least as much in common as the others- another major nation doing supply for the other side, neither side being all that great, no compelling US interest, etc.


I can't agree with that. Flipping through MSNBC and NPR in the morning, I've heard a ton of debate over national interest, eg there is none for us there. There's a lot more resistance to this on the left than either side wants to admit, albeit for different reasons.
 
2013-06-20 11:54:52 AM  

simplicimus: The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .


I hate to break this to you but Assad, his Alawites (a splinter of the shiates) Russia, Iran and Hezbollah are all on the same side.  The other side is the Sunnis including Al Aqaeda
 
2013-06-20 11:55:12 AM  
Yay Obama
 
2013-06-20 11:55:37 AM  

rwfan: simplicimus: The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .

I hate to break this to you but Assad, his Alawites (a splinter of the shiates) Russia, Iran and Hezbollah are all on the same side.  The other side is the Sunnis including Al Aqaeda


make the Al Qaeda
 
2013-06-20 11:56:03 AM  

Tman144: simplicimus: The Alarawi (ruling minority) are Russia's clients. The Shia majority (the rebels) are Iran's clients. Let the two of them work it out .

No. The ruling minority is Shia. Iran is helping Assad, the rebels are Sunni, backed by Saudi Arabia.


Mt mistake. Syria is:
Religions:
Sunni Muslim (Islam - official) 74%,
other Muslim (includes Alawite, Druze) 16%,
Christian (various denominations) 10%,
Jewish (tiny communities in Damascus, Al Qamishli, and Aleppo) .

Assad is alawite and presumably a ba'athist like his father. Iran is Shia. Egypt is sunni. So the ruling party is the minority Alawite (Shia).
 
2013-06-20 11:59:21 AM  
I'm still trying to figure out what our angle here is other than, "Because Israel."
 
2013-06-20 12:00:15 PM  
I say have the UN send Hezbollah or Al Qaeda a strongly worded letter when they commit atrocities but otherwise stay out of it.  Don't send weapons.
 
2013-06-20 12:05:57 PM  

zepher: I love how the Left is now completely silent on Obama giving money and arms to Al-Qaeda.
We have no business getting involved in this one.


This is a rare situation where the argument does not fall along political lines.  Don't forget that McCain has a hard on for arming the rebels too.

/Farkers seem to be pretty much all in the "don't do anything camp"
//and I agree
 
2013-06-20 12:09:00 PM  

Oldiron_79: So is it Vietnam all over again for the US or Afghanistan all over again for Russia?


Those weren't proxy wars for the US or the Soviet Union. Both nations had their troops directly involved in the wars.
 
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