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(Twitter)   In response to MS retracting XBone DRM, creator of XBone exclusive titles joins MS in destroying the XBone by promising to turn all game components into DLC   (twitter.com) divider line 90
    More: Followup, DRM, classical elements  
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5773 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Jun 2013 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-06-20 08:53:12 AM  
4 votes:
Cythraul:  What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales?

Money and frankly we're at the point where something has got to give IMHO.  When a game such as Tomb Raider can sell 6 million units. top the charts for it's released platforms and still be considered a financial flop by its publisher... there is a massive problem in the industry when it comes to both budgets AND inflating sales predictions to unreasonable levels (Tomb Raider was never going to sell the expected 12 - 20 million units it just wasn't, FFS it shifting 6 million is quite remarkable).

Of course the biggest problem these companies have is that they're fast running out of people to blame for these 'screw ups'.  In the 90's it was us PC gamers who bore the brunt of their ire; we were dirty evil thieves who needed constant watching.   Except now we ARE watched constantly in an environment that is DRM heavy and generally precludes 'casual piracy' (Steam, Origin, et al) and it's this 'casual piracy' which was apparently the big problem.   So it's not us.  It must be you console people because obviously it couldn't be the publishers fault due to living in a fantasy land where every 360 owner will buy 2+ copies of your game.

Now despite second hand games being around since the days of the 2600 this has become the industries bogeyman as piracy has been wiped out *snicker*, it's second hand games which are killing off publishers and forcing them to do all of this.   They'll biatch and moan, moan and biatch, stamp their little feet and point fingers until they get exactly what they want.   Which, when you look at the XBone is doing just that.

Once used games have been killed (or heavily curtailed in the publishers mind) then a new bogeyman will dutifully be summoned to take its place as the reason video games aren't making enough money.

And I haven't even gone in to the bullshiat of Game & GameStop being 'hated' whilst publishers throw them so many farking exclusive bits of tat.

/ Every one who brought a copy of Tomb Raider should send SquareEnix a letter of apology.
// And the £30 they failed to give the company for their second copy.
// Only slightly joking.
2013-06-20 09:39:38 AM  
3 votes:

AdamK: Tyrone Slothrop: Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.

From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.

yeah, you can't self-publish on any microsoft console despite the industry going in that direction


That's why I have high hopes in the Ouya, and Steambox.

Seriously people, buy an Ouya, and buy some games.  I am 99% sure I'm going to be replacing my desktop with a "Steam box" if/when they come out.  Steam for AAA games and Ouya/Android market for dollar games.
2013-06-20 09:22:29 AM  
3 votes:

narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy.


Ummm... no, it didn't, at least not with the freedom current consoles have with disc-based games.  Sharing was limited to one library that could be shared with up to 10 people, and if any one of those 10 is playing a game in that library, nobody else could play that game or any other game in that library.  And as for selling digital copies, XB1 never allowed for selling purely digital games, but it did restrict you to selling your disc-based games only to "authorized retailers".

narkor: Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).


The problem there is that consoles are already on the "razorblade" model -- get the razor (console) cheap, pay farkloads for the cartridges (games).  And then pay farkloads more for the DLC (which there is no analogy for in the razor world, but hey).

narkor: But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!


People keep saying this, but here's a news flash for you:  Gamestop wasn't going to be the ones who suffer from all this.  I'm sure they were the first ones to get signed up as an "authorized retailer"; to be honest, they're probably the entire reason the "authorized retailer" program existed.  Hell, with the exclusivity XB1 would have granted them, by taking away your ability to sell your games to a mom-and-pop shop or simply list them on eBay, they would have had free reign to ream you even more on their buyback prices.  And honestly, even if they were going to suffer, you're giving up a lot to make them suffer.  You're happily cutting off your nose to spite your face.
2013-06-20 09:08:58 AM  
3 votes:

RedPhoenix122: Jim from Saint Paul: There was ALWAYS going to be more tacked on DLC.

That was never going to change.

For example, this guy is acting like Activision was just going to give you the newest CoD with all the maps at once for $60. Horse pucky.

Tell me why it costs more to upgrade my BF3 account to the Premium edition than it does to outright buy a new BF3 Premium edition and start a new account.


Because EA.
2013-06-20 08:54:31 AM  
3 votes:

drjekel_mrhyde: What's the OMG all about? Don't all platforms do this already?


Yeah, I thought that was pretty much the AAA model at this point.  Take Arkham City (a pretty good game) as an example.  There were launch day DLC, that you could buy later.  There were other DLC that added characters, costumes, missions, etc.  All for the seemingly small price of $10 a piece. After a few times, you have a game that cost $100.  This is a good reason to always wait for the "Game of the Year" editions. (On a side note, how come every games seems to have a GoTY edition, even if it wasn't?)
2013-06-20 08:51:30 AM  
3 votes:

narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy. But the "we bought a disk lobby" won - so all that gets forgotten.

We're back to the status quo persisting for the forseeable future (there's no way that MS or Sony are going to change the model after the shiatstorm that just happened.

Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!


At no point did MS provide a plausable detailed plan on how the 'selling your digital copy' would actually work. They said you could do it, yet didn;t say for how much, at what times, NOTHING. Personally I was wating for those details and for them to lighten up on the 24 hour DRM restriction before deciding which system.

Don;t get all pissy with the internet for MS's lack of any discernable details on how they were going to make used games work.
2013-06-20 08:47:26 AM  
3 votes:
The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy. But the "we bought a disk lobby" won - so all that gets forgotten.

We're back to the status quo persisting for the forseeable future (there's no way that MS or Sony are going to change the model after the shiatstorm that just happened.

Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!
2013-06-20 08:33:00 AM  
3 votes:

Faddy: Is CliffyB even employed?


No.  And he's not making any XBox One exclusives. And it's not a promise, it's a prediction.  Subby lies to you.
2013-06-20 12:17:39 PM  
2 votes:
The guy responsible for Gears of War has something to say about tacked-on multiplayer and DLC. Which is kind of like Jean-Paul Akayesu having something to say about ethnic cleansing, but whatevs, we'd better all stop and listen anyway.
2013-06-20 11:21:58 AM  
2 votes:
If the industry is doomed without invasive, draconian DRM then, well, maybe the industry <b>should</b> be doomed.
2013-06-20 11:15:35 AM  
2 votes:

Ajanu: Kinect can be turned off. "
You can turn the Kinect sensor OFF by going to System Settings > Kinect Settings and choosing to turn the sensor OFF. The Kinect sensor hardware does not have a physical OFF switch. Alternatively you can always unplug the Kinect sensor from the console when it's not in use. When using the Kinect Settings to turn the sensor OFF, all processors on the device that are used to stream audio, video, or depth data to the console are in fact turned OFF."  http://www.xbox.com/en-CA/Kinect/PrivacyandOnlineSafety#DataCollection 2">http://www.xbox.com/en-CA/Kinect/PrivacyandOnlineSafety#DataCollec tion 2The level of misinformation is insane right now, I don't see how anyone can claim PS4 won, when those people don't have a working system and are basing their opinion on outdated/wrong information.


Why do I HAVE to have a kinect though? Why do I have to pay for hardware that I have zero interest in ever using?
2013-06-20 11:15:12 AM  
2 votes:

Carth: It comes with the console but it isn't built into it. Since it is required for the system to work presumably if the Kinect breaks (cat knocks it over or whatever) you'd need to replace it (buy a new one) before you could play games again.


Ah.

Well, then they don't have to shove the keyboard up there for the walk. The rest, though - get on that, Ballmer.

// so it's basically a $100 controller I'll never use, but MUST replace if it breaks?
2013-06-20 11:10:13 AM  
2 votes:

AmazinTim: Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I am looking to evaluate the features of each console before deciding if and which one I will purchase. I see Xbox One's ability to cloud-compute game elements as a tremendous advantage in terms of gaming experiences that the platform can deliver. It opens the door for seemingly unlimited processing power. Coupled with the interactive TV piece (whatever they're calling it), the ability to use voice to do just about anything, and the multi-tasking features, it seems like for how I use my console, these are clear advantages over my understanding of PS4's offerings.

Am I missing something in terms of console features and abilities?

For Kinect, I don't really care for it's video use for games, but from what I've read, privacy and enabling of Kinect sensor will be configurable. It will always listen I think? Isn't that good for when I want to use my console? They're not giving Kinect data to the NSA. These "big brother" boogeyman arguments about Kinect are kind of worrisome just in terms of how little people seem to understand about privacy and data.


PS4 has the same cloud computing power as the XBO. In fact since sony runs gaikai  they have more experience doing it. Unfortunately, because of latency cloud computing for games can only be used for so many things, also since developers have to plan around not having that computing power they make games assuming it isn't there.

Voice command in games will be pretty useless for anything with a mutiplayer component since unless you enjoy hearing 16 other people saying "xbox change guns" every three seconds. Voice control of your tv is slower than using a remote which is why it never caught on before now.
2013-06-20 10:45:32 AM  
2 votes:

AdamK: he's been saying stuff like that for at least a month now, he's a big defender of the xbone drm and thinks the industry is doomed without xbone's drm


I'll never buy a console with xbone level DRM, so I guess it's doomed either way.
2013-06-20 10:10:22 AM  
2 votes:
scottydoesntknow:

And Microsoft, get your dog back on a leash. He's the kind of tool that can sway opinions back in Sony's favor simply by speaking.

Too late.  I mean he tried shoving a knife in the backs of PC gamers... so we don't want him.   I don't think many of the older 360 gamers want him either.   I'm sure watching him is amusing to the Playstation folk but really, they like him where he is I'm sure.

Lets send him off to the Ouya people yeah?
2013-06-20 10:08:52 AM  
2 votes:

Nefarious: FarkGrudge: //Still waiting for the reversal that they'll allow the Kinect to be turned off while using the console before I consider buying one anyway

You mean this?  You can turn the Kinect sensor off unless you are playing a game that requires it.  I'm sure the sufficiently paranoid will say it could be on even when it's off.  Microsoft just decided they wanted to sell you one this generation.


If it's listening for "Xbox on", it's listening. Any bets on how long it takes to hack? I'll set the over-under at 5min for someone to get a feed from a "powered down" console.

// $10 to Child's Play on the under; any takers?
2013-06-20 10:05:09 AM  
2 votes:

Nefarious: FarkGrudge: //Still waiting for the reversal that they'll allow the Kinect to be turned off while using the console before I consider buying one anyway

You mean this?  You can turn the Kinect sensor off PAUSE the kinect senor unless you are playing a game that requires it.  I'm sure the sufficiently paranoid will say it could be on even when it's off.  Microsoft just decided they wanted to sell you one this generation.


FTLA: "If you don't want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect."

Sell me an xbox one for $399 without Kinect and we're in business.
2013-06-20 09:10:40 AM  
2 votes:
CliffyB is a shortsighted fool.  He's also the guy who pushed the "death of PC gaming" meme hard a few years back, and even claimed Epic was going to get out of the PC games business entirely because of it.  5 years later, PC gaming is strong as ever, and Epic still makes PC games.
2013-06-20 09:08:57 AM  
2 votes:

narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy. But the "we bought a disk lobby" won - so all that gets forgotten.

We're back to the status quo persisting for the forseeable future (there's no way that MS or Sony are going to change the model after the shiatstorm that just happened.

Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!


Far better than saying "fark it, sure, those features are TOTALLY worth giving up rights to ownership of my property and any kind of hope that my games will be available more than 6 years from now!"

Plus, if MS has half a brain left after the bleach chugging storm that was their development cycle for the Xbone, they'll leave the family share option in somehow.  From the way they were phrasing things, I'm betting the console will let you play with the disk without any DRM, but digital no-disk play may still have that checkin... that would be best of both worlds, and would leave the option for the family share open.

I'm wagering they'll figure out a way to leave the family share option open, since it's really the only bonus they have at all over the PS4 at the moment, what with weaker hardware, higher pricing, privacy concerns (especially with Google's lawsuit, I'm extra-worried about PRISM and NSA stuff now).  They're fighting a serious uphill battle from the get-go, and they went and shot themselves in the foot at the start to boot, they can't afford to scrap any advantage they can muster now.
2013-06-20 09:03:55 AM  
2 votes:

khhsdude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_f8YBy39M


A 30min video from someone who's tune has changed remarkably since his fortunes increased and he moved to America.  I remember the earlier revision of that (it was a mailbox) where he quite clearly stated the problem was how Game/GameStop were pushing used games in favour of new; even when the customer WANTED new and not the pure existence of a second hand market.

It's also interesting that John has put out videos which basically stated "If you don't like my channel fark off" (yes he literally used the uncensored version) and then seems to be utterly mystified when people take his advice and do leave him to his own devices.

A law degree he might have... but he isn't too bright sometimes.  That video is one of those times.
2013-06-20 09:03:21 AM  
2 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: There was ALWAYS going to be more tacked on DLC.

That was never going to change.

For example, this guy is acting like Activision was just going to give you the newest CoD with all the maps at once for $60. Horse pucky.


Tell me why it costs more to upgrade my BF3 account to the Premium edition than it does to outright buy a new BF3 Premium edition and start a new account.
2013-06-20 08:48:48 AM  
2 votes:
There was ALWAYS going to be more tacked on DLC.

That was never going to change.

For example, this guy is acting like Activision was just going to give you the newest CoD with all the maps at once for $60. Horse pucky.
2013-06-20 08:33:32 AM  
2 votes:

Cythraul: HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.

What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales?


They're not really doing that, not directly anyway. "Getting a cut" wasn't the best way to describe it.

They can't reach in to Gamestop's pockets, but they can sell incomplete games then sell access to get all the rest, to every single person that ends up with that disc.
2013-06-20 08:20:44 AM  
2 votes:

jonny_q: Here's my translation of the tweet. Correct me if I'm wrong:



Nearly correct.  Needs more random splurging about how awesome he is, preferably with a Gears of War refference.  You should season with format flip-flop as well (which ever two formats take your fancy... say the 2600 and the Coleco) if you really want to master your Clifford to English.

/Seriously he calls himself 'CliffyB'... he's OLDER THAN I AM.
//I at least have a proper name: Vaneshi.
2013-06-20 08:15:44 AM  
2 votes:
Soon you will essentially be buying a blank disk for $60 then have to immediately pay for a DLC to play the game
2013-06-20 08:13:12 AM  
2 votes:
Here's my translation of the tweet. Correct me if I'm wrong:

"Y'all biatches done gone and make us remove alllll that DRM that publishers wanted. And you know... you just KNOW... what with all the DRM gone, the publishers are gonna just slap on some multiplayer and unnecessary DLC so they can squeeze money out of you damn used-game buyers"

So he's basically saying that it'll be just like this generation, except that he predicts publishers will do worse things.

The very few AAA games I played and absolutely loved this generation had DLC and multiplayer that I never touched once, but I never felt the game was incomplete. Why should I assume that it'll be worse? That just sounds like butthurt to me.
2013-06-20 08:09:33 AM  
2 votes:
Is CliffyB even employed?
2013-06-20 07:53:30 AM  
2 votes:
This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.
2013-06-20 07:49:45 AM  
2 votes:

RedPhoenix122: I hope that's fake.


he's been saying stuff like that for at least a month now, he's a big defender of the xbone drm and thinks the industry is doomed without xbone's drm
2013-06-20 07:19:36 AM  
2 votes:
In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.
2013-06-20 03:40:10 PM  
1 votes:
cliffyb has turned into a real whiny shiathead the last few years
2013-06-20 02:31:59 PM  
1 votes:
I understand game developers/programmers don't have economics degrees or anything, but they seem to fail to grasp even the obvious basic of capitalism. If you purposefully cripple your games to extort more money from your base, your base will eventually look elsewhere once a line is crossed. I guess you can play around with figuring out where that line is, but we are quickly approaching it.
2013-06-20 02:26:03 PM  
1 votes:

Cytokine Storm: I HOPE YOU ALL ARE HAPPY.

You've left this poor Xbox One employee a shamble of his former self.   Read for yourself

Here's an excerpt:

First is family sharing, this feature is near and dear to me and I truly felt it would have helped the industry grow and make both gamers and developers happy. The premise is simple and elegant, when you buy your games for Xbox One, you can set any of them to be part of your shared library.
[...]
When your family member accesses any of your games, they're placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game.

/this is an unverified blog post
//could be fake


Wow, this guy doesn't realize his own hypocrisy.  He goes into a tirade about how used games are killing the industry, and then explains how you being able to share games with 10 family members is the best thing since sliced bread.  Because that wouldn't have reduced game sales, no...not at all.  I'm sure every publisher was on board for Microsoft allowing 10 folks to share one game and not have to buy 10 copies.  But buy one used copy of anything and the world is coming to an end.

Clown shoes, Microsoft.  Clown shoes.
2013-06-20 02:23:15 PM  
1 votes:

Vaneshi: Cythraul:  What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales?

Money and frankly we're at the point where something has got to give IMHO.  When a game such as Tomb Raider can sell 6 million units. top the charts for it's released platforms and still be considered a financial flop by its publisher... there is a massive problem in the industry when it comes to both budgets AND inflating sales predictions to unreasonable levels (Tomb Raider was never going to sell the expected 12 - 20 million units it just wasn't, FFS it shifting 6 million is quite remarkable).

Of course the biggest problem these companies have is that they're fast running out of people to blame for these 'screw ups'.  In the 90's it was us PC gamers who bore the brunt of their ire; we were dirty evil thieves who needed constant watching.   Except now we ARE watched constantly in an environment that is DRM heavy and generally precludes 'casual piracy' (Steam, Origin, et al) and it's this 'casual piracy' which was apparently the big problem.   So it's not us.  It must be you console people because obviously it couldn't be the publishers fault due to living in a fantasy land where every 360 owner will buy 2+ copies of your game.

Now despite second hand games being around since the days of the 2600 this has become the industries bogeyman as piracy has been wiped out *snicker*, it's second hand games which are killing off publishers and forcing them to do all of this.   They'll biatch and moan, moan and biatch, stamp their little feet and point fingers until they get exactly what they want.   Which, when you look at the XBone is doing just that.

Once used games have been killed (or heavily curtailed in the publishers mind) then a new bogeyman will dutifully be summoned to take its place as the reason video games aren't making enough money.

And I haven't even gone in to the bullshiat of Game & GameStop being 'hated' whilst publishers throw them so many farking exclusive bits of tat.

/ Every one who brought a copy of Tomb Raider should send SquareEnix a letter of apology.
// And the £30 they failed to give the company for their second copy.
// Only slightly joking.


6 million units is 400 million in revenue. Big block busters don't even usually break into a 300 million budget (Avatar was was like 237 million and had actors, sets, and cgi).

I'm pretty sure video game publishers have discovered Hollywood accounting.
2013-06-20 02:04:02 PM  
1 votes:

RoxtarRyan: Lexx: Seriously people, buy an Ouya

You mean that cube thing with 1GB of memory and a tegra 3 CPU? Yeah, that thing can't even compete with my farking tablet. It's a joke. Angry Birds and Cut the Rope are games you play sitting on the shiatter, not sitting on a couch.


It's $100.  And I *hate* tablets.  And if I wanted graphical fidelity, I'd buy a highend PC.  Graphical fidelity has amazingly little to do with game play.

Ouya is the answer for a viable, small price, indie gaming platform.
2013-06-20 01:51:21 PM  
1 votes:

CrowdSceneExtra: AdamK: RedPhoenix122: TheOriginalEd: Here's a thought bleszinski. how about you NOT treat your consumers like criminals?

Probably getting business advice from the MPAA.

the video game industry for awhile really wanted to ape everything the movie industry did/is doing

AAA game development by its very nature is doomed tho, and was never sustainable like the movie model is

cliffyb is in la-la-land over used games thinking "if only video games were like movies, then there'd be secondary or third waves of income instead of needing to recoup costs all at once in the first month!" well that's the issue - those second or third waves of sales only come at deep discounts, and furthermore said deep discounts are coming not just later but very quickly too - in the end the value of AAA games is dropping like a rock among consumers and no amount of banning used games will change that

be happy there's growth in gaming even if it's in cheaper games

I see the lack of controls over first-wave sales as a problem with the video game industry as well, but I think controls on the used market will help to alleviate the issue.

Movies see most of their profits during their theatre runs.  When hype is high, people will spend money to experience the movie in a format that's not tradeable (they can try to record and trade the experience, but the FBI doesn't look too kindly on cam rips).  Every theatre customer equals income for the studios.  DVD sales are just icing on the cake months after the hype has died down (I just did a little research and The Hobbit earned $300 mil in box office revenue but only an estimated $30 mil in DVD sales).

With games under the current model however, the only guaranteed income that a publisher can bank on is pre-orders and midnight releases.  If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income ...


well there's the problem, tacked on features and dlc hasn't significantly altered people's desire to keep games or not, but that wasn't the point of DLC/multiplayer in the first place,  the point of dlc/multiplayer is additional revenue streams from those willing to keep the game, the idea they could use this as an all-in-one tactic is simply laziness

at the end of the day people's desire to keep a game is as archaic as their desire to buy a game in the first place, it isn't something you can rely on like a commodity or subscription

as for used games, at the end of the day they provide liquidity and keep money moving, for a huge portion of the population the ability to get rid of a game is the only way they're willing to buy it in the first place - in addition to being a "free" source of money that can be exchanged for something new

i think at the end of the day the desire to emulate and compete with the market leading AAA games has led to most of the problems currently plaguing the AAA model, mid-tiers went bankrupt and those who stuck around put all their eggs in one basket, but oh noes revenue can't support it! well to be honest it all sounds like a bad investment scheme on wall street, if the industry's bleeding profusely i don't think a bandaid will fix it
2013-06-20 12:52:24 PM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.


Yes, but now it puts the whole thing on shakier ground, legally.  With the Xbone's DRM you could argue that it was a condition of using the console, and MS is allowed to impose such conditions.  However, all of the sudden a bunch of game studios start "independently" pushing these DRM "solutions", conveniently at the same time, all that seem to coincidentally be aimed at wiping out an entire sub-industry that they have frequently argued "steals their profits"... well the words "antitrust" and "anti-competitive" aren't too hard to bring to mind.
2013-06-20 12:33:25 PM  
1 votes:

Lexx: Seriously people, buy an Ouya


You mean that cube thing with 1GB of memory and a tegra 3 CPU? Yeah, that thing can't even compete with my farking tablet. It's a joke. Angry Birds and Cut the Rope are games you play sitting on the shiatter, not sitting on a couch.
2013-06-20 12:21:25 PM  
1 votes:

CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.


If a company has published a game that consumers are returning at a loss within such a short amount of time, and are returning in such quantities that it's seriously cutting into their profits, the problem is with the game itself.
2013-06-20 12:20:41 PM  
1 votes:

CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.


If somebody's returning a game to Gamestop within 48 hours of obtaining it, it probably means the game was shyte and the publisher barely even deserves the revenue they got from the first time it was purchased, much less any additional revenue for the next sucker who falls for the hype.
2013-06-20 12:16:13 PM  
1 votes:
1. CliffyB has been, and always shall be one of the Rob Liefelds of video games.

2. I'm still keeping my PS4 preorder because the Xbox One is $100 more and that gets me features I will NEVER use. I don't subscribe to cable or watch broadcast TV, so the pass-through is useless. I don't like or care about motion control, so the Kinect is useless. The one non-game feature I might like-- Netflix-- requires a $60 annual subscription on top of my Netflix subscription, so I'll stick with my HTPC or Roku for that.

3. I'm also getting an Ouya, and will enjoy new exclusive games in the months leading up to December. I'll also have my pile of retro games via emus, and spend some tinkering with XBMC on Ouya. And yes, the Ouya IS different from an Android stick or Android mini-PC. Many games will be exclusives, they'll all be optimized for the Ouya (controller-based, and taking advantage of a CPU/GPU that draws AC power, has a cooling fan, and doesn't need to dedicate anything to phone/tablet background processes.)

4. The only way I'd consider the Xbox One is if they sold a version without Kinect being required. Period. I'm not interested in it. I don't want it. MS can therefore keep it.
2013-06-20 12:00:13 PM  
1 votes:

Ajanu: So you need something thicker than paper to hide your crack smoking or fornicating from the camera.


I think you misunderstand - those are the things we want the camera to see. It's those times when we set up the living room to reenact To Wong Foo... with the dog & cat that we may want to keep private.

But none of that explains why devs want to spend that much more time (and money) to develop Kinect stuff for their games when there are other formats for which that will be useless. PC, for example - or PS4. Any dev who wants to make a multiplatform game (which I guess is going to be a smaller and smaller number now?) is stuck with that.

So what I think will happen is what (I think) I've been seeing thus far - a raft of Kinect-only games (that is, games that are purpose-built - they have a niche market for Just Dance and Fitness whatevers, but how is Wii doing on that, hmm?), some features that are nods to the Kinect (like last year's Madden from what I gather) without affecting gameplay otherwise, and most games which will ignore the capability entirely.

For what had the potential to be a game-changer (no pun intended, but I kind of like how that works), MS has totally screwed up its release by making Kinect more about revenue-generation schemes in this release than about use in gameplay.

// and if we keep pushing, I foresee MS making Kinect tethering the hill they die on
// for some stupid reason (probably TV/movie rental charges)
2013-06-20 11:58:59 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: scottydoesntknow: Jim from Saint Paul: If you mean the 1GB, downloadable adjusted ending then that was not my experience. Again, I didn't touch MP once before I beat the game. I beat the game months before that file was available to download. I still had the "best ending".

Then I'm not really sure how you did it. I did everything possible and still had to play a few matches of MP to get my readiness up.

I'm just that awesome apparently!


Did you play the ios/android game? That got you enough points for the best ending without multiplayer before the patch.
2013-06-20 11:57:16 AM  
1 votes:

quiotu: Carth: AmazinTim: Carth: PS4 has the same cloud computing power as the XBO. In fact since sony runs gaikai  they have more experience doing it. Unfortunately, because of latency cloud computing for games can only be used for so many things, also since developers have to plan around not having that computing power they make games assuming it isn't there.

Ah, I thought Gaiku was for OnLive-style full game streaming so you could play back-catalog games or sample games before you buy them (another cool feature). I didn't know it was being leveraged the same way MS is positioning how developers can "outsource" certain game elements to the cloud. Did they mention that in their presser?

Sony mentioned they will have cloud computing online by 2014, post conference they said "early 2014". Both companies will do streaming for Backwards compatibility and have the option for developers to do things like lighting in game if they want. Since the PS4 is significantly more powerful than the XBO and was designed around gaming not as an entertainment console it seems to be the better choice if you're looking for a dedicated gaming system where as XBO would be a more all in one box.

Truthfully, I haven't seen anything from Microsoft talking about backwards compatibility through streaming.  Gaikai was announced a while ago, but I don't remember Microsoft ever announcing anything for backwards compatibility, only that the Xbox One wouldn't have it.  I'd love a citation if they've mentioned it somewhere.

It'd even the playing field a bit if OnLive was being used on the Xbox One, but I never heard anything about it so far.


I don't think MS has said they are going to do streaming backwards compatibilty yet. People are speculating that Hyper-V would be used. Sony has come out and said they'll do streaming backwards compatibility for certain titles in 2014.
2013-06-20 11:53:31 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: scottydoesntknow: Jim from Saint Paul: They were suggesting that you HAD to do the MP stuff to get your galactic readiness and such to a point where you could get the "best" ending.

They are incorrect as I got the best ending without touching MP once. It's an *option* not a requirement. Do all the little side missions and you will be just fine.

To be fair, the ability to beat the game on the best ending without touching MP only came out through a patch. Originally the Galactic readiness rating for the best ending was set at (IIRC) 4000. Yet the most war assets that were available were 7500, and not playing MP cut that in half to 3750. A patch they issued with the Extended Cut lowered it to around 3100 so it could be done without touching MP.

If you mean the 1GB, downloadable adjusted ending then that was not my experience. Again, I didn't touch MP once before I beat the game. I beat the game months before that file was available to download. I still had the "best ending".


Your statement cannot be accurate, unless you altered your save file.

The "best ending" includes a teaser implying that Shepard survived the "Destruction" ending. The teaser is played only if a certain Effective Military Strength (4000) was attained. Attaining that Effective Military Strength was impossible -- as confirmed by examination of game data -- without using multiplayer to either increase readiness above 50% or to increase the base military strength through importation of level 20 multiplayer characters. Without multiplayer, the required strength was attainable only by using a save editor to alter asset values.

Bioware had claimed that absolutely all single player content would be available without requiring multiplayer bonuses. Gamers who examined game data proved their claim to be a lie. As such, the "Extended Cut" release reduced the required Effective Military Strength to a value attainable even with only 50% readiness.
2013-06-20 11:47:54 AM  
1 votes:

King Something: Tyrone Slothrop: Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.

From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.

I guess this means that the market for vertical-scrolling magical girl-themed hat simulators will not be tapped by the Xbone.


State of Decay, the Fastest Selling game on XBLA, is from a company with 0 games at retail.

(As an aside, XB0x 360 owners, this IS the zombie apocalypse game you want. Coming 'Soon' to Steam)
2013-06-20 11:16:33 AM  
1 votes:

Rev.K: Dawnguard was decent.

Dragonborn was awesome.

DLC can be done well.


Dawnguard was pretty weak for a DLC. They added a couple cool locations and features, but overall it seemed more of the same.

Dragonborn was badass and exactly what a DLC should be. A new world open for exploration.

My favorite will always be Old World Blues for New Vegas. That felt like a standalone game in itself (humor, baddies, everything) and the perks/items were awesome. Add in the fact that you got a fully functional house you could teleport to at any time, and it was my favorite.

Red Dead's Undead Nightmare also deserves mention, although you could consider it more of an expansion than just DLC.
2013-06-20 11:14:14 AM  
1 votes:

Carth: PS4 has the same cloud computing power as the XBO. In fact since sony runs gaikai  they have more experience doing it. Unfortunately, because of latency cloud computing for games can only be used for so many things, also since developers have to plan around not having that computing power they make games assuming it isn't there.


Ah, I thought Gaiku was for OnLive-style full game streaming so you could play back-catalog games or sample games before you buy them (another cool feature). I didn't know it was being leveraged the same way MS is positioning how developers can "outsource" certain game elements to the cloud. Did they mention that in their presser?
2013-06-20 11:11:16 AM  
1 votes:

Dr Dreidel: quiotu: Nope, last I heard it had to be plugged in to play games. Not sure about TV or movies. But it's just one more thing in the way of your game experience. At least a constant internet connection is off the table, but what if your Kinect breaks? Gotta spend another $80-100 on a peripheral you don't ever use just to play the games? No thanks...

Wait - they're making Kinect mandatory, but it's not built into the console? It's still a separate piece of equipment to buy?

GFY, Microsoft. No, wait - shove this "under-$200" Surface (with its $130 keyboard) up your ass, push it up there real good with a broom-handle made of recycled Windows ME CDs, mount the whole setup on a piston attached to your shoes, and walk back to Redmond. So you can keep farking yourself throughout the whole journey.

// I'm in DC, so that's a long walk


It comes with the console but it isn't built into it. Since it is required for the system to work presumably if the Kinect breaks (cat knocks it over or whatever) you'd need to replace it (buy a new one) before you could play games again.
2013-06-20 11:08:02 AM  
1 votes:

quiotu: Nope, last I heard it had to be plugged in to play games. Not sure about TV or movies. But it's just one more thing in the way of your game experience. At least a constant internet connection is off the table, but what if your Kinect breaks? Gotta spend another $80-100 on a peripheral you don't ever use just to play the games? No thanks...


Wait - they're making Kinect mandatory, but it's not built into the console? It's still a separate piece of equipment to buy?

GFY, Microsoft. No, wait - shove this "under-$200" Surface (with its $130 keyboard) up your ass, push it up there real good with a broom-handle made of recycled Windows ME CDs, mount the whole setup on a piston attached to your shoes, and walk back to Redmond. So you can keep farking yourself throughout the whole journey.

// I'm in DC, so that's a long walk
2013-06-20 10:56:25 AM  
1 votes:

Egoy3k: Well this should be a surprise to no one. Thanks a lot internet nerds you farked it up for the rest of us.


lol

Corporate greed and a target market that has absolutely no impulse control farked it up for the rest of us.  If MS and the game publishers got what they wanted you'd still see an initial price point of $60+, charging fees for used games, sports and other games moving to a yearly subscription model, purposely nerfing games to promote DLC, the whole shebang.  For once people actually stand up and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and now they're the bad guys?
2013-06-20 10:53:55 AM  
1 votes:

Lexx: AdamK: Tyrone Slothrop: Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.

From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.

yeah, you can't self-publish on any microsoft console despite the industry going in that direction

That's why I have high hopes in the Ouya, and Steambox.


Well, grab some beers or whatever you like because I got a feeling your hopes are going to be let down with both of those.
2013-06-20 10:53:20 AM  
1 votes:

Larry Mahnken: No, you'll buy the game new and there will be a code for the DLC.  $60 buys you the whole game.
If you buy the game used, you'll have to pay to get the DLC.


Really unlikely.   That was the hook for Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2 (you got Shale and Zaeed respectively free for buying new) and it was a pretty good idea.   Between those two games and Mass Effect 3 the policy changed, you'll remember that the lore bomb dropping DLC character in that game was not included in the "base package" version of the game so you can't really consider it a hook to buy new vs used.

So what you are suggesting is the publishers will revert to the earlier policy.
2013-06-20 10:49:20 AM  
1 votes:
I'm going to go out on a limb here, but the developers could have their DRM, in a way.


Make games with awesome multiplayer and high replay value.    Then the players will connect to the internet nearly every day and won't trade, sell or loan the games!

I know, I know, that's crazy talk.  It's WAY better to shovel out crap you can finish in 4 hours, promise some DLC that usually just makes the game worse, and complain when people pick it up out of the bargain bin when they finally get around to deciding to give it a try.
2013-06-20 10:44:05 AM  
1 votes:
So, someone agrees with Cliffy B that tacked on multiplayer and DLC are gonna be more common, and this is somehow a big deal? I'd think EA's policy of "sell nothing without a multiplayer component" and the already rampant micro-transations would show that A: he's right, in a way and B: It wouldn't have really mattered what MS did with the One, seeing as there is already a basis for it in the market and it shows no signs of diminishing. You can't honestly say that the One would come out, things would go digital, and suddenly all the publishers say "Our bad for all that old stuff, never again." They have a system that makes money, they're gonna keep it till the well runs dry.
2013-06-20 10:24:01 AM  
1 votes:
Seems to me that Cliffyb is addopting the Tarkin Doctrine: Fear of this ultimate weapon will keep the gamers in line.

What he's failing to remember is that the gamer alliance destroyed the DRM/dlc star a few days after alderaan was destroyed.

The first developer to come out with a triple A title with a number after 2 in the name that sees sales tank will change their tune QUICK. Thats their thermal exhaust port and it can be HIT.
2013-06-20 10:22:32 AM  
1 votes:

Tyrone Slothrop: Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.

From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.


I guess this means that the market for vertical-scrolling magical girl-themed hat simulators will not be tapped by the Xbone.
2013-06-20 10:19:27 AM  
1 votes:

Vaneshi: scottydoesntknow:

And Microsoft, get your dog back on a leash. He's the kind of tool that can sway opinions back in Sony's favor simply by speaking.

Too late.  I mean he tried shoving a knife in the backs of PC gamers... so we don't want him.   I don't think many of the older 360 gamers want him either.   I'm sure watching him is amusing to the Playstation folk but really, they like him where he is I'm sure.

Lets send him off to the Ouya people yeah?


As much as I don't like the Ouya (just seems way too gimmicky), I wouldn't want to subject them to that. Maybe he could go work for Hasbro and figure out a way to implement additional content for board games. I'm thinking dog armor for the little dog piece in Monopoly.
2013-06-20 10:04:43 AM  
1 votes:

Lexx: I am 99% sure I'm going to be replacing my desktop with a "Steam box" if/when they come out.


Why wait?  Build a desktop or SFF PC with a decent GPU (or hell, buy one, like the Alienware X51), install Steam, configure it to load Big Picture on startup.  Boom, there's your Steam box.
2013-06-20 10:04:23 AM  
1 votes:
I also found it funny that he says it was Sony that made Microsoft change, not whiny gamers. Except the reason Sony was able to "make Microsoft change" was because those whiny gamers sided with Sony, making them the good guy.

If reactions had been equal for both sides, Microsoft wouldn't have changed. If reactions had been largely positive for Microsoft over Sony (I don't know why, maybe aliens mind-controlled us to do it), Sony might've actually changed to imitate Microsoft's plans. The only reason they changed was the instant backlash and the thousands of people who said they were ditching Microsoft and moving to PS4 this generation.

You're a frat-boy douchebag Cliffy B, don't ever change.

And Microsoft, get your dog back on a leash. He's the kind of tool that can sway opinions back in Sony's favor simply by speaking.
2013-06-20 10:02:21 AM  
1 votes:

FarkGrudge: //Still waiting for the reversal that they'll allow the Kinect to be turned off while using the console before I consider buying one anyway


You mean this?  You can turn the Kinect sensor off unless you are playing a game that requires it.  I'm sure the sufficiently paranoid will say it could be on even when it's off.  Microsoft just decided they wanted to sell you one this generation.
2013-06-20 10:01:19 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: digistil: HotWingConspiracy: Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sony said publishers will have the same DRM abilities as they have with the PS3.

Not sure, but they already have the freedom to chisel you. It's like with ME3, you cannot access the online portion unless you pay EA, and you can't "complete" (you can finish, but not get the good ending) unless you do the multiplayer stuff. So if you get a used copy, EA is getting that cash if you're interested in completing the game.


Joke's on you, there is no good ending to ME3
2013-06-20 09:55:53 AM  
1 votes:

AdamK: cliffyb is in la-la-land over used games thinking "if only video games were like movies, then there'd be secondary or third waves of income instead of needing to recoup costs all at once in the first month!" well that's the issue - those second or third waves of sales only come at deep discounts,


Budget titles.  These existed from way back in the 8bit days.  I could buy a £0.99 - £5 budget title.  Several of the big names in the industry like Rare (then known as Ultimate: Play the Game) made nothing but good, playable, budget titles that kids could afford with their pocket money.

This is as well as moving prior AAA releases in to cheaper packaging, removing the throw-in trinkets and reselling as a budget title.

The video game industry moved away from that behaviour at around the same time as those second and third wave sales largely vanished (or at least became heavily reduced compared to what they were percentage wise) from that market.
2013-06-20 09:44:58 AM  
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: TheOriginalEd: Here's a thought bleszinski. how about you NOT treat your consumers like criminals?

Probably getting business advice from the MPAA.


the video game industry for awhile really wanted to ape everything the movie industry did/is doing

AAA game development by its very nature is doomed tho, and was never sustainable like the movie model is

cliffyb is in la-la-land over used games thinking "if only video games were like movies, then there'd be secondary or third waves of income instead of needing to recoup costs all at once in the first month!" well that's the issue - those second or third waves of sales only come at deep discounts, and furthermore said deep discounts are coming not just later but very quickly too - in the end the value of AAA games is dropping like a rock among consumers and no amount of banning used games will change that

be happy there's growth in gaming even if it's in cheaper games
2013-06-20 09:32:54 AM  
1 votes:

Tyrone Slothrop: Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.

From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.


yeah, you can't self-publish on any microsoft console despite the industry going in that direction
2013-06-20 09:32:38 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: Carth: Jim from Saint Paul: The majority of gamers are of the dilluted thought proces that all games cost $60. Especially your CoD gamers. They would bristle at the idea of paying $80.00 for a game up front, yet will buy 4 map packs at $15 a piece while barely flinching.

Call of Duty Black Ops 2 hit $1 billion dollars in 15 days. Faster than Avatar or any other entertainment product in history. Video games are making more money today than ever and the industry as a whole is bigger. AAA game do cost more to make you're absolutely right. They are also earn more than ever before. If you can find any Atari or SNES game that made $1 billion i'd love to hear about it.

Not sure what you're retorting.

I was saying that the majority of gamers think they only pay $60 for a game when in reality they pay more.


Ah ok, I took what you were saying to mean  games today are under priced and the industry needs to charge more to be profitable.

Of course they charge whatever people are willing to pay and breaking the price into smaller allotments is an old trick to extract more money.
2013-06-20 09:28:40 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: Phil Moskowitz: Honestly, if you buy anything from Microsoft with regards to the XBOX franchise, you're an idiot.

Well. I'm sold. Thanks.


Hey, if you want your credit card information locked into a company that engineers their shiat to keep it for life, by all means. Sounds like you're just the type of customer they're looking for.
2013-06-20 09:28:04 AM  
1 votes:

Cythraul: Those sound like retail and distribution problems. I doubt they could take measures to compensate for those theoretical downfalls that would end up punishing consumers directly.


They're only punishing consumers because video gamers in general have shown they'll take the beating and then queue up for the next big release from that self same publisher.    The point is that they'll blame anyone and anything rather than own up that this is their problem and one that is singularly of their creation by setting utterly unrealistic expectations.

So, purely off the top of your head what fits the criteria then.  Once 2nd hand games is 'dead' (as piracy already is).

Jim from Saint Paul: So anyway.the companies will try to make their money. Because games imply don;t cost $60 per to make anymore.


So companies need to be more realistic about their budgets, development teams and how well a game will sell and indeed the shelf life of the product.  I'm not paying £30+ for a game that'll have its servers shut down shortly after the sequel is released, or just randomly because it "didn't sell well enough".
2013-06-20 09:26:31 AM  
1 votes:

HeartBurnKid: narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy.

Ummm... no, it didn't, at least not with the freedom current consoles have with disc-based games.  Sharing was limited to one library that could be shared with up to 10 people, and if any one of those 10 is playing a game in that library, nobody else could play that game or any other game in that library.  And as for selling digital copies, XB1 never allowed for selling purely digital games, but it did restrict you to selling your disc-based games only to "authorized retailers".

narkor: Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

The problem there is that consoles are already on the "razorblade" model -- get the razor (console) cheap, pay farkloads for the cartridges (games).  And then pay farkloads more for the DLC (which there is no analogy for in the razor world, but hey).

narkor: But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!

People keep saying this, but here's a news flash for you:  Gamestop wasn't going to be the ones who suffer from all this.  I'm sure they were the first ones to get signed up as an "authorized retailer"; to be honest, they're probably the entire reason the "authorized retailer" program existed.  Hell, with the exclusivity XB1 would have granted them, by taking away your ability to sell your games to a mom-and-pop shop or simply list them on eBay, they would have had free reign to ream you even more on their buyback prices.  And honestly, even if they were going to suffer, you're giving up a lot to make them suffer.  You're happily cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Shaving cream? You don't need it shave but it sure makes the whole experience better... of course you'd need to be locked into a specific brand depending on what razor you use.
2013-06-20 09:22:00 AM  
1 votes:

Egoy3k: These are actual add-ons and were all worth the price.  If you get suckered into buying bad DLC well that's kind of shiatty but it's on you.  Don't complain online about DLC if you are stupid enough to buy shiatty products.  Do you go out and buy a shiatty CRT TV and then biatch online about how criminal it is that RCA sold you a piece of shiat TV?


I didn't say I bought the DLC, I was just observing the business model used by most AAA publishers on consoles today.  Truth of the matter is I am mostly a PC gamer and I get DLC  for free (i.e. mods).  When I do buy a game for my console, I invariably wait on the later "GotY" edition or the "platinum" hits edition that usually cost significantly less.
2013-06-20 09:18:42 AM  
1 votes:
Honestly, if you buy anything from Microsoft with regards to the XBOX franchise, you're an idiot.
2013-06-20 09:17:46 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: RedPhoenix122: Jim from Saint Paul: RedPhoenix122: Jim from Saint Paul: There was ALWAYS going to be more tacked on DLC.

That was never going to change.

For example, this guy is acting like Activision was just going to give you the newest CoD with all the maps at once for $60. Horse pucky.

Tell me why it costs more to upgrade my BF3 account to the Premium edition than it does to outright buy a new BF3 Premium edition and start a new account.

Because EA.

EA, Activision, big publishers can fark off.

AGreed.

Except I will be picking up Madden and the new CoD more then likely this year.

So not really I guess.


Meh, both franchises are pretty much crap anymore.  Also, one of my biatches about the XBone is that they will not allow indie developers to self-publish.
2013-06-20 09:16:25 AM  
1 votes:
Here's a thought bleszinski. how about you NOT treat your consumers like criminals?
2013-06-20 09:11:53 AM  
1 votes:

narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy. But the "we bought a disk lobby" won - so all that gets forgotten.

We're back to the status quo persisting for the forseeable future (there's no way that MS or Sony are going to change the model after the shiatstorm that just happened.

Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!


And you know what, even IF the "razorblade" model became more prevalent, that'd still be better than the original proposal--because at least you own "something" you can share with your friends or siblings.  More often than not, anyone who's sharing disks probably isn't interested in the "true ending" or the competitive multiplayer component.  In either model, the publisher is still going to try and extort you (and all used-gamers) the most they possibly can--if you think they weren't going to offer DLC or "expansions" under the original model, you're delusional.

Bottom-line:  first-sale doctrine should still apply, especially to "walled-garden" environments like a console--since the investment to the console is fairly steep to enough people (at least enough where you won't likely buy both consoles), it's probably the best way to keep costs competitive, as they are also competing against existing prior-art (ie, used-games).

/If they try to take DLC to the extreme again where you can basically only share a demo version of the game, then the outrage will flood in again (just like it did now)
//Still waiting for the reversal that they'll allow the Kinect to be turned off while using the console before I consider buying one anyway
2013-06-20 09:03:20 AM  
1 votes:

RyansPrivates: drjekel_mrhyde: What's the OMG all about? Don't all platforms do this already?

Yeah, I thought that was pretty much the AAA model at this point.  Take Arkham City (a pretty good game) as an example.  There were launch day DLC, that you could buy later.  There were other DLC that added characters, costumes, missions, etc.  All for the seemingly small price of $10 a piece. After a few times, you have a game that cost $100.  This is a good reason to always wait for the "Game of the Year" editions. (On a side note, how come every games seems to have a GoTY edition, even if it wasn't?)


It's the lure to get users who'd never pay full price to finally buy a copy.  Fallout 3 game of the year edition, etc.  Like hell I'm ever paying $100 for a goddamned video game.
2013-06-20 09:00:56 AM  
1 votes:

Vaneshi: Once used games have been killed (or heavily curtailed in the publishers mind) then a new bogeyman will dutifully be summoned to take its place as the reason video games aren't making enough money.


So let's say piracy is completely eliminated (yeah, right), and the sales of used games no longer exist.

What else could they possibly blame for the failure of their games to achieve their expected level of greed / profit margin?
2013-06-20 08:50:28 AM  
1 votes:

Jim from Saint Paul: There was ALWAYS going to be more tacked on DLC.

That was never going to change.

For example, this guy is acting like Activision was just going to give you the newest CoD with all the maps at once for $60. Horse pucky.


Fallout 3 complete edition, 2 years later, for $30.

Sorry guys, unless you make AMAZING multiplayer a thing, AND tell your buyers that the multiplayer's only good for a few years, you won't get $80 from me.
2013-06-20 08:47:31 AM  
1 votes:
I don't know why people want "XBone" to catch on so badly.
2013-06-20 08:43:58 AM  
1 votes:

AdamK: RedPhoenix122: I hope that's fake.

he's been saying stuff like that for at least a month now, he's a big defender of the xbone drm and thinks the industry is doomed without xbone's drm


Obviously, he's trying to push the XB1 as "Saviour of Videogames" because if the systems doesn't move units, Gears Of War 4 won't sell enough copies to make a profit.

Cliffy B is the Rob Liefeld of video games.
2013-06-20 08:43:45 AM  
1 votes:

antidisestablishmentarianism: Cythraul: Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold?

No, but the tax man does.


But, if I try to walk, he'll tax my feet.
2013-06-20 08:42:41 AM  
1 votes:

eiger: Cythraul: HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.

What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales? Does any other industry work that way? Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold? How about movies? Do movie studios get a cut of resales of used DVDs?

Most of those other industries don't because they can't (or at least can't figure out a way to do it). A professor I know, who authors textbook, told me that the book publishers are constantly trying to think of a way of getting back the money "stolen" from them by used book sales.


Well these people need to die in a farking fire.
2013-06-20 08:41:19 AM  
1 votes:

Cythraul: HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.

What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales? Does any other industry work that way? Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold? How about movies? Do movie studios get a cut of resales of used DVDs?


Most of those other industries don't because they can't (or at least can't figure out a way to do it). A professor I know, who authors textbook, told me that the book publishers are constantly trying to think of a way of getting back the money "stolen" from them by used book sales.
2013-06-20 08:33:24 AM  
1 votes:

Tyrone Slothrop: From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.


Pretty much.  Which does kinda limit what size of company were talking about due to how expensive the process of getting a disc in to a store can be.

What I can't find out, although it's probably buried in the various documentation, is if that's two retail releases currently for sale or just two retail releases over a defined period of time.   Do Microsoft count Steam as retail or only physical store locations?  It could, theoretically, be a way around it.
2013-06-20 08:25:08 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.


What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales? Does any other industry work that way? Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold? How about movies? Do movie studios get a cut of resales of used DVDs?
2013-06-20 08:22:56 AM  
1 votes:

Vaneshi: Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.

In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.


From what I've read, if you want to sell a downloadable game on the XBone, you have to have two games for sale at retail, which screws over indie devs.
2013-06-20 08:16:28 AM  
1 votes:

Mike_LowELL: In this link: CliffyB pretends the fifty-million-dollar console video game is the only video game being made anymore, and thinks we won't just find other games to play.


In the case of the Xboned he is actually correct.  Which I admit is  minor miracle we should make a note of (under 'a stopped clock' probably).  Microsoft have already said: No publisher = Not on XBox.  It's generally intimated that this means a big publisher like EA, Ubisoft and so on rather than some enterprising indie who is both developer and makes a one man band publishing company.

This doesn't mean I disagree with your sentiment about the mans line of thought though.  He's almost as bonkers as Carmack's "DirectX is awesome" splurge... whilst all of his peers are busy brushing up on OpenGL due to the portability of it.
2013-06-20 08:14:01 AM  
1 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-06-20 07:56:40 AM  
1 votes:
XBone?
Cross Bone?
4.bp.blogspot.com

I guess a new Gundam game is coming out.
2013-06-20 07:17:50 AM  
1 votes:
Headline...acronym overload...
2013-06-20 07:01:06 AM  
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: I hope that's fake.


probably not.  there's a push by companies to create new and more invasive forms of DRM.  never mind that it doesn't work, offends customers and only adds to the cost of games without increasing their value....
 
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