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(Twitter)   In response to MS retracting XBone DRM, creator of XBone exclusive titles joins MS in destroying the XBone by promising to turn all game components into DLC   (twitter.com) divider line 229
    More: Followup, DRM, classical elements  
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5769 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Jun 2013 at 7:45 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-20 12:52:25 PM
Why is Egoy3k always so angry?  And wrong?
 
2013-06-20 12:59:35 PM

Cythraul: HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.

What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales? Does any other industry work that way? Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold? How about movies? Do movie studios get a cut of resales of used DVDs?


Well part of what got removed is the ability to sell used games on xbone to other people without the huge discount like you get selling to gamestop..  Sounded good to me.
 
2013-06-20 01:00:13 PM

Dimensio: Jim from Saint Paul: Dude, I swear I beat the game before the extended cut as I went to watch Fark be angrey about it. I swear I didn't use MP. Maybe some other patch BEFORE the EC was released did it, as I didn;t have the game for about 2 weeks after the release. It just couldn;t have been the EC patch. I beat the frickin game and got gaspy breath Shepard.

Many individuals on the Bioware official forums issued the same claim. Those who had actually examined the game files requested screenshots of the war assets listing. Three types of responses occurred:

1) No response at all
2) A screenshot showing a galactic readiness above 50% (of screenshots given, this was the most common) despite the player claiming never to have touched multiplayer or the iPad tie-in game.
3) A screenshot showing a particular war asset with a score higher than was specified in the game files, indicating an altered game data file (a game "mod" had been released to adjust certain aspects of the game, which included an adjustment of war asset scores; all screenshots showing inflated asset values were consistent with the alterations of the mod).

A response not provided: an actual screenshot showing war asset scores consistent with established in-game scores (derived from game data files) with a total that added up to 4000.

Following each patch prior to the "Extended Cut" release, players tested and confirmed that the EMS requirement for the "breathe" teaser had not changed.


Now I could be mis remembering what I picked to beat the game the first time. It's absolutley possible.

Not likely though.

Long Service MedalComplete Mass Effect 3 twice, or once with a Mass Effect 2 import.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012  (so 2 months after it came out, not 2 weeks like I thought)Master and CommanderDeliver most of the Galaxy at War assets to the final conflict.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012DefenderAttain the highest level of readiness in each theater of war.25 Unlocked on 5/18/2012THis is before the EC came out. I didn;t touch MP and I got  breathy Shep.Just purousing Google shows this was a big deal (I didn;t know that it was). All I know is that whatever was broken was fixed before 5/18/12.
 
2013-06-20 01:01:47 PM

Carth: Cytokine Storm: I HOPE YOU ALL ARE HAPPY.

You've left this poor Xbox One employee a shamble of his former self.   Read for yourself

Here's an excerpt:

First is family sharing, this feature is near and dear to me and I truly felt it would have helped the industry grow and make both gamers and developers happy. The premise is simple and elegant, when you buy your games for Xbox One, you can set any of them to be part of your shared library.
[...]
When your family member accesses any of your games, they're placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game.

/this is an unverified blog post
//could be fake

What the hell is the point of having "Shared" games if they can only play it 15-60 minutes? I'd rather just give them the disc so they can play it as long as they want. If they like it they can buy me a new copy on amazon and keep the one i sent them.


SO these people are super sad that their DEMO feature is gone? Oh just STFU.
 
2013-06-20 01:09:29 PM

Vaneshi: Cythraul: What else could they possibly blame for the failure of their games to achieve their expected level of greed / profit margin?

This is just off the top of my head mind but...

If a game is launched with a retail focus then you've got:  Insufficient store locations, insufficient shelf space, stores failing to maximise use of marketing materials.

If a game is launched with a download focus then you got: insufficient broadband penetration.


Those aren't reasons, those are symptoms of the failure.

The worst part is, those are considered valid "reasons" in the business world.
 
2013-06-20 01:11:20 PM

Burr: Last day for FREE Torchlight on GOG.COM!!  Part of their DRM Free Summer Sale.


Yeah, I tried to pick it up and it kept coming up as $7.49 in my checkout cart.  I think something is broken there.
 
2013-06-20 01:13:51 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: narkor: The original Xbox proposal allowed you to share digital with your friends or even allowed you to sell your digital copy. But the "we bought a disk lobby" won - so all that gets forgotten.

We're back to the status quo persisting for the forseeable future (there's no way that MS or Sony are going to change the model after the shiatstorm that just happened.

Game selling simply moves to the "razorblade" model - get the Razor (game) cheap, pay farkloads for the razors (DLC).

But hey - you get to buy used from Gamestop!

At no point did MS provide a plausable detailed plan on how the 'selling your digital copy' would actually work. They said you could do it, yet didn;t say for how much, at what times, NOTHING. Personally I was wating for those details and for them to lighten up on the 24 hour DRM restriction before deciding which system.

Don;t get all pissy with the internet for MS's lack of any discernable details on how they were going to make used games work.


Thank you! I felt like I was taking crazy pills. I was wondering where these people that were saying that this is the future of video games were getting their info. From everything I read MS had never even clarified what it meant. So when all the whiners were crying "Look what we lost!!" they didn't even know exactly what it was that was taken away beyond vague, almost assuredly not as good as they assumed, press releases.
 
2013-06-20 01:14:26 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: Carth: Cytokine Storm: I HOPE YOU ALL ARE HAPPY.

You've left this poor Xbox One employee a shamble of his former self.   Read for yourself

Here's an excerpt:

First is family sharing, this feature is near and dear to me and I truly felt it would have helped the industry grow and make both gamers and developers happy. The premise is simple and elegant, when you buy your games for Xbox One, you can set any of them to be part of your shared library.
[...]
When your family member accesses any of your games, they're placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game.

/this is an unverified blog post
//could be fake

What the hell is the point of having "Shared" games if they can only play it 15-60 minutes? I'd rather just give them the disc so they can play it as long as they want. If they like it they can buy me a new copy on amazon and keep the one i sent them.

SO these people are super sad that their DEMO feature is gone? Oh just STFU.


If that's true, the 15-60 minute play time, that completely changes my mind on the family sharing part.  It should at least allow someone in your 'circle of 10' to play the game as long as they want if you're not playing it.  Maybe give them a 15 minute timer to finish up their progress and save or whatever if you log in and start playing it.
 
2013-06-20 01:15:27 PM

poot_rootbeer: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If somebody's returning a game to Gamestop within 48 hours of obtaining it, it probably means the game was shyte and the publisher barely even deserves the revenue they got from the first time it was purchased, much less any additional revenue for the next sucker who falls for the hype.


red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If a company has published a game that consumers are returning at a loss within such a short amount of time, and are returning in such quantities that it's seriously cutting into their profits, the problem is with the game itself.


Portal 2 single player only takes about 10 hours to beat for an average user.  Would you consider it garbage if somebody returns it after beating it?
 
2013-06-20 01:17:12 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: SO these people are super sad that their DEMO feature is gone? Oh just STFU.


I can see his point, though - if I had (and I have in the past) worked hard on a thing, from conception phase through to the nuts-and-bolts of it, I really believed in it, I felt we had addressed the concerns of our stakeholders, and watched as the PR guys totally botched it from soup to nuts, I'd be heartbroken and pissed off, too.

Of course, in my example, it was an internal IT rollout of a thing that would actually have saved everyone time and money (had they bothered to use it); XB1 is a pure revenue-generation scheme. Details, details.

// if D3 and S2 and SimCityXTREEM (or whatever) hadn't been so totally borked at release, would we have revolted against always-on as hard?
// probably, but without those examples, it'd have fallen on deaf ears
 
2013-06-20 01:20:27 PM

Jim from Saint Paul: Long Service MedalComplete Mass Effect 3 twice, or once with a Mass Effect 2 import.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012  (so 2 months after it came out, not 2 weeks like I thought)Master and CommanderDeliver most of the Galaxy at War assets to the final conflict.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012DefenderAttain the highest level of readiness in each theater of war.25 Unlocked on 5/18/2012THis is before the EC came out. I didn;t touch MP and I got  breathy Shep.Just purousing Google shows this was a big deal (I didn;t know that it was). All I know is that whatever was broken was fixed before 5/18/12.


The "Defender" achievement is awarded for attaining a Galactic Readiness of 100%. The only methods for accomplishing such a readiness are multiplayer or linking of the iOS game. If you did not play multiplayer, then you used the iOS game, a secondary application, to boost your readiness and thus your effective military score with it.
 
2013-06-20 01:20:40 PM

Egoy3k: RyansPrivates: drjekel_mrhyde: What's the OMG all about? Don't all platforms do this already?

Yeah, I thought that was pretty much the AAA model at this point.  Take Arkham City (a pretty good game) as an example.  There were launch day DLC, that you could buy later.  There were other DLC that added characters, costumes, missions, etc.  All for the seemingly small price of $10 a piece. After a few times, you have a game that cost $100.  This is a good reason to always wait for the "Game of the Year" editions. (On a side note, how come every games seems to have a GoTY edition, even if it wasn't?)

I have a really crazy idea. You could just enjoy the game without the DLC.  I have purchased the following DLC

Red Dead Redemption undead nightmare pack
Grand theft Auto IV Lost and the Damned and The Ballad of Gay Tony
Fallout 3 and fallout NV all DLC packs
Some of the DLC for skyrim but I plan to pick up the legendary pack for the PC eventually


These are actual add-ons and were all worth the price.  If you get suckered into buying bad DLC well that's kind of shiatty but it's on you.  Don't complain online about DLC if you are stupid enough to buy shiatty products.  Do you go out and buy a shiatty CRT TV and then biatch online about how criminal it is that RCA sold you a piece of shiat TV?


The first thing I look for in a DLC is a little disclaimer in the description that says "for single player mode/campaign only". If that's not there, I don't buy it. Multiplayer doesn't interest me much at all anymore, I grew out of my CoD phase. Great single player games, however, will never get old. And devs that offer up quality, immersive, and useful DLC will get my money every single time. I was outraged that all of the Tomb Raider DLC was multiplayer, even though the blurb on it's advert on my Xbox dashboard said something along the lines of "navigate and explore all new environments". Navigate what? Explore where? On the shiatty new multiplayer maps where nothing remotely rewarding awaits? I don't think so. If they'd released a real add-on to the single player game, I would have bought it instantly.
 
2013-06-20 01:27:01 PM

yukichigai: Burr: Last day for FREE Torchlight on GOG.COM!!  Part of their DRM Free Summer Sale.

Yeah, I tried to pick it up and it kept coming up as $7.49 in my checkout cart.  I think something is broken there.


Hah, it was free this morning....

The email I got about it states "Only until June 20, 19:59 GMT", so it still should be free.  I got it yesterday for free.
 
2013-06-20 01:29:35 PM

eiger: Cythraul: HotWingConspiracy: This was always what was going to be happening on the PS4 as well. Sony was free to say they weren't going to do it, but made no mention of what they would allow game developers to do.

They're going to find a way to get a cut of the cash on sales of their used titles. Rendering the game nearly useless or incomplete to a second-hand buyer unless they pony up ten bucks will be the easiest way.

What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales? Does any other industry work that way? Does say, FORD get a cut of every used Ford truck that's resold? How about movies? Do movie studios get a cut of resales of used DVDs?

Most of those other industries don't because they can't (or at least can't figure out a way to do it). A professor I know, who authors textbook, told me that the book publishers are constantly trying to think of a way of getting back the money "stolen" from them by used book sales.


Ah yes, greedy pigs complaining about they shouldn't have a hand in to begin with.
 
2013-06-20 01:30:58 PM

taxandspend: There's a reason why Nintendo games, especially Mario games, have a ridiculously high trade in rate at Gamestop.


God dammit now I have to go dig out my DS and my copy of New Super Mario Bros.

That or Mario 3.

Fark you.

Fark you so much.
 
2013-06-20 01:30:58 PM

Dimensio: Jim from Saint Paul: Long Service MedalComplete Mass Effect 3 twice, or once with a Mass Effect 2 import.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012  (so 2 months after it came out, not 2 weeks like I thought)Master and CommanderDeliver most of the Galaxy at War assets to the final conflict.50 Unlocked on 5/18/2012DefenderAttain the highest level of readiness in each theater of war.25 Unlocked on 5/18/2012THis is before the EC came out. I didn;t touch MP and I got  breathy Shep.Just purousing Google shows this was a big deal (I didn;t know that it was). All I know is that whatever was broken was fixed before 5/18/12.

The "Defender" achievement is awarded for attaining a Galactic Readiness of 100%. The only methods for accomplishing such a readiness are multiplayer or linking of the iOS game. If you did not play multiplayer, then you used the iOS game, a secondary application, to boost your readiness and thus your effective military score with it.


Haven't touched the game in 6 months, single player in longer. I will have to falt out agree with you at this point then seeing as how I don't remember.

My apologies.
 
2013-06-20 01:31:25 PM

Burr: yukichigai: Burr: Last day for FREE Torchlight on GOG.COM!!  Part of their DRM Free Summer Sale.

Yeah, I tried to pick it up and it kept coming up as $7.49 in my checkout cart.  I think something is broken there.

Hah, it was free this morning....

The email I got about it states "Only until June 20, 19:59 GMT", so it still should be free.  I got it yesterday for free.


Ahh, apparently there was a mix up:

"We're very sorry about the newsletter mix-up. I think it's needless to say that no misinformation was intended here, however it's impossible for us to extend the giveaway, unfortunately.
Anyone who still wishes to take advantage of this offer, please send us a Support ticket using the General form until 23:59 GMT, and we will send you a code for this game: 
http://www.gog.com/support/contact/other_questions_issues;
Ideally, please use "Torchlight giveaway" as the ticket's title - this way it will be easier for us to fish out these cases and get them sorted our quickly. We're pretty swamped right now, due to the huge promo and whatnot, but we will help you ASAP."
 
2013-06-20 01:32:36 PM

yukichigai: taxandspend: There's a reason why Nintendo games, especially Mario games, have a ridiculously high trade in rate at Gamestop.

God dammit now I have to go dig out my DS and my copy of New Super Mario Bros.

That or Mario 3.

Fark you.

Fark you so much.


5 bucks on the Wii.
 
2013-06-20 01:40:15 PM

Dr Dreidel: Jim from Saint Paul: SO these people are super sad that their DEMO feature is gone? Oh just STFU.

I can see his point, though - if I had (and I have in the past) worked hard on a thing, from conception phase through to the nuts-and-bolts of it, I really believed in it, I felt we had addressed the concerns of our stakeholders, and watched as the PR guys totally botched it from soup to nuts, I'd be heartbroken and pissed off, too.

Of course, in my example, it was an internal IT rollout of a thing that would actually have saved everyone time and money (had they bothered to use it); XB1 is a pure revenue-generation scheme. Details, details.

// if D3 and S2 and SimCityXTREEM (or whatever) hadn't been so totally borked at release, would we have revolted against always-on as hard?
// probably, but without those examples, it'd have fallen on deaf ears


Right. So I can appreciate the whole "hey i worked on this" angle.

Is there more then one feature? Of course not. That's the one he is lamenting about and at the end of the day it's in no way a feature that is new. It's a frickin DEMO program. And he just whined on the internet about it. Dude is fair game.
 
2013-06-20 01:51:21 PM

CrowdSceneExtra: AdamK: RedPhoenix122: TheOriginalEd: Here's a thought bleszinski. how about you NOT treat your consumers like criminals?

Probably getting business advice from the MPAA.

the video game industry for awhile really wanted to ape everything the movie industry did/is doing

AAA game development by its very nature is doomed tho, and was never sustainable like the movie model is

cliffyb is in la-la-land over used games thinking "if only video games were like movies, then there'd be secondary or third waves of income instead of needing to recoup costs all at once in the first month!" well that's the issue - those second or third waves of sales only come at deep discounts, and furthermore said deep discounts are coming not just later but very quickly too - in the end the value of AAA games is dropping like a rock among consumers and no amount of banning used games will change that

be happy there's growth in gaming even if it's in cheaper games

I see the lack of controls over first-wave sales as a problem with the video game industry as well, but I think controls on the used market will help to alleviate the issue.

Movies see most of their profits during their theatre runs.  When hype is high, people will spend money to experience the movie in a format that's not tradeable (they can try to record and trade the experience, but the FBI doesn't look too kindly on cam rips).  Every theatre customer equals income for the studios.  DVD sales are just icing on the cake months after the hype has died down (I just did a little research and The Hobbit earned $300 mil in box office revenue but only an estimated $30 mil in DVD sales).

With games under the current model however, the only guaranteed income that a publisher can bank on is pre-orders and midnight releases.  If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income ...


well there's the problem, tacked on features and dlc hasn't significantly altered people's desire to keep games or not, but that wasn't the point of DLC/multiplayer in the first place,  the point of dlc/multiplayer is additional revenue streams from those willing to keep the game, the idea they could use this as an all-in-one tactic is simply laziness

at the end of the day people's desire to keep a game is as archaic as their desire to buy a game in the first place, it isn't something you can rely on like a commodity or subscription

as for used games, at the end of the day they provide liquidity and keep money moving, for a huge portion of the population the ability to get rid of a game is the only way they're willing to buy it in the first place - in addition to being a "free" source of money that can be exchanged for something new

i think at the end of the day the desire to emulate and compete with the market leading AAA games has led to most of the problems currently plaguing the AAA model, mid-tiers went bankrupt and those who stuck around put all their eggs in one basket, but oh noes revenue can't support it! well to be honest it all sounds like a bad investment scheme on wall street, if the industry's bleeding profusely i don't think a bandaid will fix it
 
2013-06-20 01:55:12 PM
*edit: even if you force somebody to keep a game doesn't mean they're coming back for more, there's a lot of games i've bought digitally that i've never played more than once
 
2013-06-20 02:04:02 PM

RoxtarRyan: Lexx: Seriously people, buy an Ouya

You mean that cube thing with 1GB of memory and a tegra 3 CPU? Yeah, that thing can't even compete with my farking tablet. It's a joke. Angry Birds and Cut the Rope are games you play sitting on the shiatter, not sitting on a couch.


It's $100.  And I *hate* tablets.  And if I wanted graphical fidelity, I'd buy a highend PC.  Graphical fidelity has amazingly little to do with game play.

Ouya is the answer for a viable, small price, indie gaming platform.
 
2013-06-20 02:22:24 PM

Vaneshi: Cythraul:  What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales?

Money and frankly we're at the point where something has got to give IMHO.  When a game such as Tomb Raider can sell 6 million units. top the charts for it's released platforms and still be considered a financial flop by its publisher... there is a massive problem in the industry when it comes to both budgets AND inflating sales predictions to unreasonable levels (Tomb Raider was never going to sell the expected 12 - 20 million units it just wasn't, FFS it shifting 6 million is quite remarkable).

Of course the biggest problem these companies have is that they're fast running out of people to blame for these 'screw ups'.  In the 90's it was us PC gamers who bore the brunt of their ire; we were dirty evil thieves who needed constant watching.   Except now we ARE watched constantly in an environment that is DRM heavy and generally precludes 'casual piracy' (Steam, Origin, et al) and it's this 'casual piracy' which was apparently the big problem.   So it's not us.  It must be you console people because obviously it couldn't be the publishers fault due to living in a fantasy land where every 360 owner will buy 2+ copies of your game.

Now despite second hand games being around since the days of the 2600 this has become the industries bogeyman as piracy has been wiped out *snicker*, it's second hand games which are killing off publishers and forcing them to do all of this.   They'll biatch and moan, moan and biatch, stamp their little feet and point fingers until they get exactly what they want.   Which, when you look at the XBone is doing just that.

Once used games have been killed (or heavily curtailed in the publishers mind) then a new bogeyman will dutifully be summoned to take its place as the reason video games aren't making enough money.

And I haven't even gone in to the bullshiat of Game & GameStop being 'hated' whilst publishers throw them so many farking exclusive bits of tat.

/ Every one who brought a copy of Tomb Raider should send SquareEnix a letter of apology.
// And the £30 they failed to give the company for their second copy.
// Only slightly joking.


They should be apologizing to me. That was a farking awesome game that they completely shafted on extra content. That game needed extra chapters that were single player playable, not useless multiplayer maps. Rockstar did the same damn thing with Max Payne 3 - put out a world class product and then just left it out to dry.
 
2013-06-20 02:23:15 PM

Vaneshi: Cythraul:  What's the justification for a game company demanding profit off of used game sales?

Money and frankly we're at the point where something has got to give IMHO.  When a game such as Tomb Raider can sell 6 million units. top the charts for it's released platforms and still be considered a financial flop by its publisher... there is a massive problem in the industry when it comes to both budgets AND inflating sales predictions to unreasonable levels (Tomb Raider was never going to sell the expected 12 - 20 million units it just wasn't, FFS it shifting 6 million is quite remarkable).

Of course the biggest problem these companies have is that they're fast running out of people to blame for these 'screw ups'.  In the 90's it was us PC gamers who bore the brunt of their ire; we were dirty evil thieves who needed constant watching.   Except now we ARE watched constantly in an environment that is DRM heavy and generally precludes 'casual piracy' (Steam, Origin, et al) and it's this 'casual piracy' which was apparently the big problem.   So it's not us.  It must be you console people because obviously it couldn't be the publishers fault due to living in a fantasy land where every 360 owner will buy 2+ copies of your game.

Now despite second hand games being around since the days of the 2600 this has become the industries bogeyman as piracy has been wiped out *snicker*, it's second hand games which are killing off publishers and forcing them to do all of this.   They'll biatch and moan, moan and biatch, stamp their little feet and point fingers until they get exactly what they want.   Which, when you look at the XBone is doing just that.

Once used games have been killed (or heavily curtailed in the publishers mind) then a new bogeyman will dutifully be summoned to take its place as the reason video games aren't making enough money.

And I haven't even gone in to the bullshiat of Game & GameStop being 'hated' whilst publishers throw them so many farking exclusive bits of tat.

/ Every one who brought a copy of Tomb Raider should send SquareEnix a letter of apology.
// And the £30 they failed to give the company for their second copy.
// Only slightly joking.


6 million units is 400 million in revenue. Big block busters don't even usually break into a 300 million budget (Avatar was was like 237 million and had actors, sets, and cgi).

I'm pretty sure video game publishers have discovered Hollywood accounting.
 
2013-06-20 02:26:03 PM

Cytokine Storm: I HOPE YOU ALL ARE HAPPY.

You've left this poor Xbox One employee a shamble of his former self.   Read for yourself

Here's an excerpt:

First is family sharing, this feature is near and dear to me and I truly felt it would have helped the industry grow and make both gamers and developers happy. The premise is simple and elegant, when you buy your games for Xbox One, you can set any of them to be part of your shared library.
[...]
When your family member accesses any of your games, they're placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game.

/this is an unverified blog post
//could be fake


Wow, this guy doesn't realize his own hypocrisy.  He goes into a tirade about how used games are killing the industry, and then explains how you being able to share games with 10 family members is the best thing since sliced bread.  Because that wouldn't have reduced game sales, no...not at all.  I'm sure every publisher was on board for Microsoft allowing 10 folks to share one game and not have to buy 10 copies.  But buy one used copy of anything and the world is coming to an end.

Clown shoes, Microsoft.  Clown shoes.
 
2013-06-20 02:31:59 PM
I understand game developers/programmers don't have economics degrees or anything, but they seem to fail to grasp even the obvious basic of capitalism. If you purposefully cripple your games to extort more money from your base, your base will eventually look elsewhere once a line is crossed. I guess you can play around with figuring out where that line is, but we are quickly approaching it.
 
2013-06-20 02:35:00 PM

Lexx: RoxtarRyan: Lexx: Seriously people, buy an Ouya

You mean that cube thing with 1GB of memory and a tegra 3 CPU? Yeah, that thing can't even compete with my farking tablet. It's a joke. Angry Birds and Cut the Rope are games you play sitting on the shiatter, not sitting on a couch.

It's $100.  And I *hate* tablets.  And if I wanted graphical fidelity, I'd buy a highend PC.  Graphical fidelity has amazingly little to do with game play.

Ouya is the answer for a viable, small price, indie gaming platform.


That's right, because there are currently no vendors or platforms available for indie developers using a method that isn't already available in nearly every single household. ::rolls eyes::

This is a cheap moneygrab to take advantage of people think that shiatting games are capable of having the depth of story and playability of, hell, even NES or Genesis games. And for indie developers who really want to get in the market? There are already viable ways to get your name and product out without developing for a product that is going to flop. This is going to become the new N-GAGE, or the next Virtual Boy. The developer's time and money is better spent working on a platform that already is already widespread. Making games simply for the Ouya is a complete waste. The games likely won't be able to be ported to mobile devices (or at least, easily by the end consumer) due to the use of a physical controller, the graphics won't scale very well (if at all) going from even a midrange 32" HDTV to a 4" or 5" screen, so your consumer base will be limited to the few that purchase the device. And, despite what hopeful developers dream, even fewer people are going to pay $10 or $15 for a game that is designed for a mobile platform. It simply isn't a competitor to indie games sold on Steam for the same price, if not lower, that have the capability to be grand in story, playability, as well as graphics.
 
2013-06-20 02:52:12 PM

RoxtarRyan: Lexx: RoxtarRyan: Lexx: Seriously people, buy an Ouya

You mean that cube thing with 1GB of memory and a tegra 3 CPU? Yeah, that thing can't even compete with my farking tablet. It's a joke. Angry Birds and Cut the Rope are games you play sitting on the shiatter, not sitting on a couch.

It's $100.  And I *hate* tablets.  And if I wanted graphical fidelity, I'd buy a highend PC.  Graphical fidelity has amazingly little to do with game play.

Ouya is the answer for a viable, small price, indie gaming platform.

That's right, because there are currently no vendors or platforms available for indie developers using a method that isn't already available in nearly every single household. ::rolls eyes::

This is a cheap moneygrab to take advantage of people think that shiatting games are capable of having the depth of story and playability of, hell, even NES or Genesis games. And for indie developers who really want to get in the market? There are already viable ways to get your name and product out without developing for a product that is going to flop. This is going to become the new N-GAGE, or the next Virtual Boy. The developer's time and money is better spent working on a platform that already is already widespread. Making games simply for the Ouya is a complete waste. The games likely won't be able to be ported to mobile devices (or at least, easily by the end consumer) due to the use of a physical controller, the graphics won't scale very well (if at all) going from even a midrange 32" HDTV to a 4" or 5" screen, so your consumer base will be limited to the few that purchase the device. And, despite what hopeful developers dream, even fewer people are going to pay $10 or $15 for a game that is designed for a mobile platform. It simply isn't a competitor to indie games sold on Steam for the same price, if not lower, that have the capability to be grand in story, playability, as well as graphics.


Let's see where you're wrong here.

TV Screens: 4-5" phones have the same resolution range as 32" HDTVs
Graphics: 4-5" phones have graphics in the same range, roughly, as Tegra 3, though running at lower power.
Games: $10-$15 is out of the question, these games are going to be going for far less, with a few notable exceptions (Final Fantasy III)
Platform: These are essentially Android phone games, with a bit more horsepower, and a controller.  This means that any development experience an indie gets on Ouya is directly applicable to the cellphone market. There's no reason why students & indies shouldn't develop for this platform, as the barrier of entry to publish is far lower than even on Steam.

It *may* flop, indeed.  But I sincerely hope it doesn't - it'll be great for the industry.  There should be a goddamned lab of Ouyas in every single computer game programming school.
 
2013-06-20 03:27:26 PM
The nazis made the jews check-in at least once every twenty-four hours, look how that turned out.
 
2013-06-20 03:40:10 PM
cliffyb has turned into a real whiny shiathead the last few years
 
2013-06-20 04:19:38 PM
Intrepid00:  Hollywood accounting.

I would generally agree with that assumption however we can only go with what the publishers say when looking at the current situation.

I also agree that there is no farking way Tomb Raider cost as much as the first of the new gen of 3D movies did.
 
2013-06-20 04:28:10 PM

CrowdSceneExtra: poot_rootbeer: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If somebody's returning a game to Gamestop within 48 hours of obtaining it, it probably means the game was shyte and the publisher barely even deserves the revenue they got from the first time it was purchased, much less any additional revenue for the next sucker who falls for the hype.

red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If a company has published a game that consumers are returning at a loss within such a short amount of time, and are returning in such quantities that it's seriously cutting into their profits, the problem is with the game itself.

Portal 2 single player only takes about 10 hours to beat for an average user.  Would you consider it garbage if somebody returns it after beating it?


No I can't honestly say that Portal or Portal 2 are garbage, but if there is only 10 hours of content/play time in those games with no replay value the publisher has designed a game that's going to be re-sold. I shouldn't have used the term "crappy" to describe all games that get quickly re-sold. It is, however, the publisher's and designer's decision to make games that are short and have little or no replay value. Valve knew this when they bundled the original Portal in the Orange Box release, and not many people turned around and resold their Orange Box the next day.
 
2013-06-20 04:30:59 PM

red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: poot_rootbeer: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If somebody's returning a game to Gamestop within 48 hours of obtaining it, it probably means the game was shyte and the publisher barely even deserves the revenue they got from the first time it was purchased, much less any additional revenue for the next sucker who falls for the hype.

red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If a company has published a game that consumers are returning at a loss within such a short amount of time, and are returning in such quantities that it's seriously cutting into their profits, the problem is with the game itself.

Portal 2 single player only takes about 10 hours to beat for an average user.  Would you consider it garbage if somebody returns it after beating it?

No I can't honestly say that Portal or Portal 2 are garbage, but if there is only 10 hours of content/play time in those games with no replay value the publisher has designed a game that's going to be re-sold. I shouldn't have used the term "crappy" to describe all games that get quickly re-sold. It is, however, the publisher's and designer's decision to make games that are short and have little or no replay value. Valve knew this when they bundled the original Portal in the Orange Box release, and not many people turned around and resold their Orange Box the next day.


Also worth noting Portal/2 were under $20 new. I think $1-2 an hour for entertainment is about right for most video games. If you bought it new day one for $20 beat it in 10 hours and sold it for $10 your gaming is still only $1 an hour.
 
2013-06-20 04:48:59 PM

Lexx: TV Screens: 4-5" phones have the same resolution range as 32" HDTVs


That does not mean it scales well. When it comes to DPI, when scaling a game made for a 4" screen up to a 32", it is going to look completely awful. And I don't mean awful as in "wow, this is 1990-era", I mean as in "crap, my eyes can't take this" awful. Imagine taking text that is normally maybe 1/4" in height on the phone, then blow it up to a big screen TV, where it will be several inches in height. Now start doing that for every pixel, every sprite and graphic, just blowing it up so it fits the larger screen. It would be absolutely headache inducing, like trying to play a game meant for a 32" screen and playing it on an IMAX screen. Or, do the reverse, where you make a game that is meant to be fit on a 32" screen, where you can fit a LOT more info due to the large area, and squeeze it into a 4" screen. Text will be unreadable, characters or scenery will be become to tiny you can't tell one from another. Just do this: Imagine playing CoD, Portal 2, Borderlands or any other game that is meant to be played on a large screen, and play that same game, only scaled down to a screen the size of your palm. It would be completely unenjoyable, and don't forget the lost space due to using your thumbs for the UI (more on that later). Even games that are less graphically intensive than modern HD games... Let's say Minecraft, Terraria, Doom, Quake, etc. They are simply unplayable when scaled beyond what is comfortable for the eye to manage what is happening on the screen.

Lexx: Graphics: 4-5" phones have graphics in the same range, roughly, as Tegra 3, though running at lower power.


Tthis is more or less an extension of the previous comment.

Lexx: Games: $10-$15 is out of the question, these games are going to be going for far less, with a few notable exceptions (Final Fantasy III)


Well, what will that say about the quality of the games that are made exclusively for a new device with a questionable consumer base and support by developers? I'm hesitant to spend money on cellphone games as it is because they are, as noted, games meant for maybe killing 5-10 minutes at a time, and I can't think of a game that is currently out for mobile devices that costs as little as $5 that competes with games costing the same on Steam (and I've played a fair amount, with Amazon giving away an app a day for free).

Lexx: Platform: These are essentially Android phone games, with a bit more horsepower, and a controller. This means that any development experience an indie gets on Ouya is directly applicable to the cellphone market.


Well, again, damn near every single mobile platform game is a 5-10 time killer, mainly due to the limitations of the hardware. A game made for, and meant to be played, while sitting on the throne, or maybe sitting in a car or bus as a passenger. And the controller aspect of the Ouya is what really makes the ability to port games seamlessly damn near fruitless... Unless people are going to start carrying around controllers in their pockets or purses and learning how to sync up the controllers to their cell phones (even that will be a problem, since a lot of wireless peripherals are not supported on all Android devices, for example, bluetooth-connected watches, wireless speakers, car stereo units, etc, leading to a lot of headaches and additional problems), this is a poor argument that relies on the user doing too much when they simply want to play a game. If the developers decide to just port it using on-screen controls, it will be extremely disappointing to people when they realize that the same game isn't as playable using a screen where your thumbs are blocking a lot of space. That is a bit like me remoting into my personal PC with my tablet using a RDC program, starting up a game, and trying to play it using the RDC on-screen controls; While yes, it can technically run, the interface will be horrible since I no longer have a separate peripheral to control anything. I've seen RDC programs touting that they enable the users to play WoW from their cell phone or tablets, and while technically true, playing damn near any game is goddamn horrible. And besides, who would want to prop up their cell phone to play a game with a controller to begin with? It just seems like doing something for the sake of doing it, without rhyme or reason.

Actually, that last sentence seems to be the mantra of the Ouya: doing something for the sake of doing it.

Lexx: as the barrier of entry to publish is far lower than even on Steam.


Aaaand the final point: Barrier of entry. While yes, getting something on Steam isn't a simple as it is on Amazon or the Google marketplace, that is a damn good thing. There are too many games for mobile devices that are too damn intrusive, often laden with malware, requesting more permissions that necessary to run it, or are simply goddamn awful clones. Don't believe me? Go do a search on Amazon for "minecraft" and see the number of awful shiatty clones that are purposely misleading in both app picture, name and description. Having some kind of barrier is good, and in my opinion, necessary.

Don't misunderstand, I'm a fan of competition and whatnot, but a console based on the android platform sticking to low-power CPU and GPUs is simply not competitive against consoles backed by huge corporations, or PCs where there are numerous vendors and companies who will distribute the work of indie developers, reaching a much larger and already established audience.  If a console is a non-competitor, why should average consumers purchase it? If consumers are doubting the console as much as this, why should developers waste time and effort developing for it? And so, the circle goes around and down the drain, leading us back to where the mobile gaming currently has its base: the shiatter.
 
2013-06-20 05:21:10 PM

RoxtarRyan: This is a cheap moneygrab to take advantage of people think that shiatting games are capable of having the depth of story and playability of, hell, even NES or Genesis games.


So basically, the entire indie game movement?
 
2013-06-20 05:21:48 PM

Faddy: Is CliffyB even employed?


Nope.  His net worth is $15 million and he owns a Lambo because of paychecks from gamers.

The people he says are entitled, ruining the industry by used games, and need to be reined in are apparently us.  He as a master god race of game creators deserves what no other industry gets, right to resell into perpetuity.

I say gamers need to stop giving DB's like this their money, and watch them squirm.  It's not our problem they can't figure out how to run a business.  They'll go under and die and others will move in to take the moneysacks off the table in a more sustainable way.  The old guard from the 80's and 90's got fat, old, and stupid.  It's time to cull the herd and bring in fresh ideas.
 
2013-06-20 05:41:33 PM

AmazinTim: I see Xbox One's ability to cloud-compute game elements as a tremendous advantage in terms of gaming experiences that the platform can deliver. It opens the door for seemingly unlimited processing power.


...Yeah, no. That isn't going to happen.

Here's a good rule of thumb; whenever someone says anything about cloud computing that doesn't revolve around offsite data storage, there's a 90% chance that they're blowing smoke up your ass.
 
2013-06-20 05:46:34 PM

TyrantII: I say gamers need to stop giving DB's like this their money, and watch them squirm.  It's not our problem they can't figure out how to run a business.  They'll go under and die and others will move in to take the moneysacks off the table in a more sustainable way.  The old guard from the 80's and 90's got fat, old, and stupid.  It's time to cull the herd and bring in fresh ideas.


Problem.  The same people nodding in agreement will shiv you if you so much as suggest they shouldn't pre-order the next CoD, GoW, Battlefield or Halo (pick an IP it's all the same).   Game companies are very very aware of this behaviour and often encourage it.

Whilst that paradox exists the idiot spurgers will have money thrown at them by a legion of people who'll happily defend any statements said idiot makes.

Fortunately most of Fark's cliffyb appreciation club are (I believe at least) PC gamers...  so it really won't end well for him.
 
2013-06-20 05:55:35 PM

red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: poot_rootbeer: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If somebody's returning a game to Gamestop within 48 hours of obtaining it, it probably means the game was shyte and the publisher barely even deserves the revenue they got from the first time it was purchased, much less any additional revenue for the next sucker who falls for the hype.

red5ish: CrowdSceneExtra: If somebody wanders into a Gamestop even 48 hours after a game has released, there's a chance they can find a used copy which means somebody caught up in the release hype is getting the experience without any income for the publisher.

If a company has published a game that consumers are returning at a loss within such a short amount of time, and are returning in such quantities that it's seriously cutting into their profits, the problem is with the game itself.

Portal 2 single player only takes about 10 hours to beat for an average user.  Would you consider it garbage if somebody returns it after beating it?

No I can't honestly say that Portal or Portal 2 are garbage, but if there is only 10 hours of content/play time in those games with no replay value the publisher has designed a game that's going to be re-sold. I shouldn't have used the term "crappy" to describe all games that get quickly re-sold. It is, however, the publisher's and designer's decision to make games that are short and have little or no replay value. Valve knew this when they bundled the original Portal in the Orange Box release, and not many people turned around and resold their Orange Box the next day.


the number of hours worth of content in a game is maybe the most overrated thing in modern games

most modern gamers don't even finish games, hell i'm anything but a casual gamer and i still don't finish most of my games

i think gameplay systems matter so much more than content, a good gameplay system also makes it way cheaper and easier to extend the game without making players feel like they're player cheap filler too

i mean you look back at older games and most of the games were cut/paste content-wise, but the gameplay systems were so fun it didn't matter

nowadays they spend so much money on the content they feel the need to dumb down gameplay systems... it really shouldn't be that way, and content is more expensive than gameplay systems as well but i guess companies are dead-set on putting all their eggs in one basket so let them die if they want
 
2013-06-20 06:33:39 PM
Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.

So much for visionary.
 
2013-06-20 06:46:50 PM
Well, seeing as how this is today's tech thread surrogate...

Now that I'm giving up on consoles and moving into the PC gaming realm...

What's the best way to connect my EVGA GTX 650 to my tv? DVI or HDMI. It comes with a MiniHDMI slot, and I can run an adapter to regular HDMI to the tv...I hear the bonus of this method is I won't need a separate cable to transmit sound.
 
2013-06-20 06:47:17 PM

Someothermonkey: Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.

So much for visionary.


The sharing thing was one of the very few redeemable qualities about that system. Too bad they were full of shiat.
 
2013-06-20 06:50:39 PM

croesius: Well, seeing as how this is today's tech thread surrogate...

Now that I'm giving up on consoles and moving into the PC gaming realm...

What's the best way to connect my EVGA GTX 650 to my tv? DVI or HDMI. It comes with a MiniHDMI slot, and I can run an adapter to regular HDMI to the tv...I hear the bonus of this method is I won't need a separate cable to transmit sound.


I don't see why it wouldn't work.  It won't need a second cable.
 
2013-06-20 06:59:28 PM

Nefarious: croesius: Well, seeing as how this is today's tech thread surrogate...

Now that I'm giving up on consoles and moving into the PC gaming realm...

What's the best way to connect my EVGA GTX 650 to my tv? DVI or HDMI. It comes with a MiniHDMI slot, and I can run an adapter to regular HDMI to the tv...I hear the bonus of this method is I won't need a separate cable to transmit sound.

I don't see why it wouldn't work.  It won't need a second cable.


That's my thinking as well, I just saw differing opinions on the quality differential between the two methods on connection. I just am hard pressed to see DVI providing higher quality than HDMI, regardless of what anonymous forum posters were declaring.
 
2013-06-20 07:07:38 PM

chozo13: Someothermonkey: Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.

So much for visionary.

The sharing thing was one of the very few redeemable qualities about that system. Too bad they were full of shiat.


Frankly, it was bizarre that people thought microsoft or publishers would be okay with as many as 11 people all using one copy of a game. It was never going to work that way.
 
2013-06-20 07:08:40 PM

croesius: Nefarious: croesius: Well, seeing as how this is today's tech thread surrogate...

Now that I'm giving up on consoles and moving into the PC gaming realm...

What's the best way to connect my EVGA GTX 650 to my tv? DVI or HDMI. It comes with a MiniHDMI slot, and I can run an adapter to regular HDMI to the tv...I hear the bonus of this method is I won't need a separate cable to transmit sound.

I don't see why it wouldn't work.  It won't need a second cable.

That's my thinking as well, I just saw differing opinions on the quality differential between the two methods on connection. I just am hard pressed to see DVI providing higher quality than HDMI, regardless of what anonymous forum posters were declaring.


You won't even need an adaptor - HDMI to miniHDMI cables are available. Your card puts out 1080p HD so I think you're good to go.
 
2013-06-20 07:14:20 PM

Someothermonkey: chozo13: Someothermonkey: Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.

So much for visionary.

The sharing thing was one of the very few redeemable qualities about that system. Too bad they were full of shiat.

Frankly, it was bizarre that people thought microsoft or publishers would be okay with as many as 11 people all using one copy of a game. It was never going to work that way.


It's not a feature, it's an advertising pitch, like a test drive at a car dealership. It is not intended to improve your gaming experience, it is intended to sell more copies of the game.
 
2013-06-20 07:20:08 PM

Someothermonkey: Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.


Totally saw that coming.

It was utterly mind-blowing to me to learn that some people seriously thought Microsoft wanted them to be able to play their friend's games pretty much whenever they wanted. The whole POINT of the DRM thing was to make people buy more games, not fewer.
 
2013-06-20 07:38:08 PM

red5ish: Someothermonkey: chozo13: Someothermonkey: Newest reports are indicating the sharing a game between 10 friends was limited to a 60 minute demo. After which, users would be prompted to the market place to buy their own copy.

So much for visionary.

The sharing thing was one of the very few redeemable qualities about that system. Too bad they were full of shiat.

Frankly, it was bizarre that people thought microsoft or publishers would be okay with as many as 11 people all using one copy of a game. It was never going to work that way.

It's not a feature, it's an advertising pitch, like a test drive at a car dealership. It is not intended to improve your gaming experience, it is intended to sell more copies of the game.


It was most certainly not clarified to that extent hence the confusion. If you read the posts from previous threads on this, you'd see that not a small number of people actually thought microsoft was going incorporate a feature that would allow up to 11 people share a single copy of a game. And that's why those same people are upset at the "internet rage" that supposedly cost them this great new feature. Yeah, these people are idiots but it all begins with microsoft failing to properly clarify what they were doing. Granted, if they had come out and said sharing was limited to 60, the backlash would have been even more intense.
 
2013-06-20 08:10:01 PM

Someothermonkey: it all begins with microsoft failing to properly clarify what they were doing


My impression is that Microsoft is intentionally misleading their potential customers about many aspects of the Xbone. Many of the changes and "features" are intended to increase profits for Microsoft and are of little or no benefit to the customer. I think that for Microsoft, being a game company is straying a long way from their core competencies. They seem to feel they can and should monetized every aspect of the gaming experience. They also don't seem to understand - and this may be a part of their corporate culture - that they have serious (and possibly superior) competition for their customer base. Without backwards compatibility their console looks to be a technically inferior and pricier product than the PS4, and Microsoft's customer base has no persuasive reason to buy an Xbone over a PS4.
 
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