log_jammin: 2. Lincoln didn't care about black people.
UNC_Samurai: Sandwyrm: UNC_Samurai:Interesting, I never truly thought on the Cuban Missile Crisis and the subject of successfully prevented wars. It's slightly strange to think how much things would have changed with a tiny difference. That is true, but I would hasten to add that as long as the war stayed conventional, the Soviets would have been in a very poor tactical situation in Cuba. Unless they were willing to open a European front, they would have lost Cuba with a quickness. Not taking into account a protracted guerilla war which would have seriously sapped American power for a long time, of course.Definitely an interesting scenario, I'm going to think more on it.When Kennedy was in a briefing session with XCom, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Maxwell Taylor (the man who commanded the 101st Airborne for much of the war in Northwest Europe) advocated a military response and an invasion of Cuba./yet, Taylor was incredibly unhappy with the assassination of Diem a year later//hawks aren't necessarily snakes
BarkingUnicorn: "The Civil War was the last good time this country ever had." Richard Brautigan in "A Confederate General From Big Sur"
Phinn: A slave has 100% of his productivity taken by force, to benefit of others. At what percentage does it cease to be slavery? 90%? 80%
At some point before the person is no longer property, need no longer fear arbitrary physical punishment for insubordination to the boss, enjoys full political franchise including the right to run for public office, may own his own property, may travel at will, including beyond his own national borders, may find new employment better suited to his own satisfaction, may even obtain substantial assistance from the government which purportedly "enslaves" him to educate himself in order to improve his lot, enjoys the legal right to benefit on equal terms with those similarly situated to himself from the government's expenditure of his tax dollars paid...
You are not a slave. You are one of the most free, privileged persons ever to walk the planet. A lawfully imposed income tax pursuant to a power expressly granted to the federal government has nothing substantial in common with slavery whatsoever.
This is not a question of opinion. It is a question of IQ. Either you understand the difference between slavery and taxes imposed pursuant to law in a democratic society, or you don't. And if you don't, your failure to understand derives from a deficit in your cognition relating to your ability to process abstract concepts. That deficit in turn may arise from damage to your cerebral cortex sustained in the course of repeatedly beating your head against a hard object such as a brick wall.
My prescription: a medical safety helmet, to be worn at all times. Even around the house.
manimal2878: Neither of those things are saying the person is the property of the government.
Waldo Pepper: please how is my statement dumb. I feel it is unfair to judge someone from 150 years ago based on today's standards and not the standards and laws that were in place during their life. To equate gays with african americans slaves is so demeaning to the life slaves lived compared to the lush FREE life that all gays in this country live.
The South was great until the North found out about it
Repo Man: Who was the ultimate founding father?
Kyro: IdBeCrazyIf: Kyro: Don't you just love it when historical figures we admire turn out to be douchebags?To be fair, almost everyone has been a douche bag or asshole at some point in their lifeI think my favorite has been Washington. Jesus Christ was that man a world class prick.- Joined the American revolution cause because the British wouldn't promote him as high as he wanted.- Underclothed, underfed his troops. Shot deserters.- Nearly lost the entire Revolutionary War at the onset because he wanted to beat the British in a knock-down drag-out open fight.- Owned about 150 slaves at the time of his death.Not that the man wasn't without his virtues. But there's something hilarious and dismaying about finding out the penultimate founding father was an utter douche bag.
Waldo Pepper: Mr. Right: ChaosStar: Last time I made that argument in a Fark thread I was labeled a troll and a liar, but got a TF sponsorship. Fark is weird.Facts are tricky things. Read the writings of the northerners on the subject and you'll find that, for purposes of representation, they didn't want slaves counted at all. It was the slave states that wanted them counted as full people. Not that it would have improved their lot in life any under slavery, they just would have counted when it came to power in the government. 3/5s could be counted as a victory for slave states - it's more than half. For government purposes in those days, slaves didn't really exist. There was no welfare to dole out to them so they didn't matter to the government from that perspective, they weren't allowed to vote, nor did they pay taxes. There were no federal funds for education but it wouldn't have mattered since children of slaves weren't permitted to be educated. Other than counting toward representation, slaves really were non-entities insofar as government interaction was concerned.That is funny/sad how nobody ever points out the North not wanting slaves to count at all. It would be a fun point to make when some blow hard is pointing out the 3/5th fact to someone from the south. "well your ancestor didn't want them counted as a person at all"
Sandwyrm: badhatharry:There was also not widespread mistreatment of slaves. It was against the law. Slaves were treated like what they were. Valuable property.Meaningless, the very notion of slavery is abhorrent. Treatment of a slave is nothing more than a footnote to describe just how far your damnation goes.
Securitywyrm: From a legal perspective, the civil war was unconstitutional.
hb0mb: Neither side cared about black people.
Englebert Slaptyback: StaleCoffeeWhere do they teach that the Civil War was some romantic, noble cause? Even my 6 year old has been taught that it was bloody, miserable and one of the most brutal wars the U.S. has ever participated in. It's the go-to subject for Why We Should Talk Things Out First as a simple explanation for younger folks. Hell, even most of the films I've seen focus on the free license for grisly demonstration of exploding limbs, not gallant men giving long speeches to each other as they gently bleed out on a sunny field.As with any war, the "noble cause" and the day-to-day horrors were abstracted from each other.In the case of the Civil War, you have long rifles firing lead bullets that in some cases were close to an inch in diameter. Such projectiles will make a mess of most humans (even at comparatively low velocity) regardless of motivation. Remember too that battlefield medical treatment could be just as brutal and bloody: there is a reason the doctor's nickname was "sawbones".
thamike: For those of you braindead enough to find the the story of the Civil War an "uplifting" one, this article's for you.
log_jammin: 1. The war had nothing to do with slavery.2. Lincoln didn't care about black people.3. The south didn't care about slavery, just their freedom.4. The north started the war.There. all your southern historical revisionism in one tidy little package.
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