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7031 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Jun 2013 at 6:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-20 09:01:41 AM

Maul555: CrowdSceneExtra: MythDragon: There seems to be quite  a few people on gamefaqs that are pissed at this. For God's sake why? They seem to think that DRM ladden games would be cheaper. And taking away the constant on-line requirement somehow ruins the system? The fark?

Why are people actualy mad about this?

I'm annoyed at this change.  I couldn't care less about used games because I don't sell my games and it's been years since I bought one.  What I was looking forward to most was disc-less gaming.  Just install the game and then you can switch between TV, apps, or any game seamlessly.  Now you'll need to swap discs to switch between games.  No more playing one game, getting an invite to another game and switching without digging around on your shelves to find the new disc.

I can still get a similar experience buying the full games off of XBL, but my bandwidth caps suck so I'll be paying a lot of overage fees if I want to enjoy disc-less gaming and if I delete something from the HDD I'll need to re-download it rather than reinstalling it from a disc.  It's stupid that the same data needs to be treated differently just because one set of data was downloaded and the other set was burned to a CD and shipped.  It's not a popular opinion, but I would rather that MS did away with used games as a means of disabling the 24 hour check-in rather than leaving used games intact and requiring a disc check before playing.

If this is really is changing like you say, then it has nothing to do with the public/developers pressuring Microsoft into reversing their policies.   Microsoft can still implement this feature if they want.   Absolutely nothing is stopping them but their own self-imposed policies.   They could allow the best of both worlds...



Read the latest update.  If you buy a disc-based game now, the disc needs to be in the tray.  With the previous system, the disc was just an install media and all license management was handled digitally by the check-in.  This was to allow people to trade-in a disc based game.  The retailers needed a way to revoke the license from the original owner so that the next buyer had a valid license.  Otherwise, people could have installed games onto their Xbox and traded in the disc, but with no way to revoke the digital license the original purchaser could have played indefinitely.  The old system, if the check-in was removed, was ripe for abuse.

I can think of no way that a system can support 1) disconnected play, 2) disc-less running, and 3) reselling all at the same time.  The original Xbox system thought disc-less running and reselling were the greatest features, but apparently the internet thinks disconnected play and reselling are the best features.  I personally would have gone with the PC route of disconnected play and disc-less running (aka the Steam approach).
 
2013-06-20 09:05:11 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: BAMFinator: Too late MS.  Friends and family are switching to PS4 so that is where my money is going.  XB1 has some nice exclusives, but so does PS4.
Saw someone say "a day late and a dollar short" I would say, "A day late and $100 short."

/I will be sad to miss TitanFall until it makes it to the PS4.

IIRC, it's coming to PC as well, so all hope is not lost.


That is true. Steam will help out a lot there.
That was really the only game I wanted on xb1
 
2013-06-20 09:15:26 AM

Cytokine Storm: None of you understand this issue, this guy gets it.

More studios WILL close and you'll see more PC and mobile games.
I have seen the number of unique gamer tags vs actual sales numbers and it ain't pretty.
At the end of the day many hardcore dislike what was attempted. You can't do well in that space with many of your core unhappy... Especially when users have a choice. The nature of capitalism encourages competition and Sony played into that.
Brace yourselves. More tacked on multiplayer and DLC are coming.
You're also about to see available microtransactions skyrocket. HATS FOR EVERYONE.
I want *developers* who worked their asses off to see money on every copy of their game that is sold instead of Gamestop. fark me, right?
*Sony* forced Microsoft's hand, not the internet whining.
You're going to see digital versions of your favorite games with added "features" and content to lure you to digital over disc based.
I find it funny how people are saying that I "lost" when I don't have a job or an allegiance now.
What I do have is 20 years of experience making games and seeing how the sausage is made.

-Cliffy B.


Hahaha you used XBRO frat boy incarnate to portray your feelings?

Make a game worth keeping and you won't see people reselling. Like someone else said, that douche is the Rob Leifeld of video games.
 
2013-06-20 10:12:00 AM
Why can't MS allow used games as they currently exist AND digital rights sharing/transfer to sell your downloaded games? Everyone is talking like it's an either/or, that seems like an artificially imposed choice.
 
2013-06-20 10:15:02 AM

Electromax: Why can't MS allow used games as they currently exist AND digital rights sharing/transfer to sell your downloaded games? Everyone is talking like it's an either/or, that seems like an artificially imposed choice.


Meh, to me it feels like a fair trade. If you want to digitally download, it's there immediately but it's yours only (and it should be a little cheaper). If you want to be able to trade freely with friends then you gotta put a little more effort (either go to a store or order online and wait).

But we'll have to wait and see what happens, you never know. There's rumors going around that Steam is working on a used game market for digital games.
 
2013-06-20 10:16:14 AM

BAMFinator: Too late MS.  Friends and family are switching to PS4 so that is where my money is going.  XB1 has some nice exclusives, but so does PS4.
Saw someone say "a day late and a dollar short" I would say, "A day late and $100 short."

/I will be sad to miss TitanFall until it makes it to the PS4.


More of XBO's exclusives will come to PC than PS4s. If you can manage a Steam Box and a PS4 I think you're covered.
 
2013-06-20 10:16:37 AM

Mangoose: "Xbox One hardware is not compatible with Xbox 360 games. We designed Xbox One to play an entirely new generation of games-games that are architected to take full advantage of state-of-the-art processors and the infinite power of the cloud. "

That's some mighty fine bullshiat you got there.


Yeah, especially because the "state-of-the-art processors" are x86-64 based and NOBODY could figure out how to make a PowerPC emulator for that, no sir.

At least with the PS4 and PS3 games I buy that they can't make a direct emulator, since even the people programming for it didn't understand the PS3's damn Cell processor.

Some 'Splainin' To Do: Not everyone is interested in loaning games, in the first place, and there are plenty of users out there who do not always have guaranteed connections to the Internet. I know that my military friends were, in particular, considering this a deal breaker because it meant that they couldn't use the consoles on many of their deployments.

Worse, MS just brushed those concerns aside by claiming that we were now in a networked world and that we should just deal with it. They weren't expecting people to deal with it by switching to Sony, I guess.


Yep.  As someone posting from a borrowed connection because their DSL is refusing to cooperate right now, let me tell you that the world is not ready for a once-a-day check-in on a console yet.  If Microsoft wants that they can use some of their obscene wealth to lobby congress to make the telcos actually upgrade everyone to broadband like they were supposed to twenty-fark years ago.

Some 'Splainin' To Do: I've heard both that it was going to be, period, and also that it would be, but only for streaming titles. This is the first I've heard that it flat out won't be.


Sony's said in a few places that the PS4 can't be "natively" backwards compatible (as in play things off the disc) because of the vast difference in architecture.  Unlike the Xbone, that argument makes sense, since emulating the Cell and its dozen-ish subprocessors (that nobody figured out how to use) is not really doable.  Every time they've said that though, they've also said that they'll be offering older titles as streaming downloads, possibly PSN titles or something else.  On the one hand, I doubt they'll offer credit if you already own the physical copy of the game.  On the other hand, its better than the XBO is going to do.

change1211: Both consoles are switching to a new architecture, therefore neither console can play old disks.


As above, but I have to claim bullshiat on this.  Sony at least can argue "we made the Cell too complicated".  MS has ALREADY done cross-architecture backwards compatibility when they allowed certain Xbox titles to run on the 360, and that was x86-32 -> PowerPC.  So it's already been done before, and yet PowerPC -> x86-64 is some kind of dark voodoo magic?  Bullshiat.

moothemagiccow: It's DRM. Just because everyone co-opts the word DRM to mean something new every year doesn't mean no DRM. The most basic definition of DRM is copy-protection. DRM covers everything from region-locking and hardware incompatibility to persistent online authentication, which is what we're talking about.

It's not "no DRM." It's "some DRM." Just because it's common or old doesn't mean it's not DRM.


Actually, the most basic definition of DRM is "Digital Rights Management", as in the rights management itself is digital, not the thing that is being managed is digital.  So no, physical media is not DRM.  Physical media is the distribution method.

MrSteve007: At least in my situation, and most folks these days, broadband isn't that hard to find. shiat, I have 100Mbps fiber at work, 35 Mbps DSL or cable at home, Clearwire's WiMax gives me 25 Mbps even out on my boat, and even my cell phone has a ping of 82 and download speeds between 9 and 18 Mbps - and I live out in the middle of farm fields. Even if you're way out in the middle of nowhere, you can get decent internet via satellite - like my parents do out in the mountains.

If you say you can't get any internet above dial-up, and you live in the lower 48 states, you're not even trying - or a poor ass sucker who can't afford a $500 console in the first place.


Alright shiatbird, what magical candyland do you live in?  'cause I live less than an hour away from a major metropolitan area and my internet options are:

1) Dial up
2) < 3mbps DSL over copper
3) < 5mbps Wifi with 300ms minimum ping time and packetloss above 10%
4) < 5mbps Satellite with a minimum ping time of 1200ms because physics
5) < 4mbps phone connection which gets oversaturated at 50 simultaneous connections (so, like, opening youtube, your email, and skype all at the same time makes it freeze).

And I'm lucky compared to some of my relatives.  I have family members who I have had to walk through getting ISDN set up because that is literally their best option.

A huge chunk of the country does not have access to good broadband, particularly in the mountainous areas where running fiber is difficult if not impossible.

Also, I call bullshiat on your numbers.  Unless your phone is made out of unobtanium there's no way that 9mbps is sustainable.  9mbps burst, maybe.
 
2013-06-20 10:28:51 AM

RexTalionis: codergirl42: Yeah it's not like you ever had to outstretch your arms for extended periods of times in real life.

Typically, I don't. They usually just hang at my side. I am not a Chinese vampire.


img.fark.net

"Brah!"
 
2013-06-20 10:38:54 AM

Elegy: TheOmni: Elegy: I'm actually a little bummed that MS backed down. I understand why they did it - Internet hate machine was steamrolling them and all - but with the DRM checking came the ability loan out digital copies of my game library, meaning I could have swapped games with my XBL friends. Now, no DRM, back to shiatty single-use licensing for digital content.

It's not no DRM. It's just back to the shiatty DRM we have had before instead of a new and differently shiatty DRM.

Being able to lend out 10 digital copies of games isn't a shiatty DRM - it would have been the most permissive DRM for digital content in the industry. The 24/1 hr checkins were needed to counterbalance people cheating the loan system.

But everyone screamed about 24hr checkins, and MS didn't get on top of the message that the checkins were counterbalanced by a very generous loan policy, and now we're back to the same shiatty model Steam and the 360 have, where I buy a digital game and its stuck on my device [sigh]


Don't worry, Valve is already stealing the idea of shared libraries, and it will be the best thing ever because it's not MS....  This is why we can't have nice things.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/19/4445844/valve-steam-game-sharing
 
2013-06-20 10:41:02 AM
 
2013-06-20 10:53:12 AM

yukichigai: Also, I call bullshiat on your numbers.  Unless your phone is made out of unobtanium there's no way that 9mbps is sustainable.  9mbps burst, maybe.


You're free to judge yourself. Notice that there's one wifi connected test, and all the rest are from cell towers - and the last few were all done right next to one another, so it's no burst speed. I guess I'll keep using my unobtanium phone (with unlimited data)
fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-06-20 10:58:23 AM

way south: Fun story: When World of warcraft designers wanted to prevent players from burning through the content too quickly, they decided to come up with a rest system. Play too long and they penalize your XP take.
Players hated it.
So the designers withdrew it but came up with a new system that, instead, gave you an XP bonus for the first few hours of play before tapering off.
Players loved it.


One way encourages you to play less by making your time more efficient.  One discourages you from continuing to play by making your time progressively less valuable.  Why were they stupid to love the 2nd way over the 1st?  Because it made their efforts more productive, rather than the same or worse?
 
2013-06-20 11:00:04 AM

CrowdSceneExtra: I can think of no way that a system can support 1) disconnected play, 2) disc-less running, and 3) reselling all at the same time.  The original Xbox system thought disc-less running and reselling were the greatest features, but apparently the internet thinks disconnected play and reselling are the best features.  I personally would have gone with the PC route of disconnected play and disc-less running (aka the Steam approach).


From what I understand, Valve has been exploring the option of reselling on Steam.  They kind of have the infrastructure now, with "gifting", it is just a matter of maybe making a microtransaction ($1 - $5) on top of the sales to make it a reality (so the license holders would agree).  I could foresee several ways it could work, one of which would be:

-Only resell games after a given window past initial release (i.e. 1 year)
-All reselling would give a cut to 3 parties: the licensholder, the original purchaser, valve.  So out of maybe a $20 resale, you get $15, the valve and lets say bethesday would split $5.  The $15 would be in Steam store credit, not real world currency.
 
2013-06-20 11:14:23 AM

RyansPrivates: CrowdSceneExtra: I can think of no way that a system can support 1) disconnected play, 2) disc-less running, and 3) reselling all at the same time.  The original Xbox system thought disc-less running and reselling were the greatest features, but apparently the internet thinks disconnected play and reselling are the best features.  I personally would have gone with the PC route of disconnected play and disc-less running (aka the Steam approach).

From what I understand, Valve has been exploring the option of reselling on Steam.  They kind of have the infrastructure now, with "gifting", it is just a matter of maybe making a microtransaction ($1 - $5) on top of the sales to make it a reality (so the license holders would agree).  I could foresee several ways it could work, one of which would be:

-Only resell games after a given window past initial release (i.e. 1 year)
-All reselling would give a cut to 3 parties: the licensholder, the original purchaser, valve.  So out of maybe a $20 resale, you get $15, the valve and lets say bethesday would split $5.  The $15 would be in Steam store credit, not real world currency.


It would be interesting to see how reselling works with steam sales. Could I buy 20 copies of a game when it is on sale for 90% off, wait for the sale to end and then resell them for a couple bucks more than I paid (but still less than normal selling price)?
 
2013-06-20 11:18:22 AM

Elegy: 6 great things you're losing with xbox's DRM change.

Discuss.

/or feel free to submit


Easy: Every single one of the things on that list (except for cloud computing, which is marketing bullshiat) could still be done without the 24-hour check-in portion of the DRM (and the other asinine bits):

1) Digital Library: could still be done with digital copies of the game.  Correction, WILL be done with digital copies of the game.  You want your games managed by a digital library?  Easy: BUY THE DIGITAL VERSION.  Microsoft has confirmed they're still going this route, so it's not lost.

2) Sharing with 10 family members: No, it's not lost.  You can still share your games with 10 family members.  Hell, you can share them with 100 family members, one at a time, because that's how game discs work.  Now as far as sharing DIGITAL copies goes, the only reason that's lost is because MS is pulling it, not because the always-on DRM is going away.  Keeping track of who is allowed to have the game and who is not ain't exactly rocket science.  Make them connect to the internet simultaneously once to do the loan, then again to return the game.  Maybe even make the person with the loaned game connect once per day to ensure the loan is still good.  There, fixed.  Was that hard?

3) No gifting purchased games online: Again, this is only going away because Microsoft is making it go away.  The same concept as the above: it's not hard to figure out how to do this one.  Steam is already implementing this (because the EU says they have to) and they sure as hell aren't implementing any 24-hour check-ins.  So no, it's not because of the loss of DRM, it's because MS doesn't feel like doing it anymore.

4) You have to use a game disc: This is just #1 phrased a different way.  But to pretend this is a different question (somehow): if someone wants an all-digital, no disc swapping setup they'll buy the digital versions of their games.  If they don't like swapping discs, maybe they shouldn't buy games on disc.

5) Cloud computing: is absolutely irrelevant for gaming purposes, and for the very same reason the 24-hour check-in was: the world's broadband infrastructure simply isn't there.  If you live in a town that gets FIOS then yeah, maybe you can use some sweet offloaded server processing awesomeness.  If you live where I am, where 1.5m is a good connection... no.  Just, no.  It wasn't going to work even with the DRM.  It's not lost, because it never existed.

6) Low priced games: We call that "buying used games from craigslist/ebay/gamestop" around these parts.  There is still a low-priced games market, it just isn't one run by the platform creator.  I won't even get into the argument over whether or not games would actually have been low price because of the DRM.

In other words, we haven't actually lost anything, other than asinine DRM that most of the world's broadband capabilities simply couldn't support.
 
2013-06-20 11:20:03 AM

Carth: It would be interesting to see how reselling works with steam sales. Could I buy 20 copies of a game when it is on sale for 90% off, wait for the sale to end and then resell them for a couple bucks more than I paid (but still less than normal selling price)?


good point.  I hadn't thought of the Steam steals, sales.  If dong this ends them, then forget it.  I love me some steam sales.
 
2013-06-20 11:22:02 AM

MrSteve007: yukichigai: Also, I call bullshiat on your numbers.  Unless your phone is made out of unobtanium there's no way that 9mbps is sustainable.  9mbps burst, maybe.

You're free to judge yourself. Notice that there's one wifi connected test, and all the rest are from cell towers - and the last few were all done right next to one another, so it's no burst speed. I guess I'll keep using my unobtanium phone (with unlimited data)
[fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net image 768x1280]


A speed test shows you burst speed.  Unless it was running that speed test for an hour straight the only thing it showed is that your phone was able to manage fast speeds for a minute or two at a time.  Not really useful for online gaming if it can't do any longer than that.
 
2013-06-20 11:25:55 AM

RyansPrivates: Carth: It would be interesting to see how reselling works with steam sales. Could I buy 20 copies of a game when it is on sale for 90% off, wait for the sale to end and then resell them for a couple bucks more than I paid (but still less than normal selling price)?

good point.  I hadn't thought of the Steam steals, sales.  If dong this ends them, then forget it.  I love me some steam sales.


Agreed. I guess they could always put a limit that you can't resell anything for more than you paid for it. That might piss off developers still since I"m sure you'd have some nice people who would still do it and just break even then solicit donations externally.
 
2013-06-20 11:26:03 AM

Carth: It would be interesting to see how reselling works with steam sales. Could I buy 20 copies of a game when it is on sale for 90% off, wait for the sale to end and then resell them for a couple bucks more than I paid (but still less than normal selling price)?


It probably wouldn't be hard to link virtual copies of the game with their original purchase price, even retroactively (I know they keep purchase and payment records basically forever).  All they'd have to do to curtail that would be to make it so you could only sell it for as much or less than you bought it for.
 
2013-06-20 11:35:19 AM

yukichigai: 2) Sharing with 10 family members: No, it's not lost. You can still share your games with 10 family members. Hell, you can share them with 100 family members, one at a time, because that's how game discs work. Now as far as sharing DIGITAL copies goes, the only reason that's lost is because MS is pulling it, not because the always-on DRM is going away. Keeping track of who is allowed to have the game and who is not ain't exactly rocket science. Make them connect to the internet simultaneously once to do the loan, then again to return the game. Maybe even make the person with the loaned game connect once per day to ensure the loan is still good. There, fixed. Was that hard?


Plus they had no farking clue how that was actually going to work. That was their frist knee-jerk reaction to the backlash regarding lending/selling used games. All they said was "Well we're doing a family plan where you can share!" When someone asked about the details it was "We don't have any details, but it'll be cool!"

I'm fine with seeing a "feature" disappear that wasn't even really there in the first place.
 
2013-06-20 11:43:38 AM
They might be changing their way at launch, but I bet the terms of service state they can change it at their whim.  Then again who the hell reads those...

Screw Microsoft
Screw Sony

Both want to invade your privacy...
 
2013-06-20 11:55:21 AM

RyansPrivates: CrowdSceneExtra: I can think of no way that a system can support 1) disconnected play, 2) disc-less running, and 3) reselling all at the same time.  The original Xbox system thought disc-less running and reselling were the greatest features, but apparently the internet thinks disconnected play and reselling are the best features.  I personally would have gone with the PC route of disconnected play and disc-less running (aka the Steam approach).

From what I understand, Valve has been exploring the option of reselling on Steam.  They kind of have the infrastructure now, with "gifting", it is just a matter of maybe making a microtransaction ($1 - $5) on top of the sales to make it a reality (so the license holders would agree).  I could foresee several ways it could work, one of which would be:

-Only resell games after a given window past initial release (i.e. 1 year)
-All reselling would give a cut to 3 parties: the licensholder, the original purchaser, valve.  So out of maybe a $20 resale, you get $15, the valve and lets say bethesday would split $5.  The $15 would be in Steam store credit, not real world currency.



I can see a Steam re-selling system working because it doesn't rely on discs and you'll need to be online to transfer the license.  I higly doubt you will be able to take a disc for a Steam enabled game and sell it offline like you can with console discs at Gamestop, and even then Steam still checks in occasionally to verify your licenses in offline mode (most people report 14 days in offline mode before it needs to recheck).
 
2013-06-20 12:03:06 PM

CrowdSceneExtra: Maul555: CrowdSceneExtra: MythDragon: There seems to be quite  a few people on gamefaqs that are pissed at this. For God's sake why? They seem to think that DRM ladden games would be cheaper. And taking away the constant on-line requirement somehow ruins the system? The fark?

Why are people actualy mad about this?

I'm annoyed at this change.  I couldn't care less about used games because I don't sell my games and it's been years since I bought one.  What I was looking forward to most was disc-less gaming.  Just install the game and then you can switch between TV, apps, or any game seamlessly.  Now you'll need to swap discs to switch between games.  No more playing one game, getting an invite to another game and switching without digging around on your shelves to find the new disc.

I can still get a similar experience buying the full games off of XBL, but my bandwidth caps suck so I'll be paying a lot of overage fees if I want to enjoy disc-less gaming and if I delete something from the HDD I'll need to re-download it rather than reinstalling it from a disc.  It's stupid that the same data needs to be treated differently just because one set of data was downloaded and the other set was burned to a CD and shipped.  It's not a popular opinion, but I would rather that MS did away with used games as a means of disabling the 24 hour check-in rather than leaving used games intact and requiring a disc check before playing.

If this is really is changing like you say, then it has nothing to do with the public/developers pressuring Microsoft into reversing their policies.   Microsoft can still implement this feature if they want.   Absolutely nothing is stopping them but their own self-imposed policies.   They could allow the best of both worlds...


Read the latest update.  If you buy a disc-based game now, the disc needs to be in the tray.  With the previous system, the disc was just an install media and all license management was handled digitally by the check-in.  This ...


I know it seems ripe for abuse, but I think that never being able to put your Xbox online again if you want to abuse the system is a pretty high price to pay.
 
2013-06-20 12:25:00 PM

yukichigai: A speed test shows you burst speed. Unless it was running that speed test for an hour straight the only thing it showed is that your phone was able to manage fast speeds for a minute or two at a time. Not really useful for online gaming if it can't do any longer than that.


Dude, what online game requires a constant 10 Mbps of stream to function? Bandwidth of online gaming is next to nothing in comparison. Ping is what matters. As for sustained speeds, I regularly spend hour+ periods streaming 720p HD netflix streams on the phone with no loss in quality. Heck, 1 out of 4 of all US cell subscribers currently have LTE data, and that's expected to rise to 3 out of 4 cell subscribers within the next 3-years. Even the New York Times says that LTE data speeds are "enough for smooth streaming for live video and better response times for online multiplayer games. "

Even Microsoft's "cloud" rendering for the XB1 only needs 1.5Mbps to function, which if I had to, I know my LTE data could hold up to that standard.

Face it, not only have I proved that "unobtanium" phones exist, but I proved my claim with a screenshot of multiple data transfers w/ high pings, and additionally sourced my data from two well known sources. You, on the other-hand, have just spouted contrarian bullshiat and haven't sourced a single opinion.
 
2013-06-20 12:27:42 PM
Serious question about Kinect.  I have zero interest in Kinect but I still may lean towards an XB1.  All of my gear is literally in a ventilated closet, so there's no light and the only sound is from equipment and the exhaust fan.  So, I could simply throw the Kinect in the closet and it can enjoy staring into darkness while listening to fans whir.  Is this solution feasible, or does something with Kinect REQUIRE human interaction at some point?
 
2013-06-20 12:40:16 PM
Cliffy B. and all the game devs that want to double-dip on getting paid for their work can bite me and the rest of the art community. Among other things, I'm a writer, artist, musician, etc. and if someone buys a book or album I created, I get royalties from the FIRST sale. I get nothing if the person resells it to someone else... AND I LIKE IT THAT WAY. I   want  it that way.

I want people to share my work. If I get paid from the first sale, and the person who bought it can make back some money selling it to someone else, I may not get the royalties, but I get a new audience member. Maybe this person likes it enough to buy a new copy, or maybe they like it enough to seek out other things I made. Either way, it's ultimately GOOD for me if I don't impose a "you can't buy used" rule on people.

Cliffy B. and other devs like him are short-sighted and greedy. The ones who work for big companies are paid a healthy salary for their work (see "work for hire"), and can work out royalty/merchandising deals on the side if they actually own the IP. If they're indie developers, then they get paid with each sale and they get MORE sales when people share their work and give them advertising and exposure.

Preventing people from selling what they've purchased, buying used, and sharing with friends/family is a great way to alienate and isolate your audience. There are hundreds of books, albums, movies, and other things I would never have been exposed to if I hadn't found them in used bookstores, record stores, rental businesses, or my friends' bookshelves.

And when I found these things and liked them, I sought out the creator and bought more of their work.

So again: Cliffy B. can kiss my ass. He's a jerk who is in the business for money, not to be creative. This is why so many of us refer to him as the Rob Liefeld of video games; He's not particularly talented, and he thinks he deserves praise and pay for everything he does, even in the second-hand market. Screw you, Cliff.
 
2013-06-20 12:40:27 PM

Super_pope: way south: Fun story: When World of warcraft designers wanted to prevent players from burning through the content too quickly, they decided to come up with a rest system. Play too long and they penalize your XP take.
Players hated it.
So the designers withdrew it but came up with a new system that, instead, gave you an XP bonus for the first few hours of play before tapering off.
Players loved it.

One way encourages you to play less by making your time more efficient.  One discourages you from continuing to play by making your time progressively less valuable.  Why were they stupid to love the 2nd way over the 1st?  Because it made their efforts more productive, rather than the same or worse?




In both versions of the new system you were penalized for going over the arbitrarily allotted play time.
All they did was change the name and players stopped complaining, regardless of the fact they were still getting screwed.
Now other mmos have adopted the same system they once derided.

...Which is the point here. People will want digital licensing when its sold properly.
Microsoft failed at the sales pitch. We haven't seen the end of the idea.
 
2013-06-20 12:41:01 PM

MrSteve007: yukichigai: A speed test shows you burst speed. Unless it was running that speed test for an hour straight the only thing it showed is that your phone was able to manage fast speeds for a minute or two at a time. Not really useful for online gaming if it can't do any longer than that.

Dude, what online game requires a constant 10 Mbps of stream to function? Bandwidth of online gaming is next to nothing in comparison. Ping is what matters. As for sustained speeds, I regularly spend hour+ periods streaming 720p HD netflix streams on the phone with no loss in quality. Heck, 1 out of 4 of all US cell subscribers currently have LTE data, and that's expected to rise to 3 out of 4 cell subscribers within the next 3-years. Even the New York Times says that LTE data speeds are "enough for smooth streaming for live video and better response times for online multiplayer games. "

Even Microsoft's "cloud" rendering for the XB1 only needs 1.5Mbps to function, which if I had to, I know my LTE data could hold up to that standard.


Face it, not only have I proved that "unobtanium" phones exist, but I proved my claim with a screenshot of multiple data transfers w/ high pings, and additionally sourced my data from two well known sources. You, on the other-hand, have just spouted contrarian bullshiat and haven't sourced a single opinion.


I called your 9mbps claim bullshiat and said it could maybe manage 9mbps burst, not sustained.  You responded by posting results of a speed test, which measures burst speed.  Then you went off on a tangent about some 10mbps connection requirement I supposedly talked about and gave two links refuting something I never said.

Your phone is not unobtanium, it's like every other phone: it can handle bursts of high speed traffic, then will inevitably choke when trying to sustain speed because either the cell tower or the connection itself gets oversaturated.  When that happens the bandwidth doesn't just drop, your latency gets sporadic as hell.  Which, like I said, makes it useless for online gaming.

And since you care about sources, source: anyone who's tried to play an online FPS over a tethered phone connection ever.
 
2013-06-20 12:52:49 PM

way south: In both versions of the new system you were penalized for going over the arbitrarily allotted play time.


"When rested, your XP bar will turn blue, and a notch will appear indicating exactly how rested you are. You will earn double XP from killing monsters while rested until your XP bar fills to the notch. A rested character earns double combat XP until this rest state is consumed"

So... my non-play time can be banked to make my play time doubly productive versus:

"In the beta version of the original game, rest did not exist and experience was designed to prevent players from playing more than few hours in a row. Experience gained was divided by 50% after few hours."

In one version, I get double productivity for the hours I play in exchange for the hours I DON'T play.  In the other, I get regular productivity for the hours I play, up until a certain point where the hours I play become half as productive.

In the first instance, I literally lose nothing by continuing to play, and I gain a substantial benefit from the rest.  In the second, I literally gain nothing, and if I continue trying to play my productivity declines sharply.  I don't know how you interpret the first scenario as "getting screwed."
 
2013-06-20 12:58:00 PM
yukichigai: I called your 9mbps claim bullshiat and said it could maybe manage 9mbps burst, not sustained. You responded by posting results of a speed test, which measures burst speed.

1) Speedtest samples speeds over time and averages them.

Throughput samples are received at up to 30 times per second.
These samples are then aggregated into 20 slices (each being 5% of the samples).
The fastest 10% and slowest 30% of the slices are then discarded. We'll explain that more below.


2) LTE is capable of doing 30 mbps sustained under ideal conditions (maybe faster now, I'm not a phone tester anymore)

That was under lab conditions though, but that translates into a very real, very sustainable 10+ mbps in the real world.

// YMMV depending on location and carrier, but in my case, I don't even bother connecting to wifi because invariably if I have a 4G connection, it's faster than whatever open wifi I can find. OTOH, OMFG 3G feels so slow now.
 
2013-06-20 01:02:25 PM
yukichigai : And since you care about sources, source: anyone who's tried to play an online FPS over a tethered phone connection ever.

Also on the gaming front, it's the latency that counts the most, not the bandwidth.

Source: Everyone who ever played doom, quake, quake 2 over a dialup modem at 33.6

// thankfully, my ISP back then ran quake 2 servers, their central hub was just about 10 miles north of me. 20-30 ms pings == nice. Outside of their servers, I was lucky to get 60-80ms.
 
2013-06-20 01:11:44 PM

Maul555: Read the latest update. If you buy a disc-based game now, the disc needs to be in the tray. With the previous system, the disc was just an install media and all license management was handled digitally by the check-in. This ...

I know it seems ripe for abuse, but I think that never being able to put your Xbox online again if you want to abuse the system is a pretty high price to pay.



You could still put your Xbox online after you had finished a single player game, but by trading it in immediately you would get your copy of the game straight into the used game market when its value was highest and when publishers rely the most on new sales to turn a profit.

Consider a blockbuster game, for example The Last of Us.  It's a single player game and I've heard that it takes 20-24 hours to play through the full story and get the full experience out of the game.  If I can play 1-2 hrs per day and was intent on trading it in as soon as I finished it, my copy of the game would stay out of the used game market for around 2 weeks.

EB Games up here in Canuckistan (our Gamestop) is running a promotion for TLoU.  If you trade it in, they will give you its purchase price minus $1 per day you've had the game.  They want used copies on the shelf so that they can pocket the cash rather than the publisher.  With a no-disc, no-check-in system, I could go to the midnight launch of the game, install it on my console, unplug the network, and resell the game back to EB for $1 less than I bought it when the store opens in the morning.  The first customer to walk into EB that wasn't at the midnight release could already get a used copy, yet I still have a copy on my console at home that I can finish at my own leisure.  After I've finished the game, I can then plug my console back in, get the license revoked, and go back to EB for my next game.
 
2013-06-20 01:12:23 PM
Of course, after a while, they will update their EULA and force you to upgrade to a version which switches this all back on due to "so much hacking" or whatnot.

You're gonna get it; it's just a matter of time.

/adjusts tin foil hat
 
2013-06-20 01:21:08 PM

IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: Serious question about Kinect. I have zero interest in Kinect but I still may lean towards an XB1. All of my gear is literally in a ventilated closet, so there's no light and the only sound is from equipment and the exhaust fan. So, I could simply throw the Kinect in the closet and it can enjoy staring into darkness while listening to fans whir. Is this solution feasible, or does something with Kinect REQUIRE human interaction at some point?


It should function like that . . . but I assume you have a HDMI cord running from that closet to your TV. Just snake the Kinect cord along the same route and mount it below the TV. The voice control is actually pretty nice when watching Netflix, especially when your hands are all greasy from popcorn. If you're afraid of the camera, just put some tape over it.
 
2013-06-20 01:26:36 PM

MrSteve007: yukichigai: A speed test shows you burst speed. Unless it was running that speed test for an hour straight the only thing it showed is that your phone was able to manage fast speeds for a minute or two at a time. Not really useful for online gaming if it can't do any longer than that.

Dude, what online game requires a constant 10 Mbps of stream to function? Bandwidth of online gaming is next to nothing in comparison. Ping is what matters. As for sustained speeds, I regularly spend hour+ periods streaming 720p HD netflix streams on the phone with no loss in quality. Heck, 1 out of 4 of all US cell subscribers currently have LTE data, and that's expected to rise to 3 out of 4 cell subscribers within the next 3-years. Even the New York Times says that LTE data speeds are "enough for smooth streaming for live video and better response times for online multiplayer games. "

Even Microsoft's "cloud" rendering for the XB1 only needs 1.5Mbps to function, which if I had to, I know my LTE data could hold up to that standard.

Face it, not only have I proved that "unobtanium" phones exist, but I proved my claim with a screenshot of multiple data transfers w/ high pings, and additionally sourced my data from two well known sources. You, on the other-hand, have just spouted contrarian bullshiat and haven't sourced a single opinion.


Dude, you're weird.  No one else has that much internet that fast (except Silicon Valley where the slowest stuff they offer is 25Mbps), except occasionally at extortionate prices

The cheapest fast internet they offered in MI was Comcast business-class (12 Mbps for $60/month with no throttling and no caps).  Since my hometown was a Time Warner monopoly, things were even worse there, where getting 6 Mbps was $50.  It's not bad (though given the average income, $60/month for internet was a HARD sell, and I once had internet go down for 3 weeks while Time Warner laughed at us and refused to send a guy out).  It's just not good enough to support streaming video AND the XBOX connection, which is a fairly common use case.

/Oh hey, you're in Seattle.
//Oh hey, MSFT is also in Seattle (and their programmers are all rich and can afford expensive fast internet).
///Oh hey, I wonder if that's why MSFT farked the always-on connection up.
 
2013-06-20 01:31:05 PM

yukichigai: I called your 9mbps claim bullshiat and said it could maybe manage 9mbps burst, not sustained. You responded by posting results of a speed test, which measures burst speed. Then you went off on a tangent about some 10mbps connection requirement I supposedly talked about and gave two links refuting something I never said.

Your phone is not unobtanium, it's like every other phone: it can handle bursts of high speed traffic, then will inevitably choke when trying to sustain speed because either the cell tower or the connection itself gets oversaturated. When that happens the bandwidth doesn't just drop, your latency gets sporadic as hell. Which, like I said, makes it useless for online gaming.

And since you care about sources, source: anyone who's tried to play an online FPS over a tethered phone connection ever.


Well, if you can conjure up a way for me to benchmark my sustained transfer speeds, I'd love to prove you wrong.

/also, if you notice, my "burst" tests were with only 3 out of 5 bars of cell reception.
 
2013-06-20 01:41:09 PM

MrSteve007: yukichigai: I called your 9mbps claim bullshiat and said it could maybe manage 9mbps burst, not sustained. You responded by posting results of a speed test, which measures burst speed. Then you went off on a tangent about some 10mbps connection requirement I supposedly talked about and gave two links refuting something I never said.

Your phone is not unobtanium, it's like every other phone: it can handle bursts of high speed traffic, then will inevitably choke when trying to sustain speed because either the cell tower or the connection itself gets oversaturated. When that happens the bandwidth doesn't just drop, your latency gets sporadic as hell. Which, like I said, makes it useless for online gaming.

And since you care about sources, source: anyone who's tried to play an online FPS over a tethered phone connection ever.

Well, if you can conjure up a way for me to benchmark my sustained transfer speeds, I'd love to prove you wrong.

/also, if you notice, my "burst" tests were with only 3 out of 5 bars of cell reception.


Honestly, torrent a Linux ISO.  You're unlikely to be torrent-side limited, so just take (size of ISO/time of download) and that's your speed.
 
2013-06-20 01:43:14 PM
Little piece of electrical tape will solve a multitude of problems.

Every one use scotch tape, All those blurry pictures will have them freaking over a bunch of "bad cameras".

Easy set up for cheap entertainment.
 
2013-06-20 01:43:54 PM

yukichigai: If Microsoft wants that they can use some of their obscene wealth to lobby congress to make the telcos actually upgrade everyone to broadband like they were supposed to twenty-fark years ago.


Finally some farking sense in this thread.
 
2013-06-20 01:46:39 PM

ShamanGator: Little piece of electrical tape will solve a multitude of problems.

Every one use scotch tape, All those blurry pictures will have them freaking over a bunch of "bad cameras".

Easy set up for cheap entertainment.


Pfft, I will just smear some Vasoline on it...since I will already have it handy

/what?  I have dry skin!
 
2013-06-20 01:57:10 PM

meyerkev: Dude, you're weird. No one else has that much internet that fast (except Silicon Valley where the slowest stuff they offer is 25Mbps), except occasionally at extortionate prices

The cheapest fast internet they offered in MI was Comcast business-class (12 Mbps for $60/month with no throttling and no caps). Since my hometown was a Time Warner monopoly, things were even worse there, where getting 6 Mbps was $50. It's not bad (though given the average income, $60/month for internet was a HARD sell, and I once had internet go down for 3 weeks while Time Warner laughed at us and refused to send a guy out). It's just not good enough to support streaming video AND the XBOX connection, which is a fairly common use case.


Currently I pay $39 a month for 20mb DSL at home (although I could pay $65 for 40Mbps) through Centurylink. I typically switch every 12 months between Comcast cable and Centurylink, to get their 12-month cheap offers.

Looks like on Comcast, I could go for 20Mbps for $29 a month, 50 Mbps for $75 or 105Mbps for $115 a month right now. Clearwire offers similar speeds to my cell phone (WiMax/LTE), for about $35 a month, month-to-month.

I live about an hour south of the Seattle, in the county, outside of a town of 6,800 people. This is the density of my neighborhood, where daffodils outnumber people about 1,000 to one:
img.fark.net

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-20 02:11:22 PM

JohnnyC: omeganuepsilon: I'm not paranoid, but I don't want to have it staring at me, or to have to talk to it to make my xbox function.

You doesn't have to stare at you and you don't have to talk to it. See my reply to FlashHarry.


But it's still a mandatory accessory.  AKA a huge load of bullshiat.  Bundling it in was unnecessary and raised the cost.  Kinect isn't as big of a selling point as they'd like to think.  Sure, a lot of them sold really big on the 360, and right now a lot of them get used for one thing, gathering dust. A very large number of people who did buy one simply aren't interested in the next gen of the same shovelware for it.

It was a gimmick.  Sure, cool from a technical standpoint, but craptastic for any real gaming.  Forcing it into the home at all is pointless, tying functionality to it is more-so. When they 180 again and offer the box for cheaper and without it, then get back to me.  Until then, you can suck a big fat one.
 
2013-06-20 02:28:54 PM

omeganuepsilon: It was a gimmick.  Sure, cool from a technical standpoint, but craptastic for any real gaming.  Forcing it into the home at all is pointless, tying functionality to it is more-so.


I think it's use in games like Forza 4 was incredibly good (head tracking that allowed you to look into the corners). Some of the other kinect based games are really quite good as well. My wife and kids like it too. I think you have some really strong opinions, but they aren't founded from a objective point of view... just your narrow view which you seem unable to see beyond.

Making it mandatory means that all developers can consider it an option in their development process. Previously it was something that only some people had, not all. So developers sometimes would pass on features they could have added which would have used the Kinect because not everyone would have one. That means the feature couldn't be an integral part of the game. Now, with all XB1 systems having it, they can make those features an integral part of their games.

Of course, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to explain it to you. You're likely going to stomp your feet and spew more invectives. Good luck with that.
 
2013-06-20 02:39:26 PM

meyerkev: MrSteve007: yukichigai: I called your 9mbps claim bullshiat and said it could maybe manage 9mbps burst, not sustained. You responded by posting results of a speed test, which measures burst speed. Then you went off on a tangent about some 10mbps connection requirement I supposedly talked about and gave two links refuting something I never said.

Your phone is not unobtanium, it's like every other phone: it can handle bursts of high speed traffic, then will inevitably choke when trying to sustain speed because either the cell tower or the connection itself gets oversaturated. When that happens the bandwidth doesn't just drop, your latency gets sporadic as hell. Which, like I said, makes it useless for online gaming.

And since you care about sources, source: anyone who's tried to play an online FPS over a tethered phone connection ever.

Well, if you can conjure up a way for me to benchmark my sustained transfer speeds, I'd love to prove you wrong.

/also, if you notice, my "burst" tests were with only 3 out of 5 bars of cell reception.

Honestly, torrent a Linux ISO.  You're unlikely to be torrent-side limited, so just take (size of ISO/time of download) and that's your speed.


Good call. Downloaded on my phone Ubuntu 12.04.2 (64 bit), 695 megs. Time: 6 minutes, 47 seconds.

So if my math is right, my sustained transfer speeds on my phone is about 1.7Mbps - which is more than enough to play any online game. Especially with a sub-100ms ping.
 
2013-06-20 02:51:05 PM

MrSteve007: So if my math is right, my sustained transfer speeds on my phone is about 1.7Mbps - which is more than enough to play any online game. Especially with a sub-100ms ping.


Heh, looks like my math was wrong - at least according to an online transfer calculator. Looks like it sustained somewhere around 13Mbps and 16Mbps.

yukichigai- You're welcome to admit you're wrong now. If you really want to drive the point home and don't believe me, I could make a 6 minute video of the file transfer - but it sure would a boring video.
img.fark.net
/this screen cap from from my first attempt with the 32-bit software. I was pulled away from my desk before it finished so I didn't have a good time. I did it again with the 64-bit version.
 
2013-06-20 02:51:48 PM

JohnnyC: omeganuepsilon: It was a gimmick.  Sure, cool from a technical standpoint, but craptastic for any real gaming.  Forcing it into the home at all is pointless, tying functionality to it is more-so.

I think it's use in games like Forza 4 was incredibly good (head tracking that allowed you to look into the corners). Some of the other kinect based games are really quite good as well. My wife and kids like it too. I think you have some really strong opinions, but they aren't founded from a objective point of view... just your narrow view which you seem unable to see beyond.

Making it mandatory means that all developers can consider it an option in their development process. Previously it was something that only some people had, not all. So developers sometimes would pass on features they could have added which would have used the Kinect because not everyone would have one. That means the feature couldn't be an integral part of the game. Now, with all XB1 systems having it, they can make those features an integral part of their games.

Of course, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to explain it to you. You're likely going to stomp your feet and spew more invectives. Good luck with that.


Developers don't really make games for just xbox one anymore though. They make them for consoles and PC. They aren't going to put much work into Kinect because PS4 doesn't have them and less so considering PC doesn't either. Sure some first party games and exclusives will use it but those are th minority and not worth the surcharge in my opinion.
 
2013-06-20 02:54:49 PM
Uh.. this is M$.  They designed the Domain_Awareness_System .  They've patented a camera that senses heartbeats for consumers.  Do you really think they wont implement their glorified installation discs in year 2 or 3?  The fact that they ARE big brother should drive any respecting adult into sony's arms.  Vote with your wallets.  Privacy or GTFO.
 
2013-06-20 02:55:08 PM

Super_pope: In the first instance, I literally lose nothing by continuing to play, and I gain a substantial benefit from the rest.  In the second, I literally gain nothing, and if I continue trying to play my productivity declines sharply.  I don't know how you interpret the first scenario as "getting screwed."


In the traditional scenario you are paid XP based on your work, regardless of time invested.  Offline hours are not "rewarded".  There was no habituation system in the mechanics to pace your progress.  You play as much or as little as you desire and the time is as productive as you make it.

Saying "you get double XP for the first hour" is effectivelythe same as saying "you get half XP after the first hour". The system is scaled to discourage extended play sessions and penalize people who share characters or mill points.

Rejecting one and supporting the other means you only objected to the name, not the method.
 
2013-06-20 02:58:07 PM

MrSteve007: You're welcome to admit you're wrong now.


Why would he need to do that? even if you're telling the truth, you're an extreme outlier.
 
2013-06-20 03:19:39 PM
MrSteve007:

It should function like that . . . but I assume you have a HDMI cord running from that closet to your TV. Just snake the Kinect cord along the same route and mount it below the TV. The voice control is actually pretty nice when watching Netflix, especially when your hands are all greasy from popcorn. If you're afraid of the camera, just put some tape over it.

I actually have the HDMI running from that closet out to a ceiling mounted projector, so to try and have it run in-wall to the front of the room where the screen is will probably require some type of USB repeater, plus a way to have it "sit" somewhere since I don't want it sitting on my center channel.   So it's easier for me to just leave it hooked up in the closet (assuming that will work), buttery fingers be damned. lol
 
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