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(KTAR Phoenix)   The Lakota tongue is officially a dead language   (ktar.com) divider line 21
    More: Sad, Lakota, dead languages, Lakota language, tongues, St. Francis  
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9340 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jun 2013 at 10:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-19 10:40:35 AM  
4 votes:

hasty ambush: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

And why don't we insist that  at least law go to plain language (other than  putting more lawyers out of work)

THE PLAIN ENGLISH MOVEMENT

The premise behind the plain English movement is that legal documents ought to be plainer--and more comprehensible--to the average person. It's probably fair to say that the modern movement began in the 1970s. But people have objected to the obscurity of lawyer's language for many centuries.


As a layperson who reads hundreds of contracts and agreements per year, I can tell you this is a bad idea. It's not so much that legal language is complex, it's that non-lawyers hardly ever have to deal with it, so they're not used to it. That, and most people do not have a proper understanding of grammar. Learn a little bit of German and any Latin-derived language, or Latin itself, and your comprehension of legal documents will become very clear once you understand the underpinnings of English grammar.

Legal language *is* plain language, but it must be very specific and non-ambiguous for contracts to have any meaning. The last thing you want is a contract whose terms could go either way because the wording is not specific enough. From my point of view, someone arguing about the complexity of legal language is no different than a layperson complaining that all computer programs should be written so that they're easy enough for everyone to understand. No. Upgrade *your* reading an comprehension skills instead of forcing people to dumb things down.
2013-06-19 09:07:16 AM  
3 votes:
If you want to talk about dead languages, try Manchurian instead of Lakota. There are still about 6000 Lakota speakers and they can teach the younger generation if they choose to. There's less than a dozen Manchurian speakers now, which is interesting because it was the imperial language of the Qing dynasty of China only 100 years prior.
2013-06-19 10:31:19 AM  
2 votes:

BFletch651: This process will continue.  In 100 years nearly all the native languages in the Americas will be extinct.


I agree with the first part, but not the second.  There are areas of South America where indigenous languages are spoken pretty much exclusively.  In North America, at the very least Cherokee and Navajo aren't going away, but indeed many more will die off, just not ALL.
2013-06-19 10:24:31 AM  
2 votes:
Heading back to the Rosebud reservation to bury my brother in a few weeks. First time I've been back in a couple of years, when I went to bury my parents. Every time I go back, I try to learn a little more Lakota from my maternal relatives. It gets rusty with no one else around me to speak it to.
2013-06-19 09:34:50 AM  
2 votes:

RexTalionis: If you want to talk about dead languages, try Manchurian instead of Lakota. There are still about 6000 Lakota speakers and they can teach the younger generation if they choose to. There's less than a dozen Manchurian speakers now, which is interesting because it was the imperial language of the Qing dynasty of China only 100 years prior.


Languages can be brought back.  Hebrew was pretty much dead until it was revived as the national language of Israel.

Also, seems like as good a thread as any to mention my favorite native American, Sequoyah.  A silversmith by trade, he noticed European colonists communicating by writing and thought "Wow, that would be useful.  I think I'll invent that for us", and single handedly invented the Cherokee written language.  That's some gumption right there, and may have saved his language.
2013-06-19 01:44:06 AM  
2 votes:
May I be the first to say..

Qa'Pla' Warriors beware! For here comes a warrior to Stov'O'Kor!!!

But seriously, has a sad :(
2013-06-19 03:18:19 PM  
1 votes:

Hollie Maea: nekom: Languages can be brought back.

Only if they have a written history.  There are plenty of unwritten extinct languages that can never come back.


Hell, there's a few written ones that aren't going to be coming back anytime soon--whatever they spoke in Mohenjo Daro; the Olmec language (we have some clues as to possible descendants but we can't yet claim to reliably read Olmec); really ancient Minoan/Eteocretan (which used a language that was a non-Indo-European tongue of uncertain ancestry--we can't read the oldest scripts like Linear A and we really have only a partial understanding of MOST pre-Greek scripts at best); early Rapanui (we still can't read Rongorongo, which is pretty much the only record of Old Rapanui before it became essentially creoled with the related Tahitian); Khitan (which had a family of large and small logogrammic scripts, similarly to hanzi/hanja/kanji--as there are no rhyme tables or syllabic transcriptions or even a "Rosetta Stone" equivalent the spoken language is probably permanently lost; at best, we can make an EDUCATED guess it was related to an ancestor of Mongolic languages) AND its descendant Jurchen (we can at least say THIS is a Mongolic language as it's directly ancestral to Manchurian, but the original Jurchen script used before they went to Manchu script is only partially readable--most of what we know of Jurchen stems from the language written in Manchu script); Elamite (we can KINDAsorta read it thanks to some bilingual transcriptions, but there's not enough of it written for us to ever recover it); whatever was written in the Southwest Paleohispanic (in Spain) language (it's KINDAsorta similar to other scripts but there are a number of symbols where researchers can't agree on sound values--complicating this is the fact that most of the old Paleohispanic scripts were semi-syllabaries recording languages in a family of which Basque is the sole survivor); Zapotec (which has a very similar problem to a lot of dead east Asian languages in that it was written entirely in a Mayan-like script for which no "rhyme tables"--a table giving both phonetic and logogrammic values--exist (we DO for the most part have "rhyme tables" for Classical Maya); whilst there are MANY descendants of Old Zapotec any hope of reading may rely on reconstruction of early Zapotec similarly to reconstruction of Indo-European); and whatever languages were written in the Takalik Abaj and Kaminaljuyu scripts (PROBABLY something Mixe-Zoquean but we can't be more sure than that, and the only bits we can read are logograms similar to those in Classical Mayan writing--and still no rhyme tables).

Hell, we really don't have a GOOD idea what most early Asian languages were like including really old Japanese or Korean (until hiragana and katakana were invented in Japan and hangeul in Korea, all we had were approximations from rhyme tables from kanji/hanja written in Chinese logograms; this has made sussing out old Chinese and the Korean language before Middle Korean difficult as well as oldest Japanese)--pretty much anything primarily written in an ideographic script is in the exact same boat.

There's a number of dead languages where we can read them, largely understand them, but their actual reconstruction is "iffy"--Sumerian is a classical example of this.  (It's a language isolate--not related to any living or deciphered dead language.  It has a mess of homophones (which are denoted by different cuneiform glyphs) which could well hint at a tonal language--unfortunately, those tones never got recorded, as the Sumerian script was largely translated via "Rosetta Stone" writings in Akkadian and Old Persian (Sumerian was still used as a liturgical language up to the first century AD, much as Latin and Aramaic are used in some Christian churches now) and neither of those languages have tonal distinctions.  We generally differentiate the different "flavours" of "du", etc. by putting a subscript below the syllable in question.  Realistically, reading modern transliterated Sumerian is probably akin to reading transliterated Chinese without tone markings.

And there is even a case of an extant language that lost its original writing system that is undeciphered--Tuija had a writing system lost in ancient times, and its only surviving record is a very old book with glosses in Chinese.  (Unfortunately, the glosses are solely translations, not rhyme tables, so unlike even Old Court Korean it cannot be approximated.)
2013-06-19 12:58:54 PM  
1 votes:

nekom: Languages can be brought back.


Only if they have a written history.  There are plenty of unwritten extinct languages that can never come back.
2013-06-19 12:32:26 PM  
1 votes:

BFletch651: This process will continue.  In 100 years nearly all the native languages in the Americas will be extinct.


Some of the languages are growing.  Kids are taking Tribal language classes in public schools.
2013-06-19 12:29:29 PM  
1 votes:
Aho mitakuye oyasin
2013-06-19 12:24:52 PM  
1 votes:
I just saw him last night in a documentary about the old west on Netflix! RIP sir, may the great spririt welcome you home.
2013-06-19 11:29:32 AM  
1 votes:
Headline: Lakota is officially dead.

Article: 0.017% of Lakota speakers died.

/I though Lakota was a black girl's name
2013-06-19 11:00:43 AM  
1 votes:
i.ytimg.com

/Never got any Lakota tongue.
2013-06-19 10:30:14 AM  
1 votes:
Tóhaŋni waŋžíla iyápi iyóhi sni
2013-06-19 10:27:21 AM  
1 votes:
Bull!

My tongue is still as nimble and talented as ever.

;)

/Lakota '91
2013-06-19 10:24:08 AM  
1 votes:
I understand that anything dead is saddening, but if Lakota were culturally or historically important, wouldn't one of his seven children pick up where dad left off?  Perhaps this is simply the path of least resistance, that English is easier and more practical.  Language is normally about clear and efficient communication between peoples; if it were about aesthetics, all Fark posts would rhyme in iambic pentameter.
2013-06-19 10:18:27 AM  
1 votes:
I was talking to one of my Lakota students and he basically said the most hate Indians get is from other Indians. That said, one way to integrate yourself with the tribe is to start speaking Lakota. He actually knows it and like to fark with assholes who challenge him on his "Indian-ness".
2013-06-19 09:04:20 AM  
1 votes:
Well, not quite dead, but much closer now.  It's not that language that is only spoken by two people who hate each other and refuse to talk to each other.
2013-06-19 08:59:09 AM  
1 votes:

dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?


Well, unlike Lakota, Latin is the primary base for three of the most important languages on the planet for business (Spanish, French, Italian), as well as being a significant base for the second largest business language (English).

That said, I'd rather kids take German or Mandarin than Latin.
2013-06-19 08:56:47 AM  
1 votes:

dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?



People called Romanes, they go, the house?
2013-06-19 08:38:06 AM  
1 votes:
Sad. I actually met Albert White Hat a long time ago on the Rosebud reservation. He was a pretty amazing guy.
 
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