If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(KTAR Phoenix)   The Lakota tongue is officially a dead language   (ktar.com) divider line 94
    More: Sad, Lakota, dead languages, Lakota language, tongues, St. Francis  
•       •       •

9331 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jun 2013 at 10:14 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



94 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-06-19 12:32:26 PM

BFletch651: This process will continue.  In 100 years nearly all the native languages in the Americas will be extinct.


Some of the languages are growing.  Kids are taking Tribal language classes in public schools.
 
2013-06-19 12:34:29 PM
Hebalo: Nonsense. Latin teaches you the roots and origins of a great deal of English, and (as has been mentioned) helps with comprehension of other Romance languages as well.

Of course Latin helps with the comprehension of other Romance languages, just not much. Knowing how to read, write and speak a modern Romance language will help you learn an other Romance language far more than Latin will. If your goal is to learn a modern Romance language just learn that language and skip the Latin.

And if Latin really taught you so much about the roots and origins of English surely you can tell me the most important thing you learned about English from Latin.
 
2013-06-19 12:35:29 PM

feckingmorons: I had Lakota tongue once, I had to take Ampicillin for a week.


It probably wasn't cooked properly. When preparing Lakota tongue, you should reach a temperature of 350 degrees for 15 minutes.
 
2013-06-19 12:35:29 PM
If they really want to save the language all they have to do is require that all text on any alcohol sold on the Res is in that language.
 
2013-06-19 12:36:23 PM

orbister: Headline: Lakota is officially dead.

Article: 0.017% of Lakota speakers died.

/I though Lakota was a black girl's name


Stripper name. Along with Dakota.
 
2013-06-19 12:43:20 PM

RexTalionis: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

It doesn't do jack squat for you in law.


Indeed. You need memorize "subpoena duces tecum" only once.
 
2013-06-19 12:51:44 PM
How do you scream in agony in Lakota?
img.fark.net
 
2013-06-19 12:53:38 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: orbister: Headline: Lakota is officially dead.

Article: 0.017% of Lakota speakers died.

/I though Lakota was a black girl's name

Stripper name. Along with Dakota.


i208.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-19 12:55:17 PM
Did subby even read the article???
 
2013-06-19 12:56:01 PM

MBooda: How do you scream in agony in Lakota?


Sun ceremony, as depicted by the movie "A Man Called Horse." Ow ow ow ow...

/Shunka wakan

Akbar the Trappiste Monk: Subby needs a word with Julius.


Lakota, motherfarker! Do you speak it?
 
2013-06-19 12:56:36 PM
Every language except English should be encouraged to die out.  Think of it as an attainable version of Esperanto.
 
2013-06-19 12:58:54 PM

nekom: Languages can be brought back.


Only if they have a written history.  There are plenty of unwritten extinct languages that can never come back.
 
2013-06-19 01:04:34 PM
img.fark.net

Approves.  Still dead
 
2013-06-19 01:05:57 PM

fickenchucker: Every language except English should be encouraged to die out.


How are you going to make it with those French babes or Swedish babes. Some other guy will have been learning some phrases.

and Italians would not be caught speaking English, either, even if they don't know any other languages.
jerseyshore.jpg
 
2013-06-19 01:09:47 PM

dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?



you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, or your an idiot. that's your options
 
2013-06-19 01:22:45 PM
Well, now that we have established the fact that the language is not actually dead, how is it actually doing in the scheme of things?

http://www.ethnologue.com/cloud/lkt

/Cool Chart, Bro.
//Say what you will, but those SIL people know languages.
 
2013-06-19 01:48:06 PM

Rude Turnip: hasty ambush: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

And why don't we insist that  at least law go to plain language (other than  putting more lawyers out of work)

THE PLAIN ENGLISH MOVEMENT

The premise behind the plain English movement is that legal documents ought to be plainer--and more comprehensible--to the average person. It's probably fair to say that the modern movement began in the 1970s. But people have objected to the obscurity of lawyer's language for many centuries.

As a layperson who reads hundreds of contracts and agreements per year, I can tell you this is a bad idea. It's not so much that legal language is complex, it's that non-lawyers hardly ever have to deal with it, so they're not used to it. That, and most people do not have a proper any understanding of grammar. Learn a little bit of German and any Latin-derived language, or Latin itself, and your comprehension of legal documents will become very clear once you understand the underpinnings of English grammar.


FTFM

Legal language *is* plain language, but it must be very specific and non-ambiguous for contracts to have any meaning. The last thing you want is a contract whose terms could go either way because the wording is not specific enough. From my point of view, someone arguing about the complexity of legal language is no different than a layperson complaining that all computer programs should be written so that they're easy enough for everyone to understand. No. Upgrade *your* reading an comprehension skills instead of forcing people to dumb things down.

SO MUCH THIS.

nekom: RexTalionis: If you want to talk about dead languages, try Manchurian instead of Lakota. There are still about 6000 Lakota speakers and they can teach the younger generation if they choose to. There's less than a dozen Manchurian speakers now, which is interesting because it was the imperial language of the Qing dynasty of China only 100 years prior.

Languages can be brought back.  Hebrew was pretty much dead until it was revived as the national language of Israel.

Also, seems like as good a thread as any to mention my favorite native American, Sequoyah.  A silversmith by trade, he noticed European colonists communicating by writing and thought "Wow, that would be useful.  I think I'll invent that for us", and single handedly invented the Cherokee written language.  That's some gumption right there, and may have saved his language.


It's more than gumption; it's genius.

aprentic: if you want to increase your English vocabulary you are much better served just learning English words (perhaps by reading English texts).


You know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about?
 
2013-06-19 01:50:38 PM

aprentic: Hebalo: Nonsense. Latin teaches you the roots and origins of a great deal of English, and (as has been mentioned) helps with comprehension of other Romance languages as well.

Of course Latin helps with the comprehension of other Romance languages, just not much. Knowing how to read, write and speak a modern Romance language will help you learn an other Romance language far more than Latin will. If your goal is to learn a modern Romance language just learn that language and skip the Latin.

And if Latin really taught you so much about the roots and origins of English surely you can tell me the most important thing you learned about English from Latin.


Well... I learned to never split infinitives.
 
2013-06-19 01:52:21 PM

RexTalionis: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

It doesn't do jack squat for you in law.


Nolo contendere.
 
2013-06-19 01:56:42 PM
Heh. The only Indian tongue America ever cared about is attached to Hyapatia Lee and DON'T do a GIS for her at work.
 
2013-06-19 01:57:39 PM

Do the needful: RexTalionis: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

It doesn't do jack squat for you in law.

Nolo contendere.


German is better for reading comprehension in law. The structure of German is uncomfortably like legalese, imo.
 
2013-06-19 02:08:15 PM

zamboni: aprentic: Hebalo: Nonsense. Latin teaches you the roots and origins of a great deal of English, and (as has been mentioned) helps with comprehension of other Romance languages as well.

Of course Latin helps with the comprehension of other Romance languages, just not much. Knowing how to read, write and speak a modern Romance language will help you learn an other Romance language far more than Latin will. If your goal is to learn a modern Romance language just learn that language and skip the Latin.

And if Latin really taught you so much about the roots and origins of English surely you can tell me the most important thing you learned about English from Latin.

Well... I learned to never split infinitives.


Nice one.
 
2013-06-19 02:16:56 PM

LibertyHiller: It's more than gumption; it's genius.


Perhaps so.  I'm not aware of another human in history who single handedly invented written language in their own lifetime.  I have no native blood, but I would guess the Cherokee people are quite proud of him.  Pretty badass story for sure.
 
2013-06-19 02:25:35 PM

RexTalionis: stuhayes2010: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it'll help you in medicine and law or something.

It doesn't do jack squat for you in law.


I've found that majority of fancy medical (and science) words come from ancient Greek
 
2013-06-19 02:28:52 PM

MaliFinn: BFletch651: This process will continue.  In 100 years nearly all the native languages in the Americas will be extinct.

Some of the languages are growing.  Kids are taking Tribal language classes in public schools.


And some are going even further than this--in the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (the ones who DIDN'T get the hell ethnically cleansed to Oklahoma), there's actually a program (rather similar to ECE and Head Start but run by the tribal government) that has babies and toddlers and their parents all come in...specifically to learn Cherokee (the babbies learn it like babbies learn any language, the parents learn it a bit more conventionally--Cherokee as a Second Language wasn't really instituted in tribal schools till the late 80s so there is a significant percentage of parents who don't speak the language natively).

The idea is that the parents will speak Cherokee extensively to the kids in the home as well as in "mom and kid" classes, the kids will grow up naturally multilingual in Cherokee and English (just like, oh, a kid raised in a home with both Spanish and English speakers can learn both languages natively) and then they'll speak in Cherokee to THEIR kids.

(And this is itself based on a program that's done in a few other First Nations with endangered languages--I'd be kind of surprised if there wasn't a program like that in place for Lakota, to be honest.)
 
2013-06-19 02:48:29 PM
I thought it died in 2007.
www.ya-native.com

Guess selling out 3,000 years of heritage didn't help, after all.
 
2013-06-19 02:56:16 PM

Great Porn Dragon: MaliFinn: BFletch651: This process will continue.  In 100 years nearly all the native languages in the Americas will be extinct.

Some of the languages are growing.  Kids are taking Tribal language classes in public schools.

And some are going even further than this--in the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (the ones who DIDN'T get the hell ethnically cleansed to Oklahoma), there's actually a program (rather similar to ECE and Head Start but run by the tribal government) that has babies and toddlers and their parents all come in...specifically to learn Cherokee (the babbies learn it like babbies learn any language, the parents learn it a bit more conventionally--Cherokee as a Second Language wasn't really instituted in tribal schools till the late 80s so there is a significant percentage of parents who don't speak the language natively).

The idea is that the parents will speak Cherokee extensively to the kids in the home as well as in "mom and kid" classes, the kids will grow up naturally multilingual in Cherokee and English (just like, oh, a kid raised in a home with both Spanish and English speakers can learn both languages natively) and then they'll speak in Cherokee to THEIR kids.

(And this is itself based on a program that's done in a few other First Nations with endangered languages--I'd be kind of surprised if there wasn't a program like that in place for Lakota, to be honest.)


My parents did that with Southern. They rarely spoke english at home. So now I'm bilingual.
 
2013-06-19 02:59:18 PM

nekom: I'm not aware of another human in history who single handedly invented written language in their own lifetime.


Solomona Kante
But yeah...pretty badass.

 
2013-06-19 03:06:39 PM

feckingmorons: I had Lakota tongue once, I had to take Ampicillin for a week.


Okay, that was funny.  No SARS Blanket for you.  But I'm Kiowa, and therefore, not offended.
 
2013-06-19 03:18:19 PM

Hollie Maea: nekom: Languages can be brought back.

Only if they have a written history.  There are plenty of unwritten extinct languages that can never come back.


Hell, there's a few written ones that aren't going to be coming back anytime soon--whatever they spoke in Mohenjo Daro; the Olmec language (we have some clues as to possible descendants but we can't yet claim to reliably read Olmec); really ancient Minoan/Eteocretan (which used a language that was a non-Indo-European tongue of uncertain ancestry--we can't read the oldest scripts like Linear A and we really have only a partial understanding of MOST pre-Greek scripts at best); early Rapanui (we still can't read Rongorongo, which is pretty much the only record of Old Rapanui before it became essentially creoled with the related Tahitian); Khitan (which had a family of large and small logogrammic scripts, similarly to hanzi/hanja/kanji--as there are no rhyme tables or syllabic transcriptions or even a "Rosetta Stone" equivalent the spoken language is probably permanently lost; at best, we can make an EDUCATED guess it was related to an ancestor of Mongolic languages) AND its descendant Jurchen (we can at least say THIS is a Mongolic language as it's directly ancestral to Manchurian, but the original Jurchen script used before they went to Manchu script is only partially readable--most of what we know of Jurchen stems from the language written in Manchu script); Elamite (we can KINDAsorta read it thanks to some bilingual transcriptions, but there's not enough of it written for us to ever recover it); whatever was written in the Southwest Paleohispanic (in Spain) language (it's KINDAsorta similar to other scripts but there are a number of symbols where researchers can't agree on sound values--complicating this is the fact that most of the old Paleohispanic scripts were semi-syllabaries recording languages in a family of which Basque is the sole survivor); Zapotec (which has a very similar problem to a lot of dead east Asian languages in that it was written entirely in a Mayan-like script for which no "rhyme tables"--a table giving both phonetic and logogrammic values--exist (we DO for the most part have "rhyme tables" for Classical Maya); whilst there are MANY descendants of Old Zapotec any hope of reading may rely on reconstruction of early Zapotec similarly to reconstruction of Indo-European); and whatever languages were written in the Takalik Abaj and Kaminaljuyu scripts (PROBABLY something Mixe-Zoquean but we can't be more sure than that, and the only bits we can read are logograms similar to those in Classical Mayan writing--and still no rhyme tables).

Hell, we really don't have a GOOD idea what most early Asian languages were like including really old Japanese or Korean (until hiragana and katakana were invented in Japan and hangeul in Korea, all we had were approximations from rhyme tables from kanji/hanja written in Chinese logograms; this has made sussing out old Chinese and the Korean language before Middle Korean difficult as well as oldest Japanese)--pretty much anything primarily written in an ideographic script is in the exact same boat.

There's a number of dead languages where we can read them, largely understand them, but their actual reconstruction is "iffy"--Sumerian is a classical example of this.  (It's a language isolate--not related to any living or deciphered dead language.  It has a mess of homophones (which are denoted by different cuneiform glyphs) which could well hint at a tonal language--unfortunately, those tones never got recorded, as the Sumerian script was largely translated via "Rosetta Stone" writings in Akkadian and Old Persian (Sumerian was still used as a liturgical language up to the first century AD, much as Latin and Aramaic are used in some Christian churches now) and neither of those languages have tonal distinctions.  We generally differentiate the different "flavours" of "du", etc. by putting a subscript below the syllable in question.  Realistically, reading modern transliterated Sumerian is probably akin to reading transliterated Chinese without tone markings.

And there is even a case of an extant language that lost its original writing system that is undeciphered--Tuija had a writing system lost in ancient times, and its only surviving record is a very old book with glosses in Chinese.  (Unfortunately, the glosses are solely translations, not rhyme tables, so unlike even Old Court Korean it cannot be approximated.)
 
2013-06-19 03:42:50 PM

Hollie Maea: nekom: I'm not aware of another human in history who single handedly invented written language in their own lifetime.

Solomona Kante
But yeah...pretty badass.


In truth, there are a few--but few enough that they can be counted really on one hand, MAYBE two:

Sikwayi/Sequoyah (inventor of Cherokee syllabary, and it probably saved a fair amount of the traditional lore, at that)
Sejong the Great of Korea (singlehandedly invented hangeul, possibly first writing system explicitly developed as a phonetic writing system)
St. Meshrop Mashtots (inventor of Armenian script and the three Georgian scripts, may be earliest single person credited with invention of scripts--of note, there is evidence pre-Christian scripts existed for both languages and were essentially purged during Christianisation of Armenia and Georgia)
Solomona Kante (inventor of N'ko script)
Afáka Atumisi (inventor of Afaka syllabary for Ndyuka, a language derived from Surinamese Creole)
Abdurahman Sheikh Nuur (inventor of Gadabuursi script, used for writing Somali--there are at least six different scripts used for writing the Somali language)
Hussein Sheikh Ahmed Kaddare (inventor of Kaddare script, used for writing Somali--there are at least six different scripts used for writing the Somali language)
Osman Yusuf Kenadid (inventor of Osmanya script, probably the best known non-Roman, non-Arabic writing system for Somali--there are at least six different scripts used for writing the Somali language)
Shong Lue Yang (inventor of Pahawh Hmong script; interestingly connected with an indigenous-culture-revivalist movement and claimed syllabary to be divine restoration of a lost (and untranslated) writing system among Hmong peoples--like Sequoyah, apparently completely illiterate, and some symbols seem to be "false friends" with Laotian glyphs similarly to some Roman characters being "false friends" with Cherokee syllabary symbols)

And yes, it is badass indeed :D
 
2013-06-19 03:48:52 PM

nekom: LibertyHiller: It's more than gumption; it's genius.

Perhaps so.  I'm not aware of another human in history who single handedly invented written language in their own lifetime.


Marc Okrand?

/img.fark.net
 
2013-06-19 03:52:51 PM

Great Porn Dragon: And yes, it is badass indeed :D


You seem to know a lot about languages....
 
2013-06-19 04:10:03 PM

Great Porn Dragon: The idea is that the parents will speak Cherokee extensively to the kids in the home as well as in "mom and kid" classes, the kids will grow up naturally multilingual in Cherokee and English (just like, oh, a kid raised in a home with both Spanish and English speakers can learn both languages natively) and then they'll speak in Cherokee to THEIR kids


There are programmes like that for Scottish Gaelic too. It's still dying out, though the people running courses in it are doing very nicely, thank you.
 
2013-06-19 04:12:42 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Realistically, reading modern transliterated Sumerian is probably akin to reading transliterated Chinese without tone markings.


I've always said so. It's a bummer, isn't it?
 
2013-06-19 04:17:51 PM
img.fark.net

Why don't he write?


/really, no one else posted this first?
 
2013-06-19 04:35:14 PM
Given that nothing is written down in Lakota anyway who gives a shiat?

Honestly, it's neat and all but other than an academic exercise it's not like we're losing any ability to study the Lakota people so what difference does it make?
 
2013-06-19 04:35:41 PM

Valiente: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Because it was the easiest 92% you could get?
Because you learn a lot more being one of six students in a class?
Because it allows you to read, but not necessarily pronounce, Portuguese, French, Italian and Spanish newspapers?
Because it improves your Scrabble score?

/Fecit est propter me.


Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
 
2013-06-19 05:13:03 PM

gravy chugging cretin.: Semper Ubi Sub Ubi



Sit Ubu, sit.
 
2013-06-19 05:13:18 PM
Crazy Horse is my great great great uncle.  

So being of Lakota descent, this makes me very sad.
 
2013-06-19 05:33:05 PM

fickenchucker: gravy chugging cretin.: Semper Ubi Sub Ubi


Sit Ubu, sit.


Good dog.
 
2013-06-19 10:24:33 PM

fickenchucker: gravy chugging cretin.: Semper Ubi Sub Ubi


Sit Ubu, sit.


You too, Roi.
 
2013-06-20 12:47:22 AM
LunchLady

Given that nothing is written down in Lakota anyway who gives a shiat?

Honestly, it's neat and all but other than an academic exercise it's not like we're losing any ability to study the Lakota people so what difference does it make?


Quite a bit, actually:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
 
2013-06-20 02:36:09 AM

Hebalo: aprentic: mattharvest: dickfreckle: Will someone remind me why I took Latin?

Well, unlike Lakota, Latin is the primary base for three of the most important languages on the planet for business (Spanish, French, Italian), as well as being a significant base for the second largest business language (English).

That's the reason I heard when I started taken Latin. Since then I've come to the conclusion that it's nonsense.

Latin is so far removed from either French, Spanish or Italian that it's far easier to just learn French, Spanish and Italian. Latin isn't taught as a spoken language either, you basically just learn how to read Latin. And you can't read anything less than a few thousand years old because you don't really learn how to write it either so nobody does it (Church Latin is a different language from what most Latin students learn).

Latin forms a tiny base for English and almost none of it is used in business. English is a Germanic language with a completely different grammatical structure. English borrows words from many languages but frequently changes them from the original so if you want to increase your English vocabulary you are much better served just learning English words (perhaps by reading English texts).

The main benefit to learning Latin is that it is a shibboleth. Let's say you come from an old money family and you want to let other people from old money families know this so you can hang out together and do rich people stuff. If you simply tell everyone that you have rich parents you just look like a douche. But if you can make the occasional joke in Latin or correctly use the occasional Latin phrase it sends a message that you probably went to a private school where they teach Latin. Other people won't get this. They'll just think your clever or nerdy. But other scions will understand and if you display enough additional shibboleths they will invite you to play golf with them.

Sadly, my parents aren't rich so I actually need to work for ...


Yeah, but you'd be better off just learning a living Romance language.
 
Displayed 44 of 94 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report