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(Bloomberg)   Good news: Your government job in an urban shiathole comes with a pension that you'll someday use to retire somewhere far away. Bad news: Your pension is being raided to keep the urban shiathole afloat   (bloomberg.com) divider line 114
    More: Scary, stimulus plan, Detroit, unsecured debt, Stockton, emergency managers, public sector, Vallejo, pensions  
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6529 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2013 at 11:27 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-18 11:30:53 AM
We should pay public employees as little as possible, because it's our tax dollars and they should want to do the job because they feel strongly about public service -not because it pays well.

Pensions? Private workers don't have those, why should a "public servant" have one, let alone a decent one?
 
2013-06-18 11:31:01 AM
I've got a friend who's retired here to NC on a Detroit city pension. I've wondered for years if it would eventually be cut. Looks like he may have to go back to work.
 
2013-06-18 11:31:11 AM
If you worked for Detroit, then you deserve to have your pension raided, as you never EARNED a damn thing.EVAR!
 
2013-06-18 11:31:22 AM
Yup. Detroit. Didn't even have to look.
 
2013-06-18 11:32:04 AM

Testiclaw: We should pay public employees as little as possible, because it's our tax dollars and they should want to do the job because they feel strongly about public service -not because it pays well.

Pensions? Private workers don't have those, why should a "public servant" have one, let alone a decent one?


Meh, 2/10. You're trying to conflate two different trolls.

/I work in the private sector
//and have a pension
 
2013-06-18 11:32:21 AM
That's gotta be detroit.

/hovers mouse over the link.

Yup.

/True story.
 
2013-06-18 11:33:19 AM
your pension paid for krugerrands, new Harleys for the hip hop mayor's entourage, free gas for city big wigs, and so on.

nobody really cared about Detroit.
 
2013-06-18 11:33:45 AM
For some reason I can't find a cares.
 
2013-06-18 11:33:49 AM

Carousel Beast: Meh, 2/10. You're trying to conflate two different trolls.

/I work in the private sector
//and have a pension


I think he's more being sarcastic / tongue-in-cheek than trolling.
 
2013-06-18 11:33:57 AM
So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?
 
2013-06-18 11:37:33 AM
In this day and age when we have proper 401Ks and 403Bs, there really isn't a need for pensions anymore. The retirement needs of employees are usually fulfilled through the judicious use of saving and investment and in catastrophic cases Social Security payments. Pensions are a holdover from the bad old days when one was expected to work until death or face the twilight years eating dry cat food and living in a hospice.

As a society we're beyond that now, and we really ought to make the tough decisions to eliminate such wasteful and redundant systems, especially when the money could be better used to pump life into a real economy.

I'm not saying we should eliminate the pensions retirees are enjoying today or eliminating the pension reserves employees today have saved up. But new employees should be outfitted with proper retirement accounts rather than ephemeral and easily raided pension accounts.
 
2013-06-18 11:40:07 AM

You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?


Every big city in Texas?
 
2013-06-18 11:41:42 AM

You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?


Atlanta, sure they have to cut, but they are not anywhere near bankrupt.

/ignoring the sewer system for  40 years certainly was an issue.
 
2013-06-18 11:42:03 AM

You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?


miami?
 
2013-06-18 11:44:23 AM
And the corrolary:

Fark: You deserve what you get for working in a government office.
 
2013-06-18 11:45:25 AM
boo hoo.

They officials and unions have gamed the system and squeezed it dry. fark 'em.
 
2013-06-18 11:46:11 AM
This is the city whose water department has their own horseshoer.
 
2013-06-18 11:47:16 AM
After they steal all of this to support their failed liberal shiathole, only thing left will be kids piggy banks....and they'll get those too.
 
2013-06-18 11:49:08 AM
In a country where 50% of the population thinks a race to the bottom is the best thing ever pensions for any middle class person are going to be a problem. Businesses will move away from areas that protect the middleclass in favor of states that want to bring back company stores.
 
2013-06-18 11:49:19 AM
Another Democrat run paradise.
 
2013-06-18 11:49:21 AM
I'm still not over being pissed about the DIA situation. I guess this is next on my list. Busy month of being pissed.
 
2013-06-18 11:50:21 AM
Pensions, Social Security, etc. should be replaced by tightly regulated defined contribution plans, not defined benefit plans that lead to problems like this and California's, where they've overpromised pensions and people game the system to get even bigger ones thanks to one or two years of lots of voluntary overtime. The funds should be invested in lifecycle-style funds, with no ability to borrow against (even for home purchase, hardship, etc). this is the money to make sure you can survive in retirement, not a fund to raid as needed. *Everyone* should have one; if you're married, filing jointly, some goes into your spouse's account (and your account is untouchable in a divorce) Not earning much? Just like social security, you get some gov't money to boost your contribution to a minimal amount to survive on.
 
2013-06-18 11:50:22 AM

YixilTesiphon: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

Every big city in Texas?


Houston is 51% white, Dallas is 50.7% white, San Antonio is 72.6% white.  All per the 2010 US Census.
 
2013-06-18 11:51:04 AM
Hi Canada. You guys want Detroit? It's due for a rebound. Call it North Windsow. the bill collectors will never find you. Chicks dig massive debt and social obligations. Just sayin'.
 
2013-06-18 11:51:15 AM

You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?


Right next to Detroit is Southfield, MI, which is over 70% African American and is doing just fine.
 
2013-06-18 11:51:34 AM
Nuke it from orbit and start over.

/I live 5 miles from Detroit, so I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-06-18 11:52:23 AM

RaiderFanMikeP: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

miami?


Over 70% white, per the 2010 US Census.
 
2013-06-18 11:54:08 AM

Headso: In a country where 50% of the population thinks a race to the bottom is the best thing ever pensions for any middle class person are going to be a problem. Businesses will move away from areas that protect the middleclass in favor of states that want to bring back company stores.


You have no idea at all about Detroit and its problems, do you?
 
2013-06-18 11:54:13 AM

meanmutton: YixilTesiphon: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

Every big city in Texas?

Houston is 51% white, Dallas is 50.7% white, San Antonio is 72.6% white.  All per the 2010 US Census.


I am pretty sure somebody asking if any minority-"white" cities are doing well doesn't count Mexicans and Arabs as white. San Antonio is 26.6% non-Hispanic white, Dallas 28.8%, Houston 26%, Austin 48.7%.
 
2013-06-18 11:55:12 AM

Ninja Otter: Pensions, Social Security, etc. should be replaced by tightly regulated defined contribution plans, not defined benefit plans that lead to problems like this and California's, where they've overpromised pensions and people game the system to get even bigger ones thanks to one or two years of lots of voluntary overtime. The funds should be invested in lifecycle-style funds, with no ability to borrow against (even for home purchase, hardship, etc). this is the money to make sure you can survive in retirement, not a fund to raid as needed. *Everyone* should have one; if you're married, filing jointly, some goes into your spouse's account (and your account is untouchable in a divorce) Not earning much? Just like social security, you get some gov't money to boost your contribution to a minimal amount to survive on.


This actually sounds reasonable.
 
2013-06-18 11:55:19 AM
I hate Rick Snyder.
 
2013-06-18 11:55:48 AM
I'm in a defined benefit pension plan - they can work if the people involved all behave like rational adults instead of greedy morons bent on extracting the last nickel for themselves.  You know what happens when the project returns don't meet the expected outlays?  They change the contribution rates and retirement guidelines - but they do it on a timescale that allows people to make adjustments.  So you don't have the "Hey, retiree, guess what, your pension is going to be cut in half because our CEO needs a bigger yacht for raiding the company pension system to pay for an acquisition in a company that you will get NO part of.
 
2013-06-18 11:56:07 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age when we have proper 401Ks and 403Bs, there really isn't a need for pensions anymore. The retirement needs of employees are usually fulfilled through the judicious use of saving and investment and in catastrophic cases Social Security payments. Pensions are a holdover from the bad old days when one was expected to work until death or face the twilight years eating dry cat food and living in a hospice.

As a society we're beyond that now, and we really ought to make the tough decisions to eliminate such wasteful and redundant systems, especially when the money could be better used to pump life into a real economy.

I'm not saying we should eliminate the pensions retirees are enjoying today or eliminating the pension reserves employees today have saved up. But new employees should be outfitted with proper retirement accounts rather than ephemeral and easily raided pension accounts.


Pretty much this. Rather than taking my companies pension, I worked out a deal for them to contribute to my 401k, and for me to be vested after X years.

Pensions are too easy to take away.
 
2013-06-18 11:56:10 AM

meanmutton: RaiderFanMikeP: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

miami?

Over 70% white, per the 2010 US Census.


11.6% non-Hispanic white.
 
2013-06-18 11:56:17 AM
Illinois is next, so strap in and bend over.

These problems have always been easily predicted, so we're surprised now?  The job benefits were always overly desired, the ability to retire fairly young built into the system, and lifespans are getting longer.  Fold in the surge of hiring that was needed to expand and maintain during the baby-boom cycle, and you have many more people entering pension roles than can be sustained.

The so-called smart guys running the system in the '60s, '70s, and '80s are the ones who set this debacle in motion--apparently not an economics genius in the whole lot of 'em.
 
2013-06-18 11:56:23 AM

Giant Clown Shoe: boo hoo.

They officials and unions have gamed the system and squeezed it dry. fark 'em.


I wouldnt quite phrase it that brusquely, but yeah no tears should be shed. If you have a defined benefit pension, you are a creditor to the organization that promised you that pension and have to take your lumps, with other creditors, if the organization goes bankrupt.

This is going to happen more and more as the chickens come home to roost on municipalities and states that promised too much to public sector workers.
 
2013-06-18 11:56:28 AM

YixilTesiphon: meanmutton: YixilTesiphon: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

Every big city in Texas?

Houston is 51% white, Dallas is 50.7% white, San Antonio is 72.6% white.  All per the 2010 US Census.

I am pretty sure somebody asking if any minority-"white" cities are doing well doesn't count Mexicans and Arabs as white. San Antonio is 26.6% non-Hispanic white, Dallas 28.8%, Houston 26%, Austin 48.7%.


Is there some sort of "whiteness" test now?  Sounds kind of Klansey.
 
2013-06-18 11:57:30 AM

wumpus: I hate Rick Snyder.


Stupid idiot, fixing Michigan's fiscal problems while not shoving social conservatism down our throats.
 
2013-06-18 11:57:53 AM

meanmutton: YixilTesiphon: meanmutton: YixilTesiphon: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

Every big city in Texas?

Houston is 51% white, Dallas is 50.7% white, San Antonio is 72.6% white.  All per the 2010 US Census.

I am pretty sure somebody asking if any minority-"white" cities are doing well doesn't count Mexicans and Arabs as white. San Antonio is 26.6% non-Hispanic white, Dallas 28.8%, Houston 26%, Austin 48.7%.

Is there some sort of "whiteness" test now?  Sounds kind of Klansey.


Race is a social construct. At least in Texas when I was growing up, Hispanics were a different "race" than "whites" - whether or not a person was a bigot.
 
2013-06-18 11:58:32 AM
Detroit has brought us both Eminem and Royce da 5'9, can we afford to allow the birthplace of such national treasures to fade away into financial insolvency?
 
2013-06-18 12:00:34 PM
Gordon Gekko is back again?
 
2013-06-18 12:00:57 PM

meanmutton: Headso: In a country where 50% of the population thinks a race to the bottom is the best thing ever pensions for any middle class person are going to be a problem. Businesses will move away from areas that protect the middleclass in favor of states that want to bring back company stores.

You have no idea at all about Detroit and its problems, do you?


you have no idea that half the population celebrates race to the bottom policies, do you?
 
2013-06-18 12:01:32 PM
Enron did it and theyre heroes to the Randroids. Because freedom or something
 
2013-06-18 12:01:57 PM

megarian: I'm still not over being pissed about the DIA situation. I guess this is next on my list. Busy month of being pissed.


You're going to need a vacation.  I hear Detroit has some really low rates on hotels these days.
 
2013-06-18 12:04:26 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age when we have proper 401Ks and 403Bs, there really isn't a need for pensions anymore. The retirement needs of employees are usually fulfilled through the judicious use of saving and investment and in catastrophic cases Social Security payments. Pensions are a holdover from the bad old days when one was expected to work until death or face the twilight years eating dry cat food and living in a hospice.

As a society we're beyond that now, and we really ought to make the tough decisions to eliminate such wasteful and redundant systems, especially when the money could be better used to pump life into a real economy.

I'm not saying we should eliminate the pensions retirees are enjoying today or eliminating the pension reserves employees today have saved up. But new employees should be outfitted with proper retirement accounts rather than ephemeral and easily raided pension accounts.


Good point, people should take responsibility for their own savings if a large pooled money churner is not offered as part of employers enticement when looking to hire competent loyal workers. But not everyone has the inbtelligence and education to wade through learning how to save and invest money, and pensions should be an untouchable.
Sadly Mrs. Kritter has not set aside 1 farking cent toward retirement. Her employer offers a range of investments but they always were high risk. 25 years at the same company and heading toward her 50's she has never spent 5 minutes to learn about retirement/investment vehicles available privately.
She prefers to defend herself by stating she will never retire. meanwhile every few years we have to take out a whopper loan to kill off accumulated credit card and other debt. Hopefully she'll go first (the sooner the better) and the Insurance Co will send Premium Boy to make me feel good about it all.
 
2013-06-18 12:05:24 PM
I hate to see this, but,,,
From long experience with mercenaries it is the benefit/retirement package that helps convert them to a "we" vs. "they" mentality so critical to enlisting sociopathic authoritarian storm troops, or the local cop.
 
2013-06-18 12:06:09 PM

KrispyKritter: Hopefully she'll go first (the sooner the better)


Sounds like you have a life full of love going on there....
 
2013-06-18 12:06:25 PM

meanmutton: RaiderFanMikeP: You Are All Sheep: So I'm curious, how many large or fairly large cities have majority non-white citizenry and are doing well financially?

miami?

Over 70% white, per the 2010 US Census.


yeah i saw that too..  Nevermind LOL
 
2013-06-18 12:07:17 PM

KrispyKritter: AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age when we have proper 401Ks and 403Bs, there really isn't a need for pensions anymore. The retirement needs of employees are usually fulfilled through the judicious use of saving and investment and in catastrophic cases Social Security payments. Pensions are a holdover from the bad old days when one was expected to work until death or face the twilight years eating dry cat food and living in a hospice.

As a society we're beyond that now, and we really ought to make the tough decisions to eliminate such wasteful and redundant systems, especially when the money could be better used to pump life into a real economy.

I'm not saying we should eliminate the pensions retirees are enjoying today or eliminating the pension reserves employees today have saved up. But new employees should be outfitted with proper retirement accounts rather than ephemeral and easily raided pension accounts.

Good point, people should take responsibility for their own savings if a large pooled money churner is not offered as part of employers enticement when looking to hire competent loyal workers. But not everyone has the inbtelligence and education to wade through learning how to save and invest money, and pensions should be an untouchable.
Sadly Mrs. Kritter has not set aside 1 farking cent toward retirement. Her employer offers a range of investments but they always were high risk. 25 years at the same company and heading toward her 50's she has never spent 5 minutes to learn about retirement/investment vehicles available privately.
She prefers to defend herself by stating she will never retire. meanwhile every few years we have to take out a whopper loan to kill off accumulated credit card and other debt. Hopefully she'll go first (the sooner the better) and the Insurance Co will send Premium Boy to make me feel good about it all.


Man, I know how that goes. Both the failure to save as well as wanting my spouse to die first. She's a really nice girl, but dumb as a box of rocks.
 
2013-06-18 12:07:44 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: In this day and age when we have proper 401Ks and 403Bs, there really isn't a need for pensions anymore. The retirement needs of employees are usually fulfilled through the judicious use of saving and investment and in catastrophic cases Social Security payments. Pensions are a holdover from the bad old days when one was expected to work until death or face the twilight years eating dry cat food and living in a hospice.

As a society we're beyond that now, and we really ought to make the tough decisions to eliminate such wasteful and redundant systems, especially when the money could be better used to pump life into a real economy.

I'm not saying we should eliminate the pensions retirees are enjoying today or eliminating the pension reserves employees today have saved up. But new employees should be outfitted with proper retirement accounts rather than ephemeral and easily raided pension accounts.


The guy who created the 401K tends to disagree with you.
 
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