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(USA Today)   New book raises alarms about alternative medicine, makes anti-vaxxers seem sane   (usatoday.com) divider line 112
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3800 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 Jun 2013 at 10:01 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-18 09:50:41 AM
Let's see here, vaccines don't work, but this stuff does.  They won't listen to their doctor's advice, but they have no problem believing a schook with a bottle of water and pocket of crystals.  And they won't go to a specialist for the migranes that they've been having, but they think that they'll add ten years to their life by sleeping on a magnet pillow.

i218.photobucket.com

We're wasting our time.
 
2013-06-18 09:59:03 AM
About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.
 
2013-06-18 10:08:29 AM
Unfortunately, alternative medicine will never die out thanks to the placebo effect.

It may make them feel subjectively good, but give me hard-science-based medicine every time.
 
2013-06-18 10:09:09 AM
With the crazy cost of healthcare it's no surprise that more folks are trying out grandma's home remedies.
 
2013-06-18 10:11:36 AM
Elixirs and liniments are still cool though, right?
 
2013-06-18 10:12:15 AM

KawaiiNot: With the crazy cost of healthcare it's no surprise that more folks are trying out grandma's home remedies.


You see, this is what I was thinking as well. But then the article says the ALTERNATIVE medicines are bilking people's money too. Someone needs to do a cost comparison, because I'm pretty sure that while they are both scams, alternative medicine is cheaper than going to the hospital.
 
2013-06-18 10:12:37 AM
The hypocrisy of people decrying "Big Pharma" while enabling modern-day snake oil salesmen to live a better life than most doctors is breathtaking.  Sort of like decrying the elitist limousine libruls while enabling a single pastor to have five Ferraris "for the Lord".
 
2013-06-18 10:15:13 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.


I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?
 
2013-06-18 10:17:21 AM
 
2013-06-18 10:20:25 AM

EatHam: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?


Do you balance a quartz crystal on the kid's head and waft sage smoke over him while he's drinking his soda or eating his popsicle? If not, they probably don't count it.
 
2013-06-18 10:20:55 AM
Let's not get carried away, smitty.
 
2013-06-18 10:22:25 AM
I work for a pharmaceutical company, so I'm getting a kick, etc.
 
2013-06-18 10:23:23 AM

give me doughnuts: Do you balance a quartz crystal on the kid's head and waft sage smoke over him while he's drinking his soda or eating his popsicle? If not, they probably don't count it.


I really don't want to believe that half of Americans are balancing quartz crystals on the kid's head.
 
2013-06-18 10:25:34 AM

EatHam: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?


I bet that counts reasonable, commonly-accepted treatments like a zinc lozenge when you feel a cold coming on, or a drill for when you need to drain the evil spirits out of your head.
 
2013-06-18 10:26:33 AM
My sister got non-FDA-approved treatment for melanoma in the bahamas and germany.  She's been cancer free since '05.
When my family insisted I see him for "peptide therapy" that would cure my manic-depression,  I looked him up.  He is being sued by several patients for telling them to get off of their chemo or radiation therapy, and to do some alternitave shiat, and then they died.  So I count my sister as lucky.

Also, my Architect's wackadoodle wife once insisted that I take some crap for my headache and congestion.  She said each dose had exactly one atom of silver (or was it gold) in it.  I told her no thanks, and explained that there is no way in chemestry to put a single atom per dose in a bottle and sell it to people.  She didn't believe me.

/CSB^2
 
2013-06-18 10:27:33 AM

EatHam: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?


Mint/lemon/ginger for sore throats, gingko for...something, flat coke for an upset stomach, marshmallows for wound care - some of these remedies have chemical reasons. Are they "alternative" or not?

I absolutely like the idea of evidence-based study (the kind the Institute I used to work for did) - like playing music to speed healing. There is an incredible amount of neglect shown for the psychological side of medicine (well, apart from the field of psychiatric medicine), but things like environmental treatment for Alzheimer's, while not "medical" (no shots, drugs or activities), is certainly "therapeutic" (aids in recovery/healing/symptom mitigation).

// they basically doll up a room to look like the patient's "old" life - period set pieces, music, smells (scent is great at memory-association), etc - which aids in cognition/recall
 
2013-06-18 10:29:39 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.


When my doc (a D.Ph., btw) was helping me get my blood pressure and chemistry (cholesterol & triglycerides and blood sugar) under control last year, she was insistent that I stop taking vitamins during treatment. It wasn't that she disliked them, she said, but that their interactions with prescription are real and not clearly understood or documented, and that for the year or two I'd have to take meds it was better to stay off them.
 
2013-06-18 10:31:26 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.


I suspect they're including stuff like drinking green tea because it's an anti-oxidant.
 
2013-06-18 10:32:53 AM
Big AltMed: Preying on the gullible, the desperate, and the stupid since the beginning of time.
 
2013-06-18 10:34:15 AM

Pontious Pilates: EatHam: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?

I bet that counts reasonable, commonly-accepted treatments like a zinc lozenge when you feel a cold coming on, or a drill for when you need to drain the evil spirits out of your head.


Hang on, is zinc "alternative"? I was sneezing like a foo' the other day so went to the pharmacist to get some antihistamines, they also recommended I get some vitamin c with zinc pills to help stave off a cold. I'd be most perturbed if it turned out that zinc hasn't been proven to have any effect, and they just sell it because alternative medicines have become so popular it's commonly-accepted without proof. When a pharmacist recommends something it had better been proven to work.
 
2013-06-18 10:35:14 AM
Although I do have to kinda agree with this

"If there is a placebo effect that brings back salivation to these people who can't eat or talk, who cares?"

Use it (the placebo effect) for little things, but for the love of all that is good and pure in this world, don't try to cure cancer with it.
 
2013-06-18 10:36:16 AM
Billy Nye needs to come over from the thread on the Main page and kicks these peoples' asses, scientifically speaking.
 
2013-06-18 10:40:38 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.


A lot of is probably stupid people going to a chiropractor and detox bullshiat.
 
2013-06-18 10:40:40 AM

Slaxl: Pontious Pilates: EatHam: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

I wonder what they're counting there.  I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?

I bet that counts reasonable, commonly-accepted treatments like a zinc lozenge when you feel a cold coming on, or a drill for when you need to drain the evil spirits out of your head.

Hang on, is zinc "alternative"? I was sneezing like a foo' the other day so went to the pharmacist to get some antihistamines, they also recommended I get some vitamin c with zinc pills to help stave off a cold. I'd be most perturbed if it turned out that zinc hasn't been proven to have any effect, and they just sell it because alternative medicines have become so popular it's commonly-accepted without proof. When a pharmacist recommends something it had better been proven to work.


I'm just thinking of the stuff you can pick up in the crunchy, granola medicine sections of high end grocery stores and health food places, etc. Rose hips, St. John's Wort, Eel Farts, etc, etc, etc... Mixed in with all that crazy stuff are some pretty commonly accepted "alternative" therapies. I don't think "alternative" necessarily means a doctor would never advise you to take it.
 
2013-06-18 10:41:10 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.


I know that some definitions include such practical treatments as massage therapy, and oddly enough, it turns out that chiropractic can be effective in treating a small subset of asthma cases (apparently mild nerve pressure in the neck can make the chest muscles tighten up). Putting massage and Airborne in the same category isn't helpful.
 
2013-06-18 10:44:53 AM

meat0918: Although I do have to kinda agree with this

"If there is a placebo effect that brings back salivation to these people who can't eat or talk, who cares?"

Use it (the placebo effect) for little things, but for the love of all that is good and pure in this world, don't try to cure cancer with it.


I guess it depends how you look at it. This belief in something that isn't really curative is exactly what the problem is to begin with. If you're not going to correct them on that why should they believe you when they extend the same principal to cancer?

These people are too stupid to separate empiricism from personal experience. Reinforcing that negative trait for convenience on minor problems isn't going to end well for anybody when they later have a major problem.
 
2013-06-18 10:46:49 AM

IlGreven: The hypocrisy of people decrying "Big Pharma" while enabling modern-day snake oil salesmen to live a better life than most doctors is breathtaking.  Sort of like decrying the elitist limousine libruls while enabling a single pastor to have five Ferraris "for the Lord".



I've never had a friend overdose and die from wearing rose crystals or Acupuncture.

Put 2 in the ground last year from pills. 44 and 41 years old.
 
2013-06-18 10:49:26 AM

Nurglitch: Elixirs and liniments are still cool though, right?


Snake Oil is where it's at.

Guaranteed.


to do nothing
 
2013-06-18 10:50:49 AM

Intrepid00: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

I really want to be surprised that the number is that high, but I'm kind of not.

A lot of is probably stupid people going to a chiropractor and detox bullshiat.


I've found the best chiropractors are people who didn't want to finish PT school. My wife goes to one and he basically cobbles parts of massage with parts of PT.
 
2013-06-18 10:52:52 AM

Pontious Pilates: I don't think "alternative" necessarily means a doctor would never advise you to take it.


Some of those things actually do have medical effects. There's two problems there, though:

1. Dumb people use them to self-treat things they self-diagnosed. If you're not willing to change your own oil because you're not a mechanic, why the dick-flying fark would you try to fix your own body when you're not a doctor?

2. Just because eye of newt might have "an effect" on some condition doesn't mean there aren't actual medicines that have a bigger, quicker and safer effect.

Lots of medicines are derived from herbs and vegetables and whatnot. The difference between the medicine and the bullshiat is that one has been carefully measured and combined with other ingredients to achieve maximum affect and minimum downside while the other one is just some retard rubbing poison ivy in his eyeballs.
 
2013-06-18 10:52:58 AM

meat0918: Although I do have to kinda agree with this

"If there is a placebo effect that brings back salivation to these people who can't eat or talk, who cares?"

Use it (the placebo effect) for little things, but for the love of all that is good and pure in this world, don't try to cure cancer with it.



If you want to bring salivation to them, just wave a cheeseburger under their nose.
 
2013-06-18 10:53:29 AM

FarkinHostile: I've never had a friend overdose and die from wearing rose crystals or Acupuncture.

Put 2 in the ground last year from pills. 44 and 41 years old.


Get smarter friends.
 
2013-06-18 10:54:08 AM

Pontious Pilates: I'm just thinking of the stuff you can pick up in the crunchy, granola medicine sections of high end grocery stores and health food places, etc. Rose hips, St. John's Wort, Eel Farts, etc, etc, etc... Mixed in with all that crazy stuff are some pretty commonly accepted "alternative" therapies. I don't think "alternative" necessarily means a doctor would never advise you to take it.


Overall, the scientific evidence supports the effectiveness of St. John's wort in mild-to-moderate major depression. It's been prescribed by doctors in Germany for over 50 years.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/st-johns-wort/NS_patient-stjohnswor t


I wouldn't put it  in the same category as Eel farts. More like opium to treat pain. In other words, it works.
 
2013-06-18 11:01:39 AM
That magnetic bracelet not only is fashionable but it turned my wrist green and took some of my arthritis pain away.  It was a godsend.
 
2013-06-18 11:04:23 AM

skozlaw: FarkinHostile: I've never had a friend overdose and die from wearing rose crystals or Acupuncture.

Put 2 in the ground last year from pills. 44 and 41 years old.

Get smarter friends.



One of the two was brilliant. Regardless, 38,329 people died of drug overdoses in the United States in 2010. How many died from wearing quartz? Zero.

"First, do no harm." Sound familiar?

Big Pharma is not some innocent victim just doing good while being lied about by hippies as implied by the poster I responded to. Not by a long shot. That was my point. Knowing how much damage pharmaceuticals can do, it's not crazy to seek other treatments first before running to farking pills, even if it's just something triggering the placebo effect.  It least that wont cause your kidneys to shut down, or suffocate in your sleep.
 
2013-06-18 11:06:42 AM

Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine


Now you see this is where things become very airy fairy, when I get a stinker of a head cold I'll make up a bowl of boiling water with some menthol crystals and eucalyptus oil mixed in.  Breath the steam in and it does clear you sinuses up a treat for a bit.    So clearly it works, people have done it for donkey years as well.

But me doing that rather than taking Sudafed or such means I'm using "alternative medicine" in some surveys even though I also use prescribed or OTC medication as and when needed, so the real question is what exactly are we defining as "alternative medicine" that 50% of a nations population are using?  And are 50% of them using these alternatives instead of or as a compliment to normal medicine as it 'can't do any harm and you never know'?

A lot of these studies/surveys are run as a "if you aren't in group A you must be in group B" affair which isn't very indicative of what is really happening.  I'm not saying there aren't total kooks out there but 50% of Americans exclusively using alternatives in favour of drugs?  You lot are dumb but you aren't quite THAT dumb.

FarkinHostile: I've never had a friend overdose and die from wearing rose crystals or Acupuncture.

Put 2 in the ground last year from pills. 44 and 41 years old.


Please, elaborate.  What exactly would you describe as their mental state prior to the overdose?  Were they happy, easy going and in good spirits or were they depressed?  Keep in mind depressed doesn't mean "a little bit sad" when answering.

Whilst doctors do make mistakes a lot of overdoses are taken by people who are very depressed about what is happening to them, the condition they are dealing with and/or how it is affecting their lives.

I'd agree, people don't die from wearing the rose crystals.  They just die of TB, Cancer, AIDS, Septicaemia and such instead.
 
2013-06-18 11:07:50 AM

EatHam: I wonder what they're counting there. I mean, does giving a kid some ginger ale for an upset stomach or a popsicle for a sore throat count?


give me doughnuts: Do you balance a quartz crystal on the kid's head and waft sage smoke over him while he's drinking his soda or eating his popsicle? If not, they probably don't count it.


Actually EatHam's question is extremely important, and your mocking dismissal of it isn't helping.  Big Pharma and Alternative Kooks both have agendas to make each other look bad, and whereas I've heard the stories about some kid dying because the parents tried homeopathy instead of taking the kid to the damned ER, Big Pharma has also paid out numerous settlements because they knew their products didn't work AND killed people and bribed the FDA to approve it anyway.

So while I won't "balance a quartz crystal on a kid's head" and the last time I experienced chest pains I went to ER because that was by far the smartest thing to do, I'm sure my own home remedies would be enthusiastically blacklisted as "alternative" by any study with Big Pharma behind it, because they want you to believe there's an epidemic of ignorance only they can save us from.

Really, methodology is everything here.  I know a few alternative kooks but if there's any hypocrisy at work, it's that they still go to the doctor if they're genuinely afraid of dying.  The really bizarre shiat is mostly used on relatively minor symptoms like the sniffles or even natural processes like aging.
 
2013-06-18 11:10:21 AM

PainInTheASP: Let's see here, vaccines don't work, but this stuff does.  They won't listen to their doctor's advice, but they have no problem believing a schook with a bottle of water and pocket of crystals.  And they won't go to a specialist for the migranes that they've been having, but they think that they'll add ten years to their life by sleeping on a magnet pillow.

[i218.photobucket.com image 600x403]

We're wasting our time.


For years I've suffered off and on with back problems. Probably a compressed disc in my lower spine. Point being, I tried chiropractic treatment. Made it worse (IMHO chiro is a complete waste of money and the "doctors" are charlatans making huge amounts of money for doing nothing). I tried traditional M.D. doctors, and the one guy said I might have bone cancer because a blood test came back higher than normal with some such protein in my blood (I'm still around 10 years later so somehow I don't think it was bone cancer). Tried ART (active relief therapy). Tried physiotherapy. The only thing that remotely works for me is acupuncture and I kind of wonder if it's the placebo effect at work in that case.
My point is you try just about anything to get relief from whatever ails you. The problem is most of us aren't very intelligent, and have to trust what someone is telling us. We base our opinions on the emotional response (what makes us comfortable or what we hear aligns with what we believe) and less on logic. We're still very primitive when it comes to medicine. The best doctor is like the best mechanic. A lot of times, he's the best guesser.
 
2013-06-18 11:12:24 AM

Nurglitch: Elixirs and liniments are still cool though, right?


no, stick with the leaches.
 
2013-06-18 11:18:13 AM
Time to trot out this old saw.

Do you know what you call 'alternative medicine' that actually works?

Medicine.

That's how we got aspirin.  The scientific method.
Observation: Lots of people drink willow bark tea to reduce aches and pains.
Hypothesis: There's a compound in willow bark that actually does those things.
etc.
 
2013-06-18 11:18:50 AM

FarkinHostile: 38,329 people died of drug overdoses in the United States in 2010


Awwwww, that's cute. You mingled illicit and prescription drugs in the same statistics. How wonderfully dishonest of you.

FarkinHostile: How many died from wearing quartz?


The same number that got better from it. Actually, I'd imagine that, while low, through indirect incidents some number greater than zero actually died which means more than got better, but whatever.

FarkinHostile: That was my point


You don't have a point. You can either try to do something that works or you can sit around with your thumb in your ass doing something that's guaranteed not to. You've chosen to defend the latter on the basis that the former isn't perfect so you're a useless crapsack as far as I'm concerned.
 
2013-06-18 11:23:31 AM

FarkinHostile: I've never had a friend overdose and die from wearing rose crystals or Acupuncture.

Put 2 in the ground last year from pills. 44 and 41 years old.


People don't die from lots of things. I probably do hundreds of things every day that kill fewer people every year than prescription medication.

That doesn't make those things useful substitutes for medicine. Lack of physical effect does not equate to effective medicine. Quite the opposite.
 
2013-06-18 11:26:36 AM

What depresses me is walking down the aisle of a damned pharmacy and seeing hundreds of instances of

*these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA

I don't mind the existence of alt-med, but it shouldn't be distributed next to real treatments of any sort.
 
2013-06-18 11:31:24 AM

Vaneshi: Please, elaborate. What exactly would you describe as their mental state prior to the overdose? Were they happy, easy going and in good spirits or were they depressed? Keep in mind depressed doesn't mean "a little bit sad" when answering.



One was quite depressed. The other was ok. Both were accidental. The deal is they both had abused pharmaceuticals for years. But it was ok because, you know, a DOCTOR prescribed them, and they know what they are doing....right? But eventually you take one too many because you forgot how many you took, and you die in your sleep.


Whilst doctors do make mistakes a lot of overdoses are taken by people who are very depressed about what is happening to them, the condition they are dealing with and/or how it is affecting their lives.
 
You are on the money with one of them. Of course, his answer to being depressed was more pills, so it ended up being a vicious cycle ending in his death.

I'd give my left nut to have had him be "irrational" and "stupid" and use yoga or  some other quackery. He'd still be alive.

Look, I'm not against using pharmaceuticals when absoloutly necessary, but the drug companies are not some benign do gooders out to alleviate human suffering. They are about PROFIT. They lie about effectiveness, safety and side effects all the time. "Big Pharma" is NOT your friend. Sure, the Snake oil salesmen are ripping off people, but call me when they kill over 38,000 people a year in the US.

Getting sad. Out of this one.
 
2013-06-18 11:39:39 AM

skozlaw: meat0918: Although I do have to kinda agree with this

"If there is a placebo effect that brings back salivation to these people who can't eat or talk, who cares?"

Use it (the placebo effect) for little things, but for the love of all that is good and pure in this world, don't try to cure cancer with it.

I guess it depends how you look at it. This belief in something that isn't really curative is exactly what the problem is to begin with. If you're not going to correct them on that why should they believe you when they extend the same principal to cancer?

These people are too stupid to separate empiricism from personal experience. Reinforcing that negative trait for convenience on minor problems isn't going to end well for anybody when they later have a major problem.


Fair enough.

Let me rephrase it then.

Maybe doctors should add a little theater and especially warmth to their doctoral routines.  One of the biggest reasons alt med "works" is because its practitioners provide some rudimentary psychotherapy by just listening to the patient and appearing interested in their problems.

I've tried to find it, but I remember some supposed study that looked at patient outcomes and found that the cold, sterile doctor's office, with it's flat white paint and blueish fluorescent lights, etc had lower positive outcomes than doctors with offices in warm colors, natural light, etc.

Presentation matters.  We know this for food and apply it to great effect.  Why aren't we doing it for medicine?  Is it hubris?
 
2013-06-18 11:42:21 AM
One of my coworkers was diagnosed with leukemia several years ago. Her doctor referred her to a leukemia specialist over in Durham, so off she went to get treatment. Except, the treatment made her hair fall out and she kept getting sick from the dosage. She went online and found some website touting the medicinal properties of some herb or vegetable or something, and she dropped her treatment in favor of eating lots of whatever plant the website recommended. When I asked her why she stopped the treatment, she said "well the plants have the same chemicals in them that the drugs do, only in natural form". Me pointing out that the drugs concentrate that chemical so she didn't have to eat a pound or two of the plant every day didn't stop her; that process was 'artificial' and ruined the beneficial properties of the plant.

Long story short, she's back on chemical treatment for her leukemia after it got worse during the time she stopped taking the drugs.
 
2013-06-18 11:43:02 AM

Vaneshi: Sybarite: About 50% of Americans use alternative medicine

Now you see this is where things become very airy fairy, when I get a stinker of a head cold I'll make up a bowl of boiling water with some menthol crystals and eucalyptus oil mixed in.  Breath the steam in and it does clear you sinuses up a treat for a bit.    So clearly it works, people have done it for donkey years as well.

But me doing that rather than taking Sudafed or such means I'm using "alternative medicine" in some surveys even though I also use prescribed or OTC medication as and when needed, so the real question is what exactly are we defining as "alternative medicine" that 50% of a nations population are using?  And are 50% of them using these alternatives instead of or as a compliment to normal medicine as it 'can't do any harm and you never know'?


That's not alternative medicine.  Menthol and eucalyptus oil have a known therapeutic effects on respiratory ailments.

Alternative medicine is using a Neti Pot.
 
2013-06-18 11:50:21 AM
meat0918:
That's not alternative medicine.  Menthol and eucalyptus oil have a known therapeutic effects on respiratory ailments.

Alternative medicine is using a Neti Pot.


Actually it IS alternative medicine as it's the raw, unrefined and packaged version (which in this case would be Vick's Vapour Rub or similar) depending on who you talk to and how a survey is conducted.   You and I may not see it as such but that doesn't mean others won't and record it as such.

Which was kinda my point.
 
2013-06-18 12:03:30 PM
I don't care what you say about placebos, that shiat works.
 
2013-06-18 12:03:56 PM

FarkinHostile: Look, I'm not against using pharmaceuticals when absoloutly necessary, but the drug companies are not some benign do gooders out to alleviate human suffering. They are about PROFIT. They lie about effectiveness, safety and side effects all the time. "Big Pharma" is NOT your friend. Sure, the Snake oil salesmen are ripping off people, but call me when they kill over 38,000 people a year in the US.


The pharmaceutical companies also operate under strict regulation that forces them to properly test the effectiveness of their products and publish the results before they are released. Despite their flaws and profit seeking real medicine does what it says on the tin.

As for the quacks, I don't have the information to assess their body count. Most of their bollocks is largely harmless, yet clearly people do indeed die for relying upon it instead of any actual, effective treatment.

Please do tell me which is worse. The one whose remedy kills because it is impossible to test on all potential body chemistries and determine long-term effects within the time framework of a legitimate study or the one who kills by lying to convince others to neglect their health needs?
 
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