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(Bleeding Cool)   Soooo.. about those missing Doctor Who stories   (bleedingcool.com) divider line 55
    More: Followup, Doctor Who, Mark Gatiss, eccentricity, Marco Polo, Doctor Who Magazine, Russell T. Davies, Dad's Army, real evidence  
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5711 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Jun 2013 at 8:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-17 05:05:49 PM  
I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.
 
2013-06-17 06:01:24 PM  

poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.


Copyright doesn't mean that they can just magically summon the film from across the sea. It's still in the physical possession of someone else. And the ownership of a physical piece of media versus the copyright on the media itself can get complicated.
 
2013-06-17 06:14:51 PM  

TheOmni: poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.

Copyright doesn't mean that they can just magically summon the film from across the sea. It's still in the physical possession of someone else. And the ownership of a physical piece of media versus the copyright on the media itself can get complicated.


Well, except that according to the article it may just be a massive hoax and the original tapes simply don't exist.
 
2013-06-17 06:25:27 PM  

Rincewind53: TheOmni: poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.

Copyright doesn't mean that they can just magically summon the film from across the sea. It's still in the physical possession of someone else. And the ownership of a physical piece of media versus the copyright on the media itself can get complicated.

Well, except that according to the article it may just be a massive hoax and the original tapes simply don't exist.



Oh, yeah, I totally agree that it is a massive hoax. I'm just saying that the talk of negotiations isn't out of place or indicative of a hoax.
 
2013-06-17 06:57:06 PM  
I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?

/why do humans look like Timelords?
 
2013-06-17 07:17:58 PM  
it is best left unfound. for the good of humanity. it really was, and still is, some of the crappiest crap on TV. except eccelston's doctor. he was awesome.
 
2013-06-17 08:13:29 PM  
 And then been kicked to the kerb.

Seems legit.
 
2013-06-17 08:15:57 PM  

fusillade762: I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?

/why do humans look like Timelords?


Jeebus.
 
2013-06-17 08:16:38 PM  

some_beer_drinker: it really was, and still is, some of the crappiest crap on TV.

2.bp.blogspot.com

Let's be a good chap and not say things that can't be unsaid.
 
2013-06-17 08:16:39 PM  
Damn. That sucks.

fusillade762: I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?


Coincidence. Because Eccleston has as well.
With the added bonus that Eccleston has played John Lennon, one of only four people known to be bigger than Jesus.
 
2013-06-17 08:18:09 PM  

New Farkin User Name: And then been kicked to the kerb.

Seems legit.



Seems British.
 
2013-06-17 08:18:57 PM  

SilentStrider: With the added bonus that Eccleston has played John Lennon, one of only four people known to be bigger than Jesus.


And the kid from Family of Blood/Human Nature played one of the others.

We're through the rabbit hole, people!
 
2013-06-17 08:23:29 PM  

SilentStrider: Damn. That sucks.

fusillade762: I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?

Coincidence. Because Eccleston has as well.
With the added bonus that Eccleston has played John Lennon, one of only four people known to be bigger than Jesus.


Ahh, John Lennon -- the 3rd most talented of the Beatles.
 
2013-06-17 08:28:19 PM  

TheOmni: Rincewind53: TheOmni: poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.

Copyright doesn't mean that they can just magically summon the film from across the sea. It's still in the physical possession of someone else. And the ownership of a physical piece of media versus the copyright on the media itself can get complicated.

Well, except that according to the article it may just be a massive hoax and the original tapes simply don't exist.


Oh, yeah, I totally agree that it is a massive hoax. I'm just saying that the talk of negotiations isn't out of place or indicative of a hoax.


Yes, you could argue the tapes themselves (if they had existed) would be valuable, and while copyright would probably mean the owners couldn't play them publicly without the BBCs permission still, it is unlikely the BBC retained legal ownership of the physical tapes they sent out to various places as if they were just loaning them out or something.
 
2013-06-17 08:30:13 PM  
This is eight thousand recovered films.....
 
2013-06-17 08:37:12 PM  

New Farkin User Name: And then been kicked to the kerb.

Seems legit.


Well colour my centre!
 
2013-06-17 08:41:14 PM  

Rincewind53: Well, except that according to the article it may just be a massive hoax and the original tapes simply don't exist.


The tapes don't. These are....kinescopes I guess....Basically they film the TV screen. I think video tape from that era would be pretty well useless, but film stock is a lot sturdier and doesn't suffer from loss like tape would. That's not to say if it weren't processed correctly that it couldn't have deteriorated as well.
 
2013-06-17 09:43:19 PM  

0Icky0: New Farkin User Name: And then been kicked to the kerb.

Seems legit.

Well colour my centre!


Don't be a wanker.
 
2013-06-17 09:46:08 PM  
Would it take warp drive to get a ship out in front of those signals to capture them and bring them back? The BBC could fund that. PBS could help.
 
2013-06-17 09:50:38 PM  
Just saw this for the first time today.

3.bp.blogspot.com

This needs to happen. I don't care how, just someone get it done.
 
2013-06-17 09:51:26 PM  
i.imgur.com

/has a sad
 
2013-06-17 11:00:37 PM  
I mean, any contact with an alien race would be amazing. But even more so if they brought back old episodes of Doctor Who with them, yes?

as long as they don't come looking for more episodes of 'single female lawyer' in exchange
 
2013-06-17 11:08:23 PM  

meanmutton: SilentStrider: Damn. That sucks.

fusillade762: I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?

Coincidence. Because Eccleston has as well.
With the added bonus that Eccleston has played John Lennon, one of only four people known to be bigger than Jesus.

Ahh, John Lennon -- the 3rd most talented of the Beatles.


Well, that's being mean to Paul.

/Silly Love Songs does put him far behind everyone else, though.
 
2013-06-17 11:13:16 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Silly Love Songs does put him far behind everyone else, though.


I would saaaaaaaaaay that isn't so, oh, no.
 
2013-06-17 11:15:14 PM  

PizzaJedi81: FirstNationalBastard: Silly Love Songs does put him far behind everyone else, though.

I would saaaaaaaaaay that isn't so, oh, no.


Silly Love Songs and Wonderful Christmastime alone negate at least 6 years worth of Beatles material.
 
2013-06-17 11:16:26 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: at least 6 years worth of Beatles material.


First six or last? This is important, as one was better than the other.
 
F42
2013-06-17 11:26:14 PM  
Doctor Who episodes AND Jimmy Hoffa in the same week? Damn!
 
2013-06-17 11:29:39 PM  

PizzaJedi81: FirstNationalBastard: at least 6 years worth of Beatles material.

First six or last? This is important, as one was better than the other.


Mmm... first six. Still leaves Abbey Road intact.

/and as for the topic of the thread... of course it was too good to be true. And those three missing Dad's Army episodes still remain missing, as well.
 
2013-06-17 11:32:36 PM  

100 Watt Walrus: [i.imgur.com image 696x575]
/has a sad


I see what you did there.

/goodbye Duggan!
 
2013-06-17 11:33:44 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Mmm... first six. Still leaves Abbey Road intact.


Good call. Maybe you aren't as big of a bastard as you make out to be.
 
2013-06-17 11:48:03 PM  

Rincewind53: TheOmni: poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.

Copyright doesn't mean that they can just magically summon the film from across the sea. It's still in the physical possession of someone else. And the ownership of a physical piece of media versus the copyright on the media itself can get complicated.

Well, except that according to the article it may just be a massive hoax and the original tapes simply don't exist.


It has happened in the past a few times.  Rarely do that many official BBC people get involved in those though.

If this is in any way legit, my guess would be that the episodes may have come from Nambia or in the vicinity thereof.  There was a lot of interest in Nambia as a source of missing episodes several years ago due to a lot of the stations that bought episodes having sat mostly unused in the time since (what with the wars and all).  It was only recently that they started going through old storage rooms and began uncovering old episodes of things... not missing things, but old things nobody knew they had all the same.

It would be nice if it was true.  If not, the animation reconstructions are plenty nice.  Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.
 
2013-06-17 11:50:43 PM  
Was the entertainment tab already too full of Doctor Who articles?
 
2013-06-17 11:51:23 PM  

yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.


Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.
 
2013-06-17 11:55:14 PM  

F42: Doctor Who episodes AND Jimmy Hoffa in the same week? Damn!


Maybe they'll find them both in the same place?
 
2013-06-18 12:10:49 AM  

poot_rootbeer: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.


If I have a DVD of Sludge Monster Meets Vermin Man, that I bought, and the studio somehow lost all their copies and no other copy was known to exist in the world that would not give them the right to demand my DVD off me. I'd certainly have the right to negotiate a price. I wouldn't be able to sell the rights to anyone else, since I don't own the copyright, but I'd certainly have the right to just keep my DVD to myself and tell them to get stuffed.
 
2013-06-18 12:15:54 AM  

PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.


Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.
 
2013-06-18 12:18:08 AM  
farm8.staticflickr.com

Seems legit.
 
2013-06-18 12:47:05 AM  
Well ... poop.


/Has no use at all for the "new" and "improved" show. (spits on the ground)
 
2013-06-18 01:57:37 AM  
I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.


Another thing that's not helping the BBC is they've never offered any reward for the missing episodes. If they offered up 10K for each episode, that would really help recover more, especially from African countries.
 
2013-06-18 02:56:06 AM  

ArcadianRefugee: [farm8.staticflickr.com image 490x416]

Seems legit.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-18 03:06:35 AM  

Baron Harkonnen: Another thing that's not helping the BBC is they've never offered any reward for the missing episodes. If they offered up 10K for each episode, that would really help recover more, especially from African countries.


I thought they offered a full size Dalek prop to anyone who found a lost episode. Which probably won't help get someone to go searching through warehouses in Windhoek but might work on a collector who has an episode that they're not sharing because they feel special having something no one else has. Which is probably a very small, if non existent group, so yeah, cash would be good.
 
2013-06-18 03:14:16 AM  
"Kerb" is the British spelling of "curb".

Or "curb" is the American spelling of "kerb".

Whichever...
 
2013-06-18 04:39:54 AM  

Abner Doon: PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.

Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.


IIRC, there are 5 or 6 Troughton serials completely intact, with 3 or 4 more either completed or being completed with animation.

Of course, that still leaves roughly half his run missing.
 
2013-06-18 05:32:41 AM  
If there is any truth to the discovery I hope the episodes with the Macra are returned.
 
2013-06-18 08:07:51 AM  

Baron Harkonnen: I'm no expert on copyright law as it was practiced by the British Commonwealth forty years ago, but it seems pretty natural to me that if recordings of BBC-owned programmes were distributed overseas and subsequently lost, they would remain the rightful property of the BBC once rediscovered.

The talk of "negotiating" with the alleged possessor of the tapes tells me that the story isn't true.

Another thing that's not helping the BBC is they've never offered any reward for the missing episodes. If they offered up 10K for each episode, that would really help recover more, especially from African countries.


The BBC has been quite schizophrenic about this in the past (as befits a huge government bureaucracy):
On the one hand they would love to have as many old episodes , but there was a story about a collector
who found a copy of some episodes of THE CRUSADE  (a legendary Hartnell historical) in New Zealand
who got hit with a C&D letter stating in very scary language that he was in possession of stolen property
and that the authorities would be brought in to retrieve it.  It all got sorted out, and eventually it was
negotiated that he would send it back to the BBC and they would reimburse him for the costs, but even that
took a long time to get sorted out.

The website SF Debris has an excellent primer on the whole missing episode situation, though it is a bit
out of date.  It was made before the recent re-discovery of episodes from GALAXY FOUR (Hartnell) and
THE UNDERWATER MENACE (Troughton), but overall it is still a very accurate summation of the whole
business.

The originial his here, but lo and behold, it looks like he has put up an update in the last couple of days
on the current rumours, which is well worth a look.  He does bring up the two recent finds, and I think that
the finding of these are the basis of this rumours.
 
2013-06-18 10:31:28 AM  

fusillade762: I realized the other day that John Hurt has now played the Doctor AND Jesus. Coincidence?


My friends and I complained a LOT that Matt Smith looks like the Elephant Man.   So, who do they cast as the Doctor?  John Hurt--who played the Elephant Man.    Well played....Well played...

/why do humans look like Timelords?

This will be the story of season 14.   Be patient.
 
2013-06-18 10:42:00 AM  

Abner Doon: PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.

Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.


Marco Polo was done pretty well, but yea some are awful to try and get through.

I hope whoever made the call to wipe the tapes in the first place lived just long enough to realize what a gigantic fark up he made.
 
2013-06-18 11:14:09 AM  

Titanius Anglesmith: Abner Doon: PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.

Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.

Marco Polo was done pretty well, but yea some are awful to try and get through.

I hope whoever made the call to wipe the tapes in the first place lived just long enough to realize what a gigantic fark up he made.


There was no one mustache-twirling guy holding a giant magnet and cackling with glee, this was just policy.

At that time, the BBC could only repeat a show 2 or 3 times before having to renegotiate with everyone involved to pay more royalties. So, that made the films worthless after that amount of repeats was up. Also, when the BBC went color in 1969, Black and White shows were now, essentially, worthless to them because the people were paying for color TV licenses, so why would they want to see B&W programming? And on top  of that, videotapes were expensive, and it was cheaper to wipe and reuse them than to buy a new one because they were saving some worthless show with no rerun value, and very little overseas sales value.

So, the BBC wiped shows up to and including the beginning of the Tom Baker run, and didn't establish an archive until the late-70s.

And they weren't alone. American networks also wiped tapes of daytime shows until the late-70s, and ABC did a horrible thing when they acquired the entire DuMont Network library, they loaded it into trucks and dumped the tapes into the East river so they would have some extra warehouse space.

Compared to ABC, the BBC were thoughtful.
 
2013-06-18 11:27:57 AM  

FirstNationalBastard: Titanius Anglesmith: Abner Doon: PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.

Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.

Marco Polo was done pretty well, but yea some are awful to try and get through.

I hope whoever made the call to wipe the tapes in the first place lived just long enough to realize what a gigantic fark up he made.

There was no one mustache-twirling guy holding a giant magnet and cackling with glee, this was just policy.

At that time, the BBC could only repeat a show 2 or 3 times before having to renegotiate with everyone involved to pay more royalties. So, that made the films worthless after that amount of repeats was up. Also, when the BBC went color in 1969, Black and White shows were now, essentially, worthless to them because the people were paying for color TV licenses, so why would they want to see B&W programming? And on top  of that, videotapes were expensive, and it was cheaper to wipe and reuse them than to buy a new one because they were saving some worthless show with no rerun value, and very little overseas sales value.

So, the BBC wiped shows up to and including the beginning of the Tom Baker run, and didn't establish an archive until the late-70s.

And they weren't alone. American networks also wiped tapes of daytime shows until the late-70s, and ABC did a horrible thing when they acquired the entire DuMont Network library, they loaded it into trucks and dumped the tapes into the East river so they would have some extra warehouse space.

Compared to ABC, the BBC were thoughtful.


I realize that, but this was when the show was already a huge hit, and it seems the wiping policy was hit or miss. Some shows were kept, but others wiped clean.

I heard even Python was on the chopping block till someone called Terry Gilliam and he had to buy the tapes off the BBC. 

It just seems they could have done a better job of balancing out what was kept and what went.
 
2013-06-18 11:38:53 AM  

Titanius Anglesmith: FirstNationalBastard: Titanius Anglesmith: Abner Doon: PizzaJedi81: yukichigai: Way easier to watch than Loose Cannon reconstructions and such.

Ugh, I HATE those. It's the primary thing that's keeping me from enjoying the First Doctor's stories.

Yeah, I just skipped those, they're too painful.  At least there's a few First Doc stories available in full.  I wish more of Troughton's had survived, I liked what little I saw of him.  He has what, like one full story?  Sucks.

Marco Polo was done pretty well, but yea some are awful to try and get through.

I hope whoever made the call to wipe the tapes in the first place lived just long enough to realize what a gigantic fark up he made.

There was no one mustache-twirling guy holding a giant magnet and cackling with glee, this was just policy.

At that time, the BBC could only repeat a show 2 or 3 times before having to renegotiate with everyone involved to pay more royalties. So, that made the films worthless after that amount of repeats was up. Also, when the BBC went color in 1969, Black and White shows were now, essentially, worthless to them because the people were paying for color TV licenses, so why would they want to see B&W programming? And on top  of that, videotapes were expensive, and it was cheaper to wipe and reuse them than to buy a new one because they were saving some worthless show with no rerun value, and very little overseas sales value.

So, the BBC wiped shows up to and including the beginning of the Tom Baker run, and didn't establish an archive until the late-70s.

And they weren't alone. American networks also wiped tapes of daytime shows until the late-70s, and ABC did a horrible thing when they acquired the entire DuMont Network library, they loaded it into trucks and dumped the tapes into the East river so they would have some extra warehouse space.

Compared to ABC, the BBC were thoughtful.

I realize that, but this was when the show was already a huge hit, and it seems the wiping policy was ...


The show WASN'T a success by 1969, for the BBC or overseas sales, and the first Pertwee year was a make or break year that decided the show's fate.

The shows that remain exist solely because of BBC Worldwide and overseas sales. Troughton's run got hit especially hard because the show wasn't selling that well for his run, and no copies were made. OTOH, Hartnell's first year had big overseas sales, so everything but Marco Polo and two episodes of Reign of Terror survive, because copies were made of the episodes.

 Basically, the reason anything from those two survive, and a good chunk of Pertwee's run is still around, is because of worldwide sales. And the reason there are so many gaps is because of what episodes could be found and weren't destroyed.
 
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