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(Yahoo)   The arrest of Utah businessman and noted philanthropist Jeremy Johnson raises an interesting question: Should you really get credit for good deeds you do when they are paid for with money you defrauded from other people?   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 97
    More: Sad, Utah Man, Internet fraud, Utah, internet, Utah businessman, Salt Lake City Tribune, arrests  
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3736 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jun 2013 at 1:47 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-17 02:43:08 PM  
i42.tinypic.com
 
2013-06-17 02:44:12 PM  
Of course!

indeclaration.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-17 02:44:56 PM  

TanSau: Should you really get credit for good deeds you do when they are paid for with money you defrauded from other people?

Ask Bill Gates


Glad Somebody mentioned him, though, to be fair, he didn;t defraud it so much as ruthlessly accumulate it by unethical means while crushing his competititors.

?still makesme feel old when I try to explain to people that Bill Gates used to be the devil, that Microsoft was the all ecompassing tech  leviathan with a near monopoly on the Market, and Apple was a plucky little company beloved by artists and free-thinkers for being the ethical little company that stood up to "the Man"
 
2013-06-17 02:47:36 PM  

Magorn: TanSau: Should you really get credit for good deeds you do when they are paid for with money you defrauded from other people?

Ask Bill Gates

Glad Somebody mentioned him, though, to be fair, he didn;t defraud it so much as ruthlessly accumulate it by unethical means while crushing his competititors.

?still makesme feel old when I try to explain to people that Bill Gates used to be the devil, that Microsoft was the all ecompassing tech  leviathan with a near monopoly on the Market, and Apple was a plucky little company beloved by artists and free-thinkers for being the ethical little company that stood up to "the Man"


Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become IBM Microsoft Apple.
 
2013-06-17 02:47:46 PM  

Magorn: TanSau: Should you really get credit for good deeds you do when they are paid for with money you defrauded from other people?

Ask Bill Gates

Glad Somebody mentioned him, though, to be fair, he didn;t defraud it so much as ruthlessly accumulate it by unethical means while crushing his competititors.

?still makesme feel old when I try to explain to people that Bill Gates used to be the devil, that Microsoft was the all ecompassing tech  leviathan with a near monopoly on the Market, and Apple was a plucky little company beloved by artists and free-thinkers for being the ethical little company that stood up to "the Man"


The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
2013-06-17 02:47:47 PM  
It helps if you don't look completely insane like this guy does. I closed the link before he could eat my soul. I hope.
 
2013-06-17 03:04:05 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: suburbanguy: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

Tips over x% (insert company policy here) shouldn't be reimbursed, but a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees.

Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.


I agree with several other responses to you above. The answer to prevent gouging the company is not gouging the employee. There's a middle ground. If you send an employee on a required trip, you pay for (not exorbitant) tips. He didn't choose to go on that trip - you made him. Thus, it's your responsibility to pay for his necessary expenses. If you're paying for his meals, you should pay for a (at least modest) tip.
 
2013-06-17 03:07:56 PM  

StrandedInAZ: suburbanguy: a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees

Agreed.
~
~



Woah there, tiger. Check part of the follow-up comment I bolded below:


DROxINxTHExWIND: We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.

~
~



The spirit of that policy is that is what employees would normally spend on total food bills per day, surely?

So, if you have a $100 per diem on food. Then budget to spend $86.96 on food before your 15% tip.

// WAAAAAAH!! I spent $100 on food gimme more money gimme gimme gimme.
 
2013-06-17 03:11:14 PM  

ditkaman: Why not. Isn't that what liberals do?


Actually, the examples I can think of were pretty conservative.  Charles Keating, Baby Doc Duvalier, and Robert Maxwell.....

But that was all ok, because the money was given to Mother Theresa, and she makes everyting ok.
 
2013-06-17 03:11:26 PM  
Victor Hugo - A Fight With A Cannon

One of the oddities of perception - in particular when applied to people of the past and/or past actions.

Pick pretty much any topic or individual: Fire bombing of Dresden/Tokyo? Michael Jackson: King of Pop or child diddler?

Hell, depending on what part of the world you're from Genghis Khan was either a homicidal maniac that killed a large percentage of the living population at the time, or a hero who eliminated petty warlord infighting and laid the foundation for a lasting peace of hundreds of years.

The pursuit of wealth in particular has been a defining aspect of America - read Alexis de Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America' to see how much/little has changed - depending on your particular perception. Since there have been colonies this exact same behavior has occurred - it's just a question of what portion of an individual's actions you wish to emphasize.

/George Washington quelled the Whiskey Rebellion (hung quite few, mostly poor western farmers upset over - in their minds -  taxation without representation), then returned to Mount Vernon, built the largest distillery in the colonies at the time and made a bundle... :>o
 
2013-06-17 03:17:32 PM  
Your sentence should be doubled because you gave philanthropy a bad name.
 
2013-06-17 03:25:34 PM  
Is this not the entire point of the Democrat party? They take money from productive people at gunpoint, give it to lazy slobs and claim they're doing good works and deserve praise?
 
2013-06-17 03:25:46 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.


You are the one REJECTING MY EXPENSE REPORTS??

YOU BASTARD!!!
 
2013-06-17 03:26:07 PM  
What if the people you defrauded got that money from defrauding the people you're helping?

=Smidge=
 
2013-06-17 03:29:14 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Your sentence should be doubled because you gave philanthropy a bad name.


Philanthropy is when one steals a billion and gives away a million.
 
2013-06-17 03:34:38 PM  

Kinek: DROxINxTHExWIND: suburbanguy: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

Tips over x% (insert company policy here) shouldn't be reimbursed, but a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees.

Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.

So when the waitress or waitstaff at the hotel shiats in your morning oatmeal and you come down with e. coli, is /that/ reimbursable?



No, but at least I didn't give my money to the kind of asshole who would try to make me sick because he didn't get rewarded for the previous days' bad service. Also, I'm not a pussy so I don't give people money becauxe I'm frightened of what they may possibly almost do to me. That's extortion.
 
2013-06-17 03:34:53 PM  
It all depends on who got ripped off.

Banksters, most Wall Street types, bill collectors, patent trolls, fundie megachurches, and other parasites of society?  Go for it, and more power to ya.
 
2013-06-17 03:36:35 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x855]

You can't cheat the mountain, Pilgrim.
Mountain's got its own ways.


Thank you! Came for this. Now I'll have the awesome acoustic soundtrack in my head all day!
 
2013-06-17 03:44:39 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x855]

You can't cheat the mountain, Pilgrim.
Mountain's got its own ways.


Indeed - one of the best movies ever.
 
2013-06-17 03:57:38 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Kinek: DROxINxTHExWIND: suburbanguy: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

Tips over x% (insert company policy here) shouldn't be reimbursed, but a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees.

Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.

So when the waitress or waitstaff at the hotel shiats in your morning oatmeal and you come down with e. coli, is /that/ reimbursable?


No, but at least I didn't give my money to the kind of asshole who would try to make me sick because he didn't get rewarded for the previous days' bad service. Also, I'm not a pussy so I don't give people money becauxe I'm frightened of what they may possibly almost do to me. That's extortion.


Tipping is standard in some countries. Any company doing business there should either be allowing standard tipping to be expensed or should be giving a per diem. If one is going to be expensing a meal outside the per diem, for example a meal with clients or partners, then one must be able to tip within reason and expense the total bill. Do you really want your customers and partners to see that your employees are not tipping in the US, for example? That's bad for everyone and no, the employee should not be paying a potentially large (but perfectly standard) tip on a meal outside their per diem out of pocket.
 
2013-06-17 03:57:42 PM  
Is lying, cheating, bribing and stealing ok if the funds go to buy votes and feed a narcissists behavior OCD? Not sure, someone ask obama.
 
2013-06-17 03:57:43 PM  

Big Ramifications: StrandedInAZ: suburbanguy: a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees

Agreed.
~
~


Woah there, tiger. Check part of the follow-up comment I bolded below:


DROxINxTHExWIND: We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.
~
~


The spirit of that policy is that is what employees would normally spend on total food bills per day, surely?

So, if you have a $100 per diem on food. Then budget to spend $86.96 on food before your 15% tip.

// WAAAAAAH!! I spent $100 on food gimme more money gimme gimme gimme.


I think the tipping thing is sort getting off topic for this thread, but I feel I must say...

Surely there's no 'one size fits all' on this?  If you're a sales rep for a big company and you're expected to wine-and-dine customers, it's reasonable to expect tips to be reimbursed.  It's also reasonable for your company to put a limit on how large a tip you can leave.  But if you're out of town for some other kind of work, and you're simply dining/riding/hotelling off a per diem, then it's reasonable to expect you to budget that per diem in a way that it also covers whatever tips you leave.  And finally, whatever the circumstances, it's reasonable for the folks in accounting to expect that the employee understands the applicable policies, and that the employee not give the accounting team crap for simply following the rules.

I mean... right?

As far as the question in the headline... no, you shouldn't get credit for those good deeds.  That money wasn't yours, you shouldn't have spent it on anything, and the fact the you spent it on stuff we like is irrelevant.  So, if in fact this guy is guilty of fraud, he shouldn't get credit for anything he did which involves spending that money.  If he did other, unrelated good things, he can feel good about those while he's in prison.
 
2013-06-17 03:58:46 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.


I can't imagine why you wouldn't understand how tipping works.
 
2013-06-17 03:59:52 PM  

neversubmit: Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become IBM Microsoft Apple.


SHHHHHH! Are you TRYING to get sued?
 
2013-06-17 04:10:34 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: neversubmit: Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become IBM Microsoft Apple.

SHHHHHH! Are you TRYING to get sued?


Did he mention the Shining?
 
2013-06-17 04:12:01 PM  

This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't understand how tipping works.


Aren't you clever?


Nope.
 
2013-06-17 04:21:14 PM  

obamadidcoke: The charges against Mr. Johnson are obviously false. Mormons don't do evil things.


I read somewhere not too long ago that three or four Utah Coutnies have a higher rate of financial fraud prosecutions than anywere else in the US.  And while part of that is that Mormons tend to make easier victims tham others because they tend to be so trusting, but only with other Mormons.
 
2013-06-17 04:22:04 PM  

This text is now purple: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't understand how tipping works.


So many negatives in that sentence, I think it turned into a compliment by the end of the sentence.
 
2013-06-17 04:52:44 PM  

ditkaman: Why not. Isn't that what liberals do?


The road to hell is paved with other people's money.
 
2013-06-17 04:54:16 PM  

Magorn: obamadidcoke: The charges against Mr. Johnson are obviously false. Mormons don't do evil things.

I read somewhere not too long ago that three or four Utah Coutnies have a higher rate of financial fraud prosecutions than anywere else in the US.  And while part of that is that Mormons tend to make easier victims tham others because they tend to be so trusting, but only with other Mormons.


MLM is endemic out here.  It looks like a pyramid, turned on it's side...

/How much of JJ's stolen money went back to the LDS church?  10%
 
2013-06-17 05:11:37 PM  
DROxINxTHExWIND:  No, but at least I didn't give my money to the kind of asshole who would try to make me sick because he didn't get rewarded for the previous days' bad service. Also, I'm not a pussy so I don't give people money becauxe I'm frightened of what they may possibly almost do to me. That's extortion.

No, but as a sanctimonious douchebag, you've got the pussy-accessory niche nicely cornered.
 
2013-06-17 05:24:49 PM  

Holographic Shimmering Pork: DROxINxTHExWIND:  No, but at least I didn't give my money to the kind of asshole who would try to make me sick because he didn't get rewarded for the previous days' bad service. Also, I'm not a pussy so I don't give people money becauxe I'm frightened of what they may possibly almost do to me. That's extortion.

No, but as a sanctimonious douchebag, you've got the pussy-accessory niche nicely cornered.


You crawled out from under a rock to be critical and call names?

/Stay classy and mature
 
2013-06-17 05:34:25 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 850x855]

You can't cheat the mountain, Pilgrim.
Mountain's got its own ways.


Damn straight Skippy...
i283.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-17 06:10:45 PM  
"My brother Jeremy Johnson did an amazing thing"

www.wearysloth.com
 
2013-06-17 06:23:17 PM  
Approves

www.filmequals.com
 
2013-06-17 06:26:29 PM  

Thwartme: Big Ramifications:

> So, if you have a $100 per diem on food. Then budget to spend $86.96 on food before your 15% tip.

> // WAAAAAAH!! I spent $100 on food gimme more money gimme gimme gimme.

I think the tipping thing is sort getting off topic for this thread, but I feel I must say...

Surely there's no 'one size fits all' on this?  If you're a sales rep for a big company and you're expected to wine-and-dine customers, it's reasonable to expect tips to be reimbursed.  It's also reasonable for your company to put a limit on how large a tip you can leave.  But if you're out of town for some other kind of work, and you're simply dining/riding/hotelling off a per diem, then it's reasonable to expect you to budget that per diem in a way that it also covers whatever tips you leave.  And finally, whatever the circumstances, it's reasonable for the folks in accounting to expect that the employee understands the applicable policies, and that the employee not give the accounting team crap for simply following the rules.

I mean... right?

~
~

Great summary. Two possible structures to claim for food expenses. I was being a bit rude there, sorry fellas.


In one expense claim structure, the company WOULD be screwing their employees if they didn't pay for the tips as well.


In the other structure the company WOULDN'T be screwing their employees. It would require a TAD MORE THINKING to make sure you didn't short change yourself, but you'd have to be a bloody moron not to get your head around it.
 
2013-06-17 06:51:14 PM  
Forgive the stereotyping but damn if Jeremy doesn't  look like the poster boy of Mormon men in Utah.
 
2013-06-17 08:18:28 PM  

Clemkadidlefark: Forgive the stereotyping but damn if Jeremy doesn't  look like the poster boy of Mormon men in Utah.


Well, to be fair, like 90% of Utah Mormons come from like a dozen patriarchs. Smith, Young, Rasmussen, Kimball, Turley, Ballard, Shumway, Flake, Petersen, Larson, etc.

I was a convert. I didn't look like the other Mormons, except for my suit and nametag.
 
2013-06-17 09:16:32 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: suburbanguy: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

Tips over x% (insert company policy here) shouldn't be reimbursed, but a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees.

Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.



Wow, what an unbelievable douche you are and what a shiatty company you work for. Or maybe it's just you.

I work for a non-profit that's been in operation since 1980, I've been at the company since 2006, and the company would never not reimburse reasonable tips. They also pay decent wages and don't cheat their donors and clients out of anything.

But you keep digging out those pennies, nickles and dimes.
 
2013-06-17 11:01:24 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: suburbanguy: DROxINxTHExWIND: Its amazing how charitable folks can be with someone else's money. I see it all of the time when I reject folks expense reports. The first time they submit an ER, there's a $15 tip to the cab driver, 30% tip to the waiter, etc. Once I tell them that their tips aren't reimburseable the amounts reduce significantly.

Tips over x% (insert company policy here) shouldn't be reimbursed, but a company that doesn't reimburse ANY tips is just plain screwing its employees.

Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.



I'm probably not doing it justice, but this is a story you need to hear apparently.

A consultant was asked at the last minute to take a trip to Seattle. While this was entirely inconvenient for him, as a professional, he put aside his personal plans (he was going on vacation) and got on the earliest red eye flight.

Upon arriving to Seattle, the consultant found it was pouring down rain, and he hadn't had time to pack his umbrella so he bought one at the airport from a kiosk for $5.

Upon returning from his trip, he submitted his expense report and included the $5 umbrella.

The accountant called him up and said, "Ha, I caught you. We're not paying for your umbrella. You thought you were slick trying to get that one past me, didn't you?"

To which the consultant calmly replied, "Okay, you got me, so I'll resubmit my expense report. In fact, it's a good thing you did because I think I screwed a couple of other things up. I don't want you paying me for something that you shouldn't. I'll resubmit with the correct amounts."

The accountant hung up, feeling good about himself. Minutes later, an email arrived from the consultant with his new expense report attached, and a short message... "Find the umbrella now."
 
2013-06-18 12:11:25 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: Tips are not required by law. If you received good service and you feel that a tip is warrented, then tip. The company isn't stopping you. This is a not-for-profit organization. I can just read the news articles now about extravagent tippers showering waitresses with your hard-earned taxes. We can't subsidize your big willy act. You've been flown to a location, set up in a hotel and given ground transportation and per diem for your meals. Its not asking a lot to pay your tips on your own. its also a control against fraud. Tips don't normally appear on the receipt electronically. We don't want folks to fill in any amount and pocket the money.


1. Tips are not required by law, but they are a customary act of politeness.  I trust you want your employees to be polite representatives of your company.  To financially encourage them to be rude is counterproductive.  It's perfectly fine to set a limit (not more than 20%, etc.) but to not reimburse at all is terrible.

2. Why are you even requiring an expense report for meals if there's a per diem?

3. A company that treats its employees with such suspicion that you're worried about an employee possibly stealing $20 per day in tips will generally get the kind of employees that it expects.  Treating your employees like they're out to get you is a very quick way to cause them to be out to get you.  The lack of trust shown to the employees will cause more problems than the loss of that tip money.
 
2013-06-18 12:53:40 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: Clemkadidlefark: Forgive the stereotyping but damn if Jeremy doesn't  look like the poster boy of Mormon men in Utah.

Well, to be fair, like 90% of Utah Mormons come from like a dozen patriarchs. Smith, Young, Rasmussen, Kimball, Turley, Ballard, Shumway, Flake, Petersen, Larson, etc.

I was a convert. I didn't look like the other Mormons, except for my suit and nametag.


Are you still ...?
 
2013-06-18 02:59:45 AM  
The IRS does, so why not?
 
2013-06-18 10:51:18 AM  

Pocket Ninja: In all of these instances, have I not saved you from certain death? There, now your dumb question has been answered.


Poor logic.
 
2013-06-18 01:05:44 PM  

Sum Dum Gai: Why are you even requiring an expense report for meals if there's a per diem?


Trolls they were...
 
2013-06-18 01:22:40 PM  

zepher: Approves


THIS! 

/loved that flick. Didn't think I would going into it, but it was great.
 
2013-06-18 03:43:36 PM  

TwelveSpongeCakes: zepher: Approves

THIS! 

/loved that flick. Didn't think I would going into it, but it was great.


Same here.
I was hesitant with Jack Black playing the lead in that type of role but it was a really good movie with the local townspeople interviews being icing on the cake.
 
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