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(Washington Post)   I'm shocked, shocked, that police departments are using facial recognition software to mine driver's license databases for suspects, accomplices and witnesses   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 52
    More: Obvious, driver's licenses, driver's license databases, fusion center, office park, databases, mobile apps, Pinellas County Sheriff's Office, civil liberties  
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2783 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jun 2013 at 7:36 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-17 07:42:11 AM  
shiat
 
2013-06-17 07:43:09 AM  
But only after they enhance... Enhance... ENHANCE! the video.
 
2013-06-17 07:45:05 AM  
Thank, Obama.
 
2013-06-17 07:49:05 AM  
A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.
 
2013-06-17 08:08:30 AM  
I'm not really surprised by this at all.
 
2013-06-17 08:10:46 AM  

simusid: A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.


This is why you always vary your patterns. Never drive the same road at the same time each day. Learn to watch for Crown Vics, Impalas, Chargers, and UC's with tinted windows. Back in if you can as some states don't require front & back license plates. Buy digital scales and a lot of small plastic baggies on a credit card and watch the street out front of your house. If you wake up in the middle of the night, turn on some lights, then flicker them on and off in false morse code.

/really just screw with em
//son of two cops.
///these come in threes.
 
2013-06-17 08:11:11 AM  
We need an exploding obvious tag.
 
2013-06-17 08:11:28 AM  

simusid: A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.


This I have a problem with.

Facial recognition used on license photos?  Not so much.
 
2013-06-17 08:11:48 AM  
I would expect them to do this.  There is no invasion of privacy.  It is expedient.  It is cost effective.
 
2013-06-17 08:12:06 AM  
api.ning.com
Seeing a pattern here.
 
2013-06-17 08:15:39 AM  
Biometrics will work well when politicians and bureaucrats can understand the birthday fallacy. That is to say, never. Of course, there are always going to be a few that understand that the more data they sweep through, the more matches they will find (bad matches, but still matches).
 
2013-06-17 08:22:54 AM  
How dare they look for leads to solve crimes! Who do they think they are?!
 
2013-06-17 08:27:54 AM  
Is your driver's license photo supposed to be private?
 
2013-06-17 08:29:08 AM  

simusid: A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.


He now routinely recalls that conversation with you and snickers to himself.
 
2013-06-17 08:33:07 AM  
"This is a tool to benefit law enforcement, not to violate your privacy rights," said Scott McCallum, head of the facial-recognition unit in Pinellas County, Fla.

Well, I'm convinced. Nothin' to see here folks. Move along.
 
2013-06-17 08:33:10 AM  

theknuckler_33: Is your driver's license photo supposed to be private?


You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
Putting innocent people in databases is essentially equating them with criminals.

Just because it's convenient doesn't make it right - much like incest.
 
2013-06-17 08:33:33 AM  
And people always called me crazy when I gained massive amounts of weight just before it was time to renew my license, and then went on a crash diet immediately afterwards. That coupled with the nose job and reverse nose job did the trick. Who's laughing now?
 
2013-06-17 08:37:18 AM  
This already works in controlled, well-lit settings when the database of potential matches is relatively small. Most experts expect those limitations to be surmounted over the next few years.

Most experts don't understand what happens when you expand the search to millions of people or the limits of cheap state-bought computer systems running Windows 95.
 
2013-06-17 08:41:16 AM  

Kristoph57: simusid: A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.

This is why you always vary your patterns. Never drive the same road at the same time each day. Learn to watch for Crown Vics, Impalas, Chargers, and UC's with tinted windows. Back in if you can as some states don't require front & back license plates. Buy digital scales and a lot of small plastic baggies on a credit card and watch the street out front of your house. If you wake up in the middle of the night, turn on some lights, then flicker them on and off in false morse code.

/really just screw with em
//son of two cops.
///these come in threes.


The office where I pickup my paycheck is right next door to a hydroponic supply place, so the cops probably think Im growing weed.
 
2013-06-17 08:42:03 AM  
You forgot "hot chicks to pull over and hit on," subby.
 
2013-06-17 08:44:09 AM  
I'm having a hard time being outraged by this. Are you outraged that they run your name and license to check for outstanding warrants during routine traffic stops? How is this different?
 
2013-06-17 08:51:05 AM  
I don't see the violation of privacy either. if they saw you on the street minding your own business, not committing any crimes, but they recognised you from a surveillance photo, should they not approach you?

does that work as an analogy? I don't know what point I'm quite making but it's all i got
 
2013-06-17 08:55:17 AM  
The presumption of innocence is dead.  If that doesn't bother you; you are an accomplice.
 
2013-06-17 08:58:16 AM  
Oldiron_79:

The office where I pickup my paycheck is right next door to a hydroponic supply place, so the cops probably think Im growing weed.

"Accidentally" walk in there right after you pick up your check. See if they have any empty boxes because you're moving or some such. Just one or two, and then walk out carrying the boxes & act like they're heavy.


 
2013-06-17 09:08:04 AM  

Public Savant: theknuckler_33: Is your driver's license photo supposed to be private?

You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
Putting innocent people in databases is essentially equating them with criminals.

Just because it's convenient doesn't make it right - much like incest.


uh. no.
 
2013-06-17 09:11:03 AM  

Lady J: I don't see the violation of privacy either. if they saw you on the street minding your own business, not committing any crimes, but they recognised you from a surveillance photo, should they not approach you?

does that work as an analogy? I don't know what point I'm quite making but it's all i got


The fundamentals are the same so it may work.  But, as a professional arguer here on Fark told me, never use analogy in a debate.  The debate generally turns to the validity of the analogy and forgets all about the point gets moved to the side.  I agree with that notion.
 
2013-06-17 09:13:04 AM  

wgb423: The presumption of innocence is dead.  If that doesn't bother you; you are an accomplice.


Police are not required to presume you are innocent.  What does your comment have to do with the article?
 
2013-06-17 09:19:18 AM  

Oldiron_79: Kristoph57: simusid: A local cop told me that they have license plate scanners in their cruisers and routinely if not continuously collect and save a database of what car is where.  This included routinely driving through parking lots of businesses to establish patterns.

This is why you always vary your patterns. Never drive the same road at the same time each day. Learn to watch for Crown Vics, Impalas, Chargers, and UC's with tinted windows. Back in if you can as some states don't require front & back license plates. Buy digital scales and a lot of small plastic baggies on a credit card and watch the street out front of your house. If you wake up in the middle of the night, turn on some lights, then flicker them on and off in false morse code.

/really just screw with em
//son of two cops.
///these come in threes.

The office where I pickup my paycheck is right next door to a hydroponic supply place, so the cops probably think Im growing weed.


While they probably don't pay attention to most businesses parking lots, you can bet your ass they pay attention to hydro shops parking lots.
 
2013-06-17 09:29:14 AM  

Public Savant: theknuckler_33: Is your driver's license photo supposed to be private?

You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.
Putting innocent people in databases is essentially equating them with criminals.

Just because it's convenient doesn't make it right - much like incest.


a) you were already in the database otherwise you wouldn't have a driver's license (or SSN).
2) No, it's not.
 
2013-06-17 09:31:38 AM  
I think trying to legislate the implementation of a technology that improves the capabilities of law enforcement is foolish. The ability to solve or investigate cold cases will cause the luddite states to eventually cave on their moral stand. Also, let us not dismiss the capability of this technology to absolve innocent people that might could been unjustly incarcerated, much like DNA evidence has. For example, if a person under suspicion of committing a crime has no good alibi for "the night in question", but the image evidence shows the individual was not at the scene of the crime, that will be strong evidence that the individual is innocent.

I think the real safeguards against the abuse of this technology will be in the courts. Lawyers will have a field day with disputing the linking of an individual to an image, especially if it was enhanced. Also, I feel it will eventually lead to legislation that restricts the "wide net" approach and will require law enforcement agencies to establish more positive identification than just through FR technology when conducting searches and interrogations.

As for the NSA, not so much. I'd stay away from stores that sell castor beans, comrade.
 
2013-06-17 09:48:49 AM  

Magnus: wgb423: The presumption of innocence is dead.  If that doesn't bother you; you are an accomplice.

Police are not required to presume you are innocent.  What does your comment have to do with the article?


Actually, they are.  That doesn't mean they can't investigate or arrest you if they feel there's enough proof for either, but that doesn't mean you're legally presumed guilty.
 
2013-06-17 10:01:17 AM  

ronaprhys: Magnus: wgb423: The presumption of innocence is dead.  If that doesn't bother you; you are an accomplice.

Police are not required to presume you are innocent.  What does your comment have to do with the article?

Actually, they are.  That doesn't mean they can't investigate or arrest you if they feel there's enough proof for either, but that doesn't mean you're legally presumed guilty.


In the context that evidence is required to initiate an arrest (probable cause) by the police.  But, the presumption of innocence principal is related more to the trial process and not the investigative process.  The police are not required to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt to secure an arrest.  They need only probable cause, standards that don't even meet the preponderance of the evidence.  The arrest is usually the end of their portion of responsibility for actions taken against a suspect.  That is not a presumption of innocence test placed upon police or the investigative process.

We may be splitting hairs.  Or you may cite a case in which presumption of innocence by police IS a standard by which police are required to operate according to the courts.  I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean anything if I am unaware of some specific rule or ruling.
 
2013-06-17 10:17:09 AM  
Hmm.  This is dicey in terms of the 4th Amendment.  You do give up some rights when you get a state-issued driver's license.  Unless it's expressly forbidden by state law, they probably can do it.  It isn't like Minority Report where everyone is being scanned everywhere.

The real problem is that I don't think that facial recognition software is mature enough to rule out bad matches.  Of course, if they use it as a starting point to find possible suspects to start an investigation, it may not be that much of an issue.
 
2013-06-17 10:42:53 AM  
I'm kinda glad they do this.  It would be stupid and inefficient not to.
 
2013-06-17 11:02:54 AM  

slayer199: Hmm.  This is dicey in terms of the 4th Amendment.  You do give up some rights when you get a state-issued driver's license.  Unless it's expressly forbidden by state law, they probably can do it.  It isn't like Minority Report where everyone is being scanned everywhere.

The real problem is that I don't think that facial recognition software is mature enough to rule out bad matches.  Of course, if they use it as a starting point to find possible suspects to start an investigation, it may not be that much of an issue.


You don't "give up some rights" when the state gives you a license to drive. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is a privilege, not a right. By accepting the license, you agree to the state's requirements of that license. People with driver's licenses do not have any more or less Constitutional rights than anyone else.
 
2013-06-17 11:17:13 AM  
When they started using facial recognition software and central driver's license issuance, it was sold as an identity theft protection measure, because under the old system somebody could go in with your stolen SS card and some mail from your box and get a DL. Now they're going to mine the data, which should not be surprising to anybody.

How about as a condition of that privilege you just give a little cheek swab, so they can match the DNA--you know, in case somebody that can defeat the facial recognition comes in? You know, just to make sure....

Catching criminals is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but eroding everybody else's privacy just to make the cop's job easier is not something I'm entirely comfortable with.
 
2013-06-17 11:23:39 AM  

StopLurkListen: slayer199: Hmm.  This is dicey in terms of the 4th Amendment.  You do give up some rights when you get a state-issued driver's license.  Unless it's expressly forbidden by state law, they probably can do it.  It isn't like Minority Report where everyone is being scanned everywhere.

The real problem is that I don't think that facial recognition software is mature enough to rule out bad matches.  Of course, if they use it as a starting point to find possible suspects to start an investigation, it may not be that much of an issue.

You don't "give up some rights" when the state gives you a license to drive. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is a privilege, not a right. By accepting the license, you agree to the state's requirements of that license. People with driver's licenses do not have any more or less Constitutional rights than anyone else.


True.  Point is that you agree to give up some of your freedom when obtaining the privilege of driving in that state.
 
2013-06-17 11:24:08 AM  

StopLurkListen: People with driver's licenses do not have any more or less Constitutional rights than anyone else.


So how do police scan records of 'suspects' who don't drive? They can't.

So they frame some sap who happens to look like the person they're looking for.
 
2013-06-17 11:32:27 AM  

slayer199: StopLurkListen: slayer199: Hmm.  This is dicey in terms of the 4th Amendment.  You do give up some rights when you get a state-issued driver's license.  Unless it's expressly forbidden by state law, they probably can do it.  It isn't like Minority Report where everyone is being scanned everywhere.

The real problem is that I don't think that facial recognition software is mature enough to rule out bad matches.  Of course, if they use it as a starting point to find possible suspects to start an investigation, it may not be that much of an issue.

You don't "give up some rights" when the state gives you a license to drive. Operating a motor vehicle on public roads is a privilege, not a right. By accepting the license, you agree to the state's requirements of that license. People with driver's licenses do not have any more or less Constitutional rights than anyone else.

True.  Point is that you agree to give up some of your freedom when obtaining the privilege of driving in that state.


Which freedom are you talking about? What freedom did you have that you don't have once you get a driver's license?
 
2013-06-17 11:40:13 AM  

slayer199: The real problem is that I don't think that facial recognition software is mature enough to rule out bad matches.  Of course, if they use it as a starting point to find possible suspects to start an investigation, it may not be that much of an issue.


Has it gotten better in the past 4 years? Last renewal in 2009, you couldn't smile for your DL pic 'cause that wouldn't work with the facial recognition software.

Mister gurmpy eg:
 lafinlarry.net
 
2013-06-17 11:49:53 AM  

yet_another_wumpus: Biometrics will work well when politicians and bureaucrats can understand the birthday fallacy. That is to say, never. Of course, there are always going to be a few that understand that the more data they sweep through, the more matches they will find (bad matches, but still matches).


Is it okay that I half agree with you.  I don't really trust the police to be competent, but at the same time, I could see them making worse decisions without this data.
 
2013-06-17 12:26:08 PM  

Morchella: Has it gotten better in the past 4 years? Last renewal in 2009, you couldn't smile for your DL pic 'cause that wouldn't work with the facial recognition software.


I woudl go over the top super poutty face if they said that.

or maybe just go in with monkey tail beard...
 
2013-06-17 12:30:30 PM  
Statism, just a shiny new bauble everyday. At what level of intrusion will the apologists finally say enough? I guess we are nowhere near bottom, but damn, people seem very happy to cuddle up to safety bear.
 
2013-06-17 01:01:39 PM  
knuckledraggin.com
 
2013-06-17 01:13:36 PM  

StopLurkListen: Which freedom are you talking about? What freedom did you have that you don't have once you get a driver's license?


As soon as you get any type of state/government-issued ID, you give up some anonymity.  Your face is tied to your name.   That's more of what I'm talking about.  Of course, now the state can actually use those photos with facial recognition software.

Is it a constitutional right?  Probably not.  But what are you going to do...not travel or drive?
 
2013-06-17 01:23:20 PM  

ikanreed: yet_another_wumpus: Biometrics will work well when politicians and bureaucrats can understand the birthday fallacy. That is to say, never. Of course, there are always going to be a few that understand that the more data they sweep through, the more matches they will find (bad matches, but still matches).

Is it okay that I half agree with you.  I don't really trust the police to be competent, but at the same time, I could see them making worse decisions without this data.


You have to understand that there are going to be plenty of false positives, and that they will be presumed guilty and rammed into jail.  DWB just took a whole new meaning.
 
2013-06-17 01:33:12 PM  
- Buy that tinting thing that makes it hard for digital cameras to read your license plate or figure out a way to turn your license plate into a captcha
- Wear a mask
- Adjust your seat and wear a hat so that your face isn't visible
 
2013-06-17 01:33:55 PM  
- Make a cutout and put it in the car
 
2013-06-17 02:45:25 PM  
"Person of Interest"  (T.V. Show) is no longer fictional. It's a documentory.
 
2013-06-17 05:11:52 PM  
These organizations are going to use all the data mining tools available today for the same reason dogs lick their balls - because they can.
 
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