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(Opposing Views)   Is this man facing two years in jail for a.) theft, b.) assault or c.) locking up kids who were vandalizing his home in a closet until police could arrive?   (opposingviews.com) divider line 109
    More: Stupid, vandals, jail  
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7430 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jun 2013 at 3:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-06-16 12:26:58 PM  
11 votes:
Aarontology

Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

You are permitted to act within a reasonable way to defend yourself, your family and property. IMO, he showed great restraint. Schools have treated kids like them much more harshly for wearing banned clothing or even drawing a picture of a gun.

Since they had hammers, technically they had weapons. Would it have made a difference if they had guns? How about the fact they trespassed, broke and entered and committed malicious destruction of property? Also the simple fact that these innocent angels came up with the plan to break into a neighborhood home to wreck as much mayhem on it as possible and carried it out?

What was he supposed to do, stand there and let them run away? Maybe he didn't know where they lived. Then, the cops and he would have to spend days tracking them down.

He called the cops. He put them in a closet. He did not tie them up nor physically harm them. Personally, seeing that much damage done to a parents home by the little f**ks might have driven me to physical violence.

Stupidity like this caused great confusion and a real mess in the 70's when criminals started suing their victims who defended themselves or who physically chased them down and caught them. (Store personnel especially.) Eventually, that would lead to the creation of 'zero tolerance' laws that has packed our jails and prisons.

Had I done something like that as a kid, my folks would have torn my arse up! The heck with looking for a stupid excuse to file charges against the person who caught me.

That's like this stupid shiat with squatters. You go away on vacation and come home to find people living in your house, messing with your things. You can't go in there with a baseball bat and chase them out because they have 'rights'.

Funny, with all of these 'rights' available, the US has one of the highest populations in prisons in the world. We are also the most litigious nation on the planet.

The man did right. He prevented the 'armed' vandals from escaping without violence and turned them over to the cops. Now, he and his dad will have to go through the lengthy and expensive process of repairing the damage done to the house and probably have to sue the parents to be reimbursed for the expense.

Not to mention the emotional trauma of having one's sanctity of home violated.

I got robbed once in my own apartment. I stuck the very sharp tip of my switchblade under the chin of the thief and very nearly pushed it up into his nasal cavity. Even though he fled, was caught and arrested, I never did recover the money he stole.

Technically, I could have been arrested -- for using an illegal weapon when he had none -- but he was younger and stronger than I and could have done more harm to me if I had simply fought him.

The cops wisely ignored my use of the knife. The thief complained about it when arrested, but the judge figured he was lucky I hadn't sliced him up.

Another time, working in a department store, I had to watch a thief run off with a couple of hundred bucks worth of goods because I was NOT allowed to chase him beyond the store doors due to the possibility of him suing the store if I handled him roughly in the parking lot. (I didn't consider bouncing his head off a car or two as being 'roughly treated).

The Division of Youth Services needs to pay a visit to the parents of those kids.
2013-06-16 02:35:48 PM  
8 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.


If you really think the cops are going to take fingerprints, pictures, etc. then you are deluded.  All they do is show up and fill out a report.  I've had stuff stolen before, I even pointed out to the officer where there would almost have to be finger prints and he didn't care a rip.  He just filled out the form and handed me a copy for the insurance company.  The only way they call in the crime lab is if it's a big scene with a murder, etc.

These kids are a product of the people posting upthread.  In a world where people say the adult here was wrong, kids have learned to exploit this to their benefit.  They grow up without the fear of being hammered when they do things.  Even back in my day, you pulled this stuff and not only would the homeowner grab you and likely hit you a few times, he'd have drug you back to your parents home where they would have apologized to him, thanked him for bringing their kid home, arranged to make payments on the damage, and then they'd have put the biggest punishment and likely spanking down on you they could.  Did we get out of line?  Heck no, the punishment scared us.  We grew up to not do this crap.  Kids today, they can get away with anything and they know it.  All because of the idiots in this thread who think they have rights and think the guy was wrong.  Spare the rod and spoil the child.  True then, true now.
2013-06-16 12:26:34 PM  
7 votes:
citizens arrest?
2013-06-16 06:28:11 PM  
6 votes:
Mental note... if one of Infernalist's kids is raping my wife, preemptively kill Infernalist because he will irrationally defend scum that deserves to die rather than having the honor to cull his own like a good family would.
2013-06-16 01:53:28 PM  
6 votes:
Common Law[edit]
Most states have codified the common law rule that a warrantless arrest may be made by a private person for a felony, misdemeanor or "breach of peace."[42] A breach of peace covers a multitude of violations in which the Supreme Court has even included a misdemeanor seatbelt violation punishable only by a fine. The term historically included theft, "nightwalking," prostitution and playing card and dice games.[43]

so yah
instead, he was illegally arrest for a crime which he didnt commit. those charges will be dropped and he will sure and win for wrongful arrest.

turns out, the home owner committed no crime and arrested 4 felons in the act.
TADA

the cops were being pressured by butthurt parents over their little snowflakes being arrested.
(would bet money on this)
2013-06-16 01:29:08 PM  
6 votes:

thamike: The_Sponge: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Kidnapping?  He called the cops.

The kidnapping had already happened when he called the cops.



It's not kidnapping.....it's detaining them until the police arrive.
2013-06-16 12:24:42 PM  
6 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Self-defense.... four pre-teens, three armed with hammers all of whom are acting in a dangerous manner... if he keeps his mouth shut and lets his lawyer deal with the situation he'll get off.
2013-06-16 01:28:26 PM  
5 votes:
Ugh....I can't believe you guys are blaming the property owner.

Hopefully you'll think differently if some little shiats ever vandalize your property.
2013-06-16 05:10:34 PM  
4 votes:
I read the article to my buddy.  He said if these kids had lived in the town he had lived in growing up, the town would have ostracized them.  Said there were a store owners that would refuse to serve the kids and would ask them to leave their stores or tell the parents the kids would need to wait outside.  The local civic hall would also refuse the kids to have attended any social events held there for a solid year or more depending on how serious their crime was.  He said he found out the hard way when he was 13 by putting a bleach bomb inside of a mail box and blowing it up, was caught and was given 20 hours community service.  The worst part was the movie house wouldn't let him in for a year and he couldn't go into any of the stores or eat out with his parents at the local diner.   Being banished by the town was worse than the beating his father gave him, he says.

Of course that's small town america.  Would never happen in a suburb or town larger than 1000 people
2013-06-16 05:07:11 PM  
4 votes:
"Bowler said his two boys are traumatized by the incident and their mother showed 13WHAM News a picture of the incident that she says one of them drew.  Bowler also provided 13WHAM News with a photo of the neck of one of his boys because he said Daniels grabbed his son by the neck and left a mark.

"Oh they're traumatized, they haven't been to school they don't sleep until the sun comes up," said Bowler."

Jesus farking Christ!!! If my kids did that, they would be so traumatized by their punishment from me, that the dude who put them in a closet would seem like the tooth fairy.

/will never have kids.Society is way to f'ed up
2013-06-16 01:31:57 PM  
4 votes:
Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kidnapping


It wasn't kidnapping!
2013-06-16 12:52:35 PM  
4 votes:
The man who detained the kids did nothing wrong. Nothing. The father should be charged for child neglect.
2013-06-16 09:36:01 AM  
4 votes:
If I were the parents of those kids I would be WAY too embarrassed at my bad parenting to bring additional attention to it by trying to have arrested the person who stopped my kids from continuing their destruction. I guess some people have no shame.
2013-06-16 09:15:30 PM  
3 votes:
I would hope the press follows up on this story - I want to see what happens to those kids & the guy
2013-06-16 07:15:42 PM  
3 votes:
Here is a local article with more info. The comments are worth reading.

A quote from the "parent" of the little shiats:

"I understand they were in the wrong, but there are other ways to handle it," he said. "He (Daniels) knew who the kids were. It's not like they were strangers. And send the kids home and call the cops then. You don't sit there and torment them and tell them you're going to bash their skulls in with a hammer."
Bowler said Daniels grabbed the neck of one of his sons and left a mark. He said that his boys are traumatized and that Daniels should have faced more charges.


Well, Mr. Bowler, I believe I understand why your children are such little assholes.
2013-06-16 06:26:45 PM  
3 votes:

Infernalist: .

I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth if you're lucky or in a hole in the ground if you're not.  Don't fark with a father's kids.  You just don't do it.  You 'will' end up dead if you fark with the wrong guy's kids.


I'm just glad my dad's not like you. I'm sure I'm a better person for it.
2013-06-16 06:15:14 PM  
3 votes:
A real father teaches his kid that actions have consequences, and stupidity and criminal behavior usually has harsh consequences.  You bail out and enable your kid all you want, you're not doing them any favors.
2013-06-16 06:13:58 PM  
3 votes:

Infernalist: mrschwen: Infernalist: Maul555: Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.

Then keep your kids off my property.   And if you ever did try to follow through with the 2nd part of your brilliant plan, you would rightfully be shot dead in the doorway.

Nah, I'd just bring a gun with me and shoot you first.  Plead temporary insanity.  Don't fark with my kids.

An insanity plea wouldn't work.

I really wouldn't care.  Fathers will do hard time and willingly so if you fark with their kids.  Someone without the legal authority locks my kids up?  He's going to get the asskicking of his life and if he looks even slightly like he's going to resist, I'll just shoot him dead.

Do not fark with a father's kids.


If you're first reaction to someone putting your kid in a closet (oh, the horror!) when your kid was completely out of control trashing that someone's house with a hammer was to go ballistic on the person who put your kid in the closet, I think society would know where to look to figure out why the kid was such a destructive ass already in life.
2013-06-16 06:12:55 PM  
3 votes:

T Baggins: Snapper Carr: N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.35 : NY Code - Section 140.35: Arrest without a warrant; by person acting other than as a police officer or a peace officer....
2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the
reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight
or other factors rendering such procedure impractical.
....
IANAL but it seems like he's covered.

IANALE, but I don't think this applies unless he informed the kids that he was placing them under arrest. This sort of citizen's arrest is how store security can legally detain shoplifters in some circumstances and locales, but there are still rules like this governing the arrests.


Look at item 2 on there again: it specifically includes exceptions for encountering "physical resistance" or "flight", both of which applied here since the little shiats were armed with hammers and were trying to get away.

That's moot though.  When the guy stuffed them in that closet he specifically told them "you can stay in there until the police arrive."  That's good enough for a citizen's arrest notice since he literally was telling them they were being detained so that they could be dealt with by law enforcement, which is the entire point of citizen's arrest.


Gyrfalcon: In no state may an arrest for a misdemeanor be made without it occurring in the presence of the arrestor.[43] In the case of felonies, a private person may make an arrest for a felony occurring outside his presence but the rule is that a felony must have, in fact, been committed . For example, imagine a suspect has been seen on surveillance video vandalizing a building to the extent that the arrestor believes it rises to a felony due to the damage. If he finds the suspect and makes the arrest but it later turns out that it was misdemeanor damage, the arrestor is liable for false arrest because a felony had not, in fact, been committed.


I bolded that first line, since that's the actual relevant one.  A citizen's arrest for misdemeanor crimes is allowed if the crime is witnessed by the person doing the arrest.  In this case, the homeowner came back home and saw with his own two eyes kids with hammers going to town on his house.  Even if that doesn't rise to the level of felony vandalism (which I think it does given the photos) he's in the clear.


One last thing to note regarding the charges, I'm hoping that this is actually a play by the DA's office to support this guy in a roundabout way.  Ages ago a friend of a friend had someone jump off a bridge in front of his car.  He wasn't arrested, but the DA charged him with vehicular manslaughter and scheduled a Grand Jury hearing that same day... where the case was thrown out.  He specifically told the driver that he did this because the Grand Jury formally declaring that the case had no merit would dramatically undercut any possible future civil claims against the driver.

It would be sweet sweet Schadenfreude to see that come true.  The DA "caves" to the angry parents of the delinquents only for the Grand Jury to swiftly dismiss the charge, leaving the stupid parents with almost no chance of bringing any sort of civil suit against the homeowner.
2013-06-16 04:46:36 PM  
3 votes:
N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.30 : NY Code - Section 140.30: Arrest without a warrant; by any person; when and where authorized

1. Subject to the provisions of subdivision two, any person may
arrest another person (a) for a felony when the latter has in fact
committed such felony, and (b) for any offense when the latter has in
fact committed such offense in his presence.
2. Such an arrest, if for a felony, may be made anywhere in the
state. If the arrest is for an offense other than a felony, it may be
made only in the county in which such offense was committed.]

N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.35 : NY Code - Section 140.35: Arrest without a warrant; by person acting other than as a police officer or a peace officer; when and how made

1. A person may arrest another person for an offense pursuant to
section 140.30 at any hour of any day or night.
2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the
reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight
or other factors rendering such procedure impractical.
3. In order to effect such an arrest, such person may use such
physical force as is justifiable pursuant to subdivision four of section
35.30 of the penal law.


IANAL but it seems like he's covered.
2013-06-16 04:30:31 PM  
3 votes:
BTW folks.... the next time you find yourself in such a situation, please grab your camera or camcorder. The little snots can run away and deny all they want, but they cannot explain the nice 35mm or 1080i footage you will get of them standing in the house, with paint on their clothes and hammers in their hands. And, if they are crazy enough to decide they might need to take care of that camera, THEN you have the right to wield a hammer in return and herd them into a closet in self defense. All clean and legal. And with video to prove they did it.

/cameras... proving people are evil shiats since 1839
2013-06-16 04:25:16 PM  
3 votes:
8-10... I am looking at my seven-year-old as he "feeds" his stuffed bunny pudding. What horrible homes are those kids in? When children act so maliciously, CPS should be summoned to do a thorough investigation. Something is very wrong.
2013-06-16 02:16:58 PM  
3 votes:

thamike: Bathia_Mapes: You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

Actually, it does matter.  That's why he's charged with endangering children.  Kidnapping would never stick in court, and if these were adults armed with hammers, his trapping them in a closet would have never been questioned.


Really... its sounds like the father pressured the police to file the child endangerment charges so he'd have some leverage against the homeowner. I doubt there's anything that can be done about the charges against the kids but I bet he's hoping that the thousands of dollars in civil charges can be put on the table if he drops the child endangerment charges.
2013-06-16 02:07:11 PM  
3 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.


I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.
2013-06-16 01:58:40 PM  
3 votes:

thamike: namatad: instead, he was illegally arrest for a crime which he didnt commit.

He was charged with endangering a child, not with false imprisonment.  The kids were charged with multiple felonies.

Anybody else here care to admit that they really don't give a sh*t about the people involved in this story?


Meh, he didn't endanger those kids, they endangered themselves.
2013-06-16 01:46:31 PM  
3 votes:

thamike: The kidnapping had already happened when he called the cops.


No. Just no.

Words mean things.

Now just because your ego was bruised by pointing this out don't go screaming that you were assaulted.
2013-06-16 01:27:51 PM  
3 votes:

quickdraw: citizens arrest?


This was my thought.

The father quoted should be shamed out of the county.  All that damage plus graffiti defaming women?  At ages 8-10?  Way to raise some budding career criminals.  We'll be seeing him on the news in ten years "well, he got into a little trouble  when he was younger."
2013-06-16 12:57:52 PM  
3 votes:
CPS should open a case on the children's parents.
2013-06-16 12:28:48 PM  
3 votes:
So is a citizen's arrest something that only exists in movies and TV shows?  If he hadn't of corralled them what are the chances the police would have spent much manpower investigating and tracking down suspected property vandals?
2013-06-16 09:35:46 AM  
3 votes:
Should have shot the little bastards.
2013-06-16 09:24:10 AM  
3 votes:
Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.
2013-06-16 11:03:26 PM  
2 votes:

advres: Arthur Jumbles:
Really... its sounds like the father pressured the police to file the child endangerment charges so he'd have some leverage against the homeowner. I doubt there's anything that can be done about the charges against the kids but I bet he's hoping that the thousands of dollars in civil charges can be put on the table if he drops the child endangerment charges.

You can't press charges for child endangerment brainiac.  The father could pressure the state to file charges but the civil suit has zero to do with the criminal suit and the stupid kids father has zero say in how that goes.  You can't "drop" a state brought child endangerment charge to mitigate civil suit fines.


But they could file a civil suit for the ongoing emotional and psychological distress and trauma their innocent little angels are experiencing due to being forcibly restrained and incarcerated. I am thinking that the drawing that one of the kids made was done at the parents' behest to add credibility to such a claim.
2013-06-16 10:33:02 PM  
2 votes:

Infernalist: WorldCitizen: Infernalist: .

I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth if you're lucky or in a hole in the ground if you're not.  Don't fark with a father's kids.  You just don't do it.  You 'will' end up dead if you fark with the wrong guy's kids.

I'm just glad my dad's not like you. I'm sure I'm a better person for it.

I don't really give a shiat, but thanks for offering up your completely irrelevant opinion.

Personally, I think if you're okay with a stranger locking your kids up in a closet, you're a shiatty father and person in general.

But hey, you go ahead and hate my approach to kids and I'll hate your approach to kids and we'll happily scorn each other.

But, either way, don't farking touch my kids.


Looks like we found the proud parent of the kids from the article.
2013-06-16 09:02:27 PM  
2 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well.



It's completely legal to detain someone who is actively committing a crime against you.

I guess he could face charges for threatening a child with a hammer, if there is any evidence that actually occurred.  But not kidnapping.  That's silly.
2013-06-16 08:07:27 PM  
2 votes:
I'm curious on the whole "citizens arrest" part as well.  Isn't the whole point of that being you can detain someone you see *allegedly* commiting a crime until the cops show up?

That's not kidnapping unless you actually don't call the cops.

Down here it may take hours for cops to show up for non life-threatening issues.  If someone physically assults someone at a bar, there's going to be a bunch of people holding him down... and, yeah, maybe even locking him in the back until the cops show up.

Kinda thought that was the whole point of citizens arrest.  Detaining a suspect until cops could arrive.  Once they do, its their deal... release them, arrest them, whatever.

But you do want citizens on the look out to a certain extent, and sometimes that means detaining someone.

Most police forces are understaffed.  God knows my city's is.
2013-06-16 07:58:52 PM  
2 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


Have fun in jail for assault.

Infernalist: He's going to get the asskicking of his life and if he looks even slightly like he's going to resist, I'll just shoot him dead.


Murder One and you'd face the death penalty. All because your kids acted like spoiled brats and you decided to act up. You must be a really crappy father.
2013-06-16 06:32:04 PM  
2 votes:
Just remember, if Infernalist's kids do anything that by any normal measures deem them unfit to live in our society, you have to cull Infernalist too... he just put you on notice.

BTW Infernalist, a good father cleans up his own messes --- and as a result has children that don't need to be cleaned up.
2013-06-16 06:21:41 PM  
2 votes:
Bathia_Mapes:

... I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.
Good lord people are really this deluded? What kind of cellar dweller really believes cops would put any resources into this? ... someone who has watched far to much TV and had far to little real life experience.
2013-06-16 05:21:13 PM  
2 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


Speaking as a father I'd have no problem with my kids being locked in a closet to wait for the police.   They weren't in any physical danger.

And beating them?  Nope.  I'd go for public humiliation.   Something like a sandwich board with what they did on it right in front of their school and again somewhere populated so they could feel the burn of society's wrath.   Probably some therapy too to find out what led them to do such a stupid thing.
2013-06-16 05:07:51 PM  
2 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


Then keep your kids off my property.   And if you ever did try to follow through with the 2nd part of your brilliant plan, you would rightfully be shot dead in the doorway.
2013-06-16 04:40:27 PM  
2 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Children should not be untouchable.   He should have had full authority to kick their asses.   I can't believe this shiat!
2013-06-16 04:31:08 PM  
2 votes:

Mrbogey: The man who detained the kids did nothing wrong. Nothing. The father should be charged for child neglect.


Absolutely agree, and I'm completely shocked by the parents response. When I was a kid, playing kickball, I broke a neighbor's window. Of course, being kids, we all screw. I told my dad what happened, he walked me over to the house, he had me apologize, and I paid for the window.

If I had broken into someone's house, destroyed the place, splattered paint everywhere, and got caught and held until police showed up, you can bet your ASS my father wouldn't be pressing charges against the person who held me. If my daughter did something like that, after she was returned to me, I would bought cleaning supplies, marched my kid over to that person, made her apologize, and sat there while she did what she could to clean. That is, after getting the other parents on the phone and talking to them about pooling together the money to pay for repairs.

It absolutely horrifies me to read the comments on here about how this guy was in the wrong somehow. The parents of these kids? THEY are the ones who should be getting locked up and charges against them pressed. Where the hell were they? Why were their kids out at 9pm destroying someone's house?

Personally I'm all for having parents face charges when their kids do evil shiat. Yeah, I realize that means if my daughter did something horrible I'd face charges! All the more reason to raise her to be a good human being.
2013-06-16 04:31:05 PM  
2 votes:

remus: Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.

If you really think the cops are going to take fingerprints, pictures, etc. then you are deluded.  All they do is show up and fill out a report.  I've had stuff stolen before, I even pointed out to the officer where there would almost have to be finger prints and he didn't care a rip.  He just filled out the form and handed me a copy for the insurance company.  The only way they call in the crime lab is if it's a big scene with a murder, etc.

These kids are a product of the people posting upthread.  In a world where people say the adult here was wrong, kids have learned to exploit this to their benefit.  They grow up without the fear of being hammered when they do things.  Even back in my day, you pulled this stuff and not only would the homeowner grab you and likely hit you a few times, he'd have drug you back to your parents home where they would have apologized to him, thanked him for bringing their kid home, arrang ...


These kids are exceptional, not the norm. You had little psychos back in your day too. There are always some like that. But our population is larger than it used to be and our media now reports on things like this, so you get the feeling that the per capita incidence is up.
2013-06-16 04:25:24 PM  
2 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Honestly, I think you're wrong here. When it comes to stopping damage to my home, i should have the right to detain the subject or subjects until the law comes. They are guilty of tresspassing, vandalism, and so on.

Also, it's not "taking the law into your own hands" when acting to protect your life or property and holding the subjects for police. That is, or should be, considered basic civic duty.
2013-06-16 02:17:24 PM  
2 votes:
The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.
2013-06-16 02:00:45 PM  
2 votes:
Kidnapping?  Really.

/not a jury that would convict on that
//if I was on the jury, I'd laugh the prosecutor out of the courtroom
///another reason I'll never be selected
2013-06-16 01:59:43 PM  
2 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.


Actually, it does matter.  That's why he's charged with endangering children.  Kidnapping would never stick in court, and if these were adults armed with hammers, his trapping them in a closet would have never been questioned.
2013-06-16 01:50:46 PM  
2 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Citizen's arrest?
Stand your ground?
Self defense?

If he had shot and killed them in self-defense, he would probably be ok now.
2013-06-16 01:16:59 PM  
2 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.



Kidnapping?  He called the cops.
2013-06-16 11:43:54 AM  
2 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Yeah, if you walked in your bathroom and saw this you might disagree:
www.13wham.com
2013-06-17 04:16:42 AM  
1 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.


What kind of fantasy world do you live in where cops take fingerprints for property crimes?

My god you're a farking idiot.
2013-06-17 02:01:13 AM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth if you're lucky or in a hole in the ground if you're not. Don't fark with a father's kids. You just don't do it. You 'will' end up dead if you fark with the wrong guy's kids.


If you actually behave this way in real life, what will happen instead is that you will end up in bankruptcy court after the inevitable civil judgment comes down.  If you're really lucky, these two courts will be in the same building, so you won't even need to offer blow jobs at the bus station for cab fare.  Your life will still be pretty much over either way.  Maybe your kids will support you in your old age, but I doubt it.
2013-06-17 12:08:05 AM  
1 votes:

fredklein: Maybe if they didn't let little crimes (like, say, stealing a bike?) be profitable for the criminals, people would , I dunno, learn to not be criminals?


Precisely. The same "broken window" theory that police and politicians are so eager to embrace when seeking budget increases.

But in this case, with these particular punks, it's a potentially valid deterrent.
2013-06-16 11:44:30 PM  
1 votes:
Citizens arrest is related to rights under common law unless there is statute law that says otherwise.

The ancient conditions of common law citizen arrest was that it could be used to prevent additional property damage. i.e. if the person had not been stopped, it would be clear that felony damage would have continued.

The fact they were young is another issue.  Around here the kids are learning to say "I'm only 13" which means the police can't even detain them for criminal acts even when the kids look 17.  However they can be taken into custody for a psych eval.

My grandfather cautioned my uncles, "any man in this town who has a belt can and will beat you for doing anything wrong and will do it with by blessing"
2013-06-16 11:20:17 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs: AndreMA: downstairs: "They're just going to say they got the bike for Christmas." Cop left shaking his head.

Cop is morally but not legally an accessory after the fact. Bear that in mind if you ever encountering him bleeding to death at the roadside.

Eh, not going there.  Our cops are doing the best they can.  Kinda have their hands full with all the murder and the like.


Maybe if they didn't let little crimes (like, say, stealing a bike?) be profitable for the criminals, people would , I dunno, learn to not be criminals?
2013-06-16 10:42:55 PM  
1 votes:

quickdraw: citizens arrest?


That's what I was thinking too.

I don't know about New York law, but in Kentucky an average citizen can make a citizens arrest if they catch somebody in the act of committing a felony, but they have to immediately contact police to hand them over to them and let them handle it (also, a citizen's arrest is strict liability about false arrest, so if it turns out not to be a felony then you're in a heap of trouble, even if you thought it was that at the time, while a peace officer doesn't have to worry about that as long as they had probable cause to believe it was a felony).

You call 911 the moment you realize you're being robbed, you find the robbers, you detain them, the police show up, they take the robbers away.

Then again, this is New York, and while Lord Bloomberg only directly rules part of it, he tries hard to get the entire place turned into the Nanny State.

Also, yet another Opposing Views link?  That site is trolleriffic with the derp in general.  I'd trust a link coming from reputable media instead of a "your blog sucks" place like that, which basically passes off blog entries as news.
2013-06-16 10:27:53 PM  
1 votes:

PlasticMoby: There sure are an awful lot of "tough guys" here willing to assault or murder children over petty vandalism. "Welcome to Fark",I guess.


Did you look at the pictures? Hardly petty. They ruined the house. Not to mention that they entered this house armed. No I wouldn't want them beaten or killed, but let's not pretend they're kids being kids. They're felons. And they're damned lucky a few minutes in a closet is all he did to them.
2013-06-16 10:16:09 PM  
1 votes:

GreenSun: Really deserves the stupid tag. The police should have arrested the vandals instead and not the victim.


If only there were some kind of article that you could have read with details.
You know, about who was arrested, why, and what they were charged with.

If only these headlines actually linked somewhere.
oh well, back to reading horoscopes
2013-06-16 10:08:06 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: hoihoi8: Infernalist: mrschwen: Infernalist: Maul555: Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.

Then keep your kids off my property.   And if you ever did try to follow through with the 2nd part of your brilliant plan, you would rightfully be shot dead in the doorway.

Nah, I'd just bring a gun with me and shoot you first.  Plead temporary insanity.  Don't fark with my kids.

An insanity plea wouldn't work.

I really wouldn't care.  Fathers will do hard time and willingly so if you fark with their kids.  Someone without the legal authority locks my kids up?  He's going to get the asskicking of his life and if he looks even slightly like he's going to resist, I'll just shoot him dead.

Do not fark with a father's kids.

Don't raise shiaty kids and I won't fark with them. You sound like an overprotective helicopter parent. My dad would have thanked the dude and whoooped our ass on top of a minimum 1 year grounding.

I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth if you're lucky or in a hole in the ground if you're not.  Don't fark with a father's kids.  You just don't do it.  You 'will' end up dead if you fark with the wrong guy's kids.


Now farkied as "Serious moron helicopter parent farktard". In red 3.
2013-06-16 09:10:16 PM  
1 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well.


It's completely legal to detain someone who is actively committing a crime against you.

I guess he could face charges for threatening a child with a hammer, if there is any evidence that actually occurred.  But not kidnapping.  That's silly.


Yeah, like I said--kidnapping or false imprisonment would never stick.  The more I think about it, the more it seems the cops did this guy a favor by bringing endangerment charges.  After those have been dismissed, the parents really don't have much choice other than paying the damages, or face a civil suit with an even higher price tag (mental anguish, loss of time, loss of wages, etc.)  Kid's won't be felony-beefed up either.  Community service, counseling, juvi probation, house arrest, etc.
2013-06-16 09:00:43 PM  
1 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Citizens Arrest
2013-06-16 08:47:36 PM  
1 votes:
I guess he should have just farking shot and killed them.
2013-06-16 08:45:07 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Maul555: Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.

Then keep your kids off my property.   And if you ever did try to follow through with the 2nd part of your brilliant plan, you would rightfully be shot dead in the doorway.

Nah, I'd just bring a gun with me and shoot you first.  Plead temporary insanity.  Don't fark with my kids.


Your kids shouldn't be farking with other people's homes, tough guy.
2013-06-16 08:17:17 PM  
1 votes:
Clyde, NY is a little burp of a village on the edge of the Montezuma Swamp. It has 2300 residents. It has no police force. The area is covered by Wayne County Sheriffs and NY Troopers. We're talking serious sticks here.
2013-06-16 07:53:02 PM  
1 votes:
"Children of the parents pressured authorities to make the arrest..."

He needs to go over and take a baseball bat to these parents.

// The little monsters are enabled by idiotic, permissive parenting where their little precious snow-flakes are never guilty of anything - no matter now strong the evidence.
2013-06-16 07:45:39 PM  
1 votes:
Another comment from the above posted article cracks me up:

I tell you what Mr. Bowler, someone needs to install a little fear into your hoodlums so they wont do stuff like this again. Apparently you have failed as a parent. You should have taken your boys home and reamed them out, so much that they wished they were back in that closet.
2013-06-16 07:11:54 PM  
1 votes:

Azlefty:  While it would really piss me off, but I really doubt I would threaten 8-10 year old kids with a hammer over it; the parents maybe, the kids no.

The kids were not hurt.  They were not allowed to leave until the cops showed up, but they didn't get shot, they didn't go the hospital, they aren't walking on crutches, they don't even have any bruises to show.

All he did was make sure they were still there when the cops showed up, so they would be punished for their crimes, and he's the one in jail.

What that leads to is either thugs being allowed to do whatever they want, or people taking care of the problem on their own without calling the cops.  Next time, he has a lot of incentive to just shoot them and be done with it.

Infernalist: You really don't get it. If you fark with my kids, not only will I happily murder your ass, but I'll smile as I do hard time for it. Some things are worth doing time over.


That "My kids can do anything they want and if you try to stop them, I'll kill you" attitude is exactly why these kids are getting away with trashing a house.  Someone should shoot you and your kids, both.

Gyrfalcon: Man, I love all the GED lawyers springing up around Fark lately.


You're usually pretty bright, but the idea that "only people with law degrees are allowed to have an opinion" isn't up at your usual standards.

2013-06-16 07:05:21 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


You sound as shiatty a parent as the parents of these worthless thugs in training. You don't beat up a victim of a crime. If my children were involved, they would be forced, by me, to offer their free labor, along with my money to buy replacement materials, in exchange for dropping charges. They would learn a very valuable lesson in how actions have consequences without having to be ruined by the penal system.
2013-06-16 06:36:50 PM  
1 votes:
I'm guessing if irrational hotheadedness is a genetic trait, there's a good chance Infernalist's kids are going to end up in jail anyway. He might as well end up there beside them when irrationally attacking the victims of his kids' crimes.
2013-06-16 06:35:28 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Airius: Mental note... if one of Infernalist's kids is raping my wife, preemptively kill Infernalist because he will irrationally defend scum that deserves to die rather than having the honor to cull his own like a good family would.

You can try.

AndreMA: Infernalist: I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth

...and you'll be spending a long time in prison, ITG, sparing your kids frome further expose to your piss-poor parenting skills.

You really don't get it.  If you fark with my kids, not only will I happily murder your ass, but I'll smile as I do hard time for it.   Some things are worth doing time over.


And you're defending -- by your own words -- mini-Dahmers.

I'm generally opposed to preventive executions.

/generally
2013-06-16 06:28:50 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: I don't give a shiat if they're mini-dahmers, if you touch my kids, you'll be spitting up teeth


...and you'll be spending a long time in prison, ITG, sparing your kids frome further expose to your piss-poor parenting skills.
2013-06-16 06:26:06 PM  
1 votes:

yukichigai: T Baggins: Snapper Carr: N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.35 : NY Code - Section 140.35: Arrest without a warrant; by person acting other than as a police officer or a peace officer....
2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the
reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight
or other factors rendering such procedure impractical.
....
IANAL but it seems like he's covered.

IANALE, but I don't think this applies unless he informed the kids that he was placing them under arrest. This sort of citizen's arrest is how store security can legally detain shoplifters in some circumstances and locales, but there are still rules like this governing the arrests.

Look at item 2 on there again: it specifically includes exceptions for encountering "physical resistance" or "flight", both of which applied here since the little shiats were armed with hammers and were trying to get away.

That's moot though.  When the guy stuffed them in that closet he specifically told them "you can stay in there until the police arrive."  That's good enough for a citizen's arrest notice since he literally was telling them they were being detained so that they could be dealt with by law enforcement, which is the entire point of citizen's arrest.


Gyrfalcon: In no state may an arrest for a misdemeanor be made without it occurring in the presence of the arrestor.[43] In the case of felonies, a private person may make an arrest for a felony occurring outside his presence but the rule is that a felony must have, in fact, been committed . For example, imagine a suspect has been seen on surveillance video vandalizing a building to the extent that the arrestor believes it rises to a felony due to the damage. If he finds the suspect and makes the arrest but it later turns out that it was misdemeanor damage, the arrestor is liable for false arrest because a felony had not, in fact, been committed.

I bolded that first line, since that's the actual relevant one.  A citizen's ...


FTA:  "Clyde Village Police returned the children to their parents, who live just down the street, and filed felony criminal charges of 2nd degree burglary and 2nd degree criminal mischief. "

They did in fact commit a felony.  The statute makes no exceptions for the person arrested being a juvenile.
2013-06-16 06:24:06 PM  
1 votes:

Lost Thought 00: TuteTibiImperes: So is a citizen's arrest something that only exists in movies and TV shows?

Yes, it is.


No, its quite real. Google 'California Penal Code section 837' for an example statue.
2013-06-16 06:23:34 PM  
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: Isn't that called kidnapping?


In many states it's called citizen's arrest.
2013-06-16 06:11:20 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: mrschwen: Infernalist: Maul555: Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.

Then keep your kids off my property.   And if you ever did try to follow through with the 2nd part of your brilliant plan, you would rightfully be shot dead in the doorway.

Nah, I'd just bring a gun with me and shoot you first.  Plead temporary insanity.  Don't fark with my kids.

An insanity plea wouldn't work.

I really wouldn't care.  Fathers will do hard time and willingly so if you fark with their kids.  Someone without the legal authority locks my kids up?  He's going to get the asskicking of his life and if he looks even slightly like he's going to resist, I'll just shoot him dead.

Do not fark with a father's kids.


Don't raise shiaty kids and I won't fark with them. You sound like an overprotective helicopter parent. My dad would have thanked the dude and whoooped our ass on top of a minimum 1 year grounding.
2013-06-16 05:56:08 PM  
1 votes:

quickdraw: citizens arrest?


That was my first thought. That the kids are probably lying about him threatening them with the hammer was the second. I really don't see a problem here, especially with that level of damage. The police were called as soon as possible, and the kids likely weren't in there more than 20 minutes, tops. They were committing felony breaking and entering, and he just herded them into a closet. Good thing they weren't a few years older, as if they're already committing crime like this (especially since it's obviously retaliation from an encounter earlier in the day), the guy is lucky his skull didn't meet the hammers of the other three.

I also can't believe the parents are demanding this guy be charged. It's a sign of the special snowflake times I guess. Where the fark were you, parents?
2013-06-16 05:51:28 PM  
1 votes:
I thought as a citizen if you see a crime take place and you detain the suspect until police arrive that you can do that
2013-06-16 05:48:41 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


Perhaps if you weren't such a farking failure as a parent, your kids wouldn't be committing felonies before thy have pubes? If my kids ever pulled some shiat like this, I would be thanking the FSM that the homeowner had shown that much restraint. I don't worry about that though because I've raised my kids to take responsibility for their actions and if they victimize innocent people, they're responsible for the consequences of those criminal behaviors. It doesn't make me a cool, ITG with precious criminal scumbag crotch droplings like yourself, but it makes me a great farking parent that is raising 2 kids that will be good adults who understand that there are consequences, dangerous consequences, for acting like destructive little farkwits.
2013-06-16 05:41:32 PM  
1 votes:

T Baggins: Snapper Carr: N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.35 : NY Code - Section 140.35: Arrest without a warrant; by person acting other than as a police officer or a peace officer....
2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the
reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight
or other factors rendering such procedure impractical.
....
IANAL but it seems like he's covered.

IANALE, but I don't think this applies unless he informed the kids that he was placing them under arrest. This sort of citizen's arrest is how store security can legally detain shoplifters in some circumstances and locales, but there are still rules like this governing the arrests.


IAAL and telling them he is holding them until the police arrive is sufficient notice that he is arresting them, on top of the fact that they most likely offered flight or resistance.

The citizen's arrest is markedly different from the shopkeeper's privilege in that it they are able to only detain people long enough to sort out whether or not you stole something,  and may do so on "reasonable suspicion" that you have committed theft.  If you witness someone commit a felony, you can arrest them and take them directly to jail.
2013-06-16 05:38:26 PM  
1 votes:

99.998er: EdNortonsTwin: Spare the lash...

Ask Michael Faye, the kid caught in Singapore vandalizing property, what a caning is like.


More importantly, ask him if he ever vandalized anything ever again.
2013-06-16 05:25:40 PM  
1 votes:
If I had done this, my father would have beaten me senseless, paid the man for the damage I caused, forced me (over the threat of another beating) to repair the damage I did and help the man with any other repair work on the home he needed.  Then it would be expected that any money I made from mowing lawns and doing odd jobs around the neighborhood would be used to pay every cent back to dad.   I'd also be grounded until dad felt my punishment was over (probably 6 months to year).   These kids probably got an X-Box game and were told to go play it and leave mommy and daddy alone.
2013-06-16 05:21:38 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Speaking as a father, if my kids did something this farking retarded, I'd still kick the living shiat out of any guy who locks em in a closet.

And then I'd beat them within an inch of their lives.

It's all about priorities.  You're not a cop, you're not a judge, you don't get to lock my kids up.


Not sure if trolling but, he didn't lock them in the closet for three weeks, probably more like ten minutes. If you don't want you kids locked up, then teach them not to break into other people' houses and vandalize their stuff.
2013-06-16 05:18:33 PM  
1 votes:
If this where in my house... I would go grab my rifle, and use the rear end to literally beat them into the closet while loudly telling them to "make me use the other end, I farking dare you".
2013-06-16 05:11:53 PM  
1 votes:

Bschott007: Maul555: pyrotek85: The_Sponge: Ugh....I can't believe you guys are blaming the property owner.

Hopefully you'll think differently if some little shiats ever vandalize your property.

Seriously. I mean, if he beat them with the hammer then I'd agree he went too far, but holding them at 'hammer-point' until the cops show up seems perfectly reasonable. It's not like they just threw a few eggs at the house either, they broke into someone's home and cause a huge amount of damage. As some others have said, I think he showed a lot of restraint. I'd be positively livid if it were me.

if it where me those kids would have been returned to their parents with quite a few new bruises.


These kids are lucky they didn't run into some psychopath.

If the kids didn't return at all, the guy kept silent, no one saw them entering the home, no one knew where the kids were at or what they were doing they would just be some missing children most everyone would forget about in 6 months to a year.  Kids got lucky.


Yup, some people lose their temper over far less, like a damn parking spot dispute. To say he showed restraint is an understatement really. The only thing more amazing in this story is that the parents are acting outraged over their kids being held until the police showed up.
2013-06-16 04:58:42 PM  
1 votes:

jehovahs witness protection: Should have shot the little bastards.


This. They were all armed with deadly weapons and will only turn in to bigger thugs given their families are such enablers of criminals. Scum, all of them!
2013-06-16 04:54:02 PM  
1 votes:

pyrotek85: The_Sponge: Ugh....I can't believe you guys are blaming the property owner.

Hopefully you'll think differently if some little shiats ever vandalize your property.

Seriously. I mean, if he beat them with the hammer then I'd agree he went too far, but holding them at 'hammer-point' until the cops show up seems perfectly reasonable. It's not like they just threw a few eggs at the house either, they broke into someone's home and cause a huge amount of damage. As some others have said, I think he showed a lot of restraint. I'd be positively livid if it were me.


if it where me those kids would have been returned to their parents with quite a few new bruises.
2013-06-16 04:52:53 PM  
1 votes:

RickN99: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least.

He detained multiple armed criminals, caught in the commission of numerous crimes on his property, until the police arrived.  Cite one state's law where this is considered "kidnapping".


it's not...he is being charged with ENDANGERING A CHILD.  Which I can't see how he endangered these kids by stuffing them in a closet.
2013-06-16 04:50:44 PM  
1 votes:
Hold on.

It is ok for mall or store security to apprehend a shoplifter and then detain them in an office or back room until police arrive.

It is not ok for a home owner to apprehend a vandal and then detain them in a closet until the police arrive.


Got it.
2013-06-16 04:45:59 PM  
1 votes:
Satanic_Hamster - In theory, yes.  In practice?  Far as you know they could be violent or meth heads trying to steal copper.  I'd go in holding a gun, not a camera, if I went in at all.

I won't disagree with that, but with the camera, you may not have to 'go in' at all. Just film them from the window and retreat once you get the footage. Or, go in with both. That way your arse is covered when you have to shoot someone in self defense. I have a 720p spy cam that is the size of my thumb and can clip right onto my sleeve or waistband... that way I can use the gun properly if I have to. It's all about proof.

/and if you decide to go in shooting, please remember to turn the camera off....heh
2013-06-16 04:45:44 PM  
1 votes:

thamike: The_Sponge: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Kidnapping?  He called the cops.

The kidnapping had already happened when he called the cops.


You cant kidnapp someone who broke into your home by keeping them there.  its impossible I say.
2013-06-16 04:37:38 PM  
1 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: The_Sponge: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Kidnapping?  He called the cops.


He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.


Which is not what he was charged with by the police. The charge was 'endangering a child'. Not kidnapping, not false imprisonment. In order to take him to trial, the prosecutor has to decide whether or not the charge meets the criteria for the state's burden of proof.

IANAL, but a person who is and who is decent at their job will question the police carefully. If the statement from the article that the police were pressured by the parents of the kids caught in a criminal act to arrest the victim of that criminal act turns out to be true, it's likely that this will go nowhere with any sane judge and/or prosecutor. The only issue this guy is going to have is if it turns out to be true that he put his hands on one of the kids by grabbing his neck--which, considering the kids all had hammers in their hands (4 kids with weapons against one man--you do the math), probably isn't going to be an issue for him if his lawyer is remotely competent. Otherwise, it's perfectly legal--as a citizen--to detain anyone committing a crime until police arrive. If you actually read the article (I know, this is Fark--why would you do that?), he had his wife call 911 as he went over to check, so the police were already on their way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States
2013-06-16 04:35:49 PM  
1 votes:
So they're going to lock him up in a confined space to teach him that locking others up in a confined space is wrong? HYPOCRISY!
2013-06-16 04:35:26 PM  
1 votes:

Bslim: Next time, just lock up and set the place on fire. Roast the little scumbags and blame them for the blaze too.

/Not kidding
//not even a little bit
///slashies


25.media.tumblr.com
2013-06-16 04:35:07 PM  
1 votes:
Those parents should be thankful that they got their kids back unharmed despite being caught by the victim of their criminal behavior.

The victim showed considerable restraint, regardless of what actually is within his rights.  Whether or not you're an ITG, you have to admit that the victim could have reacted in a much worse way.

The cops saw nothing wrong with the victim's behavior when they showed up and arrested the kids (or did whatever they did to have felony charges brought up against the kids)

The parents going after the victim will raise their kids as sociopaths.  The kids will think that they have safety and rights when it comes to committing felonies.

Oh please oh please let's have a "where are they now" 10 or 15 years from now for the kids and their parents.
2013-06-16 04:32:44 PM  
1 votes:

payattention: BTW folks.... the next time you find yourself in such a situation, please grab your camera or camcorder. The little snots can run away and deny all they want, but they cannot explain the nice 35mm or 1080i footage you will get of them standing in the house, with paint on their clothes and hammers in their hands. And, if they are crazy enough to decide they might need to take care of that camera, THEN you have the right to wield a hammer in return and herd them into a closet in self defense. All clean and legal. And with video to prove they did it.

/cameras... proving people are evil shiats since 1839


In theory, yes.  In practice?  Far as you know they could be violent or meth heads trying to steal copper.  I'd go in holding a gun, not a camera, if I went in at all.
2013-06-16 04:31:35 PM  
1 votes:
Hell, the guy should get an award for restraint.
2013-06-16 04:31:05 PM  
1 votes:
He did it for their safety. He didn't want them tripping and getting hurt on the crap they vandalized. Give the guy a commendation and throw a few books at the kids.
2013-06-16 04:28:35 PM  
1 votes:
Next time, just lock up and set the place on fire. Roast the little scumbags and blame them for the blaze too.

/Not kidding
//not even a little bit
///slashies
2013-06-16 04:22:14 PM  
1 votes:

WorldCitizen: If I were the parents of those kids I would be WAY too embarrassed at my bad parenting to bring additional attention to it by trying to have arrested the person who stopped my kids from continuing their destruction. I guess some people have no shame.


Of course not, they learn from their parents being just as bratty
2013-06-16 04:20:50 PM  
1 votes:

The_Sponge: Ugh....I can't believe you guys are blaming the property owner.

Hopefully you'll think differently if some little shiats ever vandalize your property.


Seriously. I mean, if he beat them with the hammer then I'd agree he went too far, but holding them at 'hammer-point' until the cops show up seems perfectly reasonable. It's not like they just threw a few eggs at the house either, they broke into someone's home and cause a huge amount of damage. As some others have said, I think he showed a lot of restraint. I'd be positively livid if it were me.
2013-06-16 04:20:20 PM  
1 votes:
These are angry little kids with terrible parents. Future jail fodder.
PKY
2013-06-16 04:05:25 PM  
1 votes:
Those kids are damaged goods. One way tickets to Somalia please.
2013-06-16 03:18:02 PM  
1 votes:

born_yesterday: BarkingUnicorn: The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.

Or, forced them at gunpoint  to fight each other with the hammers, promising to let the survivor win.

Then shot the survivor and claimed the kid was a maniac and he was just sorry he was late saving the other kids.


Ohhh, I like this one.
2013-06-16 02:58:52 PM  
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.


Or, forced them at gunpoint  to fight each other with the hammers, promising to let the survivor win.

Then shot the survivor and claimed the kid was a maniac and he was just sorry he was late saving the other kids.
2013-06-16 02:01:54 PM  
1 votes:

thamike: basemetal: thamike: namatad: instead, he was illegally arrest for a crime which he didnt commit.

He was charged with endangering a child, not with false imprisonment.  The kids were charged with multiple felonies.

Anybody else here care to admit that they really don't give a sh*t about the people involved in this story?

Meh, he didn't endanger those kids, they endangered themselves.

Obviously, but I'm not the one accusing the guy, the police are.


And they'll drop the charges, watch and see.
2013-06-16 01:56:08 PM  
1 votes:

thamike: I have no idea what you're talking about.


You said something that was wrong. It was pointed out by numerous people. "Bruising" to your ego most likely occurred. Ergo under your loose definition of things, you were the victim of an assault.
2013-06-16 12:51:15 PM  
1 votes:

quickdraw: citizens arrest?


i232.photobucket.com
2013-06-16 12:13:39 PM  
1 votes:

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.
2013-06-16 11:19:31 AM  
1 votes:
Around here, there's not a jury that would convict him.

/and the parents would be thankful the kids were not shot.
 
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