If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Opposing Views)   Is this man facing two years in jail for a.) theft, b.) assault or c.) locking up kids who were vandalizing his home in a closet until police could arrive?   (opposingviews.com) divider line 264
    More: Stupid, vandals, jail  
•       •       •

7424 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jun 2013 at 3:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



264 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-06-16 02:30:48 PM

BarkingUnicorn: The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.


Haha!
 
2013-06-16 02:31:38 PM

basemetal: Around here, there's not a jury that would convict him.

/and the parents would be thankful the kids were not shot.


Thread over.
/sure got real tolly quick tho
 
2013-06-16 02:32:18 PM

basemetal: Around here, there's not a jury that would convict him.

/and the parents would be thankful the kids were not shot.


Thread over.
/sure got trolly tho
 
2013-06-16 02:35:48 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.


If you really think the cops are going to take fingerprints, pictures, etc. then you are deluded.  All they do is show up and fill out a report.  I've had stuff stolen before, I even pointed out to the officer where there would almost have to be finger prints and he didn't care a rip.  He just filled out the form and handed me a copy for the insurance company.  The only way they call in the crime lab is if it's a big scene with a murder, etc.

These kids are a product of the people posting upthread.  In a world where people say the adult here was wrong, kids have learned to exploit this to their benefit.  They grow up without the fear of being hammered when they do things.  Even back in my day, you pulled this stuff and not only would the homeowner grab you and likely hit you a few times, he'd have drug you back to your parents home where they would have apologized to him, thanked him for bringing their kid home, arranged to make payments on the damage, and then they'd have put the biggest punishment and likely spanking down on you they could.  Did we get out of line?  Heck no, the punishment scared us.  We grew up to not do this crap.  Kids today, they can get away with anything and they know it.  All because of the idiots in this thread who think they have rights and think the guy was wrong.  Spare the rod and spoil the child.  True then, true now.
 
2013-06-16 02:39:09 PM

remus: These kids are a product of the people posting upthread.


This thread is the product of over-YouTubed people inferring personal bias from emotionless legal discussion.
 
2013-06-16 02:53:48 PM

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Unless you are part of the plutocracy.
 
2013-06-16 02:57:34 PM
If the kids were part of a spree of break-ins, yup, they would have gotten the CSI kits out.

CSB: my aunt had her house broken in, cops were looking for the kids, found a nice fingerprint on the window sill, called up the database, bingo. Found the perps, her stuff, and other people stuff.
 
2013-06-16 02:58:52 PM

BarkingUnicorn: The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.


Or, forced them at gunpoint  to fight each other with the hammers, promising to let the survivor win.

Then shot the survivor and claimed the kid was a maniac and he was just sorry he was late saving the other kids.
 
2013-06-16 03:15:49 PM
He'll get off.
 
2013-06-16 03:18:02 PM

born_yesterday: BarkingUnicorn: The kids had hammers, too.  He could have made it look like they killed each other.

Or, forced them at gunpoint  to fight each other with the hammers, promising to let the survivor win.

Then shot the survivor and claimed the kid was a maniac and he was just sorry he was late saving the other kids.


Ohhh, I like this one.
 
2013-06-16 03:51:24 PM

thamike: namatad: If he had shot and killed them in self-defense, he would probably be ok now.

I doubt it.


Too bad for him he doesn't live in Texas or Florida.
 
PKY
2013-06-16 04:05:25 PM
Those kids are damaged goods. One way tickets to Somalia please.
 
2013-06-16 04:05:26 PM
Man, I love all the GED lawyers springing up around Fark lately.
 
2013-06-16 04:12:43 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.


s2.postimg.org
 
2013-06-16 04:15:25 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


And I suppose you would of just let them leave and went back to bed
 
2013-06-16 04:17:08 PM
If one of those turds was killed while vandalizing the home you know damn well the parents would've sued the guy, and won.
 
2013-06-16 04:20:20 PM
These are angry little kids with terrible parents. Future jail fodder.
 
2013-06-16 04:20:50 PM

The_Sponge: Ugh....I can't believe you guys are blaming the property owner.

Hopefully you'll think differently if some little shiats ever vandalize your property.


Seriously. I mean, if he beat them with the hammer then I'd agree he went too far, but holding them at 'hammer-point' until the cops show up seems perfectly reasonable. It's not like they just threw a few eggs at the house either, they broke into someone's home and cause a huge amount of damage. As some others have said, I think he showed a lot of restraint. I'd be positively livid if it were me.
 
2013-06-16 04:22:02 PM

Gyrfalcon: Man, I love all the GED lawyers springing up around Fark lately.


What do you mean "lately"?
 
2013-06-16 04:22:14 PM

WorldCitizen: If I were the parents of those kids I would be WAY too embarrassed at my bad parenting to bring additional attention to it by trying to have arrested the person who stopped my kids from continuing their destruction. I guess some people have no shame.


Of course not, they learn from their parents being just as bratty
 
2013-06-16 04:23:34 PM

Rik01: Aarontology

Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

You are permitted to act within a reasonable way to defend yourself, your family and property. IMO, he showed great restraint. Schools have treated kids like them much more harshly for wearing banned clothing or even drawing a picture of a gun.

Since they had hammers, technically they had weapons. Would it have made a difference if they had guns? How about the fact they trespassed, broke and entered and committed malicious destruction of property? Also the simple fact that these innocent angels came up with the plan to break into a neighborhood home to wreck as much mayhem on it as possible and carried it out?

What was he supposed to do, stand there and let them run away? Maybe he didn't know where they lived. Then, the cops and he would have to spend days tracking them down.

He called the cops. He put them in a closet. He did not tie them up nor physically harm them. Personally, seeing that much damage done to a parents home by the little f**ks might have driven me to physical violence.

Stupidity like this caused great confusion and a real mess in the 70's when criminals started suing their victims who defended themselves or who physically chased them down and caught them. (Store personnel especially.) Eventually, that would lead to the creation of 'zero tolerance' laws that has packed our jails and prisons.

Had I done something like that as a kid, my folks would have torn my arse up! The heck with looking for a stupid excuse to file charges against the person who caught me.

That's like this stupid shiat with squatters. You go away on vacation and come home to find people living in your house, messing with your things. You can't go in there with a baseball bat and chase them out because they have 'rights'.

Funny, with all of these 'rights' available, the US has one of the highest populations in prisons in the world. We are also the most litigious nation on the planet.

The man ...


This.
 
2013-06-16 04:24:08 PM

Azlefty: Walker: Yeah, if you walked in your bathroom and saw this you might disagree:

While it would really piss me off, but I really doubt I would threaten 8-10 year old kids with a hammer over it; the parents maybe, the kids no.


I fully agree with you.  There's no way in hell I'd ever threaten children over that.  I'd just shoot them.  They were armed with hammers and I would be fearful of my life.

If the guy and his lawyer are smart, they'll give as many interviews as possible.  If he can avoid saying something stupid there will be a huge amount of pressure on the authorities to drop the charges.
 
2013-06-16 04:25:16 PM
8-10... I am looking at my seven-year-old as he "feeds" his stuffed bunny pudding. What horrible homes are those kids in? When children act so maliciously, CPS should be summoned to do a thorough investigation. Something is very wrong.
 
2013-06-16 04:25:24 PM

Bathia_Mapes: And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Honestly, I think you're wrong here. When it comes to stopping damage to my home, i should have the right to detain the subject or subjects until the law comes. They are guilty of tresspassing, vandalism, and so on.

Also, it's not "taking the law into your own hands" when acting to protect your life or property and holding the subjects for police. That is, or should be, considered basic civic duty.
 
2013-06-16 04:27:52 PM
Spare the lash...
 
2013-06-16 04:28:35 PM
Next time, just lock up and set the place on fire. Roast the little scumbags and blame them for the blaze too.

/Not kidding
//not even a little bit
///slashies
 
2013-06-16 04:30:31 PM
BTW folks.... the next time you find yourself in such a situation, please grab your camera or camcorder. The little snots can run away and deny all they want, but they cannot explain the nice 35mm or 1080i footage you will get of them standing in the house, with paint on their clothes and hammers in their hands. And, if they are crazy enough to decide they might need to take care of that camera, THEN you have the right to wield a hammer in return and herd them into a closet in self defense. All clean and legal. And with video to prove they did it.

/cameras... proving people are evil shiats since 1839
 
2013-06-16 04:31:05 PM
He did it for their safety. He didn't want them tripping and getting hurt on the crap they vandalized. Give the guy a commendation and throw a few books at the kids.
 
2013-06-16 04:31:05 PM

remus: Bathia_Mapes: Mrbogey: Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.

I hope that's not true because if it is then society is doomed. How can you not not allow people to detain a criminal until police arrive? That's an awfully British way to defend criminality.

You know if the kids fled they'd deny involvement and then there's essentially a property crime with no firm evidence other than one eyewitness making a claim.

Looking at the photos of how they left the place I'd say there's likely a lot of physical evidence. You know, stuff like fingerprints on the cabinets, paint cans & hammers, possible shoe prints on the spilled paint used while vandalizing the place, etc. At the very least that would prove that the kids were in the house. And I doubt they could convince the police that they were allowed to be there.

If you really think the cops are going to take fingerprints, pictures, etc. then you are deluded.  All they do is show up and fill out a report.  I've had stuff stolen before, I even pointed out to the officer where there would almost have to be finger prints and he didn't care a rip.  He just filled out the form and handed me a copy for the insurance company.  The only way they call in the crime lab is if it's a big scene with a murder, etc.

These kids are a product of the people posting upthread.  In a world where people say the adult here was wrong, kids have learned to exploit this to their benefit.  They grow up without the fear of being hammered when they do things.  Even back in my day, you pulled this stuff and not only would the homeowner grab you and likely hit you a few times, he'd have drug you back to your parents home where they would have apologized to him, thanked him for bringing their kid home, arrang ...


These kids are exceptional, not the norm. You had little psychos back in your day too. There are always some like that. But our population is larger than it used to be and our media now reports on things like this, so you get the feeling that the per capita incidence is up.
 
2013-06-16 04:31:08 PM

Mrbogey: The man who detained the kids did nothing wrong. Nothing. The father should be charged for child neglect.


Absolutely agree, and I'm completely shocked by the parents response. When I was a kid, playing kickball, I broke a neighbor's window. Of course, being kids, we all screw. I told my dad what happened, he walked me over to the house, he had me apologize, and I paid for the window.

If I had broken into someone's house, destroyed the place, splattered paint everywhere, and got caught and held until police showed up, you can bet your ASS my father wouldn't be pressing charges against the person who held me. If my daughter did something like that, after she was returned to me, I would bought cleaning supplies, marched my kid over to that person, made her apologize, and sat there while she did what she could to clean. That is, after getting the other parents on the phone and talking to them about pooling together the money to pay for repairs.

It absolutely horrifies me to read the comments on here about how this guy was in the wrong somehow. The parents of these kids? THEY are the ones who should be getting locked up and charges against them pressed. Where the hell were they? Why were their kids out at 9pm destroying someone's house?

Personally I'm all for having parents face charges when their kids do evil shiat. Yeah, I realize that means if my daughter did something horrible I'd face charges! All the more reason to raise her to be a good human being.
 
2013-06-16 04:31:25 PM

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


I have no problems with the way he detained those hoodlums.  Basically he performed a citizen's arrest, right?

/not a lawyer
 
2013-06-16 04:31:35 PM
Hell, the guy should get an award for restraint.
 
2013-06-16 04:32:44 PM

payattention: BTW folks.... the next time you find yourself in such a situation, please grab your camera or camcorder. The little snots can run away and deny all they want, but they cannot explain the nice 35mm or 1080i footage you will get of them standing in the house, with paint on their clothes and hammers in their hands. And, if they are crazy enough to decide they might need to take care of that camera, THEN you have the right to wield a hammer in return and herd them into a closet in self defense. All clean and legal. And with video to prove they did it.

/cameras... proving people are evil shiats since 1839


In theory, yes.  In practice?  Far as you know they could be violent or meth heads trying to steal copper.  I'd go in holding a gun, not a camera, if I went in at all.
 
2013-06-16 04:34:20 PM
They took out the toilet so as far as I'm concerned this guy was a saint.
 
2013-06-16 04:35:07 PM
Those parents should be thankful that they got their kids back unharmed despite being caught by the victim of their criminal behavior.

The victim showed considerable restraint, regardless of what actually is within his rights.  Whether or not you're an ITG, you have to admit that the victim could have reacted in a much worse way.

The cops saw nothing wrong with the victim's behavior when they showed up and arrested the kids (or did whatever they did to have felony charges brought up against the kids)

The parents going after the victim will raise their kids as sociopaths.  The kids will think that they have safety and rights when it comes to committing felonies.

Oh please oh please let's have a "where are they now" 10 or 15 years from now for the kids and their parents.
 
2013-06-16 04:35:26 PM

Bslim: Next time, just lock up and set the place on fire. Roast the little scumbags and blame them for the blaze too.

/Not kidding
//not even a little bit
///slashies


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-16 04:35:49 PM
So they're going to lock him up in a confined space to teach him that locking others up in a confined space is wrong? HYPOCRISY!
 
2013-06-16 04:37:12 PM
No jury will convict him. On the plus side these monsters might be old enough their parents insurance will not pay.
 
2013-06-16 04:37:33 PM
They would never find them.
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-16 04:37:37 PM
I would like to see a follow up to this story... so I'll know if I should avoid that city.
 
2013-06-16 04:37:38 PM

Bathia_Mapes: The_Sponge: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Kidnapping?  He called the cops.


He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least. You cannot legally do what this man did and it doesn't matter whether it involved children or adults.


Which is not what he was charged with by the police. The charge was 'endangering a child'. Not kidnapping, not false imprisonment. In order to take him to trial, the prosecutor has to decide whether or not the charge meets the criteria for the state's burden of proof.

IANAL, but a person who is and who is decent at their job will question the police carefully. If the statement from the article that the police were pressured by the parents of the kids caught in a criminal act to arrest the victim of that criminal act turns out to be true, it's likely that this will go nowhere with any sane judge and/or prosecutor. The only issue this guy is going to have is if it turns out to be true that he put his hands on one of the kids by grabbing his neck--which, considering the kids all had hammers in their hands (4 kids with weapons against one man--you do the math), probably isn't going to be an issue for him if his lawyer is remotely competent. Otherwise, it's perfectly legal--as a citizen--to detain anyone committing a crime until police arrive. If you actually read the article (I know, this is Fark--why would you do that?), he had his wife call 911 as he went over to check, so the police were already on their way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest_in_the_United_States
 
2013-06-16 04:40:27 PM

Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.


Children should not be untouchable.   He should have had full authority to kick their asses.   I can't believe this shiat!
 
2013-06-16 04:40:40 PM

Intrepid00: No jury will convict him. On the plus side these monsters might be old enough their parents insurance will not pay.


Hope so. If that 50k damage estimate was accurate that's a hell of a bill, even split four ways.
 
2013-06-16 04:42:02 PM

Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Take the law into your own hands?   Threatening the vandals of my home with bodily harm if they should leave before the cops arrive seems to me to be "basic what to do - 101"... Not "taking the law into my own hands"
 
2013-06-16 04:45:44 PM

thamike: The_Sponge: Bathia_Mapes: Aarontology: Someone else breaking the law doesn't mean you can break other laws.

THIS

And he's damned lucky they didn't slap four charges of kidnapping on him as well. I fully understand his anger and why he did what he did, but you cannot take the law into your own hands without consequences.


Kidnapping?  He called the cops.

The kidnapping had already happened when he called the cops.


You cant kidnapp someone who broke into your home by keeping them there.  its impossible I say.
 
2013-06-16 04:45:59 PM
Satanic_Hamster - In theory, yes.  In practice?  Far as you know they could be violent or meth heads trying to steal copper.  I'd go in holding a gun, not a camera, if I went in at all.

I won't disagree with that, but with the camera, you may not have to 'go in' at all. Just film them from the window and retreat once you get the footage. Or, go in with both. That way your arse is covered when you have to shoot someone in self defense. I have a 720p spy cam that is the size of my thumb and can clip right onto my sleeve or waistband... that way I can use the gun properly if I have to. It's all about proof.

/and if you decide to go in shooting, please remember to turn the camera off....heh
 
2013-06-16 04:46:36 PM
N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.30 : NY Code - Section 140.30: Arrest without a warrant; by any person; when and where authorized

1. Subject to the provisions of subdivision two, any person may
arrest another person (a) for a felony when the latter has in fact
committed such felony, and (b) for any offense when the latter has in
fact committed such offense in his presence.
2. Such an arrest, if for a felony, may be made anywhere in the
state. If the arrest is for an offense other than a felony, it may be
made only in the county in which such offense was committed.]

N.Y. CPL. LAW § 140.35 : NY Code - Section 140.35: Arrest without a warrant; by person acting other than as a police officer or a peace officer; when and how made

1. A person may arrest another person for an offense pursuant to
section 140.30 at any hour of any day or night.
2. Such person must inform the person whom he is arresting of the
reason for such arrest unless he encounters physical resistance, flight
or other factors rendering such procedure impractical.
3. In order to effect such an arrest, such person may use such
physical force as is justifiable pursuant to subdivision four of section
35.30 of the penal law.


IANAL but it seems like he's covered.
 
2013-06-16 04:48:18 PM

payattention: Satanic_Hamster - In theory, yes.  In practice?  Far as you know they could be violent or meth heads trying to steal copper.  I'd go in holding a gun, not a camera, if I went in at all.

I won't disagree with that, but with the camera, you may not have to 'go in' at all. Just film them from the window and retreat once you get the footage. Or, go in with both. That way your arse is covered when you have to shoot someone in self defense. I have a 720p spy cam that is the size of my thumb and can clip right onto my sleeve or waistband... that way I can use the gun properly if I have to. It's all about proof.

/and if you decide to go in shooting, please remember to turn the camera off....heh


You don't need a camera if there aren't any witnesses to testify against you.  At least that is what some guy told me...

media.trb.com
 
2013-06-16 04:50:44 PM
Hold on.

It is ok for mall or store security to apprehend a shoplifter and then detain them in an office or back room until police arrive.

It is not ok for a home owner to apprehend a vandal and then detain them in a closet until the police arrive.


Got it.
 
2013-06-16 04:51:31 PM

Bathia_Mapes: He forced the children into a closet and kept them there until the police showed up. In many states that's considered kidnapping, or false imprisonment at the very least.


He detained multiple armed criminals, caught in the commission of numerous crimes on his property, until the police arrived.  Cite one state's law where this is considered "kidnapping".
 
Displayed 50 of 264 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report