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(Toronto Star)   Couple find 400-year-old native skeleton in their yard while installing a new fence, and sell it for $5,000. Wait, It cost them $5,000? What?   (thestar.com) divider line 61
    More: Asinine, Nicole Sauve, Sarnia, First Nations, Ontario Provincial Police  
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15289 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jun 2013 at 4:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-15 11:52:40 PM  
TFA:The OPP, who taped off the couple's backyard, called in forensic anthropologist Michael Spence to examine the site.

Sounds like someone wasn't down with OPP.
 
2013-06-15 11:56:22 PM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

It never works out for the best.
 
2013-06-16 12:12:13 AM  
I once worked on a prehistoric Native American cemetery near Lake Erie in Ohio.  A bunch of summer homes were being built when skeletons were discovered.  Ohio has weird laws regarding bioarchaeological remains, and we were only able to recover a small portion of the cemetery, as it extended into property already built and lived on.   It is quite likely that we missed some burials, which means those summer homes have skeletons in their backyards.
 
2013-06-16 12:31:56 AM  
Sauve said people have been telling her that if they end up in a similar situation, they won't alert authorities and risk having to fork over the cash to pay the bill.

Yeah, seems like a good way to guarantee the next skeleton somebody finds ends up discreetly dumped in a river somewhere.


raerae1980: I once worked on a prehistoric Native American cemetery near Lake Erie in Ohio.  A bunch of summer homes were being built when skeletons were discovered.  Ohio has weird laws regarding bioarchaeological remains, and we were only able to recover a small portion of the cemetery, as it extended into property already built and lived on.   It is quite likely that we missed some burials, which means those summer homes have skeletons in their backyards.


Stay out of the swimming pool if it rains hard.

images3.cliqueclack.com
 
2013-06-16 01:08:27 AM  
Tie the bones together with some copper wire, spray the skeleton and wire with potassium permanganate, wait for it to oxidize into a nice aged looking patina, wash off the excess and viola, you have a historic anatomical model you can sell to a private collector all nice and legal.


/this works for ....fresher... skeletons that may be left behind after the caustic lye has done its work...
 
2013-06-16 01:35:06 AM  
If the state wants old bones analyzed, the state can pay for it.
 
2013-06-16 02:43:04 AM  
The lesson I think anyone who sees this story will learn is "If you find shiat like that in your yard, KEEP IT QUIET and FILL THE HOLE WITH QUICKLIME AND CEMENT."
 
2013-06-16 04:18:50 AM  

unlikely: The lesson I think anyone who sees this story will learn is "If you find shiat like that in your yard, KEEP IT QUIET and FILL THE HOLE WITH QUICKLIME AND CEMENT."


That happens with astonishing regularity up here in AK.  No one wants the rigamarole of dealing with whatever tribal corporation claims to own, ahem, be related to the deceased.
 
2013-06-16 04:19:37 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: If the state wants old bones analyzed, the state can pay for it.


Much easier route - call the indigenous tribe from the area and have their DNR take care of it.
 
2013-06-16 04:29:01 AM  
If you dig all day in your Blue Sky plot, there'll be bones on the dirt heap tonight.
 
2013-06-16 04:37:21 AM  
Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.
 
2013-06-16 04:40:54 AM  

Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.


Was that well played pun intended, cuz it's a beaut.
 
2013-06-16 04:50:53 AM  

cygnusx13: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Was that well played pun intended, cuz it's a beaut.


Yep.
And thank you.
 
2013-06-16 04:54:10 AM  
Anyone in a similar future predicament who finds remains will just bury them somewhere else or garbage.

On the plus side, I'm happy that an archeologist finally got a gig.
 
2013-06-16 04:57:30 AM  
3.bp.blogspot.com

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-16 05:01:01 AM  
IMG src=a:\picture.bmp
 
2013-06-16 05:04:19 AM  
for possible interest
from another place

Kennewick Man
When the skeleton was discovered, the Benton County coroner asked contract anthropologist James Chatters to examine the remains to ascertain whether it was the proper subject for investigation by his office. The Caucasoid features of the skull at first lead Chatters to believe that it was the cranium of a Caucasian, and because of the presence of a stone projectile point embedded in the skeleton's pelvis (from a wound suffered long before the subject's death), Chatters assumed he was dealing with the remains of an early pioneer to the Columbia River Valley. The projectile point, however, turned out to be the kind used in the region thousands of years ago, indicating that the skeleton was not that of a missing person or even of a person from our recent past, but rather a valuable archeological find from America's distant past. Archeological finds always attract public attention, and few news stories grab front page space in daily newspapers more than this sort of thing. The Kennewick story was even bigger than most stories of its kind, since the remains exhibited features similar to modern Europeans. In fact a facial reconstruction of the skull reminded one observer of Patrick Stewart, the British actor who played the role of Captain Jean Luc Picard on the popular television series Star Trek, the Next Generation.

Indian political entrepreneurs were infuriated by such talk. As soon as the story hit the nation's papers, a coalition of Indians in eastern Washington State filed a claim for possession of the skeleton, asserting that it was the remains of one of their ancestors. Such a claim is obviously absurd when viewed from a common sense point of view, because the remains do not physically resemble any living Indian population and because they are thousands of years old. Human populations move around, entering and leaving regions over time, merging with one another, and in some cases simply dying out. Given these straightforward facts, how could a group of Indians claim the bones as one of their ancestors? The device they used was a 1990 federal law, the Native American Grave Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA) requiring that human remains and cultural artifacts be turned over to any Indian community that can establish "cultural affiliation." Since the intent of the law was to provide the same rights over the remains of one's relatives that other groups enjoy, NAGPRA was never meant to deal with material from remote antiquity. The letter and the intent of the law, however, did not matter to the coalition, nor did it matter to the United States Army Corps of Engineers, which demanded possession of the bones from the coroner's office. The Corps was exercising its right to possession because the bones were found on a stretch of river that at the time was under the Corps' jurisdiction. The Corps planned to transfer the bones to the coalition for immediate burial.
 
2013-06-16 05:13:55 AM  
Dusty old bones
full of green dust
 
2013-06-16 05:15:05 AM  
Like anything to do with real estate, they should have known, right?
 
2013-06-16 05:20:11 AM  

bindlestiff2600: The projectile point, however, turned out to be the kind used in the region thousands of years ago, indicating that the skeleton was not that of a missing person or even of a person from our recent past,


Hmmm.....Steal old arrowhead from museum, kill someone, not be suspected of murder
 
2013-06-16 05:24:51 AM  
Other people: find interesting stuff when they install a new fence

My neighbor: finds my cable line with his shovel when installing a new fence. Azzhole
 
2013-06-16 05:27:37 AM  
The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
 
2013-06-16 05:29:20 AM  

gfid: bindlestiff2600: The projectile point, however, turned out to be the kind used in the region thousands of years ago, indicating that the skeleton was not that of a missing person or even of a person from our recent past,

Hmmm.....Steal old arrowhead from museum, kill someone, not be suspected of murder


another thing i never thought of
 
2013-06-16 05:54:45 AM  
This is from my hometown! Woo!
 
2013-06-16 06:58:16 AM  

fusillade762: Sauve said people have been telling her that if they end up in a similar situation, they won't alert authorities and risk having to fork over the cash to pay the bill.

Yeah, seems like a good way to guarantee the next skeleton somebody finds ends up discreetly dumped in a river somewhere.


Yup, if they want to make sure no authority gets notified when a skeleton gets discovered, they went about it the right way.
 
2013-06-16 07:22:35 AM  
Too much bureaucracy!  Government rules against individual property rights.
 
2013-06-16 07:24:25 AM  

Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.




Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."
 
2013-06-16 07:33:10 AM  

hasty ambush: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."


Shoot, grill and eat up is more like it.
 
2013-06-16 07:41:22 AM  

gfid: hasty ambush: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."

Shoot, grill and eat up is more like it.


I know it is wrong, but I really would like to try roast bald eagle.
 
2013-06-16 07:44:47 AM  
It's like that Chevy Chase movie Funny Farm, where they find the body in the rose garden and have to pay for excavation and reburial.
 
2013-06-16 07:49:28 AM  
Skeletal remains were recently found in a local swamp. Cops figure that it was a middle-aged female who had been a member of a weight loss clinic.
 
2013-06-16 07:59:12 AM  
A lesson learned. Find bones while digging, STFU about it. Just like when killing hawks that are killing your chickens, "shoot, shovel, shut up."
 
2013-06-16 08:14:35 AM  

Mock26: gfid: hasty ambush: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."

Shoot, grill and eat up is more like it.

I know it is wrong, but I really would like to try roast bald eagle.


It's only wrong because its arbitrarily illegal. The species isn't classified as endangered or threatened or vulnerable. They are protected purely out of patriotism.
 
2013-06-16 08:23:32 AM  
I guess they didn't find that humerus
 
2013-06-16 08:36:28 AM  
Attention whoring can cost you money.... who knew?

/Shouldnt have told anyone
 
2013-06-16 08:36:43 AM  
Yeah, provide a total disincentive for anyone to report any archaeological remains/murder victims/abandoned treasure on their property.
 
2013-06-16 08:56:41 AM  

Alonjar: Attention whoring can cost you money.... who knew?

/Shouldnt have told anyone


How the fark is that AW? They found a human skeleton.
 
2013-06-16 08:57:05 AM  
Society working hard to prove that no good deed goes unpunished!!!
 
2013-06-16 09:10:01 AM  

ransack.: Mock26: gfid: hasty ambush: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."

Shoot, grill and eat up is more like it.

I know it is wrong, but I really would like to try roast bald eagle.

It's only wrong because its arbitrarily illegal. The species isn't classified as endangered or threatened or vulnerable. They are protected purely out of patriotism.


Well, that and it's a predator, it probably tastes nasty.
 
2013-06-16 09:12:38 AM  
She's steadfast in her belief that it doesn't matter what level of government steps in to pay, as long as she doesn't have to.

There's no such thing as "government money," so she's basically asking her fellow citizens to pay for something that, like it or not, is her responsibility.  Should the law be changed?  Maybe.  But it IS the law.
 
2013-06-16 09:15:52 AM  

ransack.: Mock26: gfid: hasty ambush: Mock26: Next time just keep your mouth shut about the hole thing.

Same thing with finding and "endangered" species on your property-If an endangered species is found on a person's private property, they have good reasons to-"shoot, shovel, and shut up."

Shoot, grill and eat up is more like it.

I know it is wrong, but I really would like to try roast bald eagle.

It's only wrong because its arbitrarily illegal. The species isn't classified as endangered or threatened or vulnerable. They are protected purely out of patriotism.


Not that I really doubted you, but I looked it up anyway and was surprised that they've only been off the endangered/threatened list for about 6 years. (delisted on 6/28/07).  Of course, as you stated they still are protected (along with Golden Eagles).

I guess it's good Ben Franklin didn't get his way because then what would we eat on Thanksgiving.  (Although I have heard the theory that he was just joking when he suggested the turkey as our National Bird.)
 
2013-06-16 09:23:15 AM  
"Under Ontario's Funeral, Burial and Cremation Services Act, property owners are responsible for the costs of an archeological assessment if human remains are found on their land."

F*ck Canada. I'd be charging other people for permission to come onto my land to do stuff...

Canada is so f*cked up sometimes...
a lot of the time...
too much of the time...

/Damn syrup suckers
 
2013-06-16 09:51:43 AM  
So... Does Canada not have a cultural resource management budget that would cover this exact situation?  Seems like it would be in the public's interest to identify discovered remains and relocate them if necessary, for all kinds of reasons (ruling out crime, locating missing persons, respect for the dead, historical/ cultural value, public health, avoiding the heebie jeebies, etc.).  So why is this not something that is covered by public funds?  Wouldn't a full investigation of the area (including excavation/survey) be performed if it turned out to be a recent death and burial, in order to collect evidence and fully document it as a crime scene?  Would that be billed to the property owners also?

Don't they have a law saying people are obligated to notify authorities if they find human remains??  None of this makes any practical sense.
 
2013-06-16 10:10:24 AM  
An associate of ours that's an archaeologist advises that as a homeowner if you find ancient human remains, pottery, arrowheads, buttons or anything that might be of interest... cover it, dig it up in the middle of the night, and discard it quietly.  Tell no one and pretend it never happened.

The laws and regulations surrounding artifacts, not to mention the lawsuits and intrusions by native american/aboriginal authorities, makes this an incredible legal mess.  You may have your property (legally!) taken away, and it may become unsellable.
 
2013-06-16 10:27:23 AM  

bindlestiff2600: for possible interest
from another place

Kennewick Man



Ah yes...Kennewick Man.   Very interesting stuff.   I'm not sure where you got your information but scientists were able to study him.  He was not reburied.  As far as I know, he's at the Burke Museum in Washington but I don't think he's on exhibit.   Since he was found on the Army Corps of Engineers property...they 'technically' own his bones.
 
2013-06-16 10:33:11 AM  

clintp: An associate of ours that's an archaeologist advises that as a homeowner if you find ancient human remains, pottery, arrowheads, buttons or anything that might be of interest... cover it, dig it up in the middle of the night, and discard it quietly.  Tell no one and pretend it never happened.

The laws and regulations surrounding artifacts, not to mention the lawsuits and intrusions by native american/aboriginal authorities, makes this an incredible legal mess.  You may have your property (legally!) taken away, and it may become unsellable.


I can't believe they are telling people that.   They could get into a lot of trouble, not to mention it is highly unethical in our field.   Do they work in Michigan?   The rules vary by state so maybe they are more complex?

*this* archaeologist now has a sad  :(
 
2013-06-16 10:35:30 AM  

gfid: bindlestiff2600: The projectile point, however, turned out to be the kind used in the region thousands of years ago, indicating that the skeleton was not that of a missing person or even of a person from our recent past,

Hmmm.....Steal old arrowhead from museum, kill someone, not be suspected of murder


Not that easy.  We can tell how old a skeleton is, usually.   In other words, if it's a fresh or historic skeleton.
 
2013-06-16 11:03:01 AM  
She should have gone the 'rezone to cemetery' route, unless the costs are so high for that to also be unreasonable. I think in NY it's maybe $200 max to get a permit with the designation; in fact there's a farm near us that has their own little plot right next to the house.
 
2013-06-16 11:20:52 AM  

raerae1980: bindlestiff2600: for possible interest
from another place


Kennewick Man


Ah yes...Kennewick Man.   Very interesting stuff.   I'm not sure where you got your information but scientists were able to study him.  He was not reburied.  As far as I know, he's at the Burke Museum in Washington but I don't think he's on exhibit.   Since he was found on the Army Corps of Engineers property...they 'technically' own his bones.



thank you    my info was out of date
 
2013-06-16 12:11:46 PM  

raerae1980: gfid: bindlestiff2600: The projectile point, however, turned out to be the kind used in the region thousands of years ago, indicating that the skeleton was not that of a missing person or even of a person from our recent past,

Hmmm.....Steal old arrowhead from museum, kill someone, not be suspected of murder

Not that easy.  We can tell how old a skeleton is, usually.   In other words, if it's a fresh or historic skeleton.


Yeah, I realize that.  The excerpt just sounded way too simplistic to me.  I would expect the estimate of age to be based o more than just "the kind used".  (e.g. carbon dating and probably a number of other methods I'm not even aware of).
 
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