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(C|Net)   NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants   (news.cnet.com) divider line 781
    More: Obvious, NSA, United States, phone calls, FISA Amendments Act, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, Legal liability, Internet Archive  
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11321 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jun 2013 at 9:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-16 12:28:10 AM  

GhostFish: sendtodave: GhostFish: Asphyxium: I love how retarded Republicans are up in arms about the surveillance and yet seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that their good old boy George W. Bush was the one who made all this possible.

I love how people can't seem to stop pointing fingers at everyone but themselves.

We're all responsible for this. We enabled it, and until we take responsibility we will have no power to stop it.

Well, our representatives enabled it.   We enabled them by giving them the power.  But that's how the system is supposed to work, right?

I mean, I guess you could argue that we should have picked other representatives, but they would have supported it, too.

No, really, I think the blame is on the government not the people.  The people got shafted.

We elected them, and we did it because we allowed them to play on our fears, anxieties, and hopes through slick advertising paid for by the highest bidder.

We allow ourselves to be played, and then throw up our hands and abandon responsibility for that.

Refusal to take responsibility just allows people to blame Bush, or Obama, or any side they want to put it on. And as long as it's being arbitrarily blamed on the left or right then we're just stuck back where we began with a subjective choice of the lesser evil.


What I'm saying is that the alternative wouldn't have been any different.  Damn near everyone was in favor of increased government power in 2001, and with good reason.  Democrat, Republican, it hardly mattered!
 
2013-06-16 12:28:28 AM  
Has anyone tried to enter those conversations into evidence in a criminal trial? No? Then sue the government for invasion of privacy and see what you get.
 
2013-06-16 12:28:32 AM  

BullBearMS: Granny_Panties: What did you guys think the Patriot Act was?

The Patriot Act does not in any way, shape or form allow warrantless spying on Americans telephone conversations.

Neither did the FISA rewrite in 2008.

The whole point of FISA was to set a a secret court where they could go and get warrants.

They couldn't even be bothered to do that.



It was the rewrite in 2007, the Protect America Act of 2007, that added "communications that begin or end in a foreign country may be wiretapped by the U.S. government without supervision by the FISA Court" meaning that since 2007 if half the phone conversation is in a foreign country it could be wiretapped w/o a warrant assuming they had probably cause that either of the two parties, regardless country of citizenship status, was a member of a foreign power or terrorist organization.

The only thing "safe" is communication within the Unites States.
 
2013-06-16 12:28:55 AM  

Vectron: WizardofToast: 2016 elections won't matter on who wins. If Obama vowed to stop the surveillance crap Bush did only to continue it, what's going to make any of the candidates on either side throw away the forbidden fruit?

Hillary is worse than Obama. Romney WOULD have been worse than Obama. We will get no chance at all to vote for anyone that reflects our concerns.


Don't you love how Bill called Obama a coward for not rolling into Syria?

Granny_Panties: his was a Republican act. Own up to it. Obama was just doing what his masters told him to do. The only thing Obama did here was spinelessly went along for the ride.


Horse shiat.

Obama's been working to expand warrantless spying all along.

The Obama administration is urging the Supreme Court to allow the government, without a court warrant, to affix GPS devices on suspects' vehicles to track their every move.

along with

The Obama administration is urging Congress not to adopt legislation that would impose constitutional safeguards on Americans' e-mail stored in the cloud.

along with

The Obama administration told a federal court Tuesday that the public has no "reasonable expectation of privacy" in cellphone location data, and hence the authorities may obtain documents detailing a person's movements from wireless carriers without a probable-cause warrant.

along with

The Obama administration is seeking to make it easier for the FBI to compel companies to turn over records of an individual's Internet activity without a court order

and

The Obama administration is drawing up plans to give all U.S. spy agencies full access to a massive database that contains financial data on American citizens and others who bank in the country, according to a Treasury Department document seen by Reuters.

also

Essentially, officials want Congress to require all services that enable communications - including encrypted e-mail transmitters like BlackBerry, social networking Web sites like Facebook and software that allows direct "peer to peer" messaging like Skype - to be technically capable of complying if served with a wiretap order. The mandate would include being able to intercept and unscramble encrypted messages.

The bill, which the Obama administration plans to submit to lawmakers next year, raises fresh questions about how to balance security needs with protecting privacy.


Don't even try to pretend he opposes this. Lying politician was lying.
 
2013-06-16 12:29:20 AM  

BullBearMS: In case you've forgotten just what Obama promised us on this...

Candidate Obama debates President Obama on Government Surveillance


You forgot to spell "Obama" with a zero.
 
2013-06-16 12:29:46 AM  

OgreMagi: I've pretty much lost all faith in our entire political process.


I'm about there, too.

Meh.

China does OK with government oppression, overall, I guess the US can handle a lighter version of it, too.

We are all authoritarians now.
 
2013-06-16 12:30:01 AM  
The MSM is complicit in all this. Everyone needs to kill their television.
Remember Howard Dean's Yell? How it was played over and over again all that weekend?
Why? He was anti-war.
 
2013-06-16 12:30:57 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Jewel v. National Security Agency


Gyrfalcon: Hepting v. AT&T is a United States class action lawsuit filed in January 2006 by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) against the telecommunications company AT&T, in which the EFF alleges that AT&T permitted and assisted the National Security Agency (NSA) in unlawfully monitoring the communications of the United States, including AT&T customers, businesses and third parties whose communications were routed through AT&T's network, as well as Voice over IP telephone calls routed via the Internet.


Took me 60 seconds on Google to find out that in Hepting, the plaintiffs alleged the US government had the capability to wiretap, record and store phone calls (presumably foreign and domestic), but had absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they were doing so without a court order.  The case was dismissed by the 9th Circuit.

Jewel v. National Security Agency is a similar class action suit filed in September 2008 and naming the NSA and the Bush administration.

And in this case (about five minutes of my life wasted), the entire lawsuit is built upon the affidavit of William Binney who (again, as in Hepting) alleges the NSA had the capability to wiretap domestic calls, but concedes he had no first hand knowledge of the program.  Further, he has no evidence that wiretapping without a court order was taking place ... he simply states that it's his opinion that it must be ("The NSA also has the capability to seize and store most electronic communications passing through its U.S. intercept centers. The wholesale collection of data allows the NSA to identify and analyze Entities or Communities of interest later in a static database. Based on my proximity to the PSP and my years of experience at the NSA, I can draw informed conclusions from the available facts. Those facts indicate that the NSA is doing both.").  That's it.  It's an entire lawsuit built around the notion that, since the NSA owns computers that he knows can intercept and record phone calls, they must be doing so in an unconstitutional and illegal manner.  No evidence.

Then, he tacks on at the very end that because the government started building the Utah facility in 2009 (hint, Bush wasn't president then) to store NSA data, they must be intending to use that facility to store illegally intercepted and recorded conversations.  Again, no evidence.  It's just "Hey, I've got a hunch."

tl;dr:
Try again.
 
2013-06-16 12:33:58 AM  

RanDomino: The amount of organization to reform the Democrats through primaries would require first building a new party of comparable power from scratch. Good luck with that.


Didn't stop the tea party from tossing incumbents on their ass.

The incumbents who pretended to oppose this under Bush but have been making excuses for the same behavior under Obaama need to go.

Hell, anyone who voted for the NDAA and indefinite detention of American citizens without a trial needs to go.
 
2013-06-16 12:34:36 AM  
insertsnarkyusername
Are there any ways to communicate that aren't monitored?

PGP e-mail encryption for dummies
One-button Tor anonymized interwebs


Asphyxium
I love how retarded Republicans

Just stop talking about Republicans. At this point the only people who support them are completely insane. Admittedly, it's a large number of people...
 
2013-06-16 12:34:49 AM  

djkutch: Bin Laden got every thing he wanted. Good job, America.

And, for the bootlickers mentioned by Nabb1, it starts with the Patriot Act. Obama isn't innocent, but please remember the administration and party that was in power that started it all.


That would be the Carter administration, since the secret government court for this was started in 1978.
 
2013-06-16 12:36:21 AM  

R.A.Danny: Gyrfalcon: R.A.Danny: DeaH: Repeal the Patriot Act and any law that okays this sort of thing. And, while we're at it, fire KILL a whole bunch of people over this.


We are pretty much at a point where a Second Amendment solution is appropriate.

Not quite. Before a revolution can be successful, the government has to be unable to pay the military.

We're really at a historic point when you bring up the subject of revolution though. You gotta admit that no matter what side of the subject you are on.


Well, it's closer to likely than it has been before; which is still not very likely. Too many things still have to happen. And if there is, it would probably be the Teahadists and the militias stringing up the barbed wire and daring everyone else to cross their line (and we'd all say "No, you're fine where you are" and go about our business). But realistically speaking, before a revolution can succeed, the revolutionaries have to be at least 95% assured that not only can they take on the military (a favorite wet dream of gun-nuts everywhere) but that the military will not shoot back. And unless or until that day comes, no revolution can ever succeed.

That's why the rebels in Libya had to ask for help from France before they could finally take Qaddafi down; and why Assad had to turn to sarin gas but is still in control of his government. The rebels can fight the army on their own terms; but so long as the guys with the big guns are obeying orders, the rebels can't win UNLESS someone with bigger guns helps out. Or unless the army turns around and shoots the leaders behind the lines, as Mubarak found out.

America isn't nearly to that point yet. Our "rebels" aren't nearly as organized or unified; and even if they were, they can't fight the US Marines on their own terms. So any revolution has to depend on the Marines shooting the other way and that's not nearly close to being possible yet. You don't shoot the guy who writes your check.
 
2013-06-16 12:37:28 AM  
Bush was throwing puppies into a wood chipper so I'm going to keep throwing puppies into a wood chipper.

This is how Democrats really think.
 
2013-06-16 12:37:52 AM  

Granny_Panties: The thing that dumbfounds me the most about this "leak" is the fact that you idiots didn't know this was happening since 2001.

Is everyone here a bunch of morons? What did you guys think the Patriot Act was? Most of the morans that are whining about this "intrusion" are the same idiots that said I hated America when anyone with 1/2 a brain knew this was what was going to happen.

God damn people are stupid. fark.


this nation   of  bootlickers
 
2013-06-16 12:38:48 AM  

Granny_Panties: This was a Republican act. Own up to it. Obama was just doing what his masters told him to do. The only thing Obama did here was spinelessly went along for the ride.


Go fark yourself

The PATRIOT act was as bipartisan as it gets.
 
2013-06-16 12:39:43 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Well, it's closer to likely than it has been before; which is still not very likely. Too many things still have to happen. And if there is, it would probably be the Teahadists and the militias stringing up the barbed wire and daring everyone else to cross their line (and we'd all say "No, you're fine where you are" and go about our business). But realistically speaking, before a revolution can succeed, the revolutionaries have to be at least 95% assured that not only can they take on the military (a favorite wet dream of gun-nuts everywhere) but that the military will not shoot back. And unless or until that day comes, no revolution can ever succeed.


If you look at most of the recent revolutions and the present uprisings you'll notice one thing: None of those revolting are fat asses.

Yeah, we'll accept the status quo so long as we're able to go to McDonalds and fill our pie holes. it's pathetic.
 
2013-06-16 12:39:58 AM  
Sad tag is being secretly held without bail.
 
2013-06-16 12:40:04 AM  
Sure we've known they've been doing this since the Patriot Act?
 
m00
2013-06-16 12:41:09 AM  

Lsherm: What scares me is that Obama was told something AFTER he was elected that clearly changed his mind on this. What the fark is he told every day in his security briefing? Has to be some scary shiat.


I thought about this.

I think after he was elected, but before he took office. He had the "presidential handoff thing" with Bush. It went something like this:

Obama: Hey Bush, I have some questions. Even though we are from different political parties, I believe in mutual respect and want to hear your thoughts.
Bush: Shoot, pardner
Obama: What was the toughest thing you ever had to do?
Bush: Do? Presidents don't do anything. I just sat around and did some busy-work policy. Nothing that really matters.
Obama: With all due respect Mr. Bush, but I'm going to clean up Washington. Starting with Gitmo, Patriot Act...
Bush: Hold on son. I had the same conversation with Clinton when I took office. I didn't want nation building. I wanted smaller government. I thought the war in Iraq was a bad idea. But you do what you're told to do.
Obama: Oh, come on. You're telling me your hands were tied on this?
Bush: I'm going to give you a file here. It will take you awhile to digest. Hell, when I read this file I thought Ol Slick Willy was putting one over on me. But let me tell you a bit about history. In the 1950s, we made contact with aliens. That's right, little green men. They came from a small cluster of stars -- about 1000 -- that's on the edge of the milky way. It's there due to dark matter or some such. Well, after the first contact, they started to infiltrate us. They weren't peaceful. But hell we deserve it for what we did to the Indians. Nixon, bless his heart, sat down with the Soviets and hammered out a deal, that we would be partners in this war.
Obama: You're kidding me.
Bush: Sadly, I'm not. Now the whole Watergate thing was Nixon trying to keep a lid on this. Could you imagine if people knew? There would be panic on the streets. Riots. Chaos. End of civilization. Hell, the US Presidency had sovereignty until under Carter when certain people with a lot of power decided it was best not to let citizens pick their leaders. So Reagan was the first president picked by the group. He had the charisma to pull it off. He was chosen because as an actor, well... he'd be able to keep everything on the "down low" as my daughters say. Really sell the whole debt thing.
Obama: Aliens? Really?
Bush: That's right. It hasn't been all bad. In the 1990s we were able to reverse engineer some of their technology. That's what Moore's law is -- the more technology we can reverse engineer, the more we're able to. Anyway, we had to tell Gore about this so he would stop contesting the election, and that's why he grew a beard and went off the deep end there for a bit.
Obama: So, we're in a galactic war with Aliens... and the President is a puppet... what about Iraq, the Patriot Act... axis of evil...
Bush: Well, the Iraq thing is tricky. The aliens, well they'd been here before. The prophet Mohammed was an attempt at taking over the world through religion. See, these little buggers have some sort of mind control. But they can't use it on public figures because it completely changes their personality. One of the side affects of even being in the vicinity of a MCH  -- mind controlled human that is -- you'll learn the jargon soon enough -- is it turns people homosexual. Part of the reason I wanted to keep the sodomy laws on the books is it was a good way to sniff out activity. I have no problem with gay marriage, but it's easier to monitor mind control incidents by tracking pride rallies. If homosexuality was perceived as normal, then we'd be lost if the aliens ever moved out of their San Francisco stronghold.
Obama: You were talking about Iraq...
Bush: Oh, I was getting ahead of myself there. You see, Saddam was convinced by the aliens that he was the next prophet. See they couldn't mind control him, because his personality would change. Saddam was letting them build a massive Mind Control generator in Iraq that could be used to enslave all of us. Out there in the desert. Due to the earth's magnetic currents, building the thing in the middle east would have amplified the signal... covered the whole world. That's what we were there for. The whole nuke thing was the best we could come up with. But they've been doing this for years. You think the Soviets really wanted to invade Afghanistan? Carter, the dummy, tried to block the war for humanitarian reasons. That's why Americans don't get to vote for their president any more. Diebold made that a lot easier for us to hide.
Obama: And... the Patriot Act...?
Bush: Funny thing about these aliens is that they don't talk like you and me. They use telepathic communication. Because it's all electromagnetic based, that's what the boys in A51 say, the aliens can tap into cell phones, internet, whatever... and pretend to talk to people. So see this phone here? Lets say Dick Cheney calls me up. I can't tell if it's Dick Cheney or an alien foolin' the system. Now with enough data crunching, we can tell. Also figure out where they are transmitting from. We're working on a way to monitor all communication devices and dump the data on a server somewhere. Then go through it and figure out which calls have been spoofed. It's called PRISM. You'll be briefed on it later.
Obama: This is insane! A war with aliens! Mind control! I have to tell someone!
Bush: Oh, I wouldn't be doing that. No, sir. The group wouldn't like it very much. There would be consequences. That message would never get out. You think the Secret Service is here to protect us? No, they're here to keep things running smoothly.
Obama: I see. This is mind-blowing. So who runs things?
Bush: Well, it's those Bliderberg guys. They have a lot going on, but running this country is one of them. It's not all bad.
Obama: A puppet, you're telling me I'm a puppet and I can't do anything about it.
Bush: Oh, it ain't all bad. You can play a lot of golf, give fancy speeches. Hell, the election won't even matter. If you say the right things, they'll give you a second term. I've never read so many books as I did being president. You signed up to serve your country right? Well, this is the service it needs.
Obama: Okay. Okay. This will be okay.
Bush: One more thing. Watch out for that Ron Paul fellow. With think the aliens got to him. As I said, the mind control leaves some strange footprints on a man's personality.
Obama: Who else has been compromised?
Bush: Well, Denis Kucinich. Denis Rodman. The whole Kim family over in North Korea. Most suicide bombers, but you don't know that till later. The psych boys have a profile worked up if you're interested, but we got agencies to deal with that.
Obama: I need some time... to think about this...
Bush: Sure, sure. Take your time. It's not easy. In the beginning of my term, I thought I would be a bit subversive. You know, let a few hints slide here and there. I hate being under someone's thumb. But boy, then they stated writing my speeches to make me sound like a moron. So it's easier just to do what they say. They'll put the words on the teleprompter. Just read them and smile.
Obama: Thanks, George. I think I can do this.
Bush: Sure you can. They wouldn't have picked you if you couldn't. And hell, ol' Hillary already knows about this. If you don't think you're ready, arrangements can be made. But they want her in 2016 for some reason. I think they're going to crash the housing and banking sector as a distraction to hide the massive cost of this war. But don't tell anyone you heard that from me, that's a bit above my pay grade.
Obama: I'll be in touch. Take care George.
Bush: See ya! Read that file, let me know if you have any questions. Also, if you get in any trouble just call up the Koch brothers. Good people.
 
2013-06-16 12:41:38 AM  

Rwa2play:

Nabb1: I'm sure the bootlickers will be here soon enough to tell us we have no reason to be upset.

Upset?  Yeah, but what makes anybody think that the President could've said "End it." and it would've?

Oh, come on...   I know we haven't had any in quite a while, but that's what LEADERSHIP is....   It might go like this:

"General Alexander, as Director of the NSA, you are hereby ordered to cease and desist ANY activity pursuant to intelligence operations which violate the Constitutional rights of U.S. citizens.  Do this immediately."

"Yes, sir."


...  Two weeks later:

"General Alexander, I note that the NSA is still carrying on extra-constitutional spying on U.S. citizens."

"Only when absolutely necessary, Mr. President."

"Sergeant, place General Alexander under arrest, and convene a courts martial to determine if his violations are serious enough to warrant execution."

"General Alexander, your weapon please, and please come with me..."

"Hello, Secretary of Defense?   This is the President.  I need you to recommend a new NSA Director -- one who will follow the Constitution, according to the oath.   Yes, right away."


The above might have to be repeated several times. The NSA director reports to the Sec Def, who reports to the President. It's not like convincing Congress to pass legislation, it is a case of military orders passed down from the Commander in Chief.

 
2013-06-16 12:41:54 AM  
What really makes all this wonderful is that most Senators skipped the classified NSA briefing on Friday, so they could get home early.
 
2013-06-16 12:43:58 AM  

Vectron: The MSM is complicit in all this. Everyone needs to kill their television.
Remember Howard Dean's Yell? How it was played over and over again all that weekend?
Why? He was anti-war.


I'm firmly convinced that "unelectable" is nothing more than a code phrase meaning "we don't own them".

The corporate owned media certainly does spend a whole lot of time telling us who is "unelectable" and that if we don't vote for one of the two "electable" choices they give us, we're just "wasting our vote".

It cuts down on the number of people they have to buy off.
 
2013-06-16 12:44:21 AM  

jpo2269: EngineerAU,

Given your level of experience and expertise, I would sincerely would like to hear your opinion on how to balance the government's "need to know" and our individual rights to privacy...

While you have pointed out the lax security at many facilities, I am still perplexed as how Bradley Manning and Eric Snowden walk out of secured facilities with a treasure trove of top-secret information...

Lastly, I am not angry with Snowden (at this point) for how he released the information, but I feel Bradley Manning is a traitor.  Am I wrong?


None of my experience is in top secret agencies. Think things more like the FDA or your local DMV. So I can't really say much on how government secrets could best be kept but for sensitive data in other agencies and in Fortune 500 companies, making a bit of effort would be a good start. Seriously, most of these places hand over the keys to the kingdom to everyone who walks in the door of the IT department.  Blocking people from using USB drives and taking them home with them wouldn't be such an issue if the data copied on to them wasn't easily accessible to so many in the first place. Restricting access to only those who need it slows down development of new products and makes it much harder to manage data. There's a cost involved both financially and in terms of opportunity costs. Until there is real pain involved beyond a token fine and an embarrassing news story that's soon forgotten, most places aren't going to go through the extra effort to protect data. It requires extra people, annoys other people trying to get their job done, and slows everything down. But if we want to have privacy, it's an expense that must be paid.

I'm not really in a position to say you're right or wrong about your feelings on Snowden or Manning. In both cases we discovered our government doing things that we'd rather think ir doesn't do. The things that Manning released that get him labeled a traitor are the things you'd expect our government to do (have spies inside terrorist organizations and hostile governments). The other things he released, such as how much government spying is done for the benefit of corporate interests, needs to get more attention. Not that using government and military resources to help corporations get what they want is anything new but it's still a part of our spy structure that most don't recognize as existing. Should we really put people in harms way so GE can learn what Siemens is up to and do it at taxpayer expense?
 
2013-06-16 12:44:33 AM  

Corn_Fed: What really makes all this wonderful is that most Senators skipped the classified NSA briefing on Friday, so they could get home early.


Most being Democrats.
 
2013-06-16 12:47:35 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Bush was throwing puppies into a wood chipper so I'm going to keep throwing puppies into a wood chipper.

This is how Democrats really think.


1/10.  Even for you that's weak.
 
2013-06-16 12:48:14 AM  

m00: Lsherm: What scares me is that Obama was told something AFTER he was elected that clearly changed his mind on this. What the fark is he told every day in his security briefing? Has to be some scary shiat.

I thought about this.

I think after he was elected, but before he took office. He had the "presidential handoff thing" with Bush. It went something like this:

Obama: Hey Bush, I have some questions. Even though we are from different political parties, I believe in mutual respect and want to hear your thoughts.
Bush: Shoot, pardner
Obama: What was the toughest thing you ever had to do?
Bush: Do? Presidents don't do anything. I just sat around and did some busy-work policy. Nothing that really matters.
Obama: With all due respect Mr. Bush, but I'm going to clean up Washington. Starting with Gitmo, Patriot Act...
Bush: Hold on son. I had the same conversation with Clinton when I took office. I didn't want nation building. I wanted smaller government. I thought the war in Iraq was a bad idea. But you do what you're told to do.
Obama: Oh, come on. You're telling me your hands were tied on this?
Bush: I'm going to give you a file here. It will take you awhile to digest. Hell, when I read this file I thought Ol Slick Willy was putting one over on me. But let me tell you a bit about history. In the 1950s, we made contact with aliens. That's right, little green men. They came from a small cluster of stars -- about 1000 -- that's on the edge of the milky way. It's there due to dark matter or some such. Well, after the first contact, they started to infiltrate us. They weren't peaceful. But hell we deserve it for what we did to the Indians. Nixon, bless his heart, sat down with the Soviets and hammered out a deal, that we would be partners in this war.
Obama: You're kidding me.
Bush: Sadly, I'm not. Now the whole Watergate thing was Nixon trying to keep a lid on this. Could you imagine if people knew? There would be panic on the streets. Riots. Chaos. End of civilization. ...


tl;dr
 
2013-06-16 12:48:22 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Corn_Fed: What really makes all this wonderful is that most Senators skipped the classified NSA briefing on Friday, so they could get home early.

Most being Democrats.


Citation Needed

I really want to know exactly who skipped this meeting.

My shiat list needs updating.
 
2013-06-16 12:48:26 AM  

LordJiro:

There hasn't been a progressive in office for decades. Democrats are center-right authoritarians, while Republicans are extreme-right authoritarians. Just because Fox says every Democrat is the most liberal lib EVAR doesn't make it true.

If Democrats are "center-right" and Republicans are "far-right," then who has made this country about half socialist? The problem is, YOU are a bit to the left of Che Guevara, so EVERYBODY looks like a rightist -- to you.
 
2013-06-16 12:48:33 AM  

Bucky Katt: Popcorn Johnny: Bush was throwing puppies into a wood chipper so I'm going to keep throwing puppies into a wood chipper.

This is how Democrats really think.

1/10.  Even for you that's weak.


The fact that you think I'm trolling just shows how blinded your side is.
 
2013-06-16 12:49:06 AM  
*sigh*
 
2013-06-16 12:50:14 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Bucky Katt: Popcorn Johnny: Bush was throwing puppies into a wood chipper so I'm going to keep throwing puppies into a wood chipper.

This is how Democrats really think.

1/10.  Even for you that's weak.

The fact that you think I'm trolling just shows how blinded your side is.


Do you have something with with who skipped?
 
2013-06-16 12:53:00 AM  

GeneralJim: LordJiro: There hasn't been a progressive in office for decades. Democrats are center-right authoritarians, while Republicans are extreme-right authoritarians. Just because Fox says every Democrat is the most liberal lib EVAR doesn't make it true.
If Democrats are "center-right" and Republicans are "far-right," then who has made this country about half socialist? The problem is, YOU are a bit to the left of Che Guevara, so EVERYBODY looks like a rightist -- to you.


"Half socialist." In a country with 7% union penetration and mass privatization in every sector of government. You're beyond ridiculous.
 
2013-06-16 12:53:09 AM  
Good night and....

cdn.thedroidguy.com

pleasant dreams, everyone.
 
2013-06-16 12:53:23 AM  

R.A.Danny: Do you have something with with who skipped?


Nothing I've seen named names, and I want to see the names of the members who skipped the meeting so I can forevermore oppose their reelection.
 
2013-06-16 12:54:23 AM  

m00: Lsherm: What scares me is that Obama was told something AFTER he was elected that clearly changed his mind on this. What the fark is he told every day in his security briefing? Has to be some scary shiat.

I thought about this.

I think after he was elected, but before he took office. He had the "presidential handoff thing" with Bush. It went something like this:

Obama: Hey Bush, I have some questions. Even though we are from different political parties, I believe in mutual respect and want to hear your thoughts.
Bush: Shoot, pardner
Obama: What was the toughest thing you ever had to do?
Bush: Do? Presidents don't do anything. I just sat around and did some busy-work policy. Nothing that really matters.
Obama: With all due respect Mr. Bush, but I'm going to clean up Washington. Starting with Gitmo, Patriot Act...
Bush: Hold on son. I had the same conversation with Clinton when I took office. I didn't want nation building. I wanted smaller government. I thought the war in Iraq was a bad idea. But you do what you're told to do.
Obama: Oh, come on. You're telling me your hands were tied on this?
Bush: I'm going to give you a file here. It will take you awhile to digest. Hell, when I read this file I thought Ol Slick Willy was putting one over on me. But let me tell you a bit about history. In the 1950s, we made contact with aliens. That's right, little green men. They came from a small cluster of stars -- about 1000 -- that's on the edge of the milky way. It's there due to dark matter or some such. Well, after the first contact, they started to infiltrate us. They weren't peaceful. But hell we deserve it for what we did to the Indians. Nixon, bless his heart, sat down with the Soviets and hammered out a deal, that we would be partners in this war.
Obama: You're kidding me.
Bush: Sadly, I'm not. Now the whole Watergate thing was Nixon trying to keep a lid on this. Could you imagine if people knew? There would be panic on the streets. Riots. Chaos. End of civilization. ...


Brilliant.  Simply brilliant.
 
2013-06-16 12:54:27 AM  
Warrants?

They don't even need badges....
 
2013-06-16 12:55:37 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: Bucky Katt: Popcorn Johnny: Bush was throwing puppies into a wood chipper so I'm going to keep throwing puppies into a wood chipper.

This is how Democrats really think.

1/10.  Even for you that's weak.

The fact that you think I'm trolling just shows how blinded your side is.


Do tell, Gracie, what side would that be?
 
2013-06-16 12:55:39 AM  

BullBearMS: R.A.Danny: Do you have something with with who skipped?

Nothing I've seen named names, and I want to see the names of the members who skipped the meeting so I can forevermore oppose their reelection.


That's why I'm asking for a citation. Not that I am accusing anyone of being dishonest, I really want to know who skipped.
 
2013-06-16 12:56:24 AM  

EngineerAU:

jpo2269: However, the picture being painted is not what makes a "free society" and when an analyst can just decide to listen in on a call without someone being held accountable, things have gone entirely too far.

Unfortunately this is how things are done all over the place. When I was a consultant, almost every large company or government agency I worked for had their databases wide open. In some cases there were a few restrictions in place on which employees could access the databases directly but anyone with database access was able to get into almost anything. I can think of only two exceptions: one was a law firm that kept a small amount of information about current cases tightly controlled (though we did find an unencrypted Access database on the webserver full of credit card numbers in a public directory) and the headquarters of Home Depot, which kept data locked down pretty well. Almost everyone else was wide open internally. A few made me sign an NDA but I'm sure most would rather I simply not have access to their medical files in the first place. Rarely did I not have access to tons of databases filled with things totally unrelated to what I was working on. Digital information security in general is a joke.

Correct.  I was a consultant for the Health Department, and the database of all the state citizens with AIDS was left on a conference table, unencrypted, on a disk, neatly labeled, with nobody in the room.  I picked it up and delivered it to the chief of security, who almost crapped himself.  This was supposedly their "most secure" data.   Right.
 
2013-06-16 12:58:31 AM  
Since 1914.  And stepped up from the 1920s.  Mitchell Palmer, Jedgar Hoover, blah, blah, blah.
recollectionbooks.com
 
2013-06-16 12:58:50 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: GeneralJim: LordJiro: There hasn't been a progressive in office for decades. Democrats are center-right authoritarians, while Republicans are extreme-right authoritarians. Just because Fox says every Democrat is the most liberal lib EVAR doesn't make it true.
If Democrats are "center-right" and Republicans are "far-right," then who has made this country about half socialist? The problem is, YOU are a bit to the left of Che Guevara, so EVERYBODY looks like a rightist -- to you.

"Half socialist." In a country with 7% union penetration and mass privatization in every sector of government. You're beyond ridiculous.


Hey, everybody, let's get into a partisan slap fight, and ignore that we are being farked!  That always works so well.

If you can't win, you may as well be entertained.
 
2013-06-16 01:05:43 AM  
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/15/nsa-phone-calls-warrant_n_34 4 8299.html

Huffington Post footage. Not sure whether or not c net's got it right. Their headline may be misleading.
 
2013-06-16 01:08:22 AM  

LordJiro: Doesn't matter one damn bit. There's nobody, NOBODY who has even a snowball's chance in Hell of getting elected that will get rid of this kind of power. The surveillance state took root decades ago, and we're not getting rid of it. Ever,

If you thought Obama would, or think Elizabeth Warren or, RON PAUL, or whoever would...You're a farking idiot.


True.
I would add that the average american likely supports this stuff anyways.

Pants pissing is common in response to a threat like terror.people will continue crying for safety until they have dry warm pants on again.
 
2013-06-16 01:08:53 AM  
cptjeff
Health Care Reform. Not as good as it could or should have been, but a really big farking deal nonetheless.

Possibly better than what existed before, but all of the liberals' yapping about how progressives needed to get on board because it would be a stepping stone to single-payer or some other kind of UHC (or even government option) turned out to be nothing but excuses to get them to shut up long enough for the media to assume the healthcare was solved forever.

Seriously, you guys need to start recognizing that you are the only faction that likes ACA.

Bank Reform. See above.

lol

Stopped a Recession from deepening and started a slow recovery, despite massive opposition.

Used massive government debt to momentarily avert further disaster, until that gets worked through in which

Saved the US Auto Industry.

oh thank god, because car culture is so awesome.
Those factories and workers should have been put to work making wind turbines and trains instead of perpetuating the old, dead economy. But "keep things exactly the same" has been Obama's real slogan since day 1.

Dismantled the Minerals Management Service.

Okay, that's one.

Ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Great, now more people can participate in our imperial adventures.

Signed Hate Crimes legislation for crimes targeting LGBT victims.
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
Got the VAWA re-authorization passed over significant Republican opposition.


Blatant pandering

Dramatically revamped US Foreign Policy to work in a much smarter way.

Babble

Ended the Iraq War

Obama wanted to keep some troops but the Iraqi government wouldn't give them legal immunity.
Oh, and the Iraqi Civil War is still going strong, with bombings routinely killing dozens of people. But, yeah, it's over or whatever. Granted, that was the inevitable result of the invasion, which was mostly Bush's doing, with the explicit approval of the Democrats who voted to give him that option in 2002, even while we were screaming at them that it would be a disaster.

In the process of ending the Afghanistan War.

like how the sun is in the process of burning out?

Changed US armed engagement strategy from the use of conventional forces to lower impact targeted strikes and special forces missions.

yay for assassinations of noncombatants and American citizens without anything resembling due process. Double-tapping a 16 year old from Colorado, classy!

Tried to close Gitmo.

Not sure I'd even call his effort half-hearted. Sixteenth-hearted at best.

Ended torture and released the Bush torture memos.

Refused to investigate and prosecute. Continues torturing Gitmo hunger strikers with tube force-feeding.

Negotiated and passed a new SALT Treaty.
New GI Bill


well thank goodness

Raised taxes on the wealthy while maintaining lower middle class rates
Increased fuel economy standards and allowed states to raise standards above the Federal level
CO2 ruled to be a pollutant.
Stricter labor and environmental enforcement within existing free trade agreements.


Usually these lists are more specific.


BullBearMS
Didn't stop the tea party from tossing incumbents on their ass.

And all they had helping them was millions of dollars in backing from a bunch of oligarchs to fund a slick astroturf campaign promoted by a major cable network. Bootstrappy.
 
2013-06-16 01:09:20 AM  
The oath to uphold the US Constitution must just be a big PITA for some of these farks. Probably a big damn inconvenience.
 
PKY
2013-06-16 01:11:58 AM  
A long list of nothings, tried tos and WGAS.
 
2013-06-16 01:12:15 AM  
Glenn Greenwald appears to be telegraphing that he has something more to come on this: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/346057044949864449

//See comments, replies or whatever the fark you call the back/forth on Twitter
 
2013-06-16 01:12:59 AM  

EdNortonsTwin: The oath to uphold the US Constitution must just be a big PITA for some of these farks. Probably a big damn inconvenience.


I took it just like every other Marine. One wonders what they think of that oath.
 
2013-06-16 01:14:03 AM  

ghare:

Nabb1: I'm sure the bootlickers will be here soon enough to tell us we have no reason to be upset.

56% of Americans want them to do it. Who is the bootlicker?

YOU are. Do the questions get harder as we go along?
 
2013-06-16 01:16:54 AM  

R.A.Danny: We are pretty much at a point where a Second Amendment solution is appropriate.


In a stable democracy like the US, that "solution" would never be appropriate.

The great majority of us do not want Revolution 2: Electric Boogaloo or whatever mob-style anarchy horror that comes to mind.


Again, the only way we are going to change is through the system, from the top down. Sorry to harsh your mellow.
 
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