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(C|Net)   NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants   (news.cnet.com) divider line 781
    More: Obvious, NSA, United States, phone calls, FISA Amendments Act, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, Legal liability, Internet Archive  
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11302 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jun 2013 at 9:41 PM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-15 10:54:13 PM

OgreMagi: Look at how things were done under Bush. Compare them to how things are now being done under Obama. Do you see a difference? No, you don't.


Yes, I do. I see quite a few differences. Not as many as I'd like to see on this issue, but if you can't see quite a few very major differences between Bush and Obama, then I'm glad you're choosing to remove yourself from even the tiny levels of influence you might have had.
 
2013-06-15 10:54:19 PM

jack21221: bunner: You know what metadata is without the accompanying content?  A DNA sample with nothing to match it to.  The collect all of it or  they're dense as dirt.

This thread isn't about metadata. What are you talking about?


an earlier post from general jim about a post in a thread that was about tapping metadata only.
 
2013-06-15 10:55:02 PM

jack21221: 0x1a4: How?  By voting libertarian?  I've been doing that for a couple decades.  The R's and D's lie about it to get elected, and then make excuses for supporting it.  The D's get pissed when the R's do it.  The R's get pissed when the D's do it.  But when it comes down to it, our elected officials all vote to keep their power.   What do you define as a 'No' vote?  Not voting at all?

The solution might be in voting for non-establishment candidates within the Republican or Democratic party. Before the primaries, there are usually one or two candidates that the party leadership has deemed the "real" candidate(s), and everybody else is fringe. Start supporting these "insurgent" candidates in the major parties if you agree with them.


Oh yea. The biggest chance to change a party from within is through primary challenges.

So few people vote in primaries that a small number of people have a large opportunity to effect change.
 
2013-06-15 10:55:16 PM

OgreMagi: cptjeff: OgreMagi: Let me repeat.  VOTE THIRD PARTY.  I don't care which third party.  Just stop farking voting for democrats and republicans.

And for you idiots who say, "Oh, noes! That would destroy our entire political system."  YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT IT WOULD.  That's called a feature.  Causing a complete collapse of the existing political process is a damn sight better than armed insurrection.

No, the issue, and why everybody with a even the slightest understanding of how this stuff works thinks you're in idiot, is that it wouldn't do a damned thing to our political system. Voting for a third party wastes your vote, nothing else. It does not make a statement- the people you would be trying to make a statement to do not pay attention or care. the only thing it can ever do is increase the odds of the major party candidate you would find to be the most distasteful.

Put your energy into major party primaries and fermenting public debate. What issues we're talking about and how we're talking about them matters.

Standard sock puppet answer.  It will waste your vote, so you must vote for a republican/democrat.

No, it doesn't farking waste my vote.  There is no chance in hell I will ever again vote for a democrat or republican.  Because voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.  I will vote my conscious and not care if it swings to vote for some criminal with a D or R after his name, because it doesn't farking matter which one wins.  You get the same result.

Look at how things were done under Bush.  Compare them to how things are now being done under Obama.  Do you see a difference?  No, you don't.  Because they both work for the same farking party.  The "we have the power so fark the people" party.

You are part of the problem.  You help perpetuate the lie that a third party vote is a waste and a bad thing.  You've been brainwashed into believing that shiat and you help pass along "the one true message."  People like you are pathetic tools.


Let me be the first to say seconded for the Third Party idea to get back our Fourth Amendment.
 
2013-06-15 10:55:45 PM

DmGdDawg: Look, I don't like it more than anyone else, but if we don't allow this slight intrusion on our privacy, do you know what would happen? JONES would come back!!! Comrades, don't you remember how terrible it was when Jones was running thing???

FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!
FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!
FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!
FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!
FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!
FOUR LEGS GOOD!
TWO LEGS BAD!


I think we should all just work harder, even if some animals are more equal than others.
 
2013-06-15 10:55:47 PM
CSB Time: I was a van driver for the Ragnar Relay Race in Niagara/Ontario this weekend and this was the logo we had taped to the side of our van:

i.imgur.com

The Border Patrol did not seem amused.
 
2013-06-15 10:55:59 PM

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Hey, I got a few skids of paranoia, hyperbole and Nazi Germany metaphors on the 18 wheeler out front. Someone is going to have to sign for it before it gets unloaded on this thread.


Nazi germany wasn't a surveillance state, take it back.  We ordered soviet Russia metaphors, since that's actually a fairly valid analogy in many ways.

bunner: You know what metadata is without the accompanying content?


Something completely unrelated to what the NSA was doing here?  All their surveillance is personally identifiable, they can put in a search on a specific time and get back a list of names and addresses.

So either you don't know what the NSA scandal is about, or you don't actually know what metadata is.  Both, maybe?
 
2013-06-15 10:56:08 PM

skinink: Well, I guess there's nothing left for anyone to do except play their saxophone.

[criticalmassesmedia.com image 800x507]


The solution to 1974 is 1988?

Farked if I know, at the rate we're going, maybe it is.
 
2013-06-15 10:56:43 PM

badhatharry: Imagine the outrage if a Republican was in office. That's why you should vote Republican. Nixon got shiatcanned for bugging an office.


This shiat DID happen when a Republican was in office, you twat. And liberals were outraged, but you called us 'traitors' and 'weak on terror', and said we were 'aiding the enemy'. And WE FARKING TOLD YOU that once this genie was out of the bottle, there was no putting it back. We WARNED you to think of what would happen if that power was in the hands of someone you didn't like. And you STILL called us traitors.
 
2013-06-15 10:56:44 PM
move alone, citizen
 
2013-06-15 10:57:27 PM
cptjeff:
No, the issue, and why everybody with a even the slightest understanding of how this stuff works thinks you're in idiot, is that it wouldn't do a damned thing to our political system. Voting for a third party wastes your vote, nothing else. It does not make a statement- the people you would be trying to make a statement to do not pay attention or care. the only thing it can ever do is increase the odds of the major party candidate you would find to be the most distasteful.

Put your energy into major party primaries and fermenting public debate. What issues we're talking about and how we're talking about them matters.


That's so cute you think either major party would ever give up power.  Which letter are you supporting?  Bush pushed the PATRIOT act, Obama campained against it, and has supported it since he took office.  Why should we believe anything either side says anymore?  Wasting my vote is voting for either one of those assholes.

/Yes, this started long before Bush.  Was it when a third party held the presidency and the majority of Congress?
 
2013-06-15 10:57:36 PM

jack21221: 0x1a4: How?  By voting libertarian?  I've been doing that for a couple decades.  The R's and D's lie about it to get elected, and then make excuses for supporting it.  The D's get pissed when the R's do it.  The R's get pissed when the D's do it.  But when it comes down to it, our elected officials all vote to keep their power.   What do you define as a 'No' vote?  Not voting at all?

The solution might be in voting for non-establishment candidates within the Republican or Democratic party. Before the primaries, there are usually one or two candidates that the party leadership has deemed the "real" candidate(s), and everybody else is fringe. Start supporting these "insurgent" candidates in the major parties if you agree with them.


And why would you assume these "non-establishment" types would be any better? The problem is that, once elected, the available power is intoxicating for EVERYONE.
 
2013-06-15 10:57:57 PM

Jim_Callahan: So either you don't know what the NSA scandal is about, or you don't actually know what metadata is.  Both, maybe?


Or you didn't read the post I replied to or you desperately need to come here and sell snide postures of "1337ness" to anybody who's buying.  I ain't.  Take it back to Wal Mart
 
2013-06-15 10:57:57 PM
move *along*, citizen
 
2013-06-15 10:57:57 PM
I Like Bread


Not surprised. The government has overstepped its power for decades and no one has been too interested in stopping it. Find me a candidate who will bring the NSA and FBI to heel without also being an anti-establishment nutcase and I'll vote for him.

Circular logic like that, could form a tornado.

Translation "Find me someone that doesn't support this while completely supporting this". uh huh

Guess how we can tell you're an obama voter. Go ahead, guess.
 
2013-06-15 10:58:06 PM

Jim_Callahan: SockMonkeyHolocaust: Hey, I got a few skids of paranoia, hyperbole and Nazi Germany metaphors on the 18 wheeler out front. Someone is going to have to sign for it before it gets unloaded on this thread.

Nazi germany wasn't a surveillance state, take it back.  We ordered soviet Russia metaphors, since that's actually a fairly valid analogy in many ways.


Although, the Stasi of East Germany is a great comparison.
 
2013-06-15 10:58:57 PM

BullBearMS: Oh yea. The biggest chance to change a party from within is through primary challenges.

So few people vote in primaries that a small number of people have a large opportunity to effect change.


It worked for the loons in the tea party, why not for sane people?
 
2013-06-15 10:59:00 PM

Lsherm: BullBearMS: In case you've forgotten just what Obama promised us on this...

Candidate Obama debates President Obama on Government Surveillance

What scares me is that Obama was told something AFTER he was elected that clearly changed his mind on this.  What the fark is he told every day in his security briefing?  Has to be some scary shiat.


He was brought into a smoke-filled room and shown a video of the Kennedy assassination from an angle the public hasn't seen.

media.tumblr.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRykTpw1RQ (NSFW)
 
2013-06-15 10:59:34 PM

cptjeff: OgreMagi: Look at how things were done under Bush. Compare them to how things are now being done under Obama. Do you see a difference? No, you don't.

Yes, I do. I see quite a few differences. Not as many as I'd like to see on this issue, but if you can't see quite a few very major differences between Bush and Obama, then I'm glad you're choosing to remove yourself from even the tiny levels of influence you might have had.


There is no difference where it matters.

We still have the government spying without probably cause.
We're still getting involved in foreign wars that are none of our farking business.
The rich still don't get prosecuted for raping financial institutions for immense profits.
Corporations still control our political process.

I could go on, but I doubt you actually care because you are happily part of the problem.
 
2013-06-15 10:59:51 PM

Corn_Fed: And why would you assume these "non-establishment" types would be any better? The problem is that, once elected, the available power is intoxicating for EVERYONE.


Even you? You'd be corrupt as soon as you got into office?
 
2013-06-15 10:59:55 PM

LordJiro: The surveillance was already established, but Bush cemented it with the PATRIOT act. And at the time, liberals were TELLING you cowardly shiatheads that, once given this power, the government would never get rid of it.


I was against the PATRIOT act from day 1, you insipid shiatstain. So take your holier-than-thou attitude, shove it up your ass, then kill yourself. I didn't vote for Bush either time and I didn't vote for Obama either time. I would rather "throw my vote away" than sink to your level of partisan football. Fark off.

/yes I mad
 
2013-06-15 11:00:02 PM

ghare: Nabb1: I'm sure the bootlickers will be here soon enough to tell us we have no reason to be upset.

56% of Americans want them to do it. Who is the bootlicker?


Oh look.

More Democratic party shills defending this.

More Americans disapprove (53%) than approve (37%) of the federal government agency program that as part of its efforts to investigate terrorism obtained records from U.S. telephone and Internet companies to "compile telephone call logs and Internet communications."

That was before they even knew their actual conversations were being recorded.
 
2013-06-15 11:00:08 PM
The sad truth is that, no matter how egregiously the NSA is violating the 4th Amendment, I don't think the American public at large gives a shiat. I suspect they won't rise up, they'll continue happily supporting this crap.
 
2013-06-15 11:00:09 PM

djkutch: Bin Laden got every thing he wanted. Good job, America.

And, for the bootlickers mentioned by Nabb1, it starts with the Patriot Act. Obama isn't innocent, but please remember the administration and party that was in power that started it all.


This, and this again.
 
2013-06-15 11:00:52 PM

Corn_Fed: The sad truth is that, no matter how egregiously the NSA is violating the 4th Amendment, I don't think the American public at large gives a shiat. I suspect they won't rise up, they'll continue happily supporting this crap.


I don't see you rising up, dude.
 
2013-06-15 11:01:13 PM

Gyrfalcon:

Nabb1: I'm sure the bootlickers will be here soon enough to tell us we have no reason to be upset.

Well, so much for having a rational discussion on the topic.

Hey, don't let his insensitive comment deter you -- lick away.


theraf69.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-15 11:02:01 PM

0x1a4: Wasting my vote is voting for either one of those assholes.


Which is why you use your vote to choose which asshole winds up on the ticket during the primary.

Engaging in the system moves the system closer to your aims, as the tea party has shown pretty damn well. Rejecting the system and going off on stupid attempts to defeat it gets you crushed by the system. But then you don't get to pretend you're superior to everybody else, so I suppose you lose on that front.
 
2013-06-15 11:02:15 PM

Herb Utsmelz: Late to the topic but I don't farking care about any privacy breaches.  They can snoopity snoop all they want.  Whatever they find they can use against me.  Yep.  I said it.  And they'd better hurry up.  I have thirty years to live at most.

Come at me motherf&ckers.  The fear is nonexistent.


7/10  a little obvious but you got several bites
 
2013-06-15 11:02:30 PM
EngineerAU,

Given your level of experience and expertise, I would sincerely would like to hear your opinion on how to balance the government's "need to know" and our individual rights to privacy...

While you have pointed out the lax security at many facilities, I am still perplexed as how Bradley Manning and Eric Snowden walk out of secured facilities with a treasure trove of top-secret information...

Lastly, I am not angry with Snowden (at this point) for how he released the information, but I feel Bradley Manning is a traitor.  Am I wrong?
 
2013-06-15 11:02:39 PM

jack21221: Corn_Fed: And why would you assume these "non-establishment" types would be any better? The problem is that, once elected, the available power is intoxicating for EVERYONE.

Even you? You'd be corrupt as soon as you got into office?


Oh HELL yeah!
 
2013-06-15 11:03:23 PM

jack21221: Corn_Fed: The sad truth is that, no matter how egregiously the NSA is violating the 4th Amendment, I don't think the American public at large gives a shiat. I suspect they won't rise up, they'll continue happily supporting this crap.

I don't see you rising up, dude.


I'm typing furiously!
 
2013-06-15 11:03:50 PM

OgreMagi: I could go on, but I doubt you actually care because you are happily part of the problem.


I do care about those issues, I just think you're a moron.
 
2013-06-15 11:04:08 PM
When I worked at the IRS, we weren't allowed to look up anything not directly related to something we were working on (and the system left a nice long trail if you did. Took about 8 months or so for it to catch up with you). For instance, I couldn't look up Beyonce's or Meryl Streep's tax records because I'd be fired (Clinton passed that one). Or my mom's or even my own. Nor could I handle the records of anyone I even MIGHT know. Most of these rules were in place because people hate paying taxes and congress thought the IRS was abusing its power.

Snowden actually raises the point that they can look at whatever they want because they are no rules in place to stop them. Sure warrants are required, but to punish the employees for misusing this power could lessen the power of the agency and warrants take longer than just looking at the data and confirming your suspicions or making sure your girlfriend isn't out with her "friend" again. When someone actually can dig through your life, we do nothing unless it there's a mild inconvenience like taxes to pin it on. Hopefully, we can get the same kind of laws for the NSA but I doubt it.
 
2013-06-15 11:04:57 PM
The NSA yesterday declined to comment to CNET.

Not even a "Was that wrong? Should we not have done that?"

So now they've gone from "Hey, we're only mining metadata here don't get upset" to "Hey, sure we're tapping phones but nobody is listening without a warrant" to "Hey, sure thousands of low level analysts could wiretap anyone's communications at anytime for any reason without any warrant or oversight or consequences but don't worry they all have good intentions and pure hearts".

The potential for this power to be abused is as massive as it seems inevitable.

What to do, though?

Both parties (with only a couple of notable exceptions) and the Executive seem to want the damn thing despite the concerns of their constituents. It appears to be a zero sum game here where the more secrecy the NSA engage in the less privacy everyone else ends up with.

NSA's annual budget is classified but is to be around $10 billion.

Classified? So... no sequester for those guys, eh? Figures.
 
2013-06-15 11:05:45 PM

LordJiro: Bush cemented it with the PATRIOT act


The Patriot Act that Obama, Reed, and Boehner just worked together to reauthorize for four more years without changes?

With as little publicity as possible?

dl.dropboxusercontent.com

As the AP put it, "The idea [of the deal] is to pass the extension with as little debate as possible to avoid a protracted and familiar argument over the expanded power the law gives to the government."

You keep on making lame ass excuses for your guy though.
 
2013-06-15 11:06:15 PM
This story was apparently posted seven hours ago, and yet I'm not seeing any mention of it in any major press outlet. Is there any confirmation, or are people just freaking out over nothing again?
 
2013-06-15 11:06:46 PM
I think the important thing is that we use this forum to blow snotty remarks at each other before going back to our safe, suburban, lower middle class lives.
 
2013-06-15 11:07:06 PM

fusillade762: Popcorn Johnny: This is in no way Obama's fault, the President is only to blame for crap like this when a Republican is in the White House.

I know it's shocking that the president might do something congress has apparently authorized him to do. You'll get over it.



Fark off troll, a real representative of the people would say "this isn't legal and I won't do it"

Yeah I'll get over it when a president takes his oath of office seriously, those aren't just word there is should be meaning behind it.
 
2013-06-15 11:08:11 PM

badhatharry: Imagine the outrage if a Republican was in office. That's why you should vote Republican. Nixon got shiatcanned for bugging an office.


You GOPers are such martyrs, but let's review:

<img src="http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2003/06/16/image558769g.jpg" >
Tricky Dick's Taint
What: Nixon's legacy of outright treason, rat-farking, dirty tricks, blackmail, enemies lists, burglary, bribery, wire tapping, McCarthyism, red-baiting, misuse of the IRS, corporate payoffs, money laundering, electoral and voter fraud, perjury, mafia ties, domestic spying by the CIA, anti-Semitism, racism, and war crimes.
Who: Taint carried by members of Nixon's administration who continue to infect others.  Such as
Roger Ailes (Der Leader of Fox News)
Pat Buchanan (Chardonnay-drinking, Brie-eating culture warrior)
Robert Bork (invented "original intent" as cover for reactionary social engineering and judicial activism)
Antonin Scalia (SCOTUS wild man)
Dick Cheney (war criminal)
Donald Rumsfeld (war criminal)
George H.W. Bush (took money from illegal Nixon slush fund and later gave us Clarence Thomas)
Karl Rove (member of CREEP and current GOP bagman)
David Gergan
John Warner
William Safire (a congenital liar)
Alan Greenspan (Ayn Rand devotee who enginered the housing/banking bubble)
Gerald Ford (eaten by wolves)
Warren Burger
Alexander Haig (war criminal)
George Schultz (has tatoo on his ass)
Caspar Weinberger (war criminal)
Spiro Agnew (a nattering nabob of negativity and outright racist)
William Renquist (Bush v. Gore)
Henry Kissinger (war criminal)
Ben Stein (creationist nutbag)
Hank Paulson (the Wall Street bailout was his idea)
Peter Peterson (Peterson Foundation and balanced budget jihadist)
G. Gordon Liddy (bagman and burglar turned propagandist)
E. Howard Hunt
Richard Helms (lied to Congress and given medal by Ronald Reagan)
H.R. Haldeman (crook)
John Ehrlichman (crook)
Charles Colson (convicted felon & advocate of theocracy)
(bribes and illegal contributions made by Howard Hughes, H. Ross Perot, Charles Rebozo, J. Paul Getty, and ITT)
 
2013-06-15 11:09:01 PM

djkutch:

Bin Laden got every thing he wanted. Good job, America.

And, for the bootlickers mentioned by Nabb1, it starts with the Patriot Act. Obama isn't innocent, but please remember the administration and party that was in power that started it all.

Personally, I prefer to remember the candidate who promised to end it, and extended and deepened it instead. Besides that, the USA PATRIOT Act passed the House 357 to 66, and passed the Senate by 98 to 1. Truly bipartisan bullshiat, despite your need to blame Bush.
 
2013-06-15 11:09:12 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Pro-tip to the teahadists: most liberals are angry at Obama over this, just as we were angry at Bush. For those of you who are only now "outraged" about this since a brown guy is in the White House, and didn't give a f*ck when this entire program began under Bush because "MURKA!!!", sorry, you have no right to an opinion. Eat a bag of dicks.


So only people who agree with you are entitled to an opinion?  If you really feel this way, you advocate a dictatorship where only government approved opinions are allowed to be expressed.

Try doing a bit of research.  If you did, you would know that tea party members don't care about the color of someone.  They do care about how government officials act and the harm their policies cause.  You'll also find out that many Democrats are bigots.  It was Democrats that kept black people in the south from voting for a hundred years.  It was Democrats who started segregation and who fought to keep it in the 50s and 60s.  LBJ needed Republican votes to pass the civil rights act because so many Democrats opposed it.  If you don't know which party Lincoln was a member of, I'll let you look it up.
 
2013-06-15 11:09:33 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: LordJiro: A Dark Evil Omen: LordJiro: And there is precisely DICK any of us can do about it.

Not true. There is plenty that can be done. If you mean "there's no one to vote for", that is true, but voting does not actually qualify as "doing anything".

What do you suggest?

Withdraw support for the capitalist state as much as possible. Trade or share instead of purchasing things, when you can. Pay cash when you can, buy and sell under the counter when you can. Try to work with co-ops and labor unions; keep the decisions, information and money associated with your work local. Any way you can make money not go into the government or capitalist structures, do it.

No, it doesn't immediately dismantle the national security state, but it does take some of your information out and helps undermine all of the structures that enable and create it. It will take a lot of people withdrawing support for the systems to start failing, but every person who starts making the effort... well, that's one step closer.


Why labor unions?  They are part of the reason this country is so farked up.  Break them all.  Start with the teachers unions.  Labor unions are as outdated as butter churns.  Sad state of affairs, but people need to remind their children NOT to trust the government.  After we "won" WWII, and things started getting "Cold Warry" is probably when things started really going south.  Now Obama will singlehandedly DOUBLE the national debt.  Then US committed suicide last November.  Romney is no rocket scientist, but he isn't an evil U.S. hater like B. Insane Obama.

In case of a nuclear attack, hide under your desks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUBEuGa1_HA     start at 50:12
 
2013-06-15 11:10:47 PM

GeneralJim: djkutch: Bin Laden got every thing he wanted. Good job, America.

And, for the bootlickers mentioned by Nabb1, it starts with the Patriot Act. Obama isn't innocent, but please remember the administration and party that was in power that started it all.
Personally, I prefer to remember the candidate who promised to end it, and extended and deepened it instead. Besides that, the USA PATRIOT Act passed the House 357 to 66, and passed the Senate by 98 to 1. Truly bipartisan bullshiat, despite your need to blame Bush.


Yes, we need to excise ALL rightists from power, regardless of party.
 
2013-06-15 11:11:05 PM

Corn_Fed: jack21221: Corn_Fed: The sad truth is that, no matter how egregiously the NSA is violating the 4th Amendment, I don't think the American public at large gives a shiat. I suspect they won't rise up, they'll continue happily supporting this crap.

I don't see you rising up, dude.

I'm typing furiously!


If you were thinking about rising up, you probably shouldn't talk about it here. They are listening.
 
2013-06-15 11:11:09 PM

LordJiro: This shiat DID happen when a Republican was in office, you twat. And liberals were outraged, but you called us 'traitors' and 'weak on terror', and said we were 'aiding the enemy'.


Yet here you are trying to make excuses for it now.

Proving you never opposed it in the first place.

This is why I have nothing but contempt for you party shills.
 
2013-06-15 11:11:37 PM

Lsherm: BullBearMS: In case you've forgotten just what Obama promised us on this...

Candidate Obama debates President Obama on Government Surveillance

What scares me is that Obama was told something AFTER he was elected that clearly changed his mind on this.  What the fark is he told every day in his security briefing?  Has to be some scary shiat.


I've said that about Obama before. There are a lot of things he's done that don't flow with what he said he believed before the first election. I think some of it has to do with "WTF" classified info that he's gotten since being in office, but crap like this and the drone killings, it's too much and far beyond what any administration should be doing.
 
2013-06-15 11:11:45 PM
I honestly don't understand how/why anyone is surprised at this....
 
2013-06-15 11:12:09 PM

cptjeff: 0x1a4: Wasting my vote is voting for either one of those assholes.

Which is why you use your vote to choose which asshole winds up on the ticket during the primary.

Engaging in the system moves the system closer to your aims, as the tea party has shown pretty damn well. Rejecting the system and going off on stupid attempts to defeat it gets you crushed by the system. But then you don't get to pretend you're superior to everybody else, so I suppose you lose on that front.


Hmm, Obama campaigned strongly against the PATRIOT act.   He lied.  I made the mistake of voting for him. He has done the exact opposite of what he promised.  So yes, I 'reject the system' of being lied to.  How is choosing to vote for people that seem to have more integrity stupid?  I don't feel superior about it, I simply no longer trust what either party says.  At all.  They have been proven to be liars.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity...
 
2013-06-15 11:13:37 PM
When did the Cell Phone Generation start giving a shiat about others being able to listen in on their "private" conversations?

/get off my lawn!
 
2013-06-15 11:13:37 PM
Why do so many people keep saying "Obama this" and "Bush that?"

This isn't partisan.  Neither party seems to really give two squirts about civil liberties.

Does it really matter which side is "more" to blame?  They're all to blame!

If politics is a horse race, the same stable owns all the horses.
 
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