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(Washington Post)   The United States puts more children and teenagers in juvenile detention than any other developed nations in the world, with about 130,000 detained in 2010. And as it turns out, this is very likely a bad idea   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 194
    More: Sad, juvenile detention, United States, developing countries  
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6428 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jun 2013 at 12:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-15 07:25:15 PM
see what absentee parenting gets us.
 
2013-06-15 09:57:02 PM

snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.


Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-15 10:02:20 PM

fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]


Got a graph with an actual incarceration rate?  I'm sure it's gone up, but a graph with the total number of prisoners doesn't mean anything since the population growth has been exponential as well.
 
2013-06-15 10:10:10 PM

Lsherm: fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]

Got a graph with an actual incarceration rate?  I'm sure it's gone up, but a graph with the total number of prisoners doesn't mean anything since the population growth has been exponential as well.


Here ya go:

upload.wikimedia.org
United States incarceration rate

More prisoners than any other country in the world, per capita AND total. USA! USA! USA!
 
2013-06-15 10:22:04 PM
I wonder if this is a result of running what should be government's job as a private for-profit.
 
2013-06-15 10:24:30 PM
FTA: "Not only does throwing a kid in detention often reduce the chance that he or she will graduate high school, but it also raises the chance that the youth will commit more crimes later on in life."

Well, our for-profit prison systems need plenty of people to lock up so they can make money, don't they? You wouldn't want some corporate executive to not get his lion's share of your tax money, would you? Think of all the people who wouldn't get a paycheck if we actually rehabilitated people instead of sending them through the revolving-door prison system.
 
2013-06-15 10:26:13 PM
Wish it showed stats of the other countries
 
2013-06-15 10:38:40 PM
Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.
 
2013-06-15 10:41:24 PM
One might almost think that there was some incentive to incarcerate folks...
 
2013-06-15 10:43:13 PM
 
2013-06-15 11:09:36 PM
lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.
 
2013-06-15 11:16:54 PM

fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]


legalize all drugs
TADA
use the tax revenue for inner city/poverty area schools and reform schools
TADA

/I can fix anything
 
2013-06-15 11:18:24 PM
Fark the bleeding hearts.  Lock them up and throw away the key!
 
2013-06-15 11:28:41 PM
 
2013-06-15 11:42:37 PM
Legalize drugs. Bring back the swift death penalty for them as deserve it. Hold prosecutors accountable to draconian standards of conduct that put their life and the well being of their family in jeopardy in the event they wrongfully convict someone. Do away with sex offender registries. Make it illegal for a traffic violation ticket to monetarily benefit the state where it was issued.
 
2013-06-15 11:54:43 PM

Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.


The good news is, once we do that, we can just find some one eyed, long haired miscreant to haul folks out when things go FUBAR. THIS is a perfect plan!
 
2013-06-15 11:54:51 PM
Good idea, bad idea, the real question is: Is it profitable?
 
2013-06-16 12:15:18 AM
That number means nothing without some percentages - what is that of our teenage population, compared to the percentage of incarcerated in other countries? The USA is big.


/plus everything else already mentioned
 
2013-06-16 12:30:07 AM
Mix our high incarceration rates with our cultural favoring of punishment over rehabilitation and you basically have a giant whirlpool pulling people back into the system till they drop dead.
 
2013-06-16 12:31:31 AM
Incarceration is big bucks.  Judges get paid to put kids away.
 
2013-06-16 12:34:25 AM
i291.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-16 12:37:04 AM
Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?
 
2013-06-16 12:37:51 AM
Hey, we need this for our economy. Gotta maintain that natural rate of unemployment to keep wages down and profits up.

Why do you people hate capitalism?
 
2013-06-16 12:37:53 AM
Gladiator School.
 
2013-06-16 12:38:16 AM

hubiestubert: Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.

The good news is, once we do that, we can just find some one eyed, long haired miscreant to haul folks out when things go FUBAR. THIS is a perfect plan!


I thought he was dead?
 
2013-06-16 12:38:55 AM
Define "bad idea". It creates a permanent underclass that cannot vote, and which is forced to do the bidding of the ruling class.

Sounds like a good idea to me!
 
2013-06-16 12:39:21 AM

Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?


Troll or idiot?
 
2013-06-16 12:39:47 AM
Let's fix it. There's a piece of legislation before Congress that should be a bipartisan measure that's going to come up for a push soon. The Youth PROMISE Act, which would invest in programs, chosen by local communities, that are proven to reduce youth violence, with the funding structured to encourage communities to take the savings from their corrections and police budgets and reinvest them in those same successful programs. Call your Representatives and ask them to support it. It saves money, is controlled at the community level, and reduces crime. Everybody wins.
 
2013-06-16 12:40:22 AM
Remove the profit motive for incarcerating people, and the rate of incarceration will go down.

Repeal ridiculous criminal and sentencing laws related to possession of marijuana, and the rate of incarceration will go down.
 
TWX
2013-06-16 12:40:25 AM

minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.


"butbut Think of teh children!!!!!1!!!one!!"

In all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment. Kids need to learn that there are consequences for their actions before those consequences become enforced by the police and the courts.
 
2013-06-16 12:41:36 AM

cptjeff: Let's fix it. There's a piece of legislation before Congress that should be a bipartisan measure that's going to come up for a push soon. The Youth PROMISE Act, which would invest in programs, chosen by local communities, that are proven to reduce youth violence, with the funding structured to encourage communities to take the savings from their corrections and police budgets and reinvest them in those same successful programs. Call your Representatives and ask them to support it. It saves money, is controlled at the community level, and reduces crime. Everybody wins.


Community organisers? Sounds like socialism.
 
2013-06-16 12:44:23 AM

Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?


Posted upthread.
 
2013-06-16 12:44:24 AM
What we should do is put kids in a barrel with a single breathing hole. When they reach adulthood put a stopper in the breathing hole.
 
2013-06-16 12:46:10 AM

cptjeff: Let's fix it. There's a piece of legislation before Congress that should be a bipartisan measure that's going to come up for a push soon. The Youth PROMISE Act, which would invest in programs, chosen by local communities, that are proven to reduce youth violence, with the funding structured to encourage communities to take the savings from their corrections and police budgets and reinvest them in those same successful programs. Call your Representatives and ask them to support it. It saves money, is controlled at the community level, and reduces crime. Everybody wins.


Except for those profiting from the current system.

Good luck with that.
 
2013-06-16 12:47:00 AM
One or two percent of humans are good-for-nothing sociopaths.
The sooner we identify them and lock them up the better for everyone.
If other nations can't afford to lock up their scumbags that is their problem, not ours.
 
2013-06-16 12:47:24 AM
I expect every one of you fark esquire types to use interrogative warez to show that you mean business.
 
2013-06-16 12:48:24 AM

minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.


Sometimes in my colder, darker moments I wonder if 5-10 lashes, Indonesian style, might not be better. Certainly would be cheaper.

I'm sure jail is a rotten place to spend time, but I bet if I hit my girlfriend a few times and then, following due process, felt the skin on my back get split open, I'd remember THAT, too, and think, Hey, I'd better not hit my girlfriend anymore.
 
2013-06-16 12:50:26 AM

give me doughnuts: Repeal ridiculous criminal and sentencing laws related to possession of marijuana, and the rate of incarceration will go down.



No state incarcerates first time marijuana users that have otherwise clean criminal histories.  At least not for any meaningful period of time.  Second convictions won't get you any real time either. If you get busted three times, well you are just a farkup and bad at making decisions.
 
2013-06-16 12:50:42 AM
Gas 'em before they get old enough to graduate to murder.

0.002% of the population cause 99% of the trouble. So why not cull them while we already have them rounded up?
 
2013-06-16 12:51:13 AM
i562.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-16 12:51:32 AM

PacManDreaming: FTA: "Not only does throwing a kid in detention often reduce the chance that he or she will graduate high school, but it also raises the chance that the youth will commit more crimes later on in life."

Well, our for-profit prison systems need plenty of people to lock up so they can make money, don't they? You wouldn't want some corporate executive to not get his lion's share of your tax money, would you? Think of all the people who wouldn't get a paycheck if we actually rehabilitated people instead of sending them through the revolving-door prison system.


It's not just the for-profit systems.

In California, it's a giant make-work program for unionized public servants.

/everybody is on the take
 
2013-06-16 12:51:46 AM

wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?


Dunno, they posted on Fark.com, its hard to tell...
 
2013-06-16 12:52:48 AM

Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?


We're still number 1.

This is part of the reason why I laugh at the people getting their panties in a twist over the NSA. We've been in a police state for longer than a lot of people on Fark have been alive, and you're worried NOW?
 
2013-06-16 12:53:19 AM

fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]


The for-profit prisons didn't come into existence until AFTER the SRA. It was the "war on drugs" and the increase in prison inmates, and the concurrent drop in state funding to state prisons and overcrowding, that led to the need for more cheaply run prisons. Which led to the profit motive, which led to the need for more prisoners...it's a cycle, not a straight-line progression.

Then there was the so-called "superpredator" theory of the late 1980's, which caused that big uptick in juvenile incarceration in the late 80's and early 90's. Under that awful theory, advanced by idiot John DiIulio, kids were becoming more amoral, criminally inclined, and violent, and needed to be treated more harshly even than adults lest they become supercriminals later in life and kill the planet. So you had cases where a 16-year old getaway driver in a botched gas station robbery got 31 years without parole because he was adjudged a "superpredator". That took a few years to settle down.

Today, of course, any time anyone suggests lighter sentences, relaxed parole, anything like that, there are people, some of them right here on Fark, who will say things like "Maybe you should let them (sex offenders, murderers, homeless) live in your house while they're being rehabilitated)" as if there was no middle ground between more enlightened penal policies and just letting killers wander the street. It's that mentality that keeps prisons getting fuller and fuller, even as there is less and less room (and less and less reason) for all those inmates.
 
2013-06-16 12:53:47 AM
So you're telling me that the nation that incarcerates more adults per capita than any other nation on earth also incarcerates more children than any other nation on earth? That makes no sense at all. I don't believe you.
 
2013-06-16 12:54:26 AM
I have an extremely effective solution.

Don't give people citizenship until they're old enough to vote and NEVER seal their records but let them file lawsuits against people who hold their childhood records against them for a maximum of one year's wages.
 
2013-06-16 12:54:44 AM

illegal.tender: Define "bad idea". It creates a permanent underclass that cannot vote, and which is forced to do the bidding of the ruling class.

Sounds like a good idea to me!


This, SO MUCH THIS. You saved me from having to type the same thing almost word for word. I'll add on that the permanent underclass is needed to maintain the explosive wealth growth of the super duper rich. And we need the rich to um... er... uh... keep all of the money safe from us riff raffs.
 
2013-06-16 12:55:04 AM
So it costs like $70-90 a day to house a non violent drug offender.  Give me a pothead or two and a cattle prod, I'll keep them under detention for the low low price of $100/day.  I can quit my job, the system saves money, everyone's a winner!

/They can keep the crackheads/heroin junkies.  Too much trouble.
//I'm kinda a pothead, but armed with a cattle prod and $$ incentive, I'll make sure their piss tests come back clean.
 
2013-06-16 12:55:48 AM
The DWI laws should be eliminated.  We already had reckless driving laws.  They shoulda just made a BAC over .08 create an a presumption of recklessness.
 
2013-06-16 12:57:23 AM
Who cares how long people have been aware of it?

 The idea is that when there is an opportunity to wake more people up to this stuff and push for changes it can only be a good thing.

Instead of patting yourself on the back for being ahead of the curve, try to get more people enlightened and outraged.
 
2013-06-16 12:57:50 AM

TheWhoppah: give me doughnuts: Repeal ridiculous criminal and sentencing laws related to possession of marijuana, and the rate of incarceration will go down.


No state incarcerates first time marijuana users that have otherwise clean criminal histories.  At least not for any meaningful period of time.  Second convictions won't get you any real time either. If you get busted three times, well you are just a farkup and bad at making decisions.


*unless you are black.
/FTFY
 
2013-06-16 12:58:14 AM

wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?


You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.
 
2013-06-16 12:58:32 AM
Well did they commit the crimes or not?
 
2013-06-16 01:00:22 AM
Missed the quote somehow.

LordJiro: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

We're still number 1.

This is part of the reason why I laugh at the people getting their panties in a twist over the NSA. We've been in a police state for longer than a lot of people on Fark have been alive, and you're worried NOW?



Who cares how long people have been aware of it?

 The idea is that when there is an opportunity to wake more people up to this stuff and push for changes it can only be a good thing.

Instead of patting yourself on the back for being ahead of the curve, try to get more people enlightened and outraged.
 
2013-06-16 01:01:13 AM
We should have a death penalty for repeat felons over age 40.  If you haven't settled down and stopped that shiat by age 40 then there is no hope for you and we are better off hanging you and harvesting your organs while the are still young enough to be donated.
 
2013-06-16 01:03:13 AM

Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.



Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.
 
2013-06-16 01:06:51 AM

SevenizGud: Gas 'em before they get old enough to graduate to murder.

0.002% of the population cause 99% of the trouble. So why not cull them while we already have them rounded up?


Yeah, but isn't gassing CEOs a bit extreme?
 
2013-06-16 01:07:14 AM
I agree, every city should follow the New Orleans model and release habitual offending teens back into the wild. There's simply not enough rape, assaults, robberies, or murders in America.

You can say it's farked up that a teen opened fire it's at a Mothers Day parade. What they dont tell you was he was a teen that got his bail reduced because he was considered low risk despite having an arms length rap sheet.
 
2013-06-16 01:07:38 AM
"Back to these young criminals - They probably were not spanked as babies, they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sequence was: for a first offence, a warning - a scolding, often without trial. After several offences a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several time before he was punished - and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation - 'paroled' in the jargon of the times.
"This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatsoever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements. Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so called 'juvinile delinquent' becomes an adult criminal and sometimes would up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder. You-"
He had singled me out again. "Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. The one day you notice the that he is a grown dog and still not housebroken - wherapon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?"
"Why... that's the craziest way to raise a dog I've ever heard of!"
"I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be?"
"Uh... why, mine, I guess."
"Again I agree. But I'm not guessing."
 
2013-06-16 01:09:05 AM

wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.


1.  Hmmm, meant to say "most developed nations."
2.  All I saw was someone's graph showing just that of the United States.  Who was it that posted the per 100,000 rates for other countries?
 
2013-06-16 01:09:47 AM

cptjeff: Let's fix it. There's a piece of legislation before Congress that should be a bipartisan measure that's going to come up for a push soon. The Youth PROMISE Act, which would invest in programs, chosen by local communities, that are proven to reduce youth violence, with the funding structured to encourage communities to take the savings from their corrections and police budgets and reinvest them in those same successful programs. Call your Representatives and ask them to support it. It saves money, is controlled at the community level, and reduces crime. Everybody wins.


It would eliminate a cheap, expendable source of labor, which is why it'll never happen.


TheWhoppah: One or two percent of humans are good-for-nothing sociopaths.
The sooner we identify them and lock them up the better for everyone.
If other nations can't afford to lock up their scumbags that is their problem, not ours.


Most of those people  have been identified.  They're the ones that win elections.
 
2013-06-16 01:10:38 AM
You have to follow the link that says US Incarceration Rates to get to a wiki page where it is compared to other countries ....
 
2013-06-16 01:11:26 AM

wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.


Forgot to mention, the graph posted was the incarceration rate for all Americans.  The farking article was about juveniles in detention.
 
2013-06-16 01:12:10 AM
Of the "Developed Nations", the U.S. is the most populous at ~316,000,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Factbook_list_of_developed_co un tries )

Its population is more than the next three developed nations combined (Japan, Germany and France) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population )

It is completely unsurprising that the US would have "more children and teenagers in juvenile detention than any other developed nations."

Nice troll article subby.

"Figures don't lie, but liars can figure." - Mark Twain
 
2013-06-16 01:14:14 AM
The use of a firearm in a crime bumps many things from misdemeanors to felonies or low-level felonies to high-level ones.
So, even with the same crime rate, the incarceration will be longer if the criminals use firearms.
Unfortunately the firearm genie is out of the bottle... the US has more guns than people.
 
2013-06-16 01:14:48 AM

TheWhoppah: You have to follow the link that says US Incarceration Rates to get to a wiki page where it is compared to other countries ....


That does not list the rate for juveniles.  But, based on a population of roughly 308,000,000 in 2010 and 130,000 youth in juvenile detention that gives a rate of 43 per 100,000.  I still ask, what is the junvenile incarceration rate for other countries?
 
2013-06-16 01:16:25 AM

glass_ibis: Of the "Developed Nations", the U.S. is the most populous at ~316,000,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Factbook_list_of_developed_co un tries )

Its population is more than the next three developed nations combined (Japan, Germany and France) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population )

It is completely unsurprising that the US would have "more children and teenagers in juvenile detention than any other developed nations."

Nice troll article subby.

"Figures don't lie, but liars can figure." - Mark Twain


Well now, turns out I was correct when I accidentally said that the U.S. has more people than all other developed nations.  Nice to know.
 
2013-06-16 01:16:37 AM

fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]


Your tears sustain me, and yield dividends in my portfolio..

fark, yeah.
 
2013-06-16 01:16:52 AM

Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.

Forgot to mention, the graph posted was the incarceration rate for all Americans.  The farking article was about juveniles in detention.


Well a quick search got me an NPR article with this graph comparing youth incarceration rates of several developed nations.

www.npr.org
 
2013-06-16 01:16:57 AM
www.wired.com
 
2013-06-16 01:19:31 AM
It's as if one could just enter a Google search and find some obscure location that has a list of these things or something, possibly containing citations for further research.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_ of_countries_by_incarceration_ra te
 
2013-06-16 01:20:49 AM

Gyrfalcon: fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]

The for-profit prisons didn't come into existence until AFTER the SRA. It was the "war on drugs" and the increase in prison inmates, and the concurrent drop in state funding to state prisons and overcrowding, that led to the need for more cheaply run prisons. Which led to the profit motive, which led to the need for more prisoners...it's a cycle, not a straight-line progression.

Then there was the so-called "superpredator" theory of the late 1980's, which caused that big uptick in juvenile incarceration in the late 80's and early 90's. Under that awful theory, advanced by idiot John DiIulio, kids were becoming more amoral, criminally inclined, and violent, and needed to be treated more harshly even than adults lest they become supercriminals later in life and kill the planet. So you had cases where a 16-year old getaway driver in a botched gas station robbery got 31 years without parole because he was adjudged a "superpredator". That took a few years to settle down.

Today, of course, any time anyone suggests lighter sentences, relaxed parole, anything like that, there are people, some of them right here on Fark, who will say things like "Maybe you should let them (sex offenders, murderers, homeless) live in your house while they're being rehabilitated)" as if there was no middle ground between more enlightened penal policies and just letting killers wander the street. It's that mentality that keeps prisons getting fuller and fuller, even as there is less and less room (and less and less reason) for all those inmates.


And in the meantime, we treat education equally as a commodity, and our states and the Fed to flush dollars into a testing industry, that does little to actually insure education, while forcing a great many schools to come to terms with flushing or excusing some kids, so that they don't lose their funding, and likewise, those kids who get flushed or pushed aside, then feed the prison industry.

Overall, it's nice work if you can get it...
 
2013-06-16 01:21:03 AM

wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.

Forgot to mention, the graph posted was the incarceration rate for all Americans.  The farking article was about juveniles in detention.

Well a quick search got me an NPR article with this graph comparing youth incarceration rates of several developed nations.

[www.npr.org image 624x337]


Thank you.  Also, I misread the article, took the 130,000 for 2010 to be the total number.  D'oh!  This is what happens when you post while drinking and past your normal bed time.
 
2013-06-16 01:22:26 AM
Just because you are not incarcerated doesn't mean you shouldn't be.
 
2013-06-16 01:26:27 AM

Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.

Forgot to mention, the graph posted was the incarceration rate for all Americans.  The farking article was about juveniles in detention.

Well a quick search got me an NPR article with this graph comparing youth incarceration rates of several developed nations.

[www.npr.org image 624x337]

Thank you.  Also, I misread the article, took the 130,000 for 2010 to be the total number.  D'oh!  This is what happens when you post while drinking and past your normal bed time.


I could say the same about drinking and posting. I figured countries like China and India were considered developed nations but apparently they aren't.
 
2013-06-16 01:26:40 AM

TheWhoppah: One or two percent of humans are good-for-nothing sociopaths.
The sooner we identify them and lock them up the better for everyone.
If other nations can't afford to lock up their scumbags that is their problem, not ours.

Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.

1.  Hmmm, meant to say "most developed nations."
2.  All I saw was someone's graph showing just that of the United States.  Who was it that posted the per 100,000 rates for other countries?


I think you missed the entire point.. even within the US the incarceration rates among juvies have gone up exponentially in the past 2 or 3 decades.
Now either kids in the US have gotten really violent all of a sudden or cops suddenly become more proactive in throwing people into prison compared to their peers before them. Since neither is probably true there is a 3rd possibility and that is our entire criminal/judicial system that is responsible for this exponential hike.
The system itself is not about rehabilitation nor is it about corrections. It is all about making money even if it means beings counterproductive to the very reasons behind putting someone behind bars in the first place.
 
2013-06-16 01:26:59 AM

TheWhoppah: Just because you are not incarcerated doesn't mean you shouldn't be.


"Now who can argue with that? I think we're all indebted to Gabby Johnson for clearly stating what needed to be said. I'm particulary glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age."
 
2013-06-16 01:36:38 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-16 01:40:14 AM
Is there any way that we can make prisons unprofitable?  That might fix the problem.
 
2013-06-16 01:43:13 AM

SuperNinjaToad: The system itself is not about rehabilitation nor is it about corrections



Why should it be?  Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe.  Who cares about the offenders.  fark them.  They suck.
 
2013-06-16 01:44:39 AM

SuperNinjaToad: I think you missed the entire point.. even within the US the incarceration rates among juvies have gone up exponentially in the past 2 or 3 decades.
Now either kids in the US have gotten really violent all of a sudden or cops suddenly become more proactive in throwing people into prison compared to their peers before them. Since neither is probably true there is a 3rd possibility and that is our entire criminal/judicial system that is responsible for this exponential hike


It might have something to do with this statistic (from www.cdc.gov, 2008 data):

i260.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-16 01:45:01 AM
If you mess up, at all, the man gonna just put you in a toilet and feed you gruel and cruelty cause that moves money around for the man's cronies.  And unless yo daddy fat ass rich, you do not.  Careful, nah, or the man gitcha.
 
m00
2013-06-16 01:49:20 AM

Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.


Why don't we just use one of the many US's military-owed islands. We can even let the rich hunt "the deadliest game."
 
2013-06-16 01:52:47 AM

Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.



Libertarian paradise?
 
2013-06-16 01:53:25 AM
Half the male prison population is black.  I haven't bothered to look at the racial make up of the female prison population.  Most of these black males are raised by single females.  Actually, if you look at the racial make up of the US prison the only real disparity in races are blacks.  So is the entire world a bunch of racist or are black mommas the cause of their son's whoa's.

Stay tuned as mikewadestr will once again serve a suspension for racists comments.
 
2013-06-16 01:54:26 AM
Laws are the greatest cause of crime.
 
2013-06-16 01:55:17 AM

Mock26: TheWhoppah: You have to follow the link that says US Incarceration Rates to get to a wiki page where it is compared to other countries ....

That does not list the rate for juveniles.  But, based on a population of roughly 308,000,000 in 2010 and 130,000 youth in juvenile detention that gives a rate of 43 per 100,000.  I still ask, what is the junvenile incarceration rate for other countries?


When talking about juveniles, why does the rate per 100,000 matter exactly? Yes, I understand your argument that more people = more people in prison and that absolute numbers is unfair when comparing, say, Germany to the US. But when talking about kids under 18--and especially when talking about kids under 15--why should you imagine that saying "Yes, but we have so many more people than Germany smaller population so the comparison doesn't count."?

So Germany has a population of 10,000,000 (let's pretend) and they incarcerate 15 juveniles per 100,000, giving them a total of 1500 juveniles incarcerated annually. The US, by your estimate, has a rate of 43 per 100,000 or 130,000 annually, which is probably roughly equivalent. Why would that make ANY difference when the population you're talking about is JUVENILES?

If the rate was half that, or a tenth of that, that would be TOO MANY kids being incarcerated annually, and TOO MANY kids spending some or all of their time being turned into future adult felons. That's why these comparisons with "other industrialized nations" are b/s, imo. Who cares what other countries are doing, or what their "rates" are? Putting children in prison at ANY rate means that a society has failed miserably, and any rate higher than zero should be a source of national shame.
 
2013-06-16 01:55:31 AM

prjindigo: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

Dunno, they posted on Fark.com, its hard to tell...


US is first in per capita, more than twice the number of the next first world nation.  Kind of like how the US is first in teen pregnancy almost twice as much as number 2 UK.
 
2013-06-16 01:55:34 AM

doglover: Legalize drugs. Bring back the swift death penalty for them as deserve it. Hold prosecutors accountable to draconian standards of conduct that put their life and the well being of their family in jeopardy in the event they wrongfully convict someone. Do away with sex offender registries. Make it illegal for a traffic violation ticket to monetarily benefit the state where it was issued.


Barely anyone gets pulled over here and everyone drives like a dick, or they're half asleep

TheWhoppah: SuperNinjaToad: The system itself is not about rehabilitation nor is it about corrections


Why should it be?  Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe.  Who cares about the offenders.  fark them.  They suck.


So... life sentence for jaywalking? I care about the offenders when laws are dumb, education sucks, there's a national hatred of knowledge, and selling illegal drugs is a well-paying, easy job to get.
 
2013-06-16 01:57:53 AM
Since many detention centers & prisons are contracted out and are for-profit, it might be that many crooked judges get a little cut of the action the more kids they send away.
 
2013-06-16 01:59:12 AM

TheWhoppah: One or two percent of humans are good-for-nothing sociopaths.
The sooner we identify them and lock them up the better for everyone.
If other nations can't afford to lock up their scumbags that is their problem, not ours.


Actually, statistically speaking, it's about 4% of the population. (Source: The Sociopath Next Door, Martha Stout PhD)
 
2013-06-16 02:01:22 AM

mikewadestr: Half the male prison population is black.  I haven't bothered to look at the racial make up of the female prison population.  Most of these black males are raised by single females.  Actually, if you look at the racial make up of the US prison the only real disparity in races are blacks.  So is the entire world a bunch of racist or are black mommas the cause of their son's whoa's.

Stay tuned as mikewadestr will once again serve a suspension for racists comments.


It's a hell of a lot easier to avoid jail time for smoking weed in the suburbs than it is in the ghettos.
 
PKY
2013-06-16 02:02:28 AM
Higher number of unsuitable parents having kids earlier + more widespread gangster culture + tougher laws = higher numbers.
 
2013-06-16 02:03:56 AM

ObeliskToucher: SuperNinjaToad: I think you missed the entire point.. even within the US the incarceration rates among juvies have gone up exponentially in the past 2 or 3 decades.
Now either kids in the US have gotten really violent all of a sudden or cops suddenly become more proactive in throwing people into prison compared to their peers before them. Since neither is probably true there is a 3rd possibility and that is our entire criminal/judicial system that is responsible for this exponential hike

It might have something to do with this statistic (from www.cdc.gov, 2008 data):

[i260.photobucket.com image 626x695]


WTF is going on in Bulgaria?!?
 
2013-06-16 02:04:14 AM
Given that we have quite a few bullshiat laws that only apply to people under 18 that other countries don't, this is no surprise.  Add into that the kangaroo court that is the juvenile court and no one should be surprised a lot of people under 18 are incarcerated.
 
2013-06-16 02:04:58 AM

mikewadestr: Half the male prison population is black.  I haven't bothered to look at the racial make up of the female prison population.  Most of these black males are raised by single females.  Actually, if you look at the racial make up of the US prison the only real disparity in races are blacks.  So is the entire world a bunch of racist or are black mommas the cause of their son's whoa's.

Stay tuned as mikewadestr will once again serve a suspension for racists comments.


No, black people are mostly poor and tribal. You're looking at it wrong. Don't look at the tribe, look at the people.

Pretend it's "people who listen to rap." Why do rap fans make up the majority of the prison population? It must be the music, right? No, that's ridiculous. Music doesn't make you sell crack. Desperation does, and that stems from poverty.

http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics- on -freedom/statistics-on-prisoner-population-rates/#8

28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that - 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000.
 
2013-06-16 02:07:07 AM

12349876: mikewadestr: Half the male prison population is black.  I haven't bothered to look at the racial make up of the female prison population.  Most of these black males are raised by single females.  Actually, if you look at the racial make up of the US prison the only real disparity in races are blacks.  So is the entire world a bunch of racist or are black mommas the cause of their son's whoa's.

Stay tuned as mikewadestr will once again serve a suspension for racists comments.

It's a hell of a lot easier to avoid jail time for smoking weed in the suburbs than it is in the ghettos.



Did you intend to say that it is easier to avoid jail time for weed if you don't already have a criminal record?  Nobody spends any significant time in jail for JUST a personal stash of weed.
 
2013-06-16 02:09:09 AM

moothemagiccow: 28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that - 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000.



In other words, people who make poor decisions may end up in prison.  Wow.  What a shock!
 
2013-06-16 02:10:04 AM

TheWhoppah: moothemagiccow: 28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that - 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000.


In other words, people who make poor decisions may end up in prison.  Wow.  What a shock!


Not if they can afford a good lawyer
 
2013-06-16 02:12:37 AM

TheWhoppah: moothemagiccow: 28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that - 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000.


In other words, people who make poor decisions may end up in prison.  Wow.  What a shock!


(nobody's paying any attention to you. You can leave now)
 
2013-06-16 02:14:22 AM
Slave labor.  It's what's for dinner.
 
2013-06-16 02:15:06 AM

wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people and they they incarcerate 1,000 people.  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Well,

1. The U.S. is not the most populated developed country by a long shot.

2. Someone upthread already posted incarceration rates but you ignored it or didn't understand.

Forgot to mention, the graph posted was the incarceration rate for all Americans.  The farking article was about juveniles in detention.

Well a quick search got me an NPR article with this graph comparing youth incarceration rates of several developed nations.

[www.npr.org image 624x337]


Wikipedia has a nifty map.

upload.wikimedia.org
Suck it, China!
 
2013-06-16 02:15:56 AM
Oops, I mean: Suck it, Russia!
 
2013-06-16 02:17:04 AM
www.ronunz.org
might skew the results a bit
 
2013-06-16 02:20:02 AM
farm6.static.flickr.com
 
2013-06-16 02:21:51 AM

TWX: minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.

"butbut Think of teh children!!!!!1!!!one!!"

In all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment. Kids need to learn that there are consequences for their actions before those consequences become enforced by the police and the courts.


correct, children do need to learn to think of the consequences for their actions. then compare this good common logic with how government has steered public schools in many areas: boo-boo proof playgrounds, trophies for mere participation, no child left behind, zero tolerance policies, classrooms of mixed mash-up best students, average, deficient, disabled and special needs; the disappearance of history books and teacher performance evaluations based on text books that have not yet been made available to the students. then notice an incredible amount of suicides in the armed forces. we already have a forced downfall of decades of young people and it isn't getting better.

pair this with sperm donor daddies having 12 children by five women and not having to support or be a father to any of them, a minority where most males will not live to see there 22nd birthday or will be in prison and the portion of the population that finds more love in joining a hoodlum thug gang than they ever got at home.

our government doesn't give a gottdamm about the masses. in fact it appears quite the opposite; the middle class is getting poorer and the poor are being killed or living in prisons. the sooner we have a french fry revolution the better.
 
2013-06-16 02:22:54 AM

Gyrfalcon: ObeliskToucher: SuperNinjaToad: I think you missed the entire point.. even within the US the incarceration rates among juvies have gone up exponentially in the past 2 or 3 decades.
Now either kids in the US have gotten really violent all of a sudden or cops suddenly become more proactive in throwing people into prison compared to their peers before them. Since neither is probably true there is a 3rd possibility and that is our entire criminal/judicial system that is responsible for this exponential hike

It might have something to do with this statistic (from www.cdc.gov, 2008 data):

[i260.photobucket.com image 626x695]

WTF is going on in Bulgaria?!?


Chicks with easy virtue...
 
2013-06-16 02:23:42 AM

TheWhoppah: SuperNinjaToad: The system itself is not about rehabilitation nor is it about corrections


Why should it be?  Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe.  Who cares about the offenders.  fark them.  They suck.


Justice is about balance of redress, through reason and taking matters to an impartial party, out of the dispute, and then allowing the rule of law, not the rule of revenge and who happens to have the biggest sword or supply of guns handy, because that is sort of what laws were created to avoid, that is massive feuds between clans and families. See, we've tried the "revenge" model already. It has some appeal, but in areas where lines are a bit more gray and subjective prejudice often gets in the way, you kind of want a third party, one who is supposed to be impartial to preside over such things. Which is why, when their is collusion within a court between one side and a judge, things get snippy somewhat quickly.

We have set up a justice system that is supposed to be NOT about revenge. It often has fallen into such a mode, and with the hearty congratulations by a citizenry who is often fickle and bloodthirsty, but we usually look upon such events with some trepidation, because we KNOW the fallout of such things is rarely all that good. The trial of Sacco and Vanzetti as a for instance, or the execution of Joel Emmanuel Hägglund--Joe Hill. There are a LOT of others as well. And oddly enough, a lot of folks said, "If'n they's being put on trial, they musta done somethin'" and that isn't exactly justice. Even AFTER conviction, it has been proven, again and again, that sometimes, those convictions were obtained by some fairly shady means, and that cases can be overturned, when new evidence comes to light, or evidence of collusion and malfeasance on the part of prosecutors or even the judge in question, that is one of the strengths of our justice system. There are certainly holes within it--but mechanisms for appeal are built in to address a few of them, and they are far from perfect, but justice isn't about "fark 'em!" it's about balance and redress and reasoned measures. Otherwise, it devolves into the sort of mob justice that cost a lot of folks with unpopular opinions and associations not just their freedom, but their lives.

Something, something..those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. What is often eye wrenchingly frustrating, is watching folks who scream about the flag, the Founders, and our traditions of liberty, are often the first to suggest denying such things to those that they don't like, at this moment.

Then again, these are folks who scream about brown people misusing the flag, while they strut in their own flagwear, so perhaps deeper thought processes don't exactly resonate within that crowd. And that is really the issue with justice, is that it ISN'T to appease the crowd, but bring a fair and accurate judgment--and that is what the appeal process is for, to determine IF said decision was accurate and fair, and judgments are overturned, cases are returned, and folks set free often enough, that simply going to court ISN'T exactly synonymous with guilt, and all to often, we have folks who simply assume that being arrested IS proof of guilt. Which sort of subverts the whole justice system in this country, but as I said before, Americans have long distrusted those who think too much...
 
2013-06-16 02:25:10 AM

cptjeff: Call your Representatives and ask them to support it.


The same ones we recently trusted?
 
2013-06-16 02:27:35 AM

Gyrfalcon: TheWhoppah: moothemagiccow: 28% of state and federal prisoners were unemployed in the month before their arrest. The national unemployment rate at the time was 5.5%. So the inmate rate was six times the national average.88% of state prisoners and 80% of federal prisoners had a high school education or less. The national average for adults (over 18 years of age) was half that - 48%. Inmates are twice the national average.70% of state and 58% of federal prisoners had an income of less than $2000 in the month prior to arrest. That means they had an annual income of less than $24000.


In other words, people who make poor decisions may end up in prison.  Wow.  What a shock!

(nobody's paying any attention to you. You can leave now)


Oh, I threw him a bone, because he looks so darned cute as he struggles to find a line of argumentation. It's like he thinks he's people...
 
2013-06-16 02:29:01 AM

Gyrfalcon: Mock26: TheWhoppah: You have to follow the link that says US Incarceration Rates to get to a wiki page where it is compared to other countries ....

That does not list the rate for juveniles.  But, based on a population of roughly 308,000,000 in 2010 and 130,000 youth in juvenile detention that gives a rate of 43 per 100,000.  I still ask, what is the junvenile incarceration rate for other countries?

When talking about juveniles, why does the rate per 100,000 matter exactly? Yes, I understand your argument that more people = more people in prison and that absolute numbers is unfair when comparing, say, Germany to the US. But when talking about kids under 18--and especially when talking about kids under 15--why should you imagine that saying "Yes, but we have so many more people than Germany smaller population so the comparison doesn't count."?

So Germany has a population of 10,000,000 (let's pretend) and they incarcerate 15 juveniles per 100,000, giving them a total of 1500 juveniles incarcerated annually. The US, by your estimate, has a rate of 43 per 100,000 or 130,000 annually, which is probably roughly equivalent. Why would that make ANY difference when the population you're talking about is JUVENILES?

If the rate was half that, or a tenth of that, that would be TOO MANY kids being incarcerated annually, and TOO MANY kids spending some or all of their time being turned into future adult felons. That's why these comparisons with "other industrialized nations" are b/s, imo. Who cares what other countries are doing, or what their "rates" are? Putting children in prison at ANY rate means that a society has failed miserably, and any rate higher than zero should be a source of national shame.


For the sake of the truth.  A number of years ago some reporter with the Chicago sun times wrote an op ed piece on cocaine use between blacks and whites.  I forget the exact numbers but it was something 100 out of every 1,000 white males used cocaine and 75 out of every 200 black males used cocaine (I do not remember the exact numbers and am just making these to use as an example) and she concluded that more white men used cocaine than black men.  If she had bothered to look at the numbers and calculate the per 100 she would have seen that her conclusion was wrong.  And I have seen similar mistakes more than a few times on the interent. And while I do agree with you that even if we were number 2 or number 3 or whatever that it would still be too high I would want the article to reflect that.  That was why I was questioning whether or not we did in fact have the highest rate.
 
2013-06-16 02:29:01 AM

TheWhoppah: Why should it be? Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe. Who cares about the offenders. fark them. They suck.


Justice is never about revenge. Either you have justice or you have revenge. You can not have both. And given how many people are incarcerated for crimes that harmed no one, we're not exactly keeping people safe much either. As for the offenders, if we don't care about them, there is little chance of them improving their lives so they don't reoffend. Of course if we took care of people in the first place, we'd find ourselves with a lot fewer offenders. Also if we didn't let some people off the hook for huge offenses while people with trivial offenses get long terms, that would help. No faster way to screw things up than for people to see they're on the wrong end of things from the get go, or rather perceive they are.
 
2013-06-16 02:29:28 AM
This is a story as old as the hills.  Incarcerate people by force and put them to work.  In old olden times it was warring nations/factions/tribes.  Dehumanize the enemy and work them as animals. No need for further justification.  These days it'd be tough to make a case for the strongest being able to do whatever the fark they want.  Solution?  Make endless, mostly arbitrary, laws that the majority of the population either agree with or over which see no need to start a revolution.  Get busted for marijuana three times and spend the rest of your days in prison.  Working at taxpayer expense.  That's a good racket.  If we didn't live month to month, hand to mouth we might be up in arms and doing something about it.

/unsustainable situation is unsustainable
 
2013-06-16 02:29:56 AM
s3.amazonaws.com
 
2013-06-16 02:32:43 AM

mr lawson: [www.ronunz.org image 459x252]
might skew the results a bit


So, if we went back to black people only being 3/5ths of a person will that take us out of first place?

:-D
 
2013-06-16 02:38:00 AM

Mock26: So, if we went back to black people only being 3/5ths of a person will that take us out of first place?

:-D


actually, if Normalised....no.
/maybe 1/8th would work
 
2013-06-16 02:38:16 AM

WhyteRaven74: TheWhoppah: Why should it be? Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe. Who cares about the offenders. fark them. They suck.

Justice is never about revenge. Either you have justice or you have revenge. You can not have both. And given how many people are incarcerated for crimes that harmed no one, we're not exactly keeping people safe much either. As for the offenders, if we don't care about them, there is little chance of them improving their lives so they don't reoffend. Of course if we took care of people in the first place, we'd find ourselves with a lot fewer offenders. Also if we didn't let some people off the hook for huge offenses while people with trivial offenses get long terms, that would help. No faster way to screw things up than for people to see they're on the wrong end of things from the get go, or rather perceive they are.



Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge.  The justice system is an attempt to create a fair system with professional disinterested accuracy but, at its core, it always has been and always will be about revenge.  Have you ever watched toddlers.  They understand revenge.  It is a basic part of our animal psyche and the right to seek revenge for wrongdoings is a fundamental human right.  Keeping revenge quarrels from plunging the tribe into chaos is one of the most basic functions of government.  It is one of the reasons the tribe chooses a chief.
 
2013-06-16 02:43:19 AM

TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge


Revenge fixes nothing. Revenge is based on the idea a present action can undo a past action. Which it clearly can not. Or that having committed some wrong a person is deserving of an equal or worse wrong. Justice does not work that way.
 
2013-06-16 02:54:07 AM

TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge.  The justice system is an attempt to create a fair system with professional disinterested accuracy but, at its core, it always has been and always will be about revenge.  Have you ever watched toddlers.  They understand revenge.  It is a basic part of our animal psyche and the right to seek revenge for wrongdoings is a fundamental human right.  Keeping revenge quarrels from plunging the tribe into chaos is one of the most basic functions of government.  It is one of the reasons the tribe chooses a chief.


So, the Enlightenment, the march of progress, the foundations of civilization, those are just kerfuffles, and truly, we should just arm ourselves and grab pitchforks and hanging ropes when we get antsy about our neighbor?

Oh wait. We DID choose a chief. We chose a whole system of governance to PREVENT revenge, and instead we look to redress wrongs done to society and to persons through reason. But that's too boring for a keen legal mind such your own, yes?

lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-16 02:55:52 AM
Yeah, we should just be giving them all reality shows like Teen Mom people all of them turned out so well adjusted
 
2013-06-16 02:58:47 AM

hubiestubert: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge.  The justice system is an attempt to create a fair system with professional disinterested accuracy but, at its core, it always has been and always will be about revenge.  Have you ever watched toddlers.  They understand revenge.  It is a basic part of our animal psyche and the right to seek revenge for wrongdoings is a fundamental human right.  Keeping revenge quarrels from plunging the tribe into chaos is one of the most basic functions of government.  It is one of the reasons the tribe chooses a chief.

So, the Enlightenment, the march of progress, the foundations of civilization, those are just kerfuffles, and truly, we should just arm ourselves and grab pitchforks and hanging ropes when we get antsy about our neighbor?

Oh wait. We DID choose a chief. We chose a whole system of governance to PREVENT revenge, and instead we look to redress wrongs done to society and to persons through reason. But that's too boring for a keen legal mind such your own, yes?

[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]


Revenge.  Redress wrongs.  It is all 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
 
2013-06-16 03:06:15 AM

Mock26: Revenge.  Redress wrongs.  It is all 6 of one, half dozen of the other.


Truly. Our Beamish Boy truly is a wizard with the foundations of law. Comforting, that.

lh3.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-16 03:12:19 AM
We'll just have to get tougher if getting tough is not working because we have to be tough on crime.

/Yo dawg, I heard you like to get tough . . .
 
2013-06-16 03:21:44 AM
hubiestubert: We chose a whole system of governance to PREVENT revenge, and instead we look to redress wrongs done to society and to persons throullugh reason


Bullshiat.  We used reason to recognize that amateur pitchfork-based revenge is message and prone to errors that results in the need for more revenge.  Government provides professional grade revenge with investigators that, in theory, care more about identifying the culprit than which ox was gored... with judges that care more about fairly applying the laws than who has a dog was in the fight... with wardens more concerned about preventing prisoner abuse and riots than selling indulgences.  Yes our system has a nice veneer of reason and civility but justice is primarily about revenge.  You are fooling yourself to insist otherwise.
 
2013-06-16 03:22:51 AM
 
2013-06-16 03:26:43 AM

WhyteRaven74: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge

Revenge fixes nothing. Revenge is based on the idea a present action can undo a past action. Which it clearly can not. Or that having committed some wrong a person is deserving of an equal or worse wrong. Justice does not work that way.



Thanks for your input Ghandi.  Now run along back to Utopia and smoke a bong with Jesus.  Like it or not, the human sense of justice is based squarely on revenge.  You can see it in a group of toddlers... as soon as they can walk they begin dishing out their own revenge-based justice.
 
2013-06-16 03:49:56 AM

Wolf892: What we should do is put kids in a barrel with a single breathing hole. When they reach adulthood put a stopper in the breathing hole.


Heinlien quote??
 
2013-06-16 03:54:40 AM
The whole concept of punishment-based incarceration doesn't make any sense. Like, hey you're wicked farked up and did farked up stuff so we're going to put you in the most farked up environment we have for a long time. Then we'll release you into society again even more farked up than you were when you went in with the expectation you won't do more farked up shiat. Great system. That's totes safer than addressing the circumstances that actually cause people to commit crime. Just take people with no jobs and bad histories and give them criminal connections and psychological scarring and then release them onto us again. Thanks guys.
 
PKY
2013-06-16 04:05:02 AM
Some of them are just bad apples. You can pick them out before they start first grade and nothing can fix them. No one needs to kill or rob for food in the industrial world. That lifestyle is something you chose. You can go home to a warm bed, eat yourself fat, use your cell phone to call or chat with friends on social media, play some video games and then catch a game or a movie on your 50-inch flat screen TV. Somehow most unemployed manage to avoid turning into violent criminals.
 
2013-06-16 04:05:03 AM

TheWhoppah: One or two percent of humans are good-for-nothing sociopaths.
The sooner we identify them and lock them up the better for everyone.
If other nations can't afford to lock up their scumbags that is their problem, not ours.


Conservative "Leadership". TADA. What do I win?
 
2013-06-16 04:08:39 AM

PKY: Some of them are just bad apples. You can pick them out before they start first grade and nothing can fix them. No one needs to kill or rob for food in the industrial world. That lifestyle is something you chose. You can go home to a warm bed, eat yourself fat, use your cell phone to call or chat with friends on social media, play some video games and then catch a game or a movie on your 50-inch flat screen TV. Somehow most unemployed manage to avoid turning into violent criminals.


You sound fat white.
 
2013-06-16 04:13:06 AM
Whats the crime rate in those countries where they cut off your hand for theft and your head for murder, probably pretty low. Lets try that for awhile. =))
 
PKY
2013-06-16 04:18:59 AM

sobriquet by any other name: PKY: Some of them are just bad apples. You can pick them out before they start first grade and nothing can fix them. No one needs to kill or rob for food in the industrial world. That lifestyle is something you chose. You can go home to a warm bed, eat yourself fat, use your cell phone to call or chat with friends on social media, play some video games and then catch a game or a movie on your 50-inch flat screen TV. Somehow most unemployed manage to avoid turning into violent criminals.

You sound fat white.


Well, there are places on this planet where the people are starving, then there's places where the worst thing is that you can afford to eat too much fast food.
 
2013-06-16 04:23:29 AM

TheWhoppah: WhyteRaven74: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge

Revenge fixes nothing. Revenge is based on the idea a present action can undo a past action. Which it clearly can not. Or that having committed some wrong a person is deserving of an equal or worse wrong. Justice does not work that way.


Thanks for your input Ghandi.  Now run along back to Utopia and smoke a bong with Jesus.  Like it or not, the human sense of justice is based squarely on revenge.  You can see it in a group of toddlers... as soon as they can walk they begin dishing out their own revenge-based justice.


Truly, we should model more of our society on the behavior of toddlers.  The first thing is we should settle all arguments by falling onto the floor wailing and crying.  It'll be an easy transition for the politics tab.
 
2013-06-16 04:43:41 AM

WhyteRaven74: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge

Revenge fixes nothing. Revenge is based on the idea a present action can undo a past action. Which it clearly can not. Or that having committed some wrong a person is deserving of an equal or worse wrong. Justice does not work that way.


No, revenge is NOT based on the idea that a present action can undo a past action.  It is about making someone pay for their actions.  Huge world of difference there.

As for justice, it actually can work that way.  Believe it or not but the definition of justice is more than a bit subjective.
 
2013-06-16 04:47:54 AM

Foxxinnia: The whole concept of punishment-based incarceration doesn't make any sense. Like, hey you're wicked farked up and did farked up stuff so we're going to put you in the most farked up environment we have for a long time. Then we'll release you into society again even more farked up than you were when you went in with the expectation you won't do more farked up shiat. Great system. That's totes safer than addressing the circumstances that actually cause people to commit crime. Just take people with no jobs and bad histories and give them criminal connections and psychological scarring and then release them onto us again. Thanks guys.


OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?
 
2013-06-16 04:49:44 AM

PKY: sobriquet by any other name: PKY: Some of them are just bad apples. You can pick them out before they start first grade and nothing can fix them. No one needs to kill or rob for food in the industrial world. That lifestyle is something you chose. You can go home to a warm bed, eat yourself fat, use your cell phone to call or chat with friends on social media, play some video games and then catch a game or a movie on your 50-inch flat screen TV. Somehow most unemployed manage to avoid turning into violent criminals.

You sound fat white.

Well, there are places on this planet where the people are starving, then there's places where the worst thing is that you can afford to eat too much fast food.


Well, there are places in America where people are starving.
 
2013-06-16 05:16:06 AM

Mock26: Foxxinnia: The whole concept of punishment-based incarceration doesn't make any sense. Like, hey you're wicked farked up and did farked up stuff so we're going to put you in the most farked up environment we have for a long time. Then we'll release you into society again even more farked up than you were when you went in with the expectation you won't do more farked up shiat. Great system. That's totes safer than addressing the circumstances that actually cause people to commit crime. Just take people with no jobs and bad histories and give them criminal connections and psychological scarring and then release them onto us again. Thanks guys.

OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?


Well it's hardly an Einstein-level conundrum. Rehabilitative practices for criminals have been in development for decades and are being used around the world and increasingly in the United States. Not every single practice works obviously, but it's not too difficult to weed out best practices to develop methods that reduce recidivism and decrease costs in comparison to the current system.
 
2013-06-16 05:26:31 AM

fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]


Odd.... And yet here I am not in prison.  Maybe it has to do with me not committing felonies and misdemeanors.
 
2013-06-16 05:27:27 AM

Nutsac_Jim: fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]

Odd.... And yet here I am not in prison.  Maybe it has to do with me not committing felonies and misdemeanors.


Or.. as the convicts would say, "they just havent caught you yet, because everyone is guilty."
 
2013-06-16 05:31:05 AM

doglover: Legalize drugs. Bring back the swift death penalty for them as deserve it. Hold prosecutors accountable to draconian standards of conduct that put their life and the well being of their family in jeopardy in the event they wrongfully convict someone. Do away with sex offender registries. Make it illegal for a traffic violation ticket to monetarily benefit the state where it was issued.


Or we could just start giving the death penalty to drug users.  Sure, it will be expensive at first, but soon, the price of bullets will go down as there is more supply.
 
2013-06-16 05:33:00 AM

Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?


The US has a lot more black people than those other countries too.  Does France have a Detroit?
 
2013-06-16 05:38:05 AM

Gyrfalcon: Today, of course, any time anyone suggests lighter sentences, relaxed parole, anything like that, there are people, some of them right here on Fark, who will say things like "Maybe you should let them (sex offenders, murderers, homeless) live in your house while they're being rehabilitated)" as if there was no middle ground between more enlightened penal policies and just letting killers wander the street.


Well.. the middle ground IS them living in your house, my man.  In jail or wander the streets at the poles... the middle ground is staying at bleeding heat liberal homes.
 
2013-06-16 05:39:24 AM

Mock26: Foxxinnia: The whole concept of punishment-based incarceration doesn't make any sense. Like, hey you're wicked farked up and did farked up stuff so we're going to put you in the most farked up environment we have for a long time. Then we'll release you into society again even more farked up than you were when you went in with the expectation you won't do more farked up shiat. Great system. That's totes safer than addressing the circumstances that actually cause people to commit crime. Just take people with no jobs and bad histories and give them criminal connections and psychological scarring and then release them onto us again. Thanks guys.

OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?


No, but there IS a middle ground, despite the current desire that it be either/or. It should ideally be and/or. Or, well, something like this: Punish the wrongdoer, AND acknowledge the circumstances that made him the way he is AND take steps so that others in similar conditions don't become murderers farther down the line, WHILE STILL punishing the current wrongdoer. We're getting a little better than we used to be.

Used to be criminal justice was: 1. Punish the wrongdoer. Now, it's more or less 1. Punish the wrongdoer and 2. Acknowledge that circumstances contributed to making him a wrongdoer. We're lurching towards 1. Punish, 2. Acknowledge, 3. Use what we've learned to Prevent Future Wrongdoers; but for a variety of reasons (some logistical, some craven, some just stupid) we can't seem to complete the sequence. Your statement, although well-meaning, is proof of that, as is Foxxinnia's post. Foxxinnia is starting at the mid-point of the ENTIRE process; you are starting at the end-point of ONE person's process. But it's a system that has no real beginning and no real end.

So imagine if you will the actual process: Chester the Molester molests a kid and is arrested, tried, and convicted. As Chester is examined for his trial, we learn he was himself molested as a child: Data point #1, molesters are often molested as children. We learn he was raised by a single mom, and bullied in school: Data point #2 & 3: bullied kids with absent parents often act out later on. Does this let Chester off the hook? No, because we also learn he's a serial recidivist and multiple parole violations. Data point #4: molesters are very hard to treat without close active supervision. So Chester goes off to prison for the good of society, and possibly himself. BUT. We take all those data points and we look to his victim. Victor the Victim already meets one data point: He's been molested. A little research and we find that Victor's mom divorced his dad five years ago; we also learn that Victor is kind of a wuss who's been picked on a lot at school, which is why he was such an easy target for Chester. (Data points 2 & 3) So now we can APPLY what we learned from Chester, give Victor the close supervision and support Chester didn't get, and prevent him from becoming the molester Chester grew up to become.

We don't wait till after Victor becomes a criminal to "ask him never to do it again," we proactively prevent him from doing it in the first place. But we don't let Chester use his sad tale of woe to get off the hook either. And if Victor does act out, decides to diddle a little boy or whatever, we look to other molesters to see what did or didn't work, why they did or didn't reoffend, and adjust accordingly. It will take time. There is no quick & easy fix. But continuing as we are now isn't working; so there's no harm in changing tactics.
 
2013-06-16 05:42:52 AM

12349876: [www.wired.com image 660x369]


Why is Russia not on this list?

It's a lot easier to make the US figure look bad when you omit other countries that are close.
Why not post the US vs the 4 lowest incarceration rates while you are at it.
 
2013-06-16 06:00:36 AM

Nutsac_Jim: fusillade762: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

Yeah, that's the root of the problem and not a privately run prison system worth $70 billion dollars a year.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 713x499]

Odd.... And yet here I am not in prison.  Maybe it has to do with me not committing felonies and misdemeanors.


Really? You must be a saint then, because everyone commits three felonies a day, by FBI statistics.
 
2013-06-16 06:02:32 AM

Mock26: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

You are an idiot.  Thank you for asking for clarification.

Now let me ask you a question, do you understand basic math?  Let us say that Country A has 1,000,000 people [≈ population of Amsterdam, capital city of Netherlands] and they they incarcerate 1,000 people [≈ population of Jamestown, capital city of Saint Helena, Ascension, and Tristan da Cunha].  Let us say that Country B has 500,000 people [≈ population of Skopje, capital city of Macedonia] and that they incarcerate 750 people.  Who has the higher incarceration rate?  Hmmm?  I will give you a hint, it is not Country A.


Here's a number crunch for you
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=130000+out+of+number+of+childre n+ in+the+united+states
 
2013-06-16 06:05:35 AM

Nutsac_Jim: 12349876: [www.wired.com image 660x369]

Why is Russia not on this list?

It's a lot easier to make the US figure look bad when you omit other countries that are close.
Why not post the US vs the 4 lowest incarceration rates while you are at it.


Ok, this one's hilarious ("you make us look bad by only comparing us to 1st world nations!"). But those other 5 posts of derp in a row, meh.
 
2013-06-16 06:17:12 AM

Foxxinnia: Mock26: Foxxinnia: The whole concept of punishment-based incarceration doesn't make any sense. Like, hey you're wicked farked up and did farked up stuff so we're going to put you in the most farked up environment we have for a long time. Then we'll release you into society again even more farked up than you were when you went in with the expectation you won't do more farked up shiat. Great system. That's totes safer than addressing the circumstances that actually cause people to commit crime. Just take people with no jobs and bad histories and give them criminal connections and psychological scarring and then release them onto us again. Thanks guys.

OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?

Well it's hardly an Einstein-level conundrum. Rehabilitative practices for criminals have been in development for decades and are being used around the world and increasingly in the United States. Not every single practice works obviously, but it's not too difficult to weed out best practices to develop methods that reduce recidivism and decrease costs in comparison to the current system.


How old are you? I am guessing under 25.

There are just flat out bad people, who do horrible things to other people, and deserve to be in prison. Actions have consequences and if you can't be trusted to work within the framework (laws) of a society then you no longer deserve to participate in it.

That being said, our justice system needs to rework the drug laws and victimless crimes penalties. I would bet there is a significant number of people in prison who have been busted multiple times for victimless crimes that have no business being in a prison. Prison should be a special place for violent and predatory folks whose crimes were perpetrated upon others, not a place for those whose crimes were against "the state".
 
2013-06-16 06:21:46 AM

Mock26: OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?


Unless people just jump to murder the prison system actually helps to create killers. A murderer might not have become a murderer if he had gotten on the right track earlier in his life instead of disrupting his education by going to prison and getting ideas from his fellow inmates. There was an article about this sort of thing recently, let me look it up.
 
2013-06-16 06:33:23 AM
Just getting them ready for FEMA camps.
 
2013-06-16 07:21:00 AM

fusillade762: hubiestubert: Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.

The good news is, once we do that, we can just find some one eyed, long haired miscreant to haul folks out when things go FUBAR. THIS is a perfect plan!

I thought he was dead?

~
~
Bah! Came here to retort that.

// but was gonna say "I thought you were dead"

// ie. accuse hubiestubert of being Snake
 
2013-06-16 08:11:15 AM
PER CAPITA MEANS "PER POPULATION"
IF YOU HAVE NOT LEARNED THIS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OR TYPE
 
2013-06-16 08:11:53 AM

Ilmarinen: Mock26: OK, Einstein, what is the solution?  What do we do with a murderer, for example, if he is caught and convicted?  Wag our finger at him call him a naughty boy?  Let him go and ask that he never do it again?  Hmmm?

Unless people just jump to murder the prison system actually helps to create killers. A murderer might not have become a murderer if he had gotten on the right track earlier in his life instead of disrupting his education by going to prison and getting ideas from his fellow inmates. There was an article about this sort of thing recently, let me look it up

W

hat do you propose as an alternative?
 
2013-06-16 08:16:29 AM

mikewadestr: prjindigo: wesmon: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

Troll or idiot?

Dunno, they posted on Fark.com, its hard to tell...

US is first in per capita, more than twice the number of the next first world nation.  Kind of like how the US is first in teen pregnancy almost twice as much as number 2 UK.


See my above post, Mikewadestr....
 
2013-06-16 08:20:36 AM
And?
 
2013-06-16 08:33:32 AM

WizardofToast: Mix our high incarceration rates with our cultural favoring of punishment over rehabilitation and you basically have a giant whirlpool pulling people back into the system till they drop dead.


It's more than that. When you look at the racial breakdown of incarceration, it becomes clear that this is less about locking people up than about controlling and disenfranchising certain demographics. Ex-cons lose many of their rights; for instance, the vote. That we began to see this explosion in racially-motivated arrest and imprisonment right around the time Jim Crow was being dismantled and de facto segregation in the North undermined by school busing is no coincidence.
 
2013-06-16 08:43:06 AM

minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.


This isn't just some policy we stumbled into. Hollywood and the media have been playing up gang violence since the 70s; relabeling the sort of stupid scuffles kids have always gotten into as an "epidemic of violence" that needed dealing with. As a result, through the 80s and 90s politicians and school boards started putting police in our schools on a permanent basis, and this is the inevitable result. Youth behavior hasn't really changed one whit; we just decided to criminalize it. We don't need an alternative, we just need to take cops out of our schools and go back to handling behavior problems administratively.
 
2013-06-16 08:43:47 AM
TommyymmoT


Philadelphia is closing 23 schools.
But that's OK, they're building a $400 million dollar prison to make up for it.

Proving once again those Bible belt conservati... ohhh Philadelphia.
 
2013-06-16 08:50:44 AM

prjindigo: PER CAPITA MEANS "PER POPULATION"
IF YOU HAVE NOT LEARNED THIS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OR TYPE


Bearsrepeating.jpg
 
2013-06-16 08:54:51 AM
Gee ya think the violent crime rate in the US might have something to do with the incarceration rate in the US?

I get a kick out of the posters who scream "but, but, PRIVATE PRISONS are to blame" as if the offenders willfully committing crimes had nothing to do with it.

You know, they are just walking along minding their own biz and get dropped in Super Max for no reason whatsoever!  How Unfair!
 
2013-06-16 09:22:53 AM

LordJiro: Mock26: Dear Author, the  United States also has a hell of a lot more people than all other developed nations.  With that being said, what are the per capita comparisons to all the other countries?

We're still number 1.

This is part of the reason why I laugh at the people getting their panties in a twist over the NSA. We've been in a police state for longer than a lot of people on Fark have been alive, and you're worried NOW?


Right, it's too late now. Just don't even worry about it and do your time like a man. Fark it!
 
2013-06-16 09:33:11 AM

TheWhoppah: hubiestubert: We chose a whole system of governance to PREVENT revenge, and instead we look to redress wrongs done to society and to persons throullugh reason


Bullshiat.  We used reason to recognize that amateur pitchfork-based revenge is message and prone to errors that results in the need for more revenge.  Government provides professional grade revenge with investigators that, in theory, care more about identifying the culprit than which ox was gored... with judges that care more about fairly applying the laws than who has a dog was in the fight... with wardens more concerned about preventing prisoner abuse and riots than selling indulgences.  Yes our system has a nice veneer of reason and civility but justice is primarily about revenge.  You are fooling yourself to insist otherwise.


lh4.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-16 09:33:12 AM

Turbo Cojones: Gee ya think the violent crime rate in the US might have something to do with the incarceration rate in the US?

I get a kick out of the posters who scream "but, but, PRIVATE PRISONS are to blame" as if the offenders willfully committing crimes had nothing to do with it.

You know, they are just walking along minding their own biz and get dropped in Super Max for no reason whatsoever!  How Unfair!


Whatever dude, there's a reason it's called con college.

Csb: The one and only night I've ever spent in jail (had a baggy with a stem and a couple of seeds and couldn't stop back talking the cop), I was the 14th person in an 8 man holding cell. Four people offered me "a job", said I could make a lot of money. One needed a new partner to help boost cars, two told me they could hook me up with a sweet gig cooking meth, and one said the same about slinging pot. If I wasn't gainfully employed with a supportive network of friends and family, I could very easily see how I would be tempted by these offers. I can also see how alluring that proposition would be for a young kid with no job and a family that didn't give a shiat. But I said no, because I knew when the morning came I'd be out and going back to work and that I wouldn't have to break the law again jut to make ends meet. Just to farking feed and clothe myself. If that's how jail was, I can't imagine the networking opportunities available in the farking prison system.

In short, go fark yourself.

/There's more ignorance on the main page than the politics tab
//And that's really saying a lot
 
2013-06-16 09:36:05 AM
perhaps they just need to reduce jail terms, remove the stigma of illegitimate babies, provide a guaranteed income whilst sorting out something long term, stack all the poor into housing projects where they can reinforce each other's irresponsible behaviour, and of course artifically inflate the self-esteem of personal failures

that has not worked at all for the last 40 years, but perhaps it just hasn't been tried long enough
 
2013-06-16 09:40:03 AM
Meh, legalize drugs and let the nonviolent drug offenders out.  The rest of them are probably trash.  Having spent several years of my life commuting by public transportation, I am only surprised by the number of miscreants who are free to roam the streets.

Let's face the facts: people are horrible.  They will abuse, steal from, rape, and kill each other even when it makes no sense and they have nothing to materially gain from it.  Instead of wasting more resources trying to rehabilitate folks who don't want to be rehabilitated, let's spend those resources on the millions of decent struggling folks who manage to fight the urge to go around stealing and killing.

In a perfect world we'd give everyone all the attention they need to change their life around, but we're not in a perfect world.  Criminals are the result of some combination of mental illness, poor upbringing, poverty, and sometimes just plain old stupidity.  Society isn't even close to addressing any of those problems, and thus the cycle of criminality will continue.  The best we can do for now is keep these damaged folk separate from decent law-abiding society.
 
2013-06-16 09:50:15 AM

minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.


give me doughnuts: Remove the profit motive for incarcerating people, and the rate of incarceration will go down.

Repeal ridiculous criminal and sentencing laws related to possession of marijuana, and the rate of incarceration will go down.


I, for one, have no problem with us publicly caning pot-heads.
 
2013-06-16 10:11:05 AM
Much like the conservative solution to teen pregnancy is to "punish" them by banning abortion and eliminating social support services - the idea that locking up kids is the solution to all their problems is ridiculous.
 
2013-06-16 10:22:40 AM
The children I knew or knew of (with the exception of two) who ended up in Juvie were there as a result of their parents.  Mom wouldn't get her lazy butt up and send the kids to school so the kids were sent away for truancy.
The exceptions were boys who shot and killed members of their 6th grade class.
In both instances, there were failures at home that brought about the situation.
 
2013-06-16 10:29:29 AM
There's plenty of data out there about sentencing inequality when it come to race. This article shows how it feeds the prejudiced types who can point out how one race is in jail more than others so THAT PROVES EVERYTHING.

/less white people every year
 
2013-06-16 11:12:56 AM
You are all already in prison.
The Nannys just have not had time to get all the bars and locks up, but never fear, they are working diligently on Prison America.

BTW, your new jailer looks, acts and thinks a lot like that TSA goon over at the airport.
 
2013-06-16 11:46:20 AM

Copper Spork: cptjeff: Let's fix it. There's a piece of legislation before Congress that should be a bipartisan measure that's going to come up for a push soon. The Youth PROMISE Act, which would invest in programs, chosen by local communities, that are proven to reduce youth violence, with the funding structured to encourage communities to take the savings from their corrections and police budgets and reinvest them in those same successful programs. Call your Representatives and ask them to support it. It saves money, is controlled at the community level, and reduces crime. Everybody wins.

Community organisers? Sounds like socialism.


Sounds like ineffective. how bout instilling fear into them. turn the juve halls into boot camps, hire a few drill sergeants..... voila!

/to me it is a sign of bad parenting.
 
2013-06-16 11:49:46 AM

cefm: Much like the conservative fundie solution to teen pregnancy is to "punish" them by banning abortion and eliminating social support services - the idea that locking up kids is the solution to all their problems is ridiculous.


Not the whole thing. Our problem? We make jail comfy. Heck, I volunteered for the Navy, and I got crapped on a hell of a lot worse that the guys in jail. That was one thing the Arizona loony sheriff had right... make prison unpleasant.
 
2013-06-16 12:31:16 PM

snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.


psh, the US puts more people in jail period than any other developed nation.

/that's what a pathological need to punish those we perceive as guilty gets us.
 
2013-06-16 12:36:34 PM
People_are_Idiots:
Not the whole thing. Our problem? We make jail comfy.

well, at least your handle is appropriate for one person here

/do you really believe that jails in the US are more comfortable than jails in the rest of the developed world?
 
2013-06-16 12:47:33 PM

Voiceofreason01: snuffy: see what absentee parenting gets us.

psh, the US puts more people in jail period than any other developed nation.

/that's what a pathological need to punish those we perceive as guilty gets us.


Juveniles are a tad different game. Drug law reform (marijuana specifically) would help reduce the rate, but ultimately, when it comes to kids misbehaving to the extent where the law gets involved, it's because there are a lack of good influences or disciplinarians in the child's life. You know... fathers.

Which brings me to my next item... Happy Father's Day for the male farkers out there who performed the basic human function of parenting and didn't run away from a harmless child like it was a ticking timebomb.
 
2013-06-16 12:50:10 PM
I noticed that the study referenced in the article said they could determine which judges were strict and which were lenient.  I wonder if they could also determine which judges were getting kick backs, because I bet that's an even bigger factor.
 
2013-06-16 12:51:56 PM

Voiceofreason01: People_are_Idiots:
Not the whole thing. Our problem? We make jail comfy.

well, at least your handle is appropriate for one person here

/do you really believe that jails in the US are more comfortable than jails in the rest of the developed world?


Yes, you, for assuming I'm talking about the rest of the world. I'm comparing our military vs our jails. I served did you?
 
2013-06-16 01:08:01 PM

ObeliskToucher: SuperNinjaToad: I think you missed the entire point.. even within the US the incarceration rates among juvies have gone up exponentially in the past 2 or 3 decades.
Now either kids in the US have gotten really violent all of a sudden or cops suddenly become more proactive in throwing people into prison compared to their peers before them. Since neither is probably true there is a 3rd possibility and that is our entire criminal/judicial system that is responsible for this exponential hike

It might have something to do with this statistic (from www.cdc.gov, 2008 data):

[i260.photobucket.com image 626x695]


Instead of comparing with other nations I like to see one with historical data.. I like to believe that the US have ALWAYS have high teen births per capita anyway.
 
2013-06-16 01:16:39 PM

TWX: minoridiot: Has anyone considered beating their butts?   I know it's a crazy idea, but it might be an alternative to detention.

"butbut Think of teh children!!!!!1!!!one!!"

In all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment. Kids need to learn that there are consequences for their actions before those consequences become enforced by the police and the courts.


...Except that, during puberty, the prefrontal cortex is one of the last areas of the brain to develop, meaning teenagers are aware that stupid shiat  looks cool--i.e. jumping off that roof on a bike--but  are biologically incapable of realizing it is a bad idea thanks to magical thinking--i.e. they don't realize they risk broken bones.

Or, to put it another way, when they think it's fun to shoplift, they  literally cannot understand what the consequences might be on a fundamental level. Beat them as much as you want--you can't change biology.

/And, as history has shown, it has never worked, no matter what discipline techniques a society uses. Teen boys are always the most hormone-filled idiots of the society, whether hunter-gatherers or princes of empires.
 
2013-06-16 02:16:28 PM

PsiChick: ...Except that, during puberty, the prefrontal cortex is one of the last areas of the brain to develop, meaning teenagers are aware that stupid shiat looks cool--i.e. jumping off that roof on a bike--but are biologically incapable of realizing it is a bad idea thanks to magical thinking--i.e. they don't realize they risk broken bones.

Or, to put it another way, when they think it's fun to shoplift, they literally cannot understand what the consequences might be on a fundamental level. Beat them as much as you want--you can't change biology.


There's no way I can agree with you on this just because I have a pretty good memory of when I was a teenage boy. Hormones made me do stupid things, but I KNEW they were stupid and understood the risks/consequences. I just knew I wanted to impress girls I had a crush on even more than I wanted to keep my leg from breaking. And of course we boys liked to make the risks we took look more impressive than they were to gain the benefits without as much negative consequences.
 
2013-06-16 02:28:43 PM

RicosRoughnecks: PsiChick: ...Except that, during puberty, the prefrontal cortex is one of the last areas of the brain to develop, meaning teenagers are aware that stupid shiat looks cool--i.e. jumping off that roof on a bike--but are biologically incapable of realizing it is a bad idea thanks to magical thinking--i.e. they don't realize they risk broken bones.

Or, to put it another way, when they think it's fun to shoplift, they literally cannot understand what the consequences might be on a fundamental level. Beat them as much as you want--you can't change biology.

There's no way I can agree with you on this just because I have a pretty good memory of when I was a teenage boy. Hormones made me do stupid things, but I KNEW they were stupid and understood the risks/consequences. I just knew I wanted to impress girls I had a crush on even more than I wanted to keep my leg from breaking. And of course we boys liked to make the risks we took look more impressive than they were to gain the benefits without as much negative consequences.


The bolded sentence is exactly what I mean by 'underdeveloped prefrontal cortex'. That's not actually something your brain should be capable of thinking under normal conditions.
 
2013-06-16 02:31:21 PM

RicosRoughnecks: There's no way I can agree with you on this just because I have a pretty good memory of when I was a teenage boy. Hormones made me do stupid things, but I KNEW they were stupid and understood the risks/consequences. I just knew I wanted to impress girls I had a crush on even more than I wanted to keep my leg from breaking. And of course we boys liked to make the risks we took look more impressive than they were to gain the benefits without as much negative consequences.


Don't forget that society has created a class of people called adolescents and basically isolated them from adults who can usually be a good influence.  This creates a sort of behavioral echo chamber.

When the only people you have to impress and seek approval from are other teens, dumb shiat gets as much approval as not so dumb shiat.  Adults have serious maturity problems at times, but put up with and reward far less dumb shiat.

Modern society could really use some introspection and realize that treating 17 year olds more like 5 year olds than 20 year olds is bound to lead to 17 year olds doing things that are not appropriate for 20 year olds and/or would only be done by 5 year olds.

Stop treating them like children and we will see less childlike behavior from them.
 
2013-06-16 02:41:00 PM

moothemagiccow: doglover: Legalize drugs. Bring back the swift death penalty for them as deserve it. Hold prosecutors accountable to draconian standards of conduct that put their life and the well being of their family in jeopardy in the event they wrongfully convict someone. Do away with sex offender registries. Make it illegal for a traffic violation ticket to monetarily benefit the state where it was issued.

Barely anyone gets pulled over here and everyone drives like a dick, or they're half asleep

TheWhoppah: SuperNinjaToad: The system itself is not about rehabilitation nor is it about corrections


Why should it be?  Justice is about (1) revenge and (2) keeping innocent people safe.  Who cares about the offenders.  fark them.  They suck.

So... life sentence for jaywalking? I care about the offenders when laws are dumb, education sucks, there's a national hatred of knowledge, and selling illegal drugs is a well-paying, easy job to get.



No, its really not.  Try reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics

especially the chapter on why drug dealers still live with their parents and get back to us, rather than making shiat up.
 
2013-06-16 02:46:35 PM

TheWhoppah: WhyteRaven74: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge

Revenge fixes nothing. Revenge is based on the idea a present action can undo a past action. Which it clearly can not. Or that having committed some wrong a person is deserving of an equal or worse wrong. Justice does not work that way.


Thanks for your input Ghandi.  Now run along back to Utopia and smoke a bong with Jesus.  Like it or not, the human sense of justice is based squarely on revenge.  You can see it in a group of toddlers... as soon as they can walk they begin dishing out their own revenge-based justice.


I find that most often when people use how infants or toddlers act to prove their point that they are referencing individuals who are on the same intelligence and maturity level as they are.
 
2013-06-16 02:49:28 PM

PsiChick: The bolded sentence is exactly what I mean by 'underdeveloped prefrontal cortex'. That's not actually something your brain should be capable of thinking under normal conditions.


While I can definitely agree with you there, I also need to mention I never once broke anything. Like I said before, I would do something that looked dangerous and impressive, but usually without actually putting myself in any real danger. The self preservation instinct was definitely the strongest one I ever felt. It's those darn selfish genes trying to propagate themselves through any means necessary.
 
2013-06-16 03:06:25 PM

RicosRoughnecks: PsiChick: The bolded sentence is exactly what I mean by 'underdeveloped prefrontal cortex'. That's not actually something your brain should be capable of thinking under normal conditions.

While I can definitely agree with you there, I also need to mention I never once broke anything. Like I said before, I would do something that looked dangerous and impressive, but usually without actually putting myself in any real danger. The self preservation instinct was definitely the strongest one I ever felt. It's those darn selfish genes trying to propagate themselves through any means necessary.


Ah. Yeah, in that case (without knowing anything about your brain scans), I would guess that you, like me, actually  had a developed prefrontal cortex. If you'd acted on the urge and broken bones, you'd be a candidate for typical puberty, i.e. with a badly-developed prefrontal cortex.

/Like I said, I'm going off what you say, not brain scans, but with that context it now sounds like it
//The kids without it are littering Youtube.
 
2013-06-16 03:18:26 PM

hubiestubert: TheWhoppah: Justice is, first and foremost, about revenge.  The justice system is an attempt to create a fair system with professional disinterested accuracy but, at its core, it always has been and always will be about revenge.  Have you ever watched toddlers.  They understand revenge.  It is a basic part of our animal psyche and the right to seek revenge for wrongdoings is a fundamental human right.  Keeping revenge quarrels from plunging the tribe into chaos is one of the most basic functions of government.  It is one of the reasons the tribe chooses a chief.

So, the Enlightenment, the march of progress, the foundations of civilization, those are just kerfuffles, and truly, we should just arm ourselves and grab pitchforks and hanging ropes when we get antsy about our neighbor?

Oh wait. We DID choose a chief. We chose a whole system of governance to PREVENT revenge, and instead we look to redress wrongs done to society and to persons through reason. But that's too boring for a keen legal mind such your own, yes?

[lh4.googleusercontent.com image 640x480]


Normally I agree with just about anything you say, but this time I agree with the person you're arguing with.

The system of which you speak largely serves the purpose of diffusing the responsibility for revenge across a larger demographic, say we the people as opposed to you the guy or you that lynch mob.

That's not to say that we don't strive for higher moral and ethical ideals in punishing crime (such as, ideally in my view, protecting people from the predators among them), but at its fundamental level punishing crime is still about payback.

You did wrong, now we the people (instead of we the lynch-mob or I the vigilante) are going to get you for it (and if we're thinking about it, protecting everyone else from you).

If someone hurt your daughter, can you truly say that you would be looking for anything more than payback by way of we the people?
 
2013-06-16 03:39:55 PM
Stupid behavior loses most of it's fun unless you know it is stupid in the first place.
 
2013-06-16 07:06:33 PM

Weaver95: lets just throw everyone into one giant open air, unregulated prison.  how about Death Valley?  we can isolate it easy enough.  put in some basic infrastructure, like wells or whatever.  wall it off, then take all our undesirables and throw 'em into the prison.  once you go in, you don't get out.  inside - anything goes.  no rules, save you stay inside 'till you die.  we can throw in men, women, kids, political prisoners, damn near anyone we want.  just air drop supplies in on a random pattern at regular intervals.


Why drop in supplies? As long as we keep throwing in people the problem takes care of itself!

Also add in "reality show" and you have a deal.
 
2013-06-16 07:32:51 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: You did wrong, now we the people (instead of we the lynch-mob or I the vigilante) are going to get you for it (and if we're thinking about it, protecting everyone else from you).

If someone hurt your daughter, can you truly say that you would be looking for anything more than payback by way of we the people?


This is one of the reasons that we employ a system of laws, to get folks who want revenge out of the business of serving up justice. As a father, someone who hurts my daughter had best hope that the police get there first. I won't be serving up justice, I will be serving up heapings of revenge. Which is why we have laws to prevent lynch mobs rolling out, because oddly enough, I might get the identity wrong. I might also not realize exactly the circumstances either. I will be blinded by rage, and justice isn't about rage. And if that poor SOB had family, they would then be looking for their own payback, and a whole circle of feuds then rolls out, vendetta after vendetta. Punishment is a factor, but that has to suit the crime, and the aggrieved party or their family isn't necessarily in the best position to decide that. We have that remove with a system of laws, and appointed police and judges and a whole passel of folks to intercede to avoid a cascade of revenge, because we've seen how that works out already.

Revenge is a powerful motivator, and society strives to punish those who have harmed folks, but at that remove to keep folks from that cascade of revenge that only leads to further violence. Mind you, our own system has its flaws. We are a nation that prides itself on being tough on crime, and our system right now breeds a LOT of crime through our economic and domestic policies, our less than stellar educational system that sees folks failing as a feature, not a bug. We are in fact banking on folks failing miserably, and some folks are seeing a tidy profit on keeping things rolling that way.

We can do better. We should be doing better, and that is really the way that folks should be voting, not to see this cycle continue.

We want less crime? Then we need a better social safety net. We need better education--not just better funded, but shifting our goals towards skills based education, as opposed to test standards which only gauge how well folks take tests. We are gearing ourselves towards a perpetuation of the troubles we see today. We need to focus on our local economies, we might want to rethink this idiotic War on Drugs that only serves to feed the prison industry--as well as pad out police budgets and likewise profit those who take a nice cut with seizures.

We don't, because folks like to play the "tough on crime" card, which only perpetuates the cycle, and only serves to create more felons, who have distinctly less opportunities after they have supposedly paid their debt to society. We are creating our own monsters to then react against, and then dare to be shocked when those monsters behave exactly thusly. Our justice system still needs some work, but it's still miles better than lynching folks we think did something...
 
2013-06-16 11:38:33 PM

doglover: Legalize drugs. Bring back the swift death penalty for them as deserve it. Hold prosecutors accountable to draconian standards of conduct that put their life and the well being of their family in jeopardy in the event they wrongfully convict someone. Do away with sex offender registries. Make it illegal for a traffic violation ticket to monetarily benefit the state where it was issued.


Bah!! You're describing a fantasy world! A justice system that BENEFITS the people?!? Lunacy!
 
2013-06-17 07:32:51 AM

prjindigo: PER CAPITA MEANS "PER POPULATION"
IF YOU HAVE NOT LEARNED THIS YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK OR TYPE


Fail. Per Capita is reference to "per person" within a population. Now stop typing.
 
2013-06-17 12:36:59 PM
Just because you are not incarcerated doesn't mean you shouldn't be.

***************************************************
Nor does it mean you should be. Making the prison system a "growth industry" was a huge mistake and now our kids are paying the price.
 
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