If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Newspaper)   Missouri appeals court strikes down St. Louis red light camera ordinance because it doesn't offer vehicle owners the option to plead not guilty   (thenewspaper.com) divider line 42
    More: Interesting, St. Louis, Missouri, red light cameras, Appeals Court, local ordinance, Missouri Supreme Court, owners, trial courts  
•       •       •

4521 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jun 2013 at 12:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



42 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-06-15 11:06:23 AM  
Or they could do what the other courts do and charge a $100.00 'administrative fee' for pleading not guilty so they get their money anyway.
 
2013-06-15 11:47:38 AM  
Fark you, ATS.
 
2013-06-15 12:58:51 PM  
But what about $afety?
 
2013-06-15 01:00:59 PM  

Sim Tree: Or they could do what the other courts do and charge a $100.00 'administrative fee' for pleading not guilty so they get their money anyway.


Yay Poll Taxes
 
2013-06-15 01:03:38 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Sim Tree: Or they could do what the other courts do and charge a $100.00 'administrative fee' for pleading not guilty so they get their money anyway.

Yay Poll Taxes


Want to know how I know that you don't understand how the Constitution works?
 
2013-06-15 01:05:07 PM  
http://fox2now.com/2013/06/11/court-of-appeals-rules-red-light-cameras -constitutional/

More established news sights appear to be saying the complete opposite.
 
2013-06-15 01:05:18 PM  
That's bullshiat, she didn't voluntarily pay the fine, she paid it under the threat of going to jail or more fines.

Doesn't that mean she was in a sense blackmailed? I think so.
 
2013-06-15 01:06:51 PM  
I'm just wondering where ATS, a private company, gets the legal standing to issue tickets and assess fines in the first place.
 
2013-06-15 01:07:59 PM  

buckler: I'm just wondering where ATS, a private company, gets the legal standing to issue tickets and assess fines in the first place.


Because FREEDUMB!
 
GBB
2013-06-15 01:10:17 PM  

strangeluck: That's bullshiat, she didn't voluntarily pay the fine, she paid it under the threat of going to jail or more fines.

Doesn't that mean she was in a sense blackmailed? I think so.


Blackmail deals with damaging a person's reputation.
Extortion deals with physical harm, or just the threat of it.

This is extortion.
 
2013-06-15 01:12:41 PM  
If only this could happen in Arizona. They are everywhere and have even gotten them for crossing the intersection 0.2 seconds late.

Basically you can watch nearly every light change and count how much money they make from us peons.

There is no point in contesting it. Maybe a wealthy person could fight it to the state supreme court and see what happens.

Otherwise they make so much money they just keep expanding speed cameras and red light cameras.
 
2013-06-15 01:12:55 PM  
oi43.tinypic.com
 
2013-06-15 01:13:19 PM  

buckler: I'm just wondering where ATS, a private company, gets the legal standing to issue tickets and assess fines in the first place.


The same way health care providers now have the right to levy taxes - out of thin air.
 
2013-06-15 01:14:58 PM  
Pfttt...  San Diego got rid of them last year...
 
2013-06-15 01:16:20 PM  
Seems like a very hollow, short-lived victory.

What's stopping the city from just slightly changing the options to include "Not Guilty," and resuming the cameras?
 
2013-06-15 01:22:56 PM  
Your always guilty of something.
 
2013-06-15 01:23:52 PM  

Corn_Fed: What's stopping the city from just slightly changing the options to include "Not Guilty," and resuming the cameras?


The option was always there.  The problem was the initial notification failed to mention the option of a court hearing instead of just paying up:
In its Final Judgment, the trial court concluded the Ordinance violates procedural due process because no summons or court date is provided with the Notice of Violation. Rather, a court date is provided only with the Final Notice, and is not sent to the vehicle owner until after the due date for paying the fine has passed
Think of it like a speeding-ticket-Miranda. All they need to do is be more meticulous about informing the accused of their rights.
 
2013-06-15 01:24:28 PM  

Deep Contact: Your always guilty of something.


Ignorance of basic grammar?
 
2013-06-15 01:24:49 PM  

rockspin: http://fox2now.com/2013/06/11/court-of-appeals-rules-red-light-camera s -constitutional/

More established news sights appear to be saying the complete opposite.


"sites"

/yeah article is full of crap. The Court of Appeals upheld the law.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/missouri-appeals -c ourt-upholds-st-louis-red-light-camera-ordinance/article_24605b83-5f0b -5c6c-a585-b4843558b988.html
 
2013-06-15 01:25:29 PM  

rockspin: More established news sights appear to be saying the complete opposite.


Those sites are re-writing the press release from the company that runs the cameras:
http://www.atsol.com/missouri-appellate-court-rejects-challenges-to- re d-light-safety-cameras/

ATS is seizing on the win on a lesser point, that it's OK to adopt an ordinance. The bigger point is the ordinance they adopted conflicts with state law in two ways. One has been fixed, the other hasn't.

The decision says in a footnote that the judges think the ordinance conflicts with state law, but they can't consider that argument because the lawyer didn't make it.
 
2013-06-15 01:27:14 PM  

Voiceofreason01: /yeah article is full of crap. The Court of Appeals upheld the law.


www.washingtonpost.com
 
2013-06-15 01:29:30 PM  

Voiceofreason01: /yeah article is full of crap. The Court of Appeals upheld the law.


"It is with these principles in mind that we find the Ordinance void for failure to comply with the Supreme Court rules and affirm the trial court's judgment in that respect."

Page 36 of the linked decision.
 
2013-06-15 01:34:36 PM  

Taxcheat: "It is with these principles in mind that we find the Ordinance void for failure to comply with the Supreme Court rules and affirm the trial court's judgment in that respect."


Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras, just the notification process for the accused.  They struck down an ordinance, for failing to fulfill proper notice requirements, because the ordinance had been written by cretins.
 
2013-06-15 01:36:41 PM  

Fantasta Potamus: If only this could happen in Arizona. They are everywhere and have even gotten them for crossing the intersection 0.2 seconds late.

Basically you can watch nearly every light change and count how much money they make from us peons.

There is no point in contesting it. Maybe a wealthy person could fight it to the state supreme court and see what happens.

Otherwise they make so much money they just keep expanding speed cameras and red light cameras.


ATS is based in Tempe, Arizona, so I am pretty sure your legislature is bought lock, stock, and barrel already.
 
2013-06-15 01:40:45 PM  
WTF? How can any court system not allow pleading not guilty?

Even in traffic cases we should avoid anything resembling Stalinist kangaroo courts. It violates due process and sets a very very bad precedent.

Then again maybe this kind of thing will get more people to Question Authority, the first step in anarchy.

You gotta fight for ALL your rights. Learn your rights and insist on them. When "They" try to take them from you you must speak up, and fight back when that's necessary. It's not only your prerogative as an individual, it's your duty as a member of the American people.

If you don't have any need for no stinking rights you should move to North Korea. In the past few years they've lost a whole lot of people because of starvation, so they could use you. If for nothing else, your soft fat hams might be mighty tasty.
 
2013-06-15 01:43:57 PM  

gwowen: Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras


Neither did the court. Re-read what I wrote above. The judges upheld the right to adopt the ordinance, not the content of the ordinance itself which they strongly hinted (in dicta) was in conflict with state law.
 
PKY
2013-06-15 01:46:48 PM  
In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.
 
2013-06-15 01:47:06 PM  
All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.
 
2013-06-15 02:03:48 PM  
I got one and I never paid it. Nothing happened. I got it for crossing the line but not going through the intersection.
 
2013-06-15 02:16:28 PM  
Not like it's going to matter in the long run, anyone who's ever tried pleading not guilty to a traffic ticket probably knows, the deck is stacked against you from the get go. Even if you get out of the ticket, you'll pay more in "administration fees" then the ticket would have cost.
 
2013-06-15 02:18:27 PM  

Taxcheat: gwowen: Yeah, but that didn't speak to the constitutionality of the cameras

Neither did the court. Re-read what I wrote above. The judges upheld the right to adopt the ordinance, not the content of the ordinance itself which they strongly hinted (in dicta) was in conflict with state law.


I am in violent agreement with you.
 
2013-06-15 02:27:15 PM  

PKY: In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.


These aren't too target the people that blow through a red light randomly when traffic is already going the other way and endanger lives.

This targets people that go through the light fractions of a second after it switched from yellow to red.
 
2013-06-15 02:43:49 PM  
Maybe soon they'll just have people wearing Google Glass pick up some extra money by using their space-age spy spectacles to report speeders, litterers, jaywalkers, and other criminals on a citizen$ patrol dealio.
 
2013-06-15 02:45:42 PM  

Fantasta Potamus: PKY: In some countries the penalty for running a red light is mandatory suspended license. And likely forced to retake the driving tests. Because you shouldn't be allowed to be in the driver's seat of tons of steel if you can't handle the most basic idea in traffic, red = stop.

These aren't too target the people that blow through a red light randomly when traffic is already going the other way and endanger lives.

This targets people that go through the light fractions of a second after it switched from yellow to red.


AND people who go through on yellow but don't go fast enough to make it through the intersection before it turns red.
 
2013-06-15 02:48:18 PM  

dickfreckle: All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.


The good news is that we seem to have hit "peak Camera".  On the one hand, there are still plenty of cities that have them, and plenty that are planning on using them.

On the other hand, at least one state that I know of* has banned automated enforcement entirely, and a bunch of others are trying.  A lot of cities are realizing that the way the contracts are written actually costs money.  And so I think that this is an idea that will slide into the dustbin of history outside of the more corrupt states and cities.

*Michigan - If you've ever driven in Michigan, you'll know why.  Clipping the red light is a cherished tradition such that in any other state, I'm about a second late off the line, and MI drivers are sane, wonderful people by any other state's standard until they get on an interstate at which point they drive 85 (and are perfectly safe, sane people while going 85 in a 55).
 
2013-06-15 03:14:55 PM  
I got one of these driving through Newark. I swear the yellow light for that left turn is less than 2 seconds. Coming from NY I am not used to that shiat. I am NOT in the habit of blowing through red lights. The blurry picture they helpfully included shows maybe 18in of my bumper over the yellow line.

/driving in NJ is a farking nightmare
 
2013-06-15 04:09:45 PM  
Maybe if you guys lived in a more enlightened state like Mississippi you wouldn't have to worry about dumb things like red-light cameras ;)

/That's right, we actually did something right first, for once
//or did something right at all, actually
///shut up, LET ME HAVE THIS ONE THING
 
2013-06-15 04:28:04 PM  

Sim Tree: Or they could do what the other courts do and charge a $100.00 'administrative fee' for pleading not guilty so they get their money anyway.


It's worse in Illinois.  The stack of court costs in traffic court amount to over $300, even when you're found not guilty.  The judge says "Don't complain to me or the clerk.  The rates are set by state law."

Being that most in traffic are illegals with no license or insurance*, the 20-something various entities found another way to bleed money from people who can't vote them out of office, and for the rest of us, we must have been guilty of sumthin' or the cops wouldn't have pulled us over.

*Who drive their cars out the traffic court parking lot afterwards
 
2013-06-15 07:11:53 PM  

dickfreckle: All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.


You should just stop driving if it becomes too burdensome.
 
2013-06-15 08:39:50 PM  
Pay the fine or we will fark you up.

Since you voluntarily paid the fine, you don't get your money back even though you aren't guilty.

Farking government thinking.
 
2013-06-15 08:53:44 PM  
This is the future of unconstitutional law enforcement in North America.

By denying the perps Right to a court of law without suffering monetary penalty to do so, the State makes instant money while cutting costs of using courts and jails.

/Areas of Europe needs the driver in the image of the plate or no ticket Mr. Masked Farker.
 
2013-06-15 09:22:50 PM  

dickfreckle: All I know is that I should have the right to confront my accuser. How do I argue that the machine was in error or that it wasn't me driving? I got a ticket while driving my friend's SUV (he had too many beers). That ticket was in his name. What if I were a dick and didn't pay it?

Oh, and I was going 5 miles over the speed limit. Giving issues like speedo calibration, that seems a little stupid. There should be a higher margin for error. A human cop usually doesn't care until you're clearly ignoring the speed limit.

I'd also suggest that being so paranoid about your speedometer is actually more dangerous than just cruising down the road. Every time I'm in one of those camera zones I'm constantly checking my speed instead of concentrating on the road/conditions. I have to keep with the flow of traffic but if I even inch over the limit, I can look forward to a $75 ticket. So now you have a group of drivers staring at their dashboards instead of noticing the vehicle being followed that just slammed on its brakes.



Driving in Phoenix Sux.
 
Displayed 42 of 42 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report