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(WTAM)   Should the U.S. government be forced to buy American-made American flags? Ab-so-damn-lutely   (wtam.com) divider line 158
    More: Obvious, American flags, Americans, U.S. Government, Flag Days, National Historic Landmark, American workers, United States Navy  
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4314 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jun 2013 at 6:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-14 08:12:06 PM  
Respect.
 
2013-06-14 08:14:32 PM  

positronica: but simply saying "buy American", without taking all the costs to the economy into mind doesn't really make sense.


False. People and money only exist in the US. All other countries, people, and financial transactions are just an illusion put there by the devil to test our faith.
 
2013-06-14 08:19:54 PM  
No.
 
2013-06-14 08:23:08 PM  

Bravo Two: Personally, I'd rather support businesses that favor people HERE than spending money that ultimate goes to support some family in China when people in my own country are starving.


Because there aren't starving people in China? Because the starving people in China aren't as deserving of your help? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If you said "I'd rather spend money here because I carefully choose my expenditures to ensure they increase food security and I cannot do that effectively when buying goods from overseas" or "China has inhumane business practices and spending with them will encourage further injustice" you might be on to something. But it's not at all clear to me how simply spending money locally leads to inherently better outcomes, even if you ignore the direct downside to the people who are not "here".
 
2013-06-14 08:25:31 PM  

WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?


Why do t we cut out the middle man and use US prison labor instead of the chineese prison labor that makes it now
 
2013-06-14 08:27:34 PM  

cardex: Why do t we cut out the middle man and use US prison labor instead of the chineese prison labor that makes it now


Prisoners make more per hour than a Chinese laborer.
 
2013-06-14 08:28:29 PM  

Rat: Where else can you buy your USA flag, a TAMU flag, and a UT flag alongside a gay pride flag, and be more proud of your purchase!!!

©  http://www.dixieflag.com/about_us/


Glad to see somebody remembered Dixie Flag Company! Took a tour of the place about a decade ago. The emphasis was definitely on producing high quality work, not cranking out product as quickly as possible. It was not so much a factory than it was a collection of craftspeople who really enjoyed what they were doing. Wish more companies like that existed.
 
2013-06-14 08:35:06 PM  
Why is this even an issue.  Of course, whenever possible, government contracts should go to domestic companies rather than foreign ones.  Partly out of symbolism, and partly out of a desire to keep the money essentially "in house" as it were.  If a foreign company wants to compete for a contract, it should provide a clear and compelling reason why its product is better than any domestic product.  I'd also grant an exemption for products that are much cheaper than domestic ones, but then we'd have to get into asking why the products are so much cheaper.  A lot of stuff from places like China is essentially slave labor, which can't be supported under any sense of economy.

It's not just a US thing.  Every country does this when possible.  The US President rolls in a custom Caddy, the Britis PM in a Rolls or Bentley, and the German Chancellor in a Mercedes or BMW.  Every country has a tendency to give preference to domestic brands.  It's just what's done.  Public procurement is not just a pure matter of "whats cheapest wins".
 
2013-06-14 08:46:17 PM  

Benjimin_Dover: MaudlinMutantMollusk: FloydA: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?

Annin Flagmakers,  C.F. Flag,J.C. Schultz Enterprises, Inc. / The Flag Source,and Valley Forge Flag.

According to the Flag Manufacturers Association of America.

Thanks

/wasn't really serious, but, thanks

They highlighted one of them on the news this morning. I forget which one, but has been making US flags since the mid 1800's.


Strangely enough, the one in the Senator's state.
 
2013-06-14 08:46:23 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Doesn't the government have enough flags already? How about spending that money on something useful?


this
 
2013-06-14 08:49:39 PM  

positronica: FloydA: nekom: Here's a good question:  Who the hell cares?


1) Flag makers
2) People who live in communities where flag manufacturing plants are located and work in support industries
3) People who produce the material from which flags are made
4) People who live in the communities where those materials are produced and work in support industries
5) People who think "patriotism" should be more than just empty rhetoric and misspelled protest signs

So if the government buys more expensive flags, instead of the cheapest, what part of the budget gets cut to make up the difference?  Who has to get paid less so that US flag makers get this extra income?  Aren't the individuals and communities who have to take the cut important?  Or are products focused around symbolic "patriotism" and nationalism more deserving of wasteful spending?

Here's a better suggestion for issues such as this: The government should only buy more expensive products if the industry that produces that product is on the verge of disappearing domestically AND if having that industry be active domestically is considered to be in the nation's vital interests.


Here's an even better idea: what if "the government" was composed of us - you, me, your neighbors, and the people that we know, and "the government" actually worked in the best interests of the people who are citizens of the country?  That would be weird, eh?  What if "the government" decided that American manufacturers were the best sources for our military technology, rather than outsourcing those contracts to the lowest bidder?  What if "the government" decided that roads, railways, bridges, and other necessary parts of our infrastructure should be manufactured here, rather than in China?

Wouldn't that be great?  Of course, it would mean that we would have to stop claiming that "the government" is always wrong and start admitting that "the government" is us, the American people.  That might not go over too well with people who don't like "the government."
 
2013-06-14 08:55:25 PM  

FloydA: nekom: Here's a good question:  Who the hell cares?


1) Flag makers
2) People who live in communities where flag manufacturing plants are located and work in support industries
3) People who produce the material from which flags are made
4) People who live in the communities where those materials are produced and work in support industries
5) People who think "patriotism" should be more than just empty rhetoric and misspelled protest signs


6) People who like feelgood legislation instead of having Congress tackle issues that actually affect us as a country.
 
2013-06-14 08:59:05 PM  
Now, you can't be biatching about government spending AND expect the government to pay American prices.
 
2013-06-14 08:59:08 PM  

WordyGrrl: Rat: Where else can you buy your USA flag, a TAMU flag, and a UT flag alongside a gay pride flag, and be more proud of your purchase!!!

©  http://www.dixieflag.com/about_us/

Glad to see somebody remembered Dixie Flag Company! Took a tour of the place about a decade ago. The emphasis was definitely on producing high quality work, not cranking out product as quickly as possible. It was not so much a factory than it was a collection of craftspeople who really enjoyed what they were doing. Wish more companies like that existed.


And look at their pricing, $20.30 for a flag with sewn stripes and printed stars.  Not expensive at all.
 
2013-06-14 09:00:19 PM  

Slappajo: I don't know.  This is a pretty slippery slope.  The next thing you know there might be legislation requiring Americans to buy something specific...maybe something like health insurance.

I know it's a stretch, but it could happen.


This business of enfolding existing private health insurance policy makers into the Obamacare public system will boost insurance profits through the roof, mark my words. Worst idea for controlling costs since Medicare D did the same thing. Costs for part D are 3 to 4 times what the CBO estimated. I saw it coming, and I told everyone who'd listen but no, nobody listens to an old pharmacist who sees the bullshiat corporations shovel at the government and the citizenry every day.

So I'm telling you now, either totally public or totally private is how to improve the healthcare system, not this bastard devil the insurance companies paid for.
 
2013-06-14 09:03:05 PM  

moothemagiccow: Eddie Adams from Torrance: Doesn't the government have enough flags already? How about spending that money on something useful?

this


Outdoor flags need to be replaced pretty regularly, and the military coffin ones have been flying off the shelves over the last dozen years or so... or are you cool with a tattered flag flying at your post office?
 
2013-06-14 09:04:16 PM  
Gig103:
I know there is already the Fly American Act which means gov't employees and contractors can't fly non-American carriers for business, and I'm okay with that too.

You've never received a federal research grant, say, from the NSF and used some of the funds to travel internationally (e.g., to a conference), have you?  And subsequently lost two additional days of work needed to make all the weird connections?  And paid about three times the cost to fly as it would have cost if you could have flown a non-American airline?
 
2013-06-14 09:04:30 PM  
Meanwhile, we spend billions on debacles and force the purchase of tanks we don't need.

Who farking cares? Its a tiny tiny tiny expense compared to what we knowingly waste.
 
2013-06-14 09:16:21 PM  
They can buy American-made flag stickers to plop on their foreign cars.  yay
 
2013-06-14 09:28:56 PM  
Why don't you make American-made products tax-free?.
 
2013-06-14 09:32:29 PM  

WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?


Yep.

 It's called paying for a "living wage" not supporting farking slavery.

/seems to be a difficult concept for some.
 
2013-06-14 09:34:53 PM  

CygnusDarius: Why don't you make American-made products tax-free?.


NAFTA frowns on your protectionism.
 
2013-06-14 09:36:27 PM  

cuzsis: WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?

Yep.

 It's called paying for a "living wage" not supporting farking slavery.

/seems to be a difficult concept for some.


Plus American-made products are generally superior to that of other countries, at least where we still have an industry.
 
2013-06-14 09:39:36 PM  

sno man: CygnusDarius: Why don't you make American-made products tax-free?.

NAFTA frowns on your protectionism.


I think NAFTA was a big mistake that only benefits a few people, and not the people it's supposed to benefit.
 
2013-06-14 09:59:00 PM  

zepillin: so now the Chinese currently making flags with 50% "american made materials"
will have to start making american flags with 100% "american made materials"

I feel so confused by this news article.
I don't think it's saying what it seems to think it's saying.


That was my impression too, "made from American-made materials" isn't the same as "manufactured/assembled in the U.S."
I'm also just baffled why one nation would make another nation's flag, I mean it just sounds ridiculous.  Flags aren't some novelty good, they're a country's colors.  If you can't make your own flag/colors, what the hell kind of country are you?  Not to mention the idea of another nation, one who we're so economically in bed with that we keep forgetting they've never really stopped being the enemy yet we keep a blind eye turned to all their disregard for basic human rights, this other nation is authorized to produce millions of our colors?
 
2013-06-14 09:59:19 PM  

CygnusDarius: sno man: CygnusDarius: Why don't you make American-made products tax-free?.

NAFTA frowns on your protectionism.

I think NAFTA was a big mistake that only benefits a few people, and not the people it's supposed to benefit.


Sitting on the generally north side of the border... America does fine bending rules and regs to suit their benefit, that were set up under NAFTA, mostly without penalty... but yea only a few actually benefit from that bending.
 
2013-06-14 09:59:31 PM  

EvilEgg: So does it have to be made from US cotton


YES


woven into cloth in the US

YES

dyed with dyes made from ingredients completely sourced from the US

YES


Or does just final assembly have to be in the US?

ALL OF THE ABOVE.
 
2013-06-14 10:04:32 PM  

Kittypie070: EvilEgg: So does it have to be made from US cotton

YES

woven into cloth in the US

YES

dyed with dyes made from ingredients completely sourced from the US

YES

Or does just final assembly have to be in the US?

ALL OF THE ABOVE.


I would wear that.
 
2013-06-14 10:12:04 PM  

positronica: You description of how buying American helps a community sounds great, but you left out the other half of the equation completely. All of the people in your example who are now suddenly buying American are lowering their standard of living below where it would be otherwise by buying less efficiently produced, more expensive goods. And if you spread that analysis across the whole economy, in the long term that loss of efficiency lowers the national standard of living as a whole.


What about the social costs that unemployment and lack of job security bring?
 
2013-06-14 10:19:37 PM  

skinink: American made:


She's wearing the flag upside down (stars on bottom)... This means she needs to be rescued.

Unfortunately, my rescue attempt may very well end up being very unrespectful of the flag.
 
2013-06-14 10:24:20 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: positronica: You description of how buying American helps a community sounds great, but you left out the other half of the equation completely. All of the people in your example who are now suddenly buying American are lowering their standard of living below where it would be otherwise by buying less efficiently produced, more expensive goods. And if you spread that analysis across the whole economy, in the long term that loss of efficiency lowers the national standard of living as a whole.

What about the social costs that unemployment and lack of job security bring?


It doesn't cause unemployment in the long term. In the long term those people that would have been in manufacturing jobs move to other professions: electronics, chemistry, computing, etc. Or putting that another way, if we protected our manufacturing jobs back in the 80's we wouldn't have the lead in computing that Intel, Apple, or Google gave us.

You might like to say that we need to keep those manufacturing jobs, but I sure hope that you're not wishing for those jobs for your children.
 
2013-06-14 10:28:03 PM  

JuggleGeek: Pass a law that says they have to be american made, and what you'll most likely end up with is illegal aliens in a sweat shop sewing factory or something similar.  I like the idea, but I'm not convinced it would work the way people want.


They'll be made in Samoa or Guam.
 
2013-06-14 10:31:22 PM  

Chagrin: It doesn't cause unemployment in the long term. In the long term those people that would have been in manufacturing jobs move to other professions: electronics, chemistry, computing, etc. Or putting that another way, if we protected our manufacturing jobs back in the 80's we wouldn't have the lead in computing that Intel, Apple, or Google gave us.


I don't see that connection. Would we have fewer doctors if we had a lot more manufacturing jobs? We have a large under class, people struggling to find middle class jobs and maybe a stable schedule with some job security. Giving those people jobs won't siphon workers from Google. Probably would also mean fewer people in prison.
 
2013-06-14 10:41:37 PM  

nekom: Here's a good question:  Who the hell cares?



Lobbyists.
 
2013-06-14 10:48:34 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?


Arkansas Flag and Banner
 
2013-06-14 10:51:38 PM  

gfid: FloydA: nekom: Here's a good question:  Who the hell cares?


1) Flag makers
2) People who live in communities where flag manufacturing plants are located and work in support industries
3) People who produce the material from which flags are made
4) People who live in the communities where those materials are produced and work in support industries
5) People who think "patriotism" should be more than just empty rhetoric and misspelled protest signs

6) People who like feelgood legislation instead of having Congress tackle issues that actually affect us as a country.


I dunno.  I was under the impression that the GOP's promised "laser-like focus on jobs" might include something like, for instance, jobs.

Was I naive about that?
 
2013-06-14 10:58:29 PM  

wildlifer: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?

Arkansas Flag and Banner


Excellent, thanks, I needed a new American flag vinyl sticker for my car.  It was so cheap that I had money left over for a month of TF for you.
 
2013-06-14 11:04:57 PM  

IronTom: wildlifer: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?

Arkansas Flag and Banner

Excellent, thanks, I needed a new American flag vinyl sticker for my car.  It was so cheap that I had money left over for a month of TF for you.


Thank you kind sir.
 
2013-06-14 11:15:24 PM  

wildlifer: IronTom: wildlifer: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?

Arkansas Flag and Banner

Excellent, thanks, I needed a new American flag vinyl sticker for my car.  It was so cheap that I had money left over for a month of TF for you.

Thank you kind sir.


You're welcome!  Enjoy.
 
2013-06-14 11:36:20 PM  
Bravo Two:

Personally, I'd rather support businesses that favor people HERE than spending money that ultimate goes to support some family in China when people in my own country are starving.

Where do you find people in America who are starving? Or I should say starving against their will, because they can't get food? Most of our population is urban, most our urban areas have SNAP (formerly known as Food Stamps) offices, soup kitchens, food banks, even anarchists "illegally" feeding people for free on the street. Obesity is more of a problem than starvation. Except in a few situations where the person is physically unable to get to where the food is, whether by being locked in a closet or disabled with uncaring "caretakers," it's easy keep from starving. Your average homeless guy might sport a decent paunch.

This doesn't mean all the food you get is healthy, tasty or prepared right, some neighborhoods don't have grocery stores and charities have to do the best they can with what they can get, but unless you're unable to get to the food or have it brought to you, or just too damn arrogant to stand in line for it, you ain't gonna starve. This isn't some war-torn region in Africa you can't grow anything and whose warlords care more for their Mercedes and mercenaries than anything else: this is America, the land of caloric plenty, where you can see somebody who weighs 400# and be sure right off that s/he's poor as shiat. Steal a bolt-cutter and open up the dumpsters if you want free healthy vegetables: only the outer leaves of the cabbage are likely to be wilted, for example, and as for the dirt & germs well you're gonna farking boil it anyway right?

As far as I can see we've pretty much solved the hunger problem in America. We didn't eliminate hunger in the world by the year 2000, but we did turn ourselves into a nation of porkers. This is progress! USA! USA!
 
2013-06-14 11:41:57 PM  

marius2: obamadidcoke:

The Brits seem totally mystified about our flag fetish.

My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.

/I brought her to Wal-Mart once and she threw up in the parking lot.


I have an ex GF from Australia and it was much the same.

"What the fark mate? They afraid they will forget what country they live in? This is sick.. this is sick fetishism"

/And it was before 2001
 
2013-06-14 11:59:27 PM  
Meh. "I leave symbols to the symbol minded"
 
2013-06-15 12:08:13 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: Chagrin: It doesn't cause unemployment in the long term. In the long term those people that would have been in manufacturing jobs move to other professions: electronics, chemistry, computing, etc. Or putting that another way, if we protected our manufacturing jobs back in the 80's we wouldn't have the lead in computing that Intel, Apple, or Google gave us.

I don't see that connection. Would we have fewer doctors if we had a lot more manufacturing jobs? We have a large under class, people struggling to find middle class jobs and maybe a stable schedule with some job security. Giving those people jobs won't siphon workers from Google. Probably would also mean fewer people in prison.


Precisely. One of the reasons for our exploding prison population over the last 40 years is that dipshiats who were truly best suited to bolting part A to part B forever and ever no longer have that option. Instead, they have to snatch purses, steal cars, or peddle bags of crack or meth to get by.
 
2013-06-15 02:04:06 AM  

The One True TheDavid: Officially used US flags, including those of states, towns and counties, should be made here. As should military and police uniforms (including footwear), judges' robes and the gavels they bang with, etc. etc. Every American governmental agency should support American products and American labor.


Which means you are just supporting inefficient industries that are bound to fail sooner or later anyway. If you want to support American products, put leaders in to office that understand the importance of education and innovation.

You don't need low-end production like flags and textiles, that can be better done in cheaper countries. The problem is those cheaper countries will develop as well.  So the focus should be on keeping your edge, keep improving, and focusing on the high value added, high quality products instead of protecting doomed industries.
 
2013-06-15 02:12:13 AM  

forgotmydamnusername: DrewCurtisJr: Chagrin: It doesn't cause unemployment in the long term. In the long term those people that would have been in manufacturing jobs move to other professions: electronics, chemistry, computing, etc. Or putting that another way, if we protected our manufacturing jobs back in the 80's we wouldn't have the lead in computing that Intel, Apple, or Google gave us.

I don't see that connection. Would we have fewer doctors if we had a lot more manufacturing jobs? We have a large under class, people struggling to find middle class jobs and maybe a stable schedule with some job security. Giving those people jobs won't siphon workers from Google. Probably would also mean fewer people in prison.

Precisely. One of the reasons for our exploding prison population over the last 40 years is that dipshiats who were truly best suited to bolting part A to part B forever and ever no longer have that option. Instead, they have to snatch purses, steal cars, or peddle bags of crack or meth to get by.


That's a short/medium term problem, that is however been prolonged in the U.S. by the fact that the education systems sucks, there a weak social security system and generally weak central government which allows for little steering in the transition period, because that would be socialism of course.

If you don't do that, it simply means that a certain moment you'll have a large enough uneducated/poor/unemployed population to start cheap production again, which means that in a few decades or so the U.S. might be producing low added value products for the Chinese instead of the other way around.
 
2013-06-15 03:08:55 AM  

gadian: Now, you can't be biatching about government spending AND expect the government to pay American prices.


Actually that is the ideal for a lot of people.  Force the government to buy American made flags, point out how much more expensive American made flags are, create outrage at irresponsible government employees who are too stupid to get the best price on flags.

It's the Post Office dilemma on a smaller scale.
 
2013-06-15 03:10:23 AM  

IronTom: cuzsis: WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?

Yep.

 It's called paying for a "living wage" not supporting farking slavery.

/seems to be a difficult concept for some.

Plus American-made products are generally superior to that of other countries, at least where we still have an industry.


True.
 
2013-06-15 03:12:11 AM  

The One True TheDavid: Officially used US flags, including those of states, towns and counties, should be made here. As should military and police uniforms (including footwear), judges' robes and the gavels they bang with, etc. etc. Every American governmental agency should support American products and American labor.


So utter farkwits like you can turn right back around and complain that they are wasting money by not going with the low bid.  How convenient.
 
2013-06-15 04:52:56 AM  

Shadow Blasko: marius2: obamadidcoke:

The Brits seem totally mystified about our flag fetish.

My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.

/I brought her to Wal-Mart once and she threw up in the parking lot.

I have an ex GF from Australia and it was much the same.

"What the fark mate? They afraid they will forget what country they live in? This is sick.. this is sick fetishism"

/And it was before 2001


What's ago offensive about the flag though?
 
2013-06-15 04:55:48 AM  

Mellotiger: Shadow Blasko: marius2: obamadidcoke:

The Brits seem totally mystified about our flag fetish.

My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.

/I brought her to Wal-Mart once and she threw up in the parking lot.

I have an ex GF from Australia and it was much the same.

"What the fark mate? They afraid they will forget what country they live in? This is sick.. this is sick fetishism"

/And it was before 2001

What's ago offensive about the flag though?


So, not ago. must be bed time.
 
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