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(WTAM)   Should the U.S. government be forced to buy American-made American flags? Ab-so-damn-lutely   (wtam.com) divider line 151
    More: Obvious, American flags, Americans, U.S. Government, Flag Days, National Historic Landmark, American workers, United States Navy  
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4317 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jun 2013 at 6:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-14 07:10:03 PM  
red_dragon60:
/4th of July is my favorite holiday

"
The 4th of July" is not a holiday.

/ Independence Day
// Pet Peeve.
 
2013-06-14 07:10:43 PM  

FloydA: nekom: Here's a good question:  Who the hell cares?


1) Flag makers
2) People who live in communities where flag manufacturing plants are located and work in support industries
3) People who produce the material from which flags are made
4) People who live in the communities where those materials are produced and work in support industries
5) People who think "patriotism" should be more than just empty rhetoric and misspelled protest signs


So if the government buys more expensive flags, instead of the cheapest, what part of the budget gets cut to make up the difference?  Who has to get paid less so that US flag makers get this extra income?  Aren't the individuals and communities who have to take the cut important?  Or are products focused around symbolic "patriotism" and nationalism more deserving of wasteful spending?

Here's a better suggestion for issues such as this: The government should only buy more expensive products if the industry that produces that product is on the verge of disappearing domestically AND if having that industry be active domestically is considered to be in the nation's vital interests.
 
2013-06-14 07:12:14 PM  
No, they shouldn't be forced, but there should be a huge tariff on foreign made flags.

FloydA: Annin Flagmakers


Woo, only about 20 miles north of me in Coshocton, Ohio (and about the only business left in that town).

"Oldest and Largest Maker of Flags in the United States since 1847"
 
2013-06-14 07:12:48 PM  
Bravo Two:

A respectable response.
 
2013-06-14 07:13:52 PM  

obamadidcoke: Bravo Two: mr0x: <BLOCKQUOTE>Should the U.S. government be forced to buy American-made American flags? Ab-so-damn-lutely </BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they shouldn't be.

The whole country of origin thing was made up for tax purposes and now, we use it to judge quality of item and patriotism.

Give something to humans and they will try and find patterns in it and put emotional value to it.

You ask the government to buy "Made in US" flags, pretty soon it will now cost 10 times more and it will still be made in China but stamped made in the USA and smuggled here.

So, instead of supporting businesses here in the US, you'd rather just say "screw it" and go lowest dollar?

I know this is a hard thing to grasp, because "zomg more expensive", but have you stopped to consider that if the government buys the more expensive item made here in the US, that money goes to a company that employs workers here in the US, who then in turn spend those dollars on other goods and services and taxes here in the US? And that that money then flows back up the food chain to the government, who can then reinvest it into other USA-based ventures?

Dumping dollars into foreign goods and importing them is basically retarding our economy. Why? Well, think about it. The person who does a skilled job manufacturing product X makes more money because they have more expertise and specific knowledge than the person who does an unskilled job selling products. That's more money per household, more money spent by that household in the US, and more money that's retained in our economy.

Now, consider: I'm a US-based manufacturer of goods. I employ management and corporate staff, workers to make the goods, and spend money on services to deliver my goods to retail stores.

Those retail stores employ management, corporate staff, and retail workers, who sell my goods.

Those shipping companies employ the same, and are paid both to deliver the raw materials to me and to transport my finished goods.

We've j ...


I believe that selling US Goods to China while favoring US Goods in the US is better than selling US Goods to china in a few cases and turning around to buy most everything else from them.
 
2013-06-14 07:14:14 PM  
so now the Chinese currently making flags with 50% "american made materials"
will have to start making american flags with 100% "american made materials"

I feel so confused by this news article.
I don't think it's saying what it seems to think it's saying.
 
2013-06-14 07:14:25 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Officially used US flags, including those of states, towns and counties, should be made here. As should military and police uniforms (including footwear), judges' robes and the gavels they bang with, etc. etc. Every American governmental agency should support American products and American labor.



These are perfect examples of how we should be using prison labor. Fark having them make license plates or be telemarketers, have them make the products worn by the people who put them in prison. It would save a lot of money and the non prison industries could concentrate on making things for the rest of us.
 
2013-06-14 07:15:33 PM  
obamadidcoke:

The Brits seem totally mystified about our flag fetish.

My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.

/I brought her to Wal-Mart once and she threw up in the parking lot.
 
2013-06-14 07:15:54 PM  
When my kids grow up I hope to hell that they still have the opportunity to make a career out of sewing American flags.
 
2013-06-14 07:18:40 PM  
Pass a law that says they have to be american made, and what you'll most likely end up with is illegal aliens in a sweat shop sewing factory or something similar.  I like the idea, but I'm not convinced it would work the way people want.
 
2013-06-14 07:19:52 PM  

Slappajo: I don't know.  This is a pretty slippery slope.  The next thing you know there might be legislation requiring Americans to buy something specific...maybe something like health insurance.

I know it's a stretch, but it could happen.


To be fair, there is no where in the law that says it has to be American made insurance.

/I like my insurances artistically crafted by Tibetan children. The tiny hands and tears ensure me of high quality
 
2013-06-14 07:20:19 PM  
Why stop at flag makers? And I don't ask that in a sarcastic way, I'm okay with our government spending money inside its own borders.

I know there is already the Fly American Act which means gov't employees and contractors can't fly non-American carriers for business, and I'm okay with that too. Let the private market do what they want, but let's try to keep our money here, even if it costs us more up front.
 
2013-06-14 07:21:33 PM  

Rent Party: red_dragon60:
/4th of July is my favorite holiday

"The 4th of July" is not a holiday.

/ Independence Day
// Pet Peeve.


I stand corrected. I'll just USA! chant myself out of here.
 
2013-06-14 07:21:49 PM  
No.  Free market, biatches.
 
2013-06-14 07:23:33 PM  
You guys all realize that only 5% of American flags are foreign made, right?
 
2013-06-14 07:23:57 PM  
I don't think so. As another example: should the US armed forces be required to only purchase American-made weapons and vehicles? Unless I'm mistaken the answer is "hell no" so STFU about some stupid little flags, basically.
 
2013-06-14 07:24:58 PM  
marius2:
My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.

/I brought her to Wal-Mart once and she threw up in the parking lot.



Made her feel like she was in North Korea?  What a stupid statement. Then why did she come here in the first place?  No one forced her to come to the US.

I don't go to other countries and mention how stupid their patriotism or allegiance to the country is.
 
2013-06-14 07:26:09 PM  

Burr: FloydA: Annin Flagmakers

Woo, only about 20 miles north of me in Coshocton, Ohio (and about the only business left in that town).

"Oldest and Largest Maker of Flags in the United States since 1847"


So that is why Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown is so interested.
 
2013-06-14 07:26:48 PM  

Gig103: Why stop at flag makers? And I don't ask that in a sarcastic way, I'm okay with our government spending money inside its own borders.

I know there is already the Fly American Act which means gov't employees and contractors can't fly non-American carriers for business, and I'm okay with that too. Let the private market do what they want, but let's try to keep our money here, even if it costs us more up front.


Yep, i said that up-thread. I think the US Government should be required to buy US_made goods wherever possible.
 
2013-06-14 07:31:05 PM  

Jument: I don't think so. As another example: should the US armed forces be required to only purchase American-made weapons and vehicles? Unless I'm mistaken the answer is "hell no" so STFU about some stupid little flags, basically.


Uh, there's an uproar, usually from the right, every time the US Military doesn't buy US made stuff. And generally, they do try to buy US made whenever they can, which is almost always. There isn't a law requiring it, but such a law wouldn't really put much of a dent in our Military procurement.

So try again.
 
2013-06-14 07:34:11 PM  
SirEattonHogg:


Made her feel like she was in North Korea?  What a stupid statement. Then why did she come here in the first place?  No one forced her to come to the US.

Well the reference would be that people in communist run countries tend to heavily force worship of their country and its leaders.... but it's okay, I know it was much easier for you to just lash out.

darkroom.baltimoresun.com
 
2013-06-14 07:34:52 PM  

cptjeff: Jument: I don't think so. As another example: should the US armed forces be required to only purchase American-made weapons and vehicles? Unless I'm mistaken the answer is "hell no" so STFU about some stupid little flags, basically.

Uh, there's an uproar, usually from the right, every time the US Military doesn't buy US made stuff. And generally, they do try to buy US made whenever they can, which is almost always. There isn't a law requiring it, but such a law wouldn't really put much of a dent in our Military procurement.

So try again.


Buy America Act. there is already a law that requires it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act
 
2013-06-14 07:35:20 PM  
At what point did the flag become more important than the people that make up the nation?

This free market jazz can be taken too far and it already has. We have destroyed our ability to make anything except weapons and hamburgers. That's bad.
 
2013-06-14 07:38:44 PM  

Bravo Two: mr0x: <BLOCKQUOTE>Should the U.S. government be forced to buy American-made American flags? Ab-so-damn-lutely </BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they shouldn't be.

The whole country of origin thing was made up for tax purposes and now, we use it to judge quality of item and patriotism.

Give something to humans and they will try and find patterns in it and put emotional value to it.

You ask the government to buy "Made in US" flags, pretty soon it will now cost 10 times more and it will still be made in China but stamped made in the USA and smuggled here.

So, instead of supporting businesses here in the US, you'd rather just say "screw it" and go lowest dollar?

I know this is a hard thing to grasp, because "zomg more expensive", but have you stopped to consider that if the government buys the more expensive item made here in the US, that money goes to a company that employs workers here in the US, who then in turn spend those dollars on other goods and services and taxes here in the US? And that that money then flows back up the food chain to the government, who can then reinvest it into other USA-based ventures?

Dumping dollars into foreign goods and importing them is basically retarding our economy. Why? Well, think about it. The person who does a skilled job manufacturing product X makes more money because they have more expertise and specific knowledge than the person who does an unskilled job selling products. That's more money per household, more money spent by that household in the US, and more money that's retained in our economy.

Now, consider: I'm a US-based manufacturer of goods. I employ management and corporate staff, workers to make the goods, and spend money on services to deliver my goods to retail stores.

Those retail stores employ management, corporate staff, and retail workers, who sell my goods.

Those shipping companies employ the same, and are paid both to deliver the raw materials to me and to transport my finished goods.

We've just moved a ...


I believe the majority of economists would disagree with what you wrote, Bravo Two.  When someone in America buys foreign goods, the dollars they spend don't just disappear.  The foreign business that now holds those dollars can either spend those dollars on goods priced in dollars (namely American goods), or can invest those dollars in a dollar based economy (namely the US economy).  The trade deficit we have actually balances out, (and always has), if you include foreign investment.

You description of how buying American helps a community sounds great, but you left out the other half of the equation completely.  All of the people in your example who are now suddenly buying American are lowering their standard of living below where it would be otherwise by buying less efficiently produced, more expensive goods.  And if you spread that analysis across the whole economy, in the long term that loss of efficiency lowers the national standard of living as a whole.

Now, that being said, an argument can be made that when the global economy shifts fast enough, artificial trade barriers are sometimes useful to provide enough time for an affected local industry time to adapt or liquidate in a reasonable time frame, but simply saying "buy American", without taking all the costs to the economy into mind doesn't really make sense.
 
2013-06-14 07:39:47 PM  

Dear Jerk: At what point did the flag become more important than the people that make up the nation?

This free market jazz can be taken too far and it already has. We have destroyed our ability to make anything except weapons and hamburgers. That's bad.


I am normally a Libertarian but you make a good point here.
 
2013-06-14 07:40:42 PM  
marius2:
Well the reference would be that people in communist run countries tend to heavily force worship of their country and its leaders.... but it's okay, I know it was much easier for you to just lash out.


Pretty much every other country has its own mythology and its symbols of patriotism.

But yeah, pointing out the similarity between North Korea and the US because a number of Americans like to fly their respective flag from their backyard is such a deep intellectual argument/point.
 
2013-06-14 07:41:00 PM  

skinink: American made:
[content.wohoho.pl image 500x750]


The tools that formed it were probably milled in Germany or something.
 
2013-06-14 07:42:22 PM  
http://www.ruffinflagcompany.net/category_v3.aspx?categoryID=171

American made Confederate flags. No Chinese Rebel flags!
 
2013-06-14 07:45:40 PM  

marius2: My Ex-Fiancee was a New Zealander and she said it made her feel like she was in North Korea when she was here.


Lots of guys like the stupid girls.  Nothing wrong with that, if it's what you are into.
 
2013-06-14 07:45:58 PM  

WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?


Yep. Jesus let's at least get ONE thing in-house. I have no problem with this whatsoever, and 99% of the time, I think this nationalism and patriotism shiat is just people trying to keep up with the Jonses', with no idea what they are talking about, but government issue flags should have some kind of real national tie.
 
2013-06-14 07:53:13 PM  
Thread needs more of this.
cooldudestuff.com
cooldudestuff.com
i.istockimg.com
thisislavie.com
www.punjabigraphics.com
uberhumor.com
content.pyzam.com
 
2013-06-14 07:54:56 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?

Unions need the work.


So do the small children of the third world.
 
2013-06-14 07:58:05 PM  
I wonder what the Senator would say if the Government agree to this and then decided to buy their flags from a company that was not in the Senator's home state of Ohio?
 
2013-06-14 07:58:29 PM  
I would think that it would be more important for all government contract recipients and employees be American made.  That would be more beneficial to Americans and employ more Americans.
 
2013-06-14 07:59:10 PM  
The serious question is:  should Americans be forced to make American flags so that the government can be forced to buy them?
 
2013-06-14 08:02:01 PM  

whcrow: cptjeff: Jument: I don't think so. As another example: should the US armed forces be required to only purchase American-made weapons and vehicles? Unless I'm mistaken the answer is "hell no" so STFU about some stupid little flags, basically.

Uh, there's an uproar, usually from the right, every time the US Military doesn't buy US made stuff. And generally, they do try to buy US made whenever they can, which is almost always. There isn't a law requiring it, but such a law wouldn't really put much of a dent in our Military procurement.

So try again.

Buy America Act. there is already a law that requires it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_American_Act


It doesn't exactly require it (apparently) but I did not know that. I will STFU and GTFO now.
 
2013-06-14 08:02:25 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: FloydA: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Are there even any manufacturers left in the US?

Annin Flagmakers,  C.F. Flag,J.C. Schultz Enterprises, Inc. / The Flag Source,and Valley Forge Flag.

According to the Flag Manufacturers Association of America.

Thanks

/wasn't really serious, but, thanks


They highlighted one of them on the news this morning. I forget which one, but has been making US flags since the mid 1800's.
 
2013-06-14 08:02:25 PM  

Mikey1969: WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?

Yep. Jesus let's at least get ONE thing in-house. I have no problem with this whatsoever, and 99% of the time, I think this nationalism and patriotism shiat is just people trying to keep up with the Jonses', with no idea what they are talking about, but government issue flags should have some kind of real national tie.


Exactly, just like Air Force One shouldn't be an Airbus, and the Beast Shouldn't be a Lexus.
 
2013-06-14 08:02:44 PM  
How do you feel about burning Chinese-made American flags? Should we be outsourcing something that has a element of sacred nationalism?

My answer. Sure, if the true nature of America is profit.*

*It has been since 1869.

pss - see Mark Twain's epic half-page takedown of Jay Gould. Link
 
2013-06-14 08:04:25 PM  

Bravo Two: marius2: This is stupid. Why waste money buying flags anyways? Do we really need more reminders of what country we are in? If it's not marking a military base in a foreign country, then there is no point for it at all.

I'm so thankful for the hundreds of flags I see while driving through my town. "Damn, I thought I was in Canada, thank God for the reminder that I'm not! Phew, I better get my flag up soon before they think I'm a Commie!"

Or, you know, showing pride in the fact that you live in the US.


You can be just as proud without a flag.

/Just saying.
 
2013-06-14 08:07:46 PM  

FloydA: 1) Flag makers
2) People who live in communities where flag manufacturing plants are located and work in support industries
3) People who produce the material from which flags are made
4) People who live in the communities where those materials are produced and work in support industries
5) People who think "patriotism" should be more than just empty rhetoric and misspelled protest signs


So mostly people who don't live in the US.

You also forgot 6) People who confuse "patriotism" with "nationalism"
 
Rat
2013-06-14 08:07:57 PM  
Where else can you buy your USA flag, a TAMU flag, and a UT flag alongside a gay pride flag, and be more proud of your purchase!!!

©  http://www.dixieflag.com/about_us/
 
2013-06-14 08:09:15 PM  

Bravo Two: marius2: Bravo Two:

Or, you know, showing pride in the fact that you live in the US.

Why? What does it matter? Most people have no say in the country they live in (they were born there) why does it make it special? Patriotism (Nationalism) is silly, outdated, and was created to control the lower classes in revolts against the monarchies. What's the point of it today? "USA, USA, USA!" nice, wonderful, jingoism.

How many other countries do you go to that have their national flag flying in the front of many middle-class homes? It's kinda creepy to an extent. I also tend to notice the people that fly these flags also seem to be the ones that rant about the government the most.... that flag represents them too.

I just got back from Vancouver, BC. I saw a lot of Canadian flags and patriotic Canadian goods.  I've seen equal behavior in Ireland, and the UK to some extent.

Why does it matter? To you, it may not. You may see your country as just another plot of land, something to be ambivalent or even embarassed about.  I personally love my country, faults and all. I love the fact that I'm free to do things that others do not get to do. I love the fact that my family participated in the history of this country.  I'm proud of the way people respond to tragedies and come together. That's our country. I'm glad to live here. I have some pride in that.

So, you can believe that nationalism is outdated and silly. I happen to believe it's a valuable thing, especially economically, because it biases towards our own people, as it should. Buy american and help the economy. Buy American and support companies that charge more but sell better quality goods.  Buy American and make sure that your neighbor has a job, keeps the lights on, and can feed his family.

Personally, I'd rather support businesses that favor people HERE than spending money that ultimate goes to support some family in China when people in my own country are starving.


Bah.  Spread the money around and help unite the world as a single nation.
 
2013-06-14 08:12:06 PM  
Respect.
 
2013-06-14 08:14:32 PM  

positronica: but simply saying "buy American", without taking all the costs to the economy into mind doesn't really make sense.


False. People and money only exist in the US. All other countries, people, and financial transactions are just an illusion put there by the devil to test our faith.
 
2013-06-14 08:19:54 PM  
No.
 
2013-06-14 08:23:08 PM  

Bravo Two: Personally, I'd rather support businesses that favor people HERE than spending money that ultimate goes to support some family in China when people in my own country are starving.


Because there aren't starving people in China? Because the starving people in China aren't as deserving of your help? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If you said "I'd rather spend money here because I carefully choose my expenditures to ensure they increase food security and I cannot do that effectively when buying goods from overseas" or "China has inhumane business practices and spending with them will encourage further injustice" you might be on to something. But it's not at all clear to me how simply spending money locally leads to inherently better outcomes, even if you ignore the direct downside to the people who are not "here".
 
2013-06-14 08:25:31 PM  

WorldCitizen: So US taxpayers should be forced to pay higher prices for the same product?


Why do t we cut out the middle man and use US prison labor instead of the chineese prison labor that makes it now
 
2013-06-14 08:27:34 PM  

cardex: Why do t we cut out the middle man and use US prison labor instead of the chineese prison labor that makes it now


Prisoners make more per hour than a Chinese laborer.
 
2013-06-14 08:28:29 PM  

Rat: Where else can you buy your USA flag, a TAMU flag, and a UT flag alongside a gay pride flag, and be more proud of your purchase!!!

©  http://www.dixieflag.com/about_us/


Glad to see somebody remembered Dixie Flag Company! Took a tour of the place about a decade ago. The emphasis was definitely on producing high quality work, not cranking out product as quickly as possible. It was not so much a factory than it was a collection of craftspeople who really enjoyed what they were doing. Wish more companies like that existed.
 
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