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(National Review)   Libertarianism is just an ideal   (nationalreview.com) divider line 1480
    More: Followup, modern, communist state  
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12200 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jun 2013 at 11:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-15 12:08:54 PM
thelamplight.ca

NO MORE CAVE PAINTING AFTER THIS ONE?
 
2013-06-15 12:50:21 PM
i105.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-15 01:25:17 PM

FloydA: fknra: Am confused...

When did an ideal become something bad to have and strive for?

Is the idea that each person should have the right to make their own decisions and choices, unless they cause harm to others, a bad thing?


The thread is mostly dead, so I suppose I can be a little bit serious.  Ideals are not necessarily bad in their own right.  The problem with any political (or religious, or economic, or etc.) ideal arises from the fact that it is based on a desire for the world to be other than it is.  The libertarian ideal is predicated on the belief (first) that all humans are equally capable of taking care of their own interests, (second,) that all humans are capable of determining when they are causing harm to others (and third), that all humans are sufficiently compassionate that they would refrain from causing harm if they knew about the consequences of their actions.

The first assumption is contradicted by the evidence.  There are people who are simply not intellectually or physically capable of providing for themselves.  People with physical handicaps or severe injuries cannot "go it alone" and expect to survive. The third assumption is contradicted by the existence of sociopaths.  While rare, they do exist, and the libertarian ideal that people would avoid harming others by choice simply can't account for them.

The second assumption is the big one.  In a simple agrarian or hunter/gatherer society, an individual's actions typically have only local consequences, so we see the effects of our actions on our neighbors.  In a society like that, individuals might have a close enough approximation to "perfect knowledge" of the consequences of their actions to actually be able to make the right decision.  However, in an industrialized economy, that degree of knowledge is simply not possible.

An example I used last time the subject came up is the effects of logging on salmon fisheries.  Here in the Pacific Northwest, salmon spawn in small rivers, far inland ...


Blah blah blah blah
 
2013-06-15 01:33:57 PM

monty666: Blah blah blah blah


i105.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-15 01:37:41 PM
MAUG HIT MONTY IN HEAD WITH ROCK.

MONTY NOT MAKE ADEQUATE REBUTTAL.

PERHAPS HIT IN HEAD WITH ROCK MAKE MONTY SMARTER.

THEN MONTY MAKE ADEQUATE REBUTTAL.

/seriously? just "blah"?
 
2013-06-15 02:10:04 PM
MAUG CARVE FARK CAVENAME LIST FOR YUKS.

MAUG THINK SELF CRAZY. BUT THAT'S HOW MAUG ROLLS.

-------

Aarontology - OOK
Angry Drunk Bureaucrat - GROG
Grand_Moff_Joseph - UGG
Diogenes - CROD
WI241TH - TORG
bdub77 - BROK
BunkoSquad - TORP
what_now - OOG/SHOOG/SHOOB
kronicfeld - GROND
Jackson Herring - TRONK
vernonFL - VONK/VORG
clownyclownzomby - GORG
Obama's Reptiloid Master - THAG
RanDomino - MOOG
mark.jms - SLARG
Bloody William - THROG
verbaltoxin - DAG
johan heggs tiny man nipples - BRONT
cheeseaholic - CHOCK
buckler - GORK
Weigard - ZOK
God Is My Co-Pirate - ZARN
brap - GORK
gameshowhost - TONDA
sendtodave - DORG
SordidEuphemism - GRUNG
IdBeCrazyIf - TOK/GRUUNK
Spoon over Marin - SPPOK
qorkfiend - KORK
WTF Indeed - LOR
doc_roswell - DOC_ROSTHOG
Gosling - MOG
kregh99 - GROM
Cosmic_Music - COSARG
Wyalt Derp - STRUGG
mbillips - MOOK
nmrsnr - CHAG
AverageAmericanGuy - AAG
Z-clipped - ZORG
Truth's Urethra - SHMARG
tbaughm - YORG
heap - GACK
brnt00 - BRONT
Ed Grubermann - THAG
HeartBurnKid - CORG
A Dark Evil Omen - DRAK
Surly U. Jest - THARG
Fatty McFatcheeks - FROOG
RedThree - REDD
MountainClimber - ROCKCLIMBER
Paul Baumer - LOTHAR
MonoChango - CHANGO
RangerTaylor - RANG
megarian - MERG
lewismarktwo - UGG
Vodka Zombie - VARK
phaseolus - FAZ
germ78 - ZOOK?
DerAppie - URK
zulius - ZUZU
12monkeys - GLUNK
Gen. Patton Harvey Oswalt - GROG
xanadian - MUNG-MUNG
Harold_of_the_Rocks - ME HAVE CAVE NAME APPROPRIATE!
Burr - URG
Rabbitgod - URGGRA
germ78 - ZOOK
Commander Lysdexic - COMM
serial_crusher - GROK/SURK
Rabid Badger Beaver Weasel - RABB
CheatCommando - CHEAT
and Natasha - RURK
Slowdog - SLOG
WaitWhatWhy - UGH
Duke Phillips' Singing Bears - TROG
Zafler - ZAF
Hugh2d2 - UG
bigpete53 - ORRDO
Egalitarian - EGAL
Famous Thamas - GRUNCH
loki see loki do - LOKAR
PsiChick - EEA
StRalphTheLiar - BROG
Five Tails of Fury - THOG
redElfShotTheFood - RORG
rufus-t-firefly - OOG
WinoRhino - GORK
Twitch Boy - TONK
Ben Ghazi - BEN GAZE
mdeesnuts - MOOG
bigpete53 - GREK
FiFi Le Pew - POOG
timujin - TIMOOKJIN
iawai - NEEK
imashark - ZREK
diabloninja - OOK
Ego edo infantia cattus - VOG
Mercutio74 - MORC
cybrwzrd - GURCH
seventypercent - GROOD
Crotchrocket Slim - CROTCH
ArtosRC - TARSO
AlHarris31 - NOG
sewnandsilent - HONKE
outdoorsman_jph - GOONGA
logic523 - LOGIC
Lackofname - URG
ghare - OGG
Dellirium - TARNOCK
bglove25 - BONK
fifthhorseman - GRONK
ZeroCorpse - ZEROC
Supercampion - PODROCK?
DreamyAltarBoy - HNORG
Le Roi en Jaune - LORJ
The_Original_Roxtar - TOR
hubiestubert - HU-BE
radiofreewill - NIKTO
ItchyMcDoogle - ROG
PunGent - PUNG
LibertyHiller - LORG

/missed a few, maybe cuz buried in deep hole
 
2013-06-15 02:15:07 PM

Kittypie070: MAUG CARVE FARK CAVENAME LIST FOR YUKS.

MAUG THINK SELF CRAZY. BUT THAT'S HOW MAUG ROLLS.

-------

Aarontology - OOK
Angry Drunk Bureaucrat - GROG
Grand_Moff_Joseph - UGG
Diogenes - CROD
WI241TH - TORG
bdub77 - BROK
BunkoSquad - TORP
what_now - OOG/SHOOG/SHOOB
kronicfeld - GROND
Jackson Herring - TRONK
vernonFL - VONK/VORG
clownyclownzomby - GORG
Obama's Reptiloid Master - THAG
RanDomino - MOOG
mark.jms - SLARG
Bloody William - THROG
verbaltoxin - DAG
johan heggs tiny man nipples - BRONT
cheeseaholic - CHOCK
buckler - GORK
Weigard - ZOK
God Is My Co-Pirate - ZARN
brap - GORK
gameshowhost - TONDA
sendtodave - DORG
SordidEuphemism - GRUNG
IdBeCrazyIf - TOK/GRUUNK
Spoon over Marin - SPPOK
qorkfiend - KORK
WTF Indeed - LOR
doc_roswell - DOC_ROSTHOG
Gosling - MOG
kregh99 - GROM
Cosmic_Music - COSARG
Wyalt Derp - STRUGG
mbillips - MOOK
nmrsnr - CHAG
AverageAmericanGuy - AAG
Z-clipped - ZORG
Truth's Urethra - SHMARG
tbaughm - YORG
heap - GACK
brnt00 - BRONT
Ed Grubermann - THAG
HeartBurnKid - CORG
A Dark Evil Omen - DRAK
Surly U. Jest - THARG
Fatty McFatcheeks - FROOG
RedThree - REDD
MountainClimber - ROCKCLIMBER
Paul Baumer - LOTHAR
MonoChango - CHANGO
RangerTaylor - RANG
megarian - MERG
lewismarktwo - UGG
Vodka Zombie - VARK
phaseolus - FAZ
germ78 - ZOOK?
DerAppie - URK
zulius - ZUZU
12monkeys - GLUNK
Gen. Patton Harvey Oswalt - GROG
xanadian - MUNG-MUNG
Harold_of_the_Rocks - ME HAVE CAVE NAME APPROPRIATE!
Burr - URG
Rabbitgod - URGGRA
germ78 - ZOOK
Commander Lysdexic - COMM
serial_crusher - GROK/SURK
Rabid Badger Beaver Weasel - RABB
CheatCommando - CHEAT
and Natasha - RURK
Slowdog - SLOG
WaitWhatWhy - UGH
Duke Phillips' Singing Bears - TROG
Zafler - ZAF
Hugh2d2 - UG
bigpete53 - ORRDO
Egalitarian - EGAL
Famous Thamas - GRUNCH
loki see loki do - LOKAR
PsiChick - EEA
StRalphTheLiar - BROG
Five Tails of Fury - THOG
redElfShotTheFood - RORG
rufus-t-firefly - OOG
WinoRhino - GORK
Twitch Boy - TONK
Ben Ghazi - BEN GAZE
mdeesnuts - MOOG
bigpete53 - GREK
FiFi Le Pew - POOG
ti ...


GLOG LOOK LIST.

GLOG REALIZE CAN NO READ.

GLOG HIT MAUG ON HEAD WITH BIG CLUB. DRAG BY HAIR BACK TO CAVE.

"ENOUGH CAVE ETCHING FOR YOU, WOMAN. MAKE SANDWICH INSTEAD."
 
2013-06-15 02:37:23 PM
*headache!!*
 
2013-06-15 03:09:08 PM
One day you will all tell your grandchildren you were in this thread.

and they will know why civilisation died :)
 
2013-06-15 03:12:23 PM
MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.
 
2013-06-15 03:25:37 PM

Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.


HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?
 
2013-06-15 03:32:17 PM

DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?


ZAF SAY IS NOT PROBLEM CAN NOT FIX WITH BIG STICK AND GREY STICKY PELT
 
2013-06-15 03:36:30 PM
This just popped up in my profile:

i105.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-15 03:39:55 PM

Zafler: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?

ZAF SAY IS NOT PROBLEM CAN NOT FIX WITH BIG STICK AND GREY STICKY PELT


HNORG SAY BIGGER PROBLEM NEED BIGGER STICK

MAYBE USE ROCK
 
2013-06-15 04:19:44 PM

Cosmic_Music: One day you will all tell your grandchildren you were in this thread.

and they will know why civilisation died :)


BECAUSE WE AM PLAY GOD!

WE REACH TOO FAR!
 
2013-06-15 04:24:17 PM

hubiestubert: Cosmic_Music: One day you will all tell your grandchildren you were in this thread.

and they will know why civilisation died :)

BECAUSE WE AM PLAY GODSKY MAN!

WE REACH TOO FAR!


FTFY
 
2013-06-15 04:45:45 PM
 
2013-06-15 04:49:29 PM
ZLOK STILL SAY GOVERNMENT F*CKED UP. PENAL SYSTEM VIOLATE LIBERTY. NEEDS RESOLUTION. SOMEONE MUST CLIMB BIG NETS AND SAY SOMETHING. I DONT WANT TO. MAYBE HAVE TO. IT IN ZLOKS GENERAL INTEREST. ZLOK BREAK NO LAW EXCEPT WHO ZLOK AM. TREEFORE, GOVERNMENT DISCRIMINATES AGAINST ZLOKS SEXUAL ORIENTATION. ZLOK NO LIKE. THAT NOT WHAT JUSTICE SUPPOSED BE. IT WRONG. NEEDS TO PUT ARROW ON TARGET. PUT CAVEMEN WHO CAUSE ACTUAL ABUSE IN CAVE WITH TINY BARS. IF CAVEMEN NO LOVE OTHER CAVEMAN LOVE ANIMALS INSTEAD NO HURT NO NEGLECT THEN GOVERNMENT NO HURT CAVEMEN. CAVEMEN WHO HURT WHO NEGLECT WHO ABUSE, PUT IN CAVE WITH TINY BARS. IS ZLOCK WRONG?
 
2013-06-15 04:50:47 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Hey, can someone get us a caveman version of scumbag steve?


i1222.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-15 04:55:51 PM

DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?


STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.
 
2013-06-15 04:56:35 PM
PEDROOG NOT GET WHY FUNNY-TALKING CAVEMEN FROM NORTH CAN'T STOP SELING US CLUBS, BUT THEY KEEP BUYING US MEDICINE MEN WEEDS.
 
2013-06-15 04:58:00 PM

Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?

STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.


CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.
 
2013-06-15 06:00:20 PM
FFS
 
2013-06-15 06:12:15 PM

CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?

STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.

CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.


LISTEN TO ROCK!  ROCK MAKE SENSE!

www.hotflick.net

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."
 
2013-06-15 06:41:31 PM

HighOnCraic: CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?

STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.

CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.

LISTEN TO ROCK!  ROCK MAKE SENSE!

[www.hotflick.net image 640x266]

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."


You know I love you, right?
 
2013-06-15 09:15:39 PM

FloydA: HighOnCraic: CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.

HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?

STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.

CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.

LISTEN TO ROCK!  ROCK MAKE SENSE!

[www.hotflick.net image 640x266]

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."

You know I love you, right?


[hansoloabouttobefrozenincarbonite.jpg]  "I know."

/And thanks for the totalfark!  I'll be productive next month.
 
2013-06-15 09:55:00 PM
ROCK ON. ROCK OFF.
 
2013-06-15 10:00:38 PM

Jaicu: ROCK ON. ROCK OFF.


www.egotripland.com

ROCKWELL!
 
2013-06-15 10:31:54 PM

James F. Campbell: Also:


BUAAAHAHAAHAAHAHAA!!!  Best laugh all year!
 
2013-06-15 11:04:43 PM

m00: 1) 5) 7) Rand Paul is a Republican, not a Libertarian. I agree with ComaLite J's definition, and Rand Paul's policies contradict this.


Thanks!

cybrwzrd: I agree with you, except I do not think that objectivism is a pro corporatism philosophy. It has been hijacked tho by those type of people - Greenspan included.

http://youtu.be/CeTfUot51io?t=4m6s

This is a video of Rand clearly dismissing corporatism and cronyism.

I got attacked in this thread for saying that I agree with certain aspects of objectivism, even though I said that I am not an objectivist now, so I am sure I will be attacked for this as well.

Look, I am for universal health care and a strong social safety net. I don't think the strong have the right to trample the rights of the weak.

Most libertarians hate those things- but that is because they do not believe in equality. I believe in limited government still. So do most progressives. Government is not a tool for the strong to use to oppress the weak. It is a tool to make the weak equal to the strong. Equality does not exist without limiting the power of the majority or the powerful.


I'll check that video out when I get a chance. Thanks!

Ishkur: COMALite J: the whole concept of "States' Rights" is a false concept right from the get-go. States don't have Rights. Any Rights. Neither does the Federal Government. Only Natural Persons (individually or collectively as "the People") have, or can have, Rights!

No one has any Rights.

Rights do not exist. You can only do things so long as others let you.


The Declaration of Independence calls the existence of the Inherent ("endowed by their Creator") and Inalienable Rights of Personhood a "self-evident" "Truth." A self-evident truth is also known as an axiom. In any system of logic, there must be one or more axioms which are assumed to be true without proof, as self-evident truths, to be used as starting premises in subsequent chains or logical reasoning. The axioms themselves form the foundation of the system of logic.

I would hold that to be an American citizen and participate in its society and government, one should accept its axioms, otherwise one is rejecting the whole basis, the foundation, of the very existence of this nation, and may truly be happier elsewhere in a nation based on different axioms that one can accept.

Indeed, the "inherent and inalienable" part is part and parcel of the very definition of the term "Rights" as understood by Jefferson and other Founders and Framers. If someone gives them to you or allows you to exercise certain liberties, then they aren't Rights at all. They're Powers or Privileges. Persons and governments can have Powers and privileges (Tenth Amendment), but only Persons have, or can have, Rights (Ninth Amendment).
 
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