FloydA: fknra: Am confused...When did an ideal become something bad to have and strive for?Is the idea that each person should have the right to make their own decisions and choices, unless they cause harm to others, a bad thing?The thread is mostly dead, so I suppose I can be a little bit serious. Ideals are not necessarily bad in their own right. The problem with any political (or religious, or economic, or etc.) ideal arises from the fact that it is based on a desire for the world to be other than it is. The libertarian ideal is predicated on the belief (first) that all humans are equally capable of taking care of their own interests, (second,) that all humans are capable of determining when they are causing harm to others (and third), that all humans are sufficiently compassionate that they would refrain from causing harm if they knew about the consequences of their actions.The first assumption is contradicted by the evidence. There are people who are simply not intellectually or physically capable of providing for themselves. People with physical handicaps or severe injuries cannot "go it alone" and expect to survive. The third assumption is contradicted by the existence of sociopaths. While rare, they do exist, and the libertarian ideal that people would avoid harming others by choice simply can't account for them.The second assumption is the big one. In a simple agrarian or hunter/gatherer society, an individual's actions typically have only local consequences, so we see the effects of our actions on our neighbors. In a society like that, individuals might have a close enough approximation to "perfect knowledge" of the consequences of their actions to actually be able to make the right decision. However, in an industrialized economy, that degree of knowledge is simply not possible.An example I used last time the subject came up is the effects of logging on salmon fisheries. Here in the Pacific Northwest, salmon spawn in small rivers, far inland ...
monty666: Blah blah blah blah
Kittypie070: MAUG CARVE FARK CAVENAME LIST FOR YUKS.MAUG THINK SELF CRAZY. BUT THAT'S HOW MAUG ROLLS.-------Aarontology - OOKAngry Drunk Bureaucrat - GROGGrand_Moff_Joseph - UGGDiogenes - CRODWI241TH - TORGbdub77 - BROKBunkoSquad - TORPwhat_now - OOG/SHOOG/SHOOBkronicfeld - GRONDJackson Herring - TRONKvernonFL - VONK/VORGclownyclownzomby - GORGObama's Reptiloid Master - THAGRanDomino - MOOGmark.jms - SLARGBloody William - THROGverbaltoxin - DAGjohan heggs tiny man nipples - BRONTcheeseaholic - CHOCKbuckler - GORKWeigard - ZOKGod Is My Co-Pirate - ZARNbrap - GORKgameshowhost - TONDAsendtodave - DORGSordidEuphemism - GRUNGIdBeCrazyIf - TOK/GRUUNKSpoon over Marin - SPPOKqorkfiend - KORKWTF Indeed - LORdoc_roswell - DOC_ROSTHOGGosling - MOGkregh99 - GROMCosmic_Music - COSARGWyalt Derp - STRUGGmbillips - MOOKnmrsnr - CHAGAverageAmericanGuy - AAGZ-clipped - ZORGTruth's Urethra - SHMARGtbaughm - YORGheap - GACKbrnt00 - BRONTEd Grubermann - THAGHeartBurnKid - CORGA Dark Evil Omen - DRAKSurly U. Jest - THARGFatty McFatcheeks - FROOGRedThree - REDDMountainClimber - ROCKCLIMBERPaul Baumer - LOTHARMonoChango - CHANGORangerTaylor - RANGmegarian - MERGlewismarktwo - UGGVodka Zombie - VARKphaseolus - FAZgerm78 - ZOOK?DerAppie - URKzulius - ZUZU12monkeys - GLUNKGen. Patton Harvey Oswalt - GROGxanadian - MUNG-MUNGHarold_of_the_Rocks - ME HAVE CAVE NAME APPROPRIATE!Burr - URGRabbitgod - URGGRAgerm78 - ZOOKCommander Lysdexic - COMMserial_crusher - GROK/SURKRabid Badger Beaver Weasel - RABBCheatCommando - CHEATand Natasha - RURKSlowdog - SLOGWaitWhatWhy - UGHDuke Phillips' Singing Bears - TROGZafler - ZAFHugh2d2 - UGbigpete53 - ORRDOEgalitarian - EGALFamous Thamas - GRUNCHloki see loki do - LOKARPsiChick - EEAStRalphTheLiar - BROGFive Tails of Fury - THOGredElfShotTheFood - RORGrufus-t-firefly - OOGWinoRhino - GORKTwitch Boy - TONKBen Ghazi - BEN GAZEmdeesnuts - MOOGbigpete53 - GREKFiFi Le Pew - POOGti ...
Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.
DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?
Zafler: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?ZAF SAY IS NOT PROBLEM CAN NOT FIX WITH BIG STICK AND GREY STICKY PELT
Cosmic_Music: One day you will all tell your grandchildren you were in this thread.and they will know why civilisation died :)
hubiestubert: Cosmic_Music: One day you will all tell your grandchildren you were in this thread.and they will know why civilisation died :)BECAUSE WE AM PLAY GODSKY MAN!WE REACH TOO FAR!
Grand_Moff_Joseph: Hey, can someone get us a caveman version of scumbag steve?
Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.
CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.
HighOnCraic: CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.LISTEN TO ROCK! ROCK MAKE SENSE![www.hotflick.net image 640x266]"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."
FloydA: HighOnCraic: CygnusDarius: Virtuoso80: DreamyAltarBoy: Virtuoso80: MY CAPS KEY IS BROKEN.HAVE YOU TRIED POKING WITH STICK?STICK IN USE BEATING DEAD HORSE.CAN'T STAND UP FROM ROCK. ROCK HAS PEDROOG'S STONES.LISTEN TO ROCK! ROCK MAKE SENSE![www.hotflick.net image 640x266]"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."You know I love you, right?
Jaicu: ROCK ON. ROCK OFF.
James F. Campbell: Also:
m00: 1) 5) 7) Rand Paul is a Republican, not a Libertarian. I agree with ComaLite J's definition, and Rand Paul's policies contradict this.
cybrwzrd: I agree with you, except I do not think that objectivism is a pro corporatism philosophy. It has been hijacked tho by those type of people - Greenspan included.http://youtu.be/CeTfUot51io?t=4m6sThis is a video of Rand clearly dismissing corporatism and cronyism.I got attacked in this thread for saying that I agree with certain aspects of objectivism, even though I said that I am not an objectivist now, so I am sure I will be attacked for this as well.Look, I am for universal health care and a strong social safety net. I don't think the strong have the right to trample the rights of the weak.Most libertarians hate those things- but that is because they do not believe in equality. I believe in limited government still. So do most progressives. Government is not a tool for the strong to use to oppress the weak. It is a tool to make the weak equal to the strong. Equality does not exist without limiting the power of the majority or the powerful.
Ishkur: COMALite J: the whole concept of "States' Rights" is a false concept right from the get-go. States don't have Rights. Any Rights. Neither does the Federal Government. Only Natural Persons (individually or collectively as "the People") have, or can have, Rights!No one has any Rights.Rights do not exist. You can only do things so long as others let you.
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