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(Thrillbent)   A 'Man Of Steel' review from Mark Waid, a guy who knows a little bit about Superman   (thrillbent.com) divider line 36
    More: Interesting, Mark Waid, Man of Steel, Superman, Zod, Brandon Routh, Jor-El, Infinite Crisis, secret identity  
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9939 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Jun 2013 at 8:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-14 01:23:56 PM  
2 votes:
These complaints boil down to irrational idealism.

Spoilers:


Superman was begging and pleading with Zod to stop what he was doing. Multiple times he screamed for him to stop. Zod was self-destructive. He didn't care if he died. Zod's home planet, his reason for existing, was completely wiped out by the child of one if its own citizens.Zod was willing to destroy an entire planet to get revenge against Superman for that act, and he was going to start by incinerating an entire family. When Superman takes the only solution available to him to stop imminent death, he is visibly emotionally distressed. He was just forced into murdering the only known survivor of his home planet, the only other person of his species, and he sells that distress perfectly. Even Lois, having seen what he just did, comforted him, knowing he was forced to do something that goes against everything he is. The emotion was raw, it was brilliantly acted, and it humanized Superman in a way I didn't expect from the film.

If you can watch that scene and say "they've thrown away everything the character stands for" then it's easy for people to say you have unrealistic expectations for a Superman film.
2013-06-14 09:38:44 AM  
2 votes:

p the boiler: who would you rather have - Bankers and Lawyers? Salespeople? Telemarketers? Politicians? On the scale of bad people we are nowhere near the top.


It's definitely just my opinion, but bankers and lawyers do (presumably) provide a service that benefits people: they help you take care of your money or defend yourself in court. Marketing has no real service it provides to humanity. And politicians are only as bad as the morons that elect them, they ideally represent your interests in government. Salespeople and telemarketers are still essentially marketers/advertisers, so they're not really different.
2013-06-14 09:34:54 AM  
2 votes:

Pilikia: Mark Waid does not know a lot about Superman. Mark Waid knows a lot about what he thinks Superman should be (insert stop liking things I don't like image here). And his navel-gazing opinioneering aside, the man doesn't know the first thing about writing a coherent movie review.


Yeah, the guy who wrote Kingdom Come and knows comic book history like the back of his hand knows NOTHING about Superman.
2013-06-14 09:10:10 AM  
2 votes:
I can buy Waid's point of view here. But MAYBE since this is a novice Superman, we're seeing the reasons for the "Superman will not kill" creed, and MAYBE we're seeing the failed experience that drives Superman to be so much more protective of civilians in the future.
2013-06-15 07:38:07 AM  
1 votes:

Alphax: A lot of this thread sounds like 'they changed something, and I don't like it, so this is the worst move EVAR!!'.  And I'm thinking, 'isn't this just like the Star Trek Into Darkness threads a few weeks back?'


Having liked both the Man of Steel and the new Trek movies, I see it as the two sides of the same coin.  While MoS downplayed most of the usual traits that made Superman (Boy Scout like adherence to an unshakable moral code) in order for him to develop into it later, the new Trek movies amplified everyone's qualities.  Bones is cranky and fed up ALL the time, Kirk is even more of a snarky, self confident horn dog, Uhura is even more competent if not slightly type A, Spock tries even harder to be super-logical and when he fails goes even father off the emotional scale...  They all got boiled down to their essentials, and now they are concentrated traits of what made them so memorable in the first place.  

Either way, I feel like it worked, even if I had to think about it for a bit later.
2013-06-15 01:12:30 AM  
1 votes:

REO-Weedwagon: I see Warner Brothers is launching a new marketing campaign today saying the new Superman movie is really about Christianity, and pretty much if you love Jesus, then you should definitely bring out the whole family to see the movie. Actually, organize the church youth group to come see it as well, you know, for Jesus. They currently have the "story" plastered all over Fox News and other various media outlets that attract and instruct the rubes.

"By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no farkin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil f*ckin' presence."
[img397.imageshack.us image 230x229]


I'd rather have all the cynical nihilist shiatheads who think like Bill Hicks die a horrible death.
2013-06-15 01:04:58 AM  
1 votes:
I tried to watch the Donner flicks recently and they have NOT aged well. You can watch the first Star Wars and it feels the same, it feels like it could be made today. The Donner Superman flicks are like Star Trek: The Motion Picture. They exist in a time and place and it shows.
2013-06-15 12:33:56 AM  
1 votes:
Couple of things:

1) I feel like they're thinking long-term here.  When he killed Zod and then let out that long howl, I was hit with the realization that 'this' is why he makes that decision to live and fight and protect without killing.  His own version of 'Never Again.'

2) The damage inflicted on both Smallville and Metropolis hit me as being relevant to the long-term story of this world.  In the world of the Avengers, after Thor shows up, it changes everything for that world.  In this world, the aftermath of the alien invasion is going to change 'everything' and I sincerely think that this story is setting up all the future movies to come.

For example, Superman's arrival could trigger Wonder Woman's arrival in the world of man, and perhaps coax Arthur up from his underwater kingdom.

I didn't really care for the violence of the movie, but I sincerely believe it was done so for a reason pertinent to the long-term story.
2013-06-14 06:02:37 PM  
1 votes:
*SPOILERS*

Thematically, I had no problem with Superman killing Zod at the end or the "disaster porn" because of just how much world-building is done through that.  The Kryptonians just about laid waste to Metropolis and Superman has shown that he is not above killing (to the casual observer).  This gives reason for the military and Lexcorp to seek to find methods to take Superman down in future movies because, as it is even said, Supes led the Kyrptonians there.  This also gives Superman cause to not wish to kill ever again.  He has now felt what it is like, it is not existential anymore and it is in the back of his head for all future battles and something that Lex can take full advantage of.  I thought it was a good move when you consider continuity that they want to be set up.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Lex is going to make his big battlesuit out of the Kryptonian armor?  It seemed way too similar in look.
2013-06-14 05:08:01 PM  
1 votes:
Spoilers -

Things I loved:

Lois tracking Clark down and no big "secret identity" crap. "Hi, I'm Lois, you're Clark. You're an alien and I'm cool with that."

Lois not being a worthless twat. Character had balls and wasn't damsel in distress at all (and falling through atmosphere burning up warrants screams btw).

Ma and pa kent. Costner was great.

SuperMAN. He's 33, he's a man.
2013-06-14 04:16:55 PM  
1 votes:

secularsage: ****SPOILERS FROM REVIEW*****


mitEj: I like Mark Waid but he is wrong. Superman has killed before and i am sure he will again but he does not take it lightly.

The movie was damn good. Go see it

2013-06-14 04:01:38 PM  
1 votes:

Nana's Vibrator: Alphax: Granted, Amy Adams doesn't look much like Margo Kidder, so I had some trouble buying her as Lois. On the other hand, she was a better reporter and detective, tracking down Clark at the Kent farm early in the movie.

When I see it, I think I'll be more distracted that Zod isn't played by Terance Stamp than with a non Margo Kidder looking Amy Adams.


Eh, this Zod is a more complex, better written character. He's a patriot, the defender of the people of Krypton. But he's willing to exterminate humanity in order to bring back his people.
2013-06-14 03:50:23 PM  
1 votes:
Jon Hamm should be Lex Luthor. Between having worked with Snyder in Sucker Punch plus his funny or die sketch:  http://t.co/Dg2bESN3Fn  plus his Don Draper character, he has everything to make a great Lex, heck, even the alliteration.
2013-06-14 03:34:36 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Dimensio: imashark: IdBeCrazyIf: Hebalo: Yes, yes it does. There's also a Lexcorp truck visible.

God you guys got better eyes than I do

Is Lex in this movie? I need to know. Because someone needs to do Lex Luthor some freaking justice.

One of the greatest villains of all time (even more malevolent, I'd argue, than the Joker) who's best portrayal on film has been a used car salesman who is trying to get into real estate.

Lex Luthor is not in Man of Steel.

Kevin Spacey could potentially serve as a good Lex Luthor. Unfortunately, his casting in Superman Returns will likely eliminate him as an option in any Man of Steel sequel, even though he did not play Lex Luthor in Superman Returns.

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 299x400]

Take Clancy Brown, shave his head and beard. Voila.


He definitely has the voice for it.

/heh
2013-06-14 02:23:01 PM  
1 votes:
I got back from seeing it 20 minutes ago. Excellent movie all around.
2013-06-14 01:34:54 PM  
1 votes:
The Flash: So you're not a Boy Scout after all.
Superman:  Never made it past my first merit badge.

Having Superman struggle with crossing "the line" isn't exactly unheard of.  The Justice League animated series really hammered on this, to the point where Batman has to stop him from killing Darkseid.  So, if the idea of him making the "hard choice" is the biggest complaint, people are looking at the character through a pretty narrow lense.
2013-06-14 01:19:33 PM  
1 votes:

un4gvn666: I was going to post something similar. Also, despite the criticisms of the ending "not being in line with his character", which I strongly disagree with based on watching the damn scene itself, no one has been able to suggest an ending to that fight that wouldn't be akin to wiping your ass with a film strip.


To elaborate on my previous suggestion: Superman has been on Earth for more than 20 years, absorbing yellow sunlight the whole time, but also learning to limit himself so as not to accidentally destroy everything he comes in contact with. Zod has just arrived on Earth, has only just gained his powers, and started learning how to handle them. Heck, they even address this in the movie.

It's again part of the canon that Superman's power levels grow slowly as he gets older and absorbs more solar energy. For example, in Kingdom Come Luthor mentions that Kryptonite doesn't affect Superman the way it used to because of the decades he's spent under yellow sunlight growing stronger. It is perfectly within canon to presume that 2 decades of extra yellow sunlight exposure would give Superman a real edge over Zod who had newly arrived on Earth.

So show Superman get desperate and cut loose with his full strength, show Zod having a "holy shiat I'm so farked!" moment when he realizes that Superman has been holding back, and then show Superman beat the everliving daylights out of Zod, leaving him a beaten wreck despite his Kryptonian powers. Ta da, satisfying resolution, climatic battle, crowning moment of awesome, and Superman doesn't kill and gets to profess loyalty to humanity by turning over Zod to them for punishment / execution.

I repeat, this is all a plot device. The decision to change the character was deliberate and not needed, and that is why Waid is upset about it, and I agree with his criticisms.
2013-06-14 12:47:20 PM  
1 votes:

give me doughnuts: In "Man of Steel", what other recourse does Superman have? Given only the elements presented in the movie, how is he to contain Zod & Company?


In that context? Beat Zod into unconsciousness, imprison him in total darkness (no sunlight to recharge Zod) and keep beating on him for a while to drain his powers, then let the US government and legal system make the call about execution vs. imprisonment. Granted that is a much less cinematically appealing and dramatic resolution, but it's far more in keeping with how Superman would do things according to existing canon. Take note that in "All-Star Superman", Luthor was sentenced to execution, and Superman was fine with that because it was the verdict of the authorized legal system.
2013-06-14 11:13:12 AM  
1 votes:

burndtdan: If Superman can save the day and still have time to make sure no one is hurt in the process, the threat wasn't that grave.  We've had enough films about him foiling real estate schemes or overcoming his inner-struggle.  This is Superman in a real outer-struggle, which if I"m not mistaken is something a lot of people have been asking to see in the movies.


Abso-damn-lutely. Which is why the reviewers crying about the movie aren't worth shiat. They wanted more of the same emo-Superman that we saw in Superman Returns, when everyone else is already sick of that shiat. You get the feeling they would have loved the movie if it just had a scene of Superman stopping mid-fight scene to shed a single tear for the lives lost during a farking ALIEN INVASION OF EARTH by a RUTHLESS MILITARY DICTATOR.
2013-06-14 11:03:59 AM  
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: I really liked it. But that review did voice what was bothering me about it. Superman wasn't going out of his way to protect anyone or move fights out of populated areas. While it was mostly just an excuse for destroying more skyscrapers, it did seem wrong.

Overall, though I did really love it. It really honed in on the alien/sci-go aspect of it. And it was really entertaining.


That actually makes me want to see the movie more, especially considering this sentence: "See, everyone else in Zod's army has been beaten and banished, but General Zod lives on and so, of course, he and Superman duke it out in what, to everyone's credit,  is the very best super-hero fight I've ever seen, just a marvel of spectacle."

Not so much for the disaster porn element, but for the fact that this is actually Superman in a super hero fight.  A real, actual challenge.  A real existential threat.  Something that might actually be such a threat to either himself, or the world (I don't know, haven't seen it) that he doesn't have the leisure of worrying at every turn about collateral damage.

If Superman can save the day and still have time to make sure no one is hurt in the process, the threat wasn't that grave.  We've had enough films about him foiling real estate schemes or overcoming his inner-struggle.  This is Superman in a real outer-struggle, which if I"m not mistaken is something a lot of people have been asking to see in the movies.
2013-06-14 10:45:26 AM  
1 votes:

Rwa2play: From Waid's review, I'm more annoyed with him trying to destroy a giant machine in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to destroy same giant machine wrecking Metropolis.


1.- Nobody could go to the other side of the world as fast as Superman, so it was a no-brainer he took the farther one.

2.- Nobody would have done anything to that thing except Superman. So anyone going there would have been slaughtered.

3.- If Superman had stayed in Metropolis he wouldn't have done anything since all the Kryptonians would jump him anyway.

IdBeCrazyIf: There is a reason behind it, Waid missed it

Seen it twice now and even I missed it the first time


What is the reason you proclaim?
2013-06-14 10:29:10 AM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?


So? That was one writer's take for one particular story - the overwhelming majority of Superman stories gives him the "does not kill" character trait. Boiled down, Supes wants to avoid any intentional or accidental death and is willing to sacrifice himself to reach that end because he believes he isn't more valuable than everyone else. He's the guy who instinctually steps in between danger and the victim - he's just lucky enough to be nigh invincible. Avoiding others dying is priority number one for Supes - thus having him kill is extremely out of character.
2013-06-14 10:24:52 AM  
1 votes:

thecpt: PsyLord: 58%?  Wow, that's not good.

Could be. Rt is far from perfect


I saw it last night.  It wasn't a perfect movie, but easily better than Superman Returns (RT 75%, wt Fark?!?)

The problem here is that expectations are higher.  There was a lot of good things, but the middle sagged quite a bit.  But we did actually get to see what happens when Kryptonians fight on our planet. That alone was worth price of admission.   And thankfully, no "real estate Lex".
2013-06-14 10:16:57 AM  
1 votes:

un4gvn666: Exactly. That's why I went to the theaters for the first time in about 6 months to watch it at midnight yesterday. And I would have done that regardless of whatever silly bullshiat was posted by the snobs over at RT. Thankfully, the movie was incredible. Easily one of the top 5 superhero movies ever made.


I'd put it up there easily with Dark Knight

I really am flabergasted at the hate this movie is generating, it's like people who biatch about flying. You're just trying to find a reason to hate something.
2013-06-14 10:05:59 AM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: And while I respect Waid, I agree with another FARKer that he's too navelgazing about what Superman is. Plus it's not as if Superman hadn't done in the Donner movies what he did here. Except he did it in a more sadistic way and with ZERO emotional development and feeback:


Don't forget the follow up in the third where he loses his power, gets beaten up, gets his power and then GOES BACK to kick that same guys ass

Superman in this movie is ten times more empathetic than the dick in the originals

Dimensio: Which actually makes the comic incarnation's killing worse, now that I consider the matter.


Exactly
2013-06-14 10:04:20 AM  
1 votes:

Electric_Banana: The tone reminds me of Batman Begins and the action reminds me of Transformers.  The parts with Ma and Pa Kent actually looked pretty good.


They already made a movie for you, filled with complex character interaction and emotional unrest. It was called Superman Returns.

And what a surprise, critics loved it (75% "fresh" rating) while everyone else thought it was crap.

Electric_Banana: But I thought the whole Deadliest Catch: Superman bit looked pretty silly.


That is literally less than 5 minutes of the whole film.
2013-06-14 10:00:44 AM  
1 votes:
I liked his review and it's one of few negative ones who make sense. Seriously, RT is full of idiotic reviews. Especially Rex Reeds...

They wanted Superman Returns II.

We got Holy shiatballs: The Origin.

And while I respect Waid, I agree with another FARKer that he's too navelgazing about what Superman is. Plus it's not as if Superman hadn't done in the Donner movies what he did here. Except he did it in a more sadistic way and with ZERO emotional development and feeback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0 (Don't watch the video if you don't want spoilers)
2013-06-14 09:40:15 AM  
1 votes:

Hebalo: It was great. I'm confused by the negative reactions. It's everything you want out of a Superman film.


The more I read the reviews, the more I think everyone wanted Superman Returns to be this film, and they wanted this film to be Superman Returns, and they're bothered enough to let you know about it by tanking the reviews for this film. And I think that's total bullshiat. I mean, complaining that it's too "sci-fi" and not enough "superhero" doesn't even make any farking sense.
2013-06-14 09:36:44 AM  
1 votes:
It was great. I'm confused by the negative reactions. It's everything you want out of a Superman film.
2013-06-14 09:30:31 AM  
1 votes:
Mark Waid does not know a lot about Superman. Mark Waid knows a lot about what he thinks Superman should be (insert stop liking things I don't like image here). And his navel-gazing opinioneering aside, the man doesn't know the first thing about writing a coherent movie review.
2013-06-14 09:27:37 AM  
1 votes:
I saw this last night at a Prescreening and I loved it. It is a Superman movie. He actually gets to show off how powerful he really is.  How badass he can be. Yes, it is a "Batman Begins" of the Superman films but it is very much worth it.

The only issue, more of a pet peeve, is that there is no Jimmy Olson but a Jamie Olson. I do hate it when Hollywood has to make a change like that. Though in this film, it isn't that big a deal so I did not mind much.
2013-06-14 09:25:03 AM  
1 votes:
I genuinely enjoyed it last night. But then, I've had enough with complex character development and emotional dynamics in Superman stories. I just wanted to see him have an epic battle with some superpowered aliens, and in that respect, the movie absolutely owned.

My only regret was the only midnight showing they had was in 3D. I might have to watch it again without that.
2013-06-14 09:23:21 AM  
1 votes:
World War Z is rated at 80% and Superman: MOS at 58%.  Did I wake up in Bizarro Earth again?
2013-06-14 09:17:23 AM  
1 votes:
I see Warner Brothers is launching a new marketing campaign today saying the new Superman movie is really about Christianity, and pretty much if you love Jesus, then you should definitely bring out the whole family to see the movie. Actually, organize the church youth group to come see it as well, you know, for Jesus. They currently have the "story" plastered all over Fox News and other various media outlets that attract and instruct the rubes.

"By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no farkin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil f*ckin' presence."
img397.imageshack.us
2013-06-14 09:04:10 AM  
1 votes:
Just reading that review made me sad.
2013-06-14 09:01:39 AM  
1 votes:
58%?  Wow, that's not good.
 
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