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(Thrillbent)   A 'Man Of Steel' review from Mark Waid, a guy who knows a little bit about Superman   (thrillbent.com) divider line 373
    More: Interesting, Mark Waid, Man of Steel, Superman, Zod, Brandon Routh, Jor-El, Infinite Crisis, secret identity  
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9939 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Jun 2013 at 8:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-14 01:04:28 PM  

Boojum2k: Most of what was left of Metropolis was lost trying to "beat Zod into unconsciousness." It hadn't worked yet. But good job condemning that family to die so Zod could live.

Oh, and after Zod is somehow brought through a trial and conviction, with the inevitable death sentence applied, who has to kill him in cold blood then? After the destruction of Metropolis, nobody on Earth will want Zod held in some prison trying to escape and eventually succeeding.


Which was another of Waid's criticisms. Why didn't Superman take the fight to somewhere where there were less people around?

And again, Superman accepts executions when it is the duly constituted legal authority doing the executing, and the system of justice involved is not corrupt. This is an established part of the character canon.

I will note however that I can't completely blame Man of Steel for this diversion from the character canon. It had already occurred in the post-Flashpoint comics.
 
2013-06-14 01:05:07 PM  
Gonna watch it with some friends tonight, so I read his spoiler free review. Loved Kingdom Come and Birthright and always thought that Waid was one of the writers that get Superman, so I wouldn't deny that the review made me sorta nervous.

I honestly gonna watch the movie with an open mind, but I just expect ONE thing from this movie...

That they understand that Superman is not Batman and cannot be teated the same way as Batman.

/Big Superman Fan...
//For what is worth, I thought that Green Lantern was OK...
 
2013-06-14 01:05:14 PM  

KiltedBastich: And yet he can manage to snap his neck


Because Zod is concentrating on killing as many humans as possible. So continue beating on Zod and letting him kill people and keep beating on him and letting him kill more people, because after all, those people will be perfectly content knowing Superman didn't kill Zod to save them.

Zod is Doomsday with intelligence, and utterly shattered by the loss of his Krypton. He was basically committing suicide by Superman, and he was going to slaughter billions given the chance.
 
2013-06-14 01:07:26 PM  

Rwa2play: Which is why I stated this would've been a better story if it were about Wonder Woman.


Look no offense, as you clearly seem interested in the character and the movie, but go see the damn thing before you make these sweeping (and in my opinion, totally wrong) statements.
 
2013-06-14 01:08:20 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: How about Supes takes him into a Red Sun generating Chamber ala Superman: Armageddon from the DC Animated universe. Superman dies, Lex clones him and to keep him in line, he kicks his ass repeatedly in a room generating Red Sun energy, effecting stripping Superman of his powers.... oh, that's the same old trick they've used in every other Superman movie.

There in lies my issue with any and all Superman movies. He is a walking, talking god amongst men. He's the strongest man in the galaxy (according to DC he can benchpress the moon!!), he's the fastest man in the galaxy (he is faster than the Flash, believe it or not), he's the smartest man in the galaxy (his super intellect is like his laser eyes or freezing breath, he simply has to activate it)... simply told, he is more powerful than everyone else in the Justice League, and could take them all on in a fight and whoop them. So, how exactly do you write a movie where he can thwart anything effortlessly. In fact it has to be effortless for if he puts any effort into it, he'll utterly atomize whatever he's going up against.

Superman's power level makes it impossible to create a proper foe AND keep human casualties down. In order to keep the audience interested in the film, it needs to be in recognizable locales, and anytime Superman is letting lose, it's going to destroy everything around him. Hell, the shockwave from a full force punch would be akin to a nuclear warhead erupting because of it's speed and force.



Has anybody ever wondered about the F = ma in comics?

Superman or anyone else could be hard as diamond and impervious to damage, but unless they also move at hundreds of miles an hour when 'punching' something, the force generated would never equal what we see in films or comics.  It would hurt a lot to be sure and could break down objects, but to generate as much force as is shown sometimes, they would either have to be hyper-dense mass or moving at supersonic speeds.  I dunno, that bit always irks me.  Like when super strong folks pick up something really heavy off to the side of their center of mass and don't lift themselves into the air.

/yes I know it's comics
 
2013-06-14 01:08:35 PM  

Boojum2k: KiltedBastich: And yet he can manage to snap his neck

Because Zod is concentrating on killing as many humans as possible. So continue beating on Zod and letting him kill people and keep beating on him and letting him kill more people, because after all, those people will be perfectly content knowing Superman didn't kill Zod to save them.

Zod is Doomsday with intelligence, and utterly shattered by the loss of his Krypton. He was basically committing suicide by Superman, and he was going to slaughter billions given the chance.


So, they made him Nero from Star Trek?
 
2013-06-14 01:08:44 PM  

Boojum2k: KiltedBastich: And yet he can manage to snap his neck

Because Zod is concentrating on killing as many humans as possible. So continue beating on Zod and letting him kill people and keep beating on him and letting him kill more people, because after all, those people will be perfectly content knowing Superman didn't kill Zod to save them.

Zod is Doomsday with intelligence, and utterly shattered by the loss of his Krypton. He was basically committing suicide by Superman, and he was going to slaughter billions given the chance.


I was going to post something similar. Also, despite the criticisms of the ending "not being in line with his character", which I strongly disagree with based on watching the damn scene itself, no one has been able to suggest an ending to that fight that wouldn't be akin to wiping your ass with a film strip.
 
2013-06-14 01:10:54 PM  

Boojum2k: Because Zod is concentrating on killing as many humans as possible. So continue beating on Zod and letting him kill people and keep beating on him and letting him kill more people, because after all, those people will be perfectly content knowing Superman didn't kill Zod to save them.

Zod is Doomsday with intelligence, and utterly shattered by the loss of his Krypton. He was basically committing suicide by Superman, and he was going to slaughter billions given the chance.


Which is a plot device. This is not the first time that a villain of that power level has tried something like that in Superman's history. The point is that by canon Superman finds a way to overcome the threat without resorting to killing. That's what sets him apart from someone like Zod in the first place.
 
2013-06-14 01:11:01 PM  

KiltedBastich: And yet he can manage to snap his neck. This is what's called a "plot device". They could just as easily have portrayed an enraged Superman with more experience with his abilities and longer exposure to a yellow sun suddenly letting go of the learned restraint he needs to exist safely in a tissue paper world and beating the everloving snot out of Zod, then turning to the American military, telling them how to imprison Zod, and telling them "If you decide you need to execute him, I will help you do it, but this is your world, that decision should be made by humans."


In the context of this story, Supes wouldn't have the first idea how to imprison him. He's barely come to terms with who he is, and what Krypton is all about. There isn't (as far as he and we know) anything that could hold him, and his entire ethos for existing is to kill Kal and the planet.
 
2013-06-14 01:12:43 PM  

un4gvn666: Rwa2play: Negative Zone

Phantom Zone, goddamnit (sorry, nerdrage)


LOL, okay, okay~!

Rwa2play: only for Zod to somehow acquire it because, after he beats Supes to within an inch of his life, he'll send him there.  Except he somehow farks up, sends himself and his crew there and Supes destroys the device?

So instead of having Superman beat Zod, you would rather Zod loses by accident?

That is just terrible. Just. Terrible.


That would kill the movie wouldn't it?
 
2013-06-14 01:12:50 PM  

BafflerMeal: Has anybody ever wondered about the F = ma in comics?

Superman or anyone else could be hard as diamond and impervious to damage, but unless they also move at hundreds of miles an hour when 'punching' something, the force generated would never equal what we see in films or comics. It would hurt a lot to be sure and could break down objects, but to generate as much force as is shown sometimes, they would either have to be hyper-dense mass or moving at supersonic speeds. I dunno, that bit always irks me. Like when super strong folks pick up something really heavy off to the side of their center of mass and don't lift themselves into the air.

/yes I know it's comics


Oh, yes, the whole 'pick a bus up by the bumper and swing it like a baseball bat' routine. The one that got me was the end of Doom where they are fighting the solar flare and it only takes about 150 seconds for the solar flare to reach the Earth. I was like: um, 8 minutes and some change, and that has mass, so, longer, fools!
 
2013-06-14 01:13:45 PM  

KiltedBastich: Which is a plot device. This is not the first time that a villain of that power level has tried something like that in Superman's history. The point is that by canon Superman finds a way to overcome the threat without resorting to killing. That's what sets him apart from someone like Zod in the first place


This is my whole argument right here and what makes Supes a hero and not a vigilante.
 
2013-06-14 01:14:40 PM  

Rwa2play: KiltedBastich: Dimensio: The reviewer is correct. In the comics, Superman does not kill.

RexTalionis: [static.comicvine.com image 400x379]

Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?

Do keep in mind that this was an alternate-earth storyline where Zod and his cronies had killed off literally the  entire human race. IIRC, there were a few hundred survivors left at the start of the story, and they were all dead except Supergirl (who was badly hurt) by the end of the story. Superman was literally the last man standing, the only representative of law and order left (as he mentions). And he had no phantom zone tech in that universe. This was literally the only thing he could do, it was as thoroughly justified an execution as it's possible to imagine, and it was still the hardest thing he'd ever done. It was also done with deliberation, after considering the consequences and ramifications. It was not a hot blood instinctive response in the middle of a fight.

The fact that Superman can bend enough to face a horrible but necessary reality, but that only such a horrible but necessary reality is enough to make him bend, makes the character and his moral code stronger, not weaker. He's not holding to his code in unthinking ideological absolutist fashion. He's holding to it having considered the ramifications and limits of his code. He knows what the edge case is where he is willing to step beyond it. Considering that the edge case is literally the genocide of billions by an overwhelmingly powerful foe with no other recourse at all, I think it is consistent, and I think that Waid's criticism holds true.

Which is why I stated this would've been a better story if it were about Wonder Woman.



She's always known that sometimes it is necessary to kill, and doesn't have a problem with the idea.


Different topic: I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if this is addressed. If Superman (and by extension all other Kryptonians) gets supercharged by sunlight, then wouldn't Kryptonian that has been exposed to and soaking up that sunlight for couple of decades be exponentially more powerful than one that has just (he said jokingly) seen the light?
 
2013-06-14 01:15:25 PM  

KiltedBastich: This is not the first time that a villain of that power level has tried something like that in Superman's history


This is, however, the first time they have shown it in something resembling a more realistic world. The usual way in the comic is a cheap clichéd plot device that is used to keep the writers from having to show Superman making that hard decision, of having to make a real human decision instead of being a god and pulling a deus ex machine right out of his ass. I'll watch Superman snap Zod's neck as a last resort and feel utterly devastated over having to do it a hundred times over rather than seeing him throw a cellophane wrapper at him even once more.
 
2013-06-14 01:16:59 PM  

give me doughnuts: Different topic: I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if this is addressed. If Superman (and by extension all other Kryptonians) gets supercharged by sunlight, then wouldn't Kryptonian that has been exposed to and soaking up that sunlight for couple of decades be exponentially more powerful than one that has just (he said jokingly) seen the light?


My take on this is: A battery can only hold up to the charge it's supposed to hold. Same thing goes for Kryptonians, they're essentially organic solar panels. Once their internal batteries are full, that's all they can hold.
 
2013-06-14 01:18:15 PM  

give me doughnuts: Rwa2play: KiltedBastich: Dimensio: The reviewer is correct. In the comics, Superman does not kill.

RexTalionis: [static.comicvine.com image 400x379]

Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?

Do keep in mind that this was an alternate-earth storyline where Zod and his cronies had killed off literally the  entire human race. IIRC, there were a few hundred survivors left at the start of the story, and they were all dead except Supergirl (who was badly hurt) by the end of the story. Superman was literally the last man standing, the only representative of law and order left (as he mentions). And he had no phantom zone tech in that universe. This was literally the only thing he could do, it was as thoroughly justified an execution as it's possible to imagine, and it was still the hardest thing he'd ever done. It was also done with deliberation, after considering the consequences and ramifications. It was not a hot blood instinctive response in the middle of a fight.

The fact that Superman can bend enough to face a horrible but necessary reality, but that only such a horrible but necessary reality is enough to make him bend, makes the character and his moral code stronger, not weaker. He's not holding to his code in unthinking ideological absolutist fashion. He's holding to it having considered the ramifications and limits of his code. He knows what the edge case is where he is willing to step beyond it. Considering that the edge case is literally the genocide of billions by an overwhelmingly powerful foe with no other recourse at all, I think it is consistent, and I think that Waid's criticism holds true.

Which is why I stated this would've been a better story if it were about Wonder Woman.


She's always known that sometimes it is necessary to kill, and doesn't have a problem with the idea.


Different topic: I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if this is addressed. If Superman (and by extension all other Kryptonians) get ...


It is addressed, obliquely, it's pretty much the same power level once they start absorbing the solar radiation, along with breathing Earth's air which seems to add more of the power set.
 
2013-06-14 01:18:35 PM  

give me doughnuts: Different topic: I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if this is addressed. If Superman (and by extension all other Kryptonians) gets supercharged by sunlight, then wouldn't Kryptonian that has been exposed to and soaking up that sunlight for couple of decades be exponentially more powerful than one that has just (he said jokingly) seen the light?


Not really addressed. In my head, it's not a matter of charging level, it's either on or off. They do deal with the concept of learning and  controlling those powers.
 
2013-06-14 01:19:19 PM  

Boojum2k: KiltedBastich: This is not the first time that a villain of that power level has tried something like that in Superman's history

This is, however, the first time they have shown it in something resembling a more realistic world. The usual way in the comic is a cheap clichéd plot device that is used to keep the writers from having to show Superman making that hard decision, of having to make a real human decision instead of being a god and pulling a deus ex machine right out of his ass. I'll watch Superman snap Zod's neck as a last resort and feel utterly devastated over having to do it a hundred times over rather than seeing him throw a cellophane wrapper at him even once more.


Superman threw the cellophane "S" shield at Non, not at Zod.

/Yeah, he didn't see that minor inconvenience coming.
 
2013-06-14 01:19:33 PM  

un4gvn666: I was going to post something similar. Also, despite the criticisms of the ending "not being in line with his character", which I strongly disagree with based on watching the damn scene itself, no one has been able to suggest an ending to that fight that wouldn't be akin to wiping your ass with a film strip.


To elaborate on my previous suggestion: Superman has been on Earth for more than 20 years, absorbing yellow sunlight the whole time, but also learning to limit himself so as not to accidentally destroy everything he comes in contact with. Zod has just arrived on Earth, has only just gained his powers, and started learning how to handle them. Heck, they even address this in the movie.

It's again part of the canon that Superman's power levels grow slowly as he gets older and absorbs more solar energy. For example, in Kingdom Come Luthor mentions that Kryptonite doesn't affect Superman the way it used to because of the decades he's spent under yellow sunlight growing stronger. It is perfectly within canon to presume that 2 decades of extra yellow sunlight exposure would give Superman a real edge over Zod who had newly arrived on Earth.

So show Superman get desperate and cut loose with his full strength, show Zod having a "holy shiat I'm so farked!" moment when he realizes that Superman has been holding back, and then show Superman beat the everliving daylights out of Zod, leaving him a beaten wreck despite his Kryptonian powers. Ta da, satisfying resolution, climatic battle, crowning moment of awesome, and Superman doesn't kill and gets to profess loyalty to humanity by turning over Zod to them for punishment / execution.

I repeat, this is all a plot device. The decision to change the character was deliberate and not needed, and that is why Waid is upset about it, and I agree with his criticisms.
 
2013-06-14 01:20:22 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: KiltedBastich: Which is a plot device. This is not the first time that a villain of that power level has tried something like that in Superman's history. The point is that by canon Superman finds a way to overcome the threat without resorting to killing. That's what sets him apart from someone like Zod in the first place

This is my whole argument right here and what makes Supes a hero and not a vigilante.



As Superman undertakes to enforce the law while not being a member of any law enforcement organization, Superman is a vigilante by definition.
 
2013-06-14 01:20:41 PM  

Hebalo: Rwa2play: Which is why I stated this would've been a better story if it were about Wonder Woman.

Look no offense, as you clearly seem interested in the character and the movie, but go see the damn thing before you make these sweeping (and in my opinion, totally wrong) statements.


None taken. :)  I'm just inferring from the reviews I've read, comments here and Waid's own take.  I just want this to be a great movie and put DC back on the map, not a movie that, while great, reminds me of the huge plot holes of "The Dark Knight Rises".
 
2013-06-14 01:23:56 PM  
These complaints boil down to irrational idealism.

Spoilers:


Superman was begging and pleading with Zod to stop what he was doing. Multiple times he screamed for him to stop. Zod was self-destructive. He didn't care if he died. Zod's home planet, his reason for existing, was completely wiped out by the child of one if its own citizens.Zod was willing to destroy an entire planet to get revenge against Superman for that act, and he was going to start by incinerating an entire family. When Superman takes the only solution available to him to stop imminent death, he is visibly emotionally distressed. He was just forced into murdering the only known survivor of his home planet, the only other person of his species, and he sells that distress perfectly. Even Lois, having seen what he just did, comforted him, knowing he was forced to do something that goes against everything he is. The emotion was raw, it was brilliantly acted, and it humanized Superman in a way I didn't expect from the film.

If you can watch that scene and say "they've thrown away everything the character stands for" then it's easy for people to say you have unrealistic expectations for a Superman film.
 
2013-06-14 01:24:24 PM  

KiltedBastich: So show Superman get desperate and cut loose with his full strength, show Zod having a "holy shiat I'm so farked!" moment when he realizes that Superman has been holding back, and then show Superman beat the everliving daylights out of Zod, leaving him a beaten wreck despite his Kryptonian powers. Ta da, satisfying resolution, climatic battle, crowning moment of awesome, and Superman doesn't kill and gets to profess loyalty to humanity by turning over Zod to them for punishment / execution.


This is in no way better than the film. It's what YOU wish to happen, fanboy fic. The film version deals with themes and internal narrative. You're using your opinion of what you'd like to see happen, with cherry picked pieces of canon to prove your point.

The climax was just fine the way it was. Waid has a point, if the most important aspect was to be true to a dated version of the character that isn't selling, and hasn't worked in film.

I'll take this Supes any day.
 
2013-06-14 01:25:22 PM  

Hebalo: In the context of this story, Supes wouldn't have the first idea how to imprison him. He's barely come to terms with who he is, and what Krypton is all about. There isn't (as far as he and we know) anything that could hold him, and his entire ethos for existing is to kill Kal and the planet.


But he knows it's the yellow sun that gives him his powers. Doesn't take much to move from that idea to reasoning that depriving Zod of exposure to yellow sunlight will drain his powers.

HST's Dead Carcass: Oh, yes, the whole 'pick a bus up by the bumper and swing it like a baseball bat' routine. The one that got me was the end of Doom where they are fighting the solar flare and it only takes about 150 seconds for the solar flare to reach the Earth. I was like: um, 8 minutes and some change, and that has mass, so, longer, fools!


Actually, if they have independant flying powers it's fine, because they can use the flying powers to offset their exertions. You can assume he's anchoring himself in place by actively using his flight to counterbalance the force he's exerting.

Now, with someone like the Hulk, it's much harder to explain away.
 
2013-06-14 01:25:23 PM  

Rwa2play: Hebalo: Rwa2play: Which is why I stated this would've been a better story if it were about Wonder Woman.

Look no offense, as you clearly seem interested in the character and the movie, but go see the damn thing before you make these sweeping (and in my opinion, totally wrong) statements.

None taken. :)  I'm just inferring from the reviews I've read, comments here and Waid's own take.  I just want this to be a great movie and put DC back on the map, not a movie that, while great, reminds me of the huge plot holes of "The Dark Knight Rises".


It's much, much better than Rises. Somewhere between Begins and Dark Knight, I'd say. You're going to love it.
 
2013-06-14 01:26:01 PM  
Let's not leave out...

Lack of background set continuity from scene to scene

Scene editing done by a monkey

The utter humorlessness of the writing

Theatre of destruction type scenes involving hundreds of people where basically nobody dies.

Every plot point being based either on Kryptonian phlebotinum that gets contradicted five minutes later, or on contrived threat to Kal-el's F&F

/seen it, and it was poorly done.
 
2013-06-14 01:27:01 PM  

un4gvn666: These complaints boil down to irrational idealism.

Spoilers:


Superman was begging and pleading with Zod to stop what he was doing. Multiple times he screamed for him to stop. Zod was self-destructive. He didn't care if he died. Zod's home planet, his reason for existing, was completely wiped out by the child of one if its own citizens.Zod was willing to destroy an entire planet to get revenge against Superman for that act, and he was going to start by incinerating an entire family. When Superman takes the only solution available to him to stop imminent death, he is visibly emotionally distressed. He was just forced into murdering the only known survivor of his home planet, the only other person of his species, and he sells that distress perfectly. Even Lois, having seen what he just did, comforted him, knowing he was forced to do something that goes against everything he is. The emotion was raw, it was brilliantly acted, and it humanized Superman in a way I didn't expect from the film.

If you can watch that scene and say "they've thrown away everything the character stands for" then it's easy for people to say you have unrealistic expectations for a Superman film.


Thanks, that helps justify it some.

I'm still gonna tease the shiat out of my Superman loving friend: Kal El is a murderer. He's no better than Luthor. Darkseid has nothing on that murderer Kal El.

Why? Because I can!
 
2013-06-14 01:29:08 PM  

KiltedBastich: Actually, if they have independant flying powers it's fine, because they can use the flying powers to offset their exertions. You can assume he's anchoring himself in place by actively using his flight to counterbalance the force he's exerting.


I'm more biatching about the structural integrity of the object they are wielding. There is no way you can pick up and swing a bus by it's front bumper. Or grabbing random chunks of Asphalt to throw. Asphalt doesn't work that way!!
 
2013-06-14 01:30:12 PM  

Hebalo: This is in no way better than the film. It's what YOU wish to happen, fanboy fic. The film version deals with themes and internal narrative. You're using your opinion of what you'd like to see happen, with cherry picked pieces of canon to prove your point.

The climax was just fine the way it was. Waid has a point, if the most important aspect was to be true to a dated version of the character that isn't selling, and hasn't worked in film.

I'll take this Supes any day.


It's not supposed to be better. It's supposed to demonstrate that the ending they picked was a deliberate choice to discard one of the most fundamental defining aspects of the character, and that it was not necessary to do so because a effective narrative that did not require that discarding that aspect of the character was equally plausible.

And if you think that a code against killing makes a character dated, might I suggest you avoid Batman as well. After all, he was so dated when he refused to kill anyone in Nolan's trilogy, wasn't he?

/the 90's called, they want to tell you about these new grim and gritty antiheroes willing to kill they are making all the rage.
 
2013-06-14 01:30:13 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: Thanks, that helps justify it some.

I'm still gonna tease the shiat out of my Superman loving friend: Kal El is a murderer. He's no better than Luthor. Darkseid has nothing on that murderer Kal El.

Why? Because I can!


Ah, but murder is causing the intentional death of another human being. Kal El killed an alien.
 
2013-06-14 01:32:03 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: Why? Because I can!


LOL, you seem like a cool guy, at least.
 
2013-06-14 01:32:19 PM  

HST's Dead Carcass: I'm more biatching about the structural integrity of the object they are wielding. There is no way you can pick up and swing a bus by it's front bumper. Or grabbing random chunks of Asphalt to throw. Asphalt doesn't work that way!!


This was one thing I like about Superboy's tactile telekinesis, actually. He can actually pick up a building by a corner and throw it, and have that not be internally inconsistent!
 
2013-06-14 01:32:22 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Pilikia: Mark Waid does not know a lot about Superman. Mark Waid knows a lot about what he thinks Superman should be (insert stop liking things I don't like image here). And his navel-gazing opinioneering aside, the man doesn't know the first thing about writing a coherent movie review.

Yeah, the guy who wrote Kingdom Come and knows comic book history like the back of his hand knows NOTHING about Superman.


Well, let's take a look at Kingdom Come, shall we (with spoilers):

The Joker visits Metropolis, kills Lois and the entire Daily Planet crew.  Superman won't kill the Joker, Magog does (right on the way to the courthouse, no less), goes on trial for the Joker's murder (despite public outcry calling for the death penalty for a criminal who time and time again was allowed to live and only killed more when he escaped) and is acquitted despite Superman's protest that being judge, jury and executioner isn't right.  Supes loses public favor and flees Metropolis.  Magog goes on to battle a bunch of bad guys in the corn belt who eventually rip open Captain Atom, causing a nuclear explosion that lays waste to Kansas and millions of people.

Ffwd to a Superman in exile at the Fortress, bitter and angry at the battle with Magog and the loss of all he holds dear, and who at the advice of Wonder Woman comes back to yoke the chaos, uses Apokolips tech to build a gulag for supervillains, imprisoning them without due process, using holograms to psychologically 'condition' them not to kill, which just makes them angrier.  Superman becomes more and more like the Justice Lord version, saying that if the JL is coming back, they're going to keep things under control.

Ffwd to the end battle where villains battle heroes and Supes battles a mind-controlled Captain Marvel (and is losing).  The government drops a nuke on them, with Marvel diverting the bomb, the blast takes out all but a handful of heroes and villains, and Supes goes to the UN and tries to drop the ceiling on them in a murderous fury, with only the avatar of Alex Ross' dad to convince him otherwise.

Supes comes to his senses, everyone's happy.  Ffwd a few months to a superhero-themed restaurant.  Diana is pregnant with Clark's superfetus, Bruce Wayne already knows because the Amazon looks puffy, then Clark finishes cooking Bruce's steak with heat vision.  If Alfred E. Neumann had made a cameo at the end I wouldn't have been more disappointed.

While I did find the overall story compelling, Waid's whole "no kill" argument can go stuff it.  Kal-El's moral compass was all over the farking map in Kingdom Come, and even though Birthright did have some compelling pieces to it, only parts of it were used in the movie.  He should be thankful that some of his creativity was cemented in Superman film canon and leave that "Soul Aura" shiat for Captain Eo II.
 
2013-06-14 01:32:37 PM  

KiltedBastich: Hebalo: This is in no way better than the film. It's what YOU wish to happen, fanboy fic. The film version deals with themes and internal narrative. You're using your opinion of what you'd like to see happen, with cherry picked pieces of canon to prove your point.

The climax was just fine the way it was. Waid has a point, if the most important aspect was to be true to a dated version of the character that isn't selling, and hasn't worked in film.

I'll take this Supes any day.

It's not supposed to be better. It's supposed to demonstrate that the ending they picked was a deliberate choice to discard one of the most fundamental defining aspects of the character, and that it was not necessary to do so because a effective narrative that did not require that discarding that aspect of the character was equally plausible.

And if you think that a code against killing makes a character dated, might I suggest you avoid Batman as well. After all, he was so dated when he refused to kill anyone in Nolan's trilogy, wasn't he?

/the 90's called, they want to tell you about these new grim and gritty antiheroes willing to kill they are making all the rage.


Your argument is essentially "writers make choices". Yes, that's a part of the job. They chose to use that scene to accentuate the struggle Kal is undergoing. And they did a damn fine job of it.

The code doesn't date him, but neither should it handcuff him. I think you're just nitpicking for the sake of doing so.
 
2013-06-14 01:32:59 PM  

KiltedBastich: Which was another of Waid's criticisms. Why didn't Superman take the fight to somewhere where there were less people around?


Because Zod wouldn't let him? Had he tried to do that, Zod would have just gone full tilt

un4gvn666: If you can watch that scene and say "they've thrown away everything the character stands for" then it's easy for people to say you have unrealistic expectations for a Superman film.


This
 
2013-06-14 01:34:54 PM  
The Flash: So you're not a Boy Scout after all.
Superman:  Never made it past my first merit badge.

Having Superman struggle with crossing "the line" isn't exactly unheard of.  The Justice League animated series really hammered on this, to the point where Batman has to stop him from killing Darkseid.  So, if the idea of him making the "hard choice" is the biggest complaint, people are looking at the character through a pretty narrow lense.
 
2013-06-14 01:48:22 PM  

Hebalo: Your argument is essentially "writers make choices". Yes, that's a part of the job. They chose to use that scene to accentuate the struggle Kal is undergoing. And they did a damn fine job of it.

The code doesn't date him, but neither should it handcuff him. I think you're just nitpicking for the sake of doing so.


They made a choice to discard the code. That code is what keeps him from becoming judge, jury and executioner. Without that code, a great many other things the character does and doesn't do no longer made sense, because they were the logical consequences of using his powers to solve problems while not simply killing the source of the problem, which is after all a solution that is trivially simple for him to use at nearly any time.

Most people have some difficulty killing everyone who causes them problems. Superman would have no such problems. Only the most powerful beings around can give Superman a run for his money. As has been pointed out, if you do away with Superman's code against killing, why isn't Lex Luthor a greasy smear? Superman could kill him in such a way that no one would ever even know he did it in the first place, let alone be able to prove it.
 
2013-06-14 01:49:05 PM  

KiltedBastich: It's again part of the canon that Superman's power levels grow slowly as he gets older and absorbs more solar energy.


Doesn't it depend on his midichlorian count?
 
2013-06-14 01:49:15 PM  
I really, really wanted to like Man of Steel, but it was just a bad film all the way around. From the shaky-cam, "Bourne"-like action cuts, the non-sensical scenes on Krypton (oh noes the planet's gonna blow up, if only there were some way off of here....I mean besides the hundreds of spaceships currently flying around), the non-linear storytelling interrupting any shot at character development, to the "Transformers"-like 'splosions, to Perry White's ear-stud. Just blahhhh.
 
2013-06-14 01:53:01 PM  

Graboidz: I really, really wanted to like Man of Steel, but it was just a bad film all the way around.



Could not disagree more. Brilliant film, a joy to watch, everything I could want in a Superman film.
 
2013-06-14 01:55:55 PM  

KiltedBastich: un4gvn666: I was going to post something similar. Also, despite the criticisms of the ending "not being in line with his character", which I strongly disagree with based on watching the damn scene itself, no one has been able to suggest an ending to that fight that wouldn't be akin to wiping your ass with a film strip.

To elaborate on my previous suggestion: Superman has been on Earth for more than 20 years, absorbing yellow sunlight the whole time, but also learning to limit himself so as not to accidentally destroy everything he comes in contact with. Zod has just arrived on Earth, has only just gained his powers, and started learning how to handle them. Heck, they even address this in the movie.

It's again part of the canon that Superman's power levels grow slowly as he gets older and absorbs more solar energy. For example, in Kingdom Come Luthor mentions that Kryptonite doesn't affect Superman the way it used to because of the decades he's spent under yellow sunlight growing stronger. It is perfectly within canon to presume that 2 decades of extra yellow sunlight exposure would give Superman a real edge over Zod who had newly arrived on Earth.

So show Superman get desperate and cut loose with his full strength, show Zod having a "holy shiat I'm so farked!" moment when he realizes that Superman has been holding back, and then show Superman beat the everliving daylights out of Zod, leaving him a beaten wreck despite his Kryptonian powers. Ta da, satisfying resolution, climatic battle, crowning moment of awesome, and Superman doesn't kill and gets to profess loyalty to humanity by turning over Zod to them for punishment / execution.

I repeat, this is all a plot device. The decision to change the character was deliberate and not needed, and that is why Waid is upset about it, and I agree with his criticisms.


I think you discredited your own argument. Isn't the whole premise of this movie that Superman is learning, well, how to be Superman? How can he be concerned about not destroying everything but then make the decision to just say "Fark it if I'm gonna win I have to go all out"? Not to mention that yes he's known about these powers, but this is the first enemy he's had to fight with them, how is he any more capable of control than Zod? Especially since he kept them a secret for most of his life and has no clue what his true capabilities are? And let's say Supes does unleash and beat Zod to a pulp in your version of the movie, how the hell is he and/or humanity supposed to contain or control him? It seems a bit more ideal that Supes kills him rather than trying to write in somewhere that Jor El just happened to know that Kal would have to face off against other Kryptonians and surprise! I have this cool alien tech that will help you control the situation, kinda makes for an anticlimactic situation-see the other superman movies. I understand your sticking to your guns about Superman not killing and kudos. As a life long Superman fan I applaud you want him to be the hero he's known to be. But I think the kill does set up the foundation for him to become that hero in a movie version, as someone mentioned upthread. Comics are continuous so it's understandable that you can keep villains alive to come back later and do stuff. But movies are appealing to a wider audience and don't run in the lines comics do, which is why most movie series aren't exceeding long. However I do realize Hollywood is changing that trend.
 
2013-06-14 01:56:34 PM  

Graboidz: the non-sensical scenes on Krypton (oh noes the planet's gonna blow up, if only there were some way off of here....I mean besides the hundreds of spaceships currently flying around)


Yeah because it was the movie that invented that...

Troll harder.
 
2013-06-14 02:02:30 PM  

KiltedBastich: And if you think that a code against killing makes a character dated, might I suggest you avoid Batman as well. After all, he was so dated when he refused to kill anyone in Nolan's trilogy, wasn't he?


Refused to kill. Feh. Two minutes later Nolan made him into a hypocrit.

I wonder how meny died when the League of Shadows palace went ker-blooey?
Sure some of the ninjas escaped, but what about the farmer Bruce was supposed to execute?
 
2013-06-14 02:03:57 PM  

give me doughnuts: KiltedBastich: And if you think that a code against killing makes a character dated, might I suggest you avoid Batman as well. After all, he was so dated when he refused to kill anyone in Nolan's trilogy, wasn't he?

Refused to kill. Feh. Two minutes later Nolan made him into a hypocrit.

I wonder how meny died when the League of Shadows palace went ker-blooey?
Sure some of the ninjas escaped, but what about the farmer Bruce was supposed to execute?


Bruce would not kill the farmer, but Bruce did also not have to save him.
 
2013-06-14 02:04:28 PM  

rocky_howard: Graboidz: the non-sensical scenes on Krypton (oh noes the planet's gonna blow up, if only there were some way off of here....I mean besides the hundreds of spaceships currently flying around)

Yeah because it was the movie that invented that...

Troll harder.


Not trolling in any way, I was just confused as to why Kryptonians would just kind of stand around waiting for their planet to explode when there are obviously fleets of spaceships circling overhead, and they have the ability to travel to other worlds and terraform them in needed?
 
2013-06-14 02:05:14 PM  

give me doughnuts: KiltedBastich: And if you think that a code against killing makes a character dated, might I suggest you avoid Batman as well. After all, he was so dated when he refused to kill anyone in Nolan's trilogy, wasn't he?

Refused to kill. Feh. Two minutes later Nolan made him into a hypocrit.

I wonder how meny died when the League of Shadows palace went ker-blooey?
Sure some of the ninjas escaped, but what about the farmer Bruce was supposed to execute?


Ha! This. At least someone else noticed this besides me. What about the rockets he uses on his bike/tumbler? I'm pretty sure people aren't walking away from those explosions...
 
2013-06-14 02:08:43 PM  

Graboidz: Not trolling in any way, I was just confused as to why Kryptonians would just kind of stand around waiting for their planet to explode when there are obviously fleets of spaceships circling overhead, and they have the ability to travel to other worlds and terraform them in needed?


None of the ships at Krypton, apart from the "prison ship" were shown to be able to leave the atmosphere (that I recall,) and the outpost ships were abandoned long ago, as (likely) was the entire program.

I think the whole point was that Jor-El was trying to convince them to leave, but no one supported/believed him.
 
2013-06-14 02:11:10 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: Coincidentally, Mark Waid happened to write one of the best Superman stories ever.

He just had to call it "Irredeemable".


THIS.  SO.  MUCH.

Whenever I thought that book reached it's end, it kept going and was good about it.
 
2013-06-14 02:11:48 PM  

Graboidz: rocky_howard: Graboidz: the non-sensical scenes on Krypton (oh noes the planet's gonna blow up, if only there were some way off of here....I mean besides the hundreds of spaceships currently flying around)

Yeah because it was the movie that invented that...

Troll harder.

Not trolling in any way, I was just confused as to why Kryptonians would just kind of stand around waiting for their planet to explode when there are obviously fleets of spaceships circling overhead, and they have the ability to travel to other worlds and terraform them in needed?


They have flying cars not spaceships, they went all space exploration == bad and scraped the rockets after somebody blew up a moon
 
2013-06-14 02:13:25 PM  

Hebalo: Graboidz: Not trolling in any way, I was just confused as to why Kryptonians would just kind of stand around waiting for their planet to explode when there are obviously fleets of spaceships circling overhead, and they have the ability to travel to other worlds and terraform them in needed?

None of the ships at Krypton, apart from the "prison ship" were shown to be able to leave the atmosphere (that I recall,) and the outpost ships were abandoned long ago, as (likely) was the entire program.

I think the whole point was that Jor-El was trying to convince them to leave, but no one supported/believed him.


I thought the same thing. Seeing that in every Superman origin I have seen. It is Jor-El who is arguing to leave Krypton because its about to explode and everyone else does not believe him. Heck, Superman The Animated Adventure had this origin.
 
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