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(Thrillbent)   A 'Man Of Steel' review from Mark Waid, a guy who knows a little bit about Superman   (thrillbent.com) divider line 373
    More: Interesting, Mark Waid, Man of Steel, Superman, Zod, Brandon Routh, Jor-El, Infinite Crisis, secret identity  
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9933 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Jun 2013 at 8:56 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-14 10:13:35 AM
static.comicvine.com

Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?
 
2013-06-14 10:15:54 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: Superman Movies just don't really work! In EVERY single Superman movie (I've not seen this one yet), the only way to beat Superman is to take away his powers.


I'm actually glad that they don't do something like this in the film. It's pretty played out already.
 
2013-06-14 10:16:57 AM

un4gvn666: Exactly. That's why I went to the theaters for the first time in about 6 months to watch it at midnight yesterday. And I would have done that regardless of whatever silly bullshiat was posted by the snobs over at RT. Thankfully, the movie was incredible. Easily one of the top 5 superhero movies ever made.


I'd put it up there easily with Dark Knight

I really am flabergasted at the hate this movie is generating, it's like people who biatch about flying. You're just trying to find a reason to hate something.
 
2013-06-14 10:17:24 AM

yves0010: Electric_Banana: Hebalo: It was great. I'm confused by the negative reactions. It's everything you want out of a Superman film.

It's not what I want out of a Superman film.  The reviews I have read and seen confirm what I thought from the trailers.  The tone reminds me of Batman Begins and the action reminds me of Transformers.  The parts with Ma and Pa Kent actually looked pretty good.  But I thought the whole Deadliest Catch: Superman bit looked pretty silly.

Deadliest Catch: Superman was like 5 minutes long and gets put into perspective while you watch the movie. And it is not a bad thing for it to take a tone like Batman Begins and use it for Superman. We actually get to see a Superman that is not explored in motion pictures of any kind. A conflicted Clark searching for who he really is. Most of the Superman series and movies I have seen is that of Clark knowing who he is and what hes going to do. Smallville might be the only other one I can think of that does not have a Superman that knows he's Superman. But I never really watched Smallville.


Smallville essentially became "Superman without the costume or flight" no later than season 8. By the final episode of season 10, Clark had fought Doomsday, Brainiac, Zod, a clone of Zod, a merger of Zod and the clone of Zod, Metallo, the Toyman, an ersatz Vandal Savage. He had also met a Flash (Bart Allen), Cyborg, Aquaman, Green Arrow, his cousin Kara, members of the League of Super Heroes in the future (whom Kara eventually joined in the future), Conner Kent (who was presented as a clone of Lex Luthor who only later was discovered to have received half of his DNA from Clark), Booster Gold and Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes, before he became a doctor at UNATCO). He was also engaged to marry Lois Lane and had revealed his identity to her (though she had learned the truth without her realising it before he told her the truth).

A Superman origin story evidently can only run for so long before he essentially becomes Superman, no matter how much the writers attempt to deny it.
 
2013-06-14 10:17:45 AM

un4gvn666: Rhypskallion: The director of MOS directed 300, which has a 60 on RT

Even more confirmation that RT is worthless. 300 was farking awesome.

/not sure about the sequel, but I'm intrigued


RT is kind of crap for genre movies, because critics often don't give them a fair shake. they compare them to whatever indie melancholic movie is playing at sundance and not to their peer group.
 
2013-06-14 10:17:54 AM

RexTalionis: [static.comicvine.com image 400x379]

Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?


Holy shiat. MoS Superman is actually more relatable than comic Superman. That's just weird.
 
2013-06-14 10:18:02 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: un4gvn666: Exactly. That's why I went to the theaters for the first time in about 6 months to watch it at midnight yesterday. And I would have done that regardless of whatever silly bullshiat was posted by the snobs over at RT. Thankfully, the movie was incredible. Easily one of the top 5 superhero movies ever made.

I'd put it up there easily with Dark Knight

I really am flabergasted at the hate this movie is generating, it's like people who biatch about flying. You're just trying to find a reason to hate something.


Agreed. Seriously don't understand the negative. It was brilliant.
 
2013-06-14 10:19:00 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: un4gvn666: Exactly. That's why I went to the theaters for the first time in about 6 months to watch it at midnight yesterday. And I would have done that regardless of whatever silly bullshiat was posted by the snobs over at RT. Thankfully, the movie was incredible. Easily one of the top 5 superhero movies ever made.

I'd put it up there easily with Dark Knight

I really am flabergasted at the hate this movie is generating, it's like people who biatch about flying. You're just trying to find a reason to hate something.


I am still disappointed by the absence of a giant spider battle in the third act.
 
2013-06-14 10:19:22 AM

PsyLord: 58%?  Wow, that's not good.


Dman~! Posted this on the wrong thread but:

Oh yeah...this movie's gonna suck BIG TIME~!  With a few changes tailored towards a story about Wonder Woman, it seems this could've been a great vehicle for her.  Not Superman acting more like Batman.

/back to the drawing board DC/WB.
//Jesus, you guys farking suck
 
2013-06-14 10:22:48 AM

Dimensio: I am still disappointed by the absence of a giant spider battle in the third act.


There is a joke here that involves the movie but I can't put out there because it has a spoiler

GAH
 
2013-06-14 10:24:52 AM

thecpt: PsyLord: 58%?  Wow, that's not good.

Could be. Rt is far from perfect


I saw it last night.  It wasn't a perfect movie, but easily better than Superman Returns (RT 75%, wt Fark?!?)

The problem here is that expectations are higher.  There was a lot of good things, but the middle sagged quite a bit.  But we did actually get to see what happens when Kryptonians fight on our planet. That alone was worth price of admission.   And thankfully, no "real estate Lex".
 
2013-06-14 10:26:18 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Dimensio: I am still disappointed by the absence of a giant spider battle in the third act.

There is a joke here that involves the movie but I can't put out there because it has a spoiler

GAH


I actually couldn't figured out how the hell to post the white text that people sometimes use to put spoilers, but couldn't figure it out. If anyone knows, that might be useful to know in threads like this.
 
2013-06-14 10:27:03 AM

un4gvn666: I actually couldn't figured out how the hell to post the white text that people sometimes use to put spoilers, but couldn't figure it out.


Yeah, I think I'm getting too old for these midnight screenings.
 
2013-06-14 10:28:00 AM

Dimensio: IdBeCrazyIf: un4gvn666: Exactly. That's why I went to the theaters for the first time in about 6 months to watch it at midnight yesterday. And I would have done that regardless of whatever silly bullshiat was posted by the snobs over at RT. Thankfully, the movie was incredible. Easily one of the top 5 superhero movies ever made.

I'd put it up there easily with Dark Knight

I really am flabergasted at the hate this movie is generating, it's like people who biatch about flying. You're just trying to find a reason to hate something.

I am still disappointed by the absence of a giant spider battle in the third act.


I forget which Farker said the following, so forgive me if I don't give you the proper credit.

Marvel's movies are made by people who loved the comic/character(s).  DC's movies are made by people who just read the comic.  There's the difference.

Exhibit A: The Punisher mini-movie.  Exhibit B:  The Batgirl web series.
 
2013-06-14 10:28:16 AM

RyansPrivates: The problem here is that expectations are higher. There was a lot of good things, but the middle sagged quite a bit. But we did actually get to see what happens when Kryptonians fight on our planet. That alone was worth price of admission. And thankfully, no "real estate Lex".


And thankfully enough Lex references that its obvious what the next one is going to have and my guess will be the take will be.

un4gvn666: I actually couldn't figured out how the hell to post the white text that people sometimes use to put spoilers, but couldn't figure it out. If anyone knows, that might be useful to know in threads like this.


Exactly
 
2013-06-14 10:29:10 AM

RexTalionis: Remember when Superman literally executed Zod and his lieutenants in the comics?


So? That was one writer's take for one particular story - the overwhelming majority of Superman stories gives him the "does not kill" character trait. Boiled down, Supes wants to avoid any intentional or accidental death and is willing to sacrifice himself to reach that end because he believes he isn't more valuable than everyone else. He's the guy who instinctually steps in between danger and the victim - he's just lucky enough to be nigh invincible. Avoiding others dying is priority number one for Supes - thus having him kill is extremely out of character.
 
2013-06-14 10:31:48 AM

Solon Isonomia: That was one writer's take for one particular story


And incidentally, this movie is another writer's take for another particular story.
 
2013-06-14 10:32:37 AM
Never really read Waid's Superman stuff (I was a Batman kid), but his run on The Flash was excellent.
 
2013-06-14 10:33:14 AM

Solon Isonomia: Avoiding others dying is priority number one for Supes - thus having him kill is extremely out of character.


You know how I know you haven't seen the movie
 
2013-06-14 10:33:30 AM

Solon Isonomia: the overwhelming majority of Superman stories gives him the "does not kill" character trait. Boiled down, Supes wants to avoid any intentional or accidental death and is willing to sacrifice himself to reach that end because he believes he isn't more valuable than everyone else.


You can argue both ways, but I think the climax of the film exemplifies this pretty well, especially his emotional distress after its all over.
 
2013-06-14 10:38:31 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Solon Isonomia: Avoiding others dying is priority number one for Supes - thus having him kill is extremely out of character.

You know how I know you haven't seen the movie


From Waid's review, I'm more annoyed with him trying to destroy a giant machine in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to destroy same giant machine wrecking Metropolis.
 
2013-06-14 10:39:52 AM

Rwa2play: From Waid's review, I'm more annoyed with him trying to destroy a giant machine in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to destroy same giant machine wrecking Metropolis.


There is a reason behind it, Waid missed it

Seen it twice now and even I missed it the first time
 
2013-06-14 10:41:48 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Rwa2play: From Waid's review, I'm more annoyed with him trying to destroy a giant machine in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to destroy same giant machine wrecking Metropolis.

There is a reason behind it, Waid missed it

Seen it twice now and even I missed it the first time


I would understand it if it was akin to how Supes in the '78 movie promised Miss Tessmacher that he'd take out the missile heading for NJ first.
 
2013-06-14 10:44:28 AM
Superman kills. Really now? Because there was no other way? It occurs to me Superman always found an alternative way than killing, otherwise he'd just super punch every villain and exlaim: "Sorry, no other way to do it, he woulda kept going if we tried to lock him up." Lex Luthor would be a greasy stain across 3 states if this were the case.

That just seems sl wrong that Batman wouldn't kill, but Superman would. Like I said, they gotta make him edgy and flawed.

But, the flip side of this is would they had made a Superman movie true to himself, I'd be sitting here biatching about how they've done nothing to advance the character or give us anything that hasn't been done before.

I may be an asshole, but I know myself too well.
 
2013-06-14 10:45:26 AM

Rwa2play: From Waid's review, I'm more annoyed with him trying to destroy a giant machine in the middle of nowhere instead of trying to destroy same giant machine wrecking Metropolis.


1.- Nobody could go to the other side of the world as fast as Superman, so it was a no-brainer he took the farther one.

2.- Nobody would have done anything to that thing except Superman. So anyone going there would have been slaughtered.

3.- If Superman had stayed in Metropolis he wouldn't have done anything since all the Kryptonians would jump him anyway.

IdBeCrazyIf: There is a reason behind it, Waid missed it

Seen it twice now and even I missed it the first time


What is the reason you proclaim?
 
2013-06-14 10:46:10 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: Superman kills. Really now? Because there was no other way? It occurs to me Superman always found an alternative way than killing, otherwise he'd just super punch every villain and exlaim: "Sorry, no other way to do it, he woulda kept going if we tried to lock him up." Lex Luthor would be a greasy stain across 3 states if this were the case.

That just seems sl wrong that Batman wouldn't kill, but Superman would. Like I said, they gotta make him edgy and flawed.

But, the flip side of this is would they had made a Superman movie true to himself, I'd be sitting here biatching about how they've done nothing to advance the character or give us anything that hasn't been done before.

I may be an asshole, but I know myself too well.


It sounds like it would've made more sense if Zod, in trying to kill Supes, gets himself killed in the process.
 
2013-06-14 10:46:12 AM

Rwa2play: I would understand it if it was akin to how Supes in the '78 movie promised Miss Tessmacher that he'd take out the missile heading for NJ first.


I can't give it away, spoils it a little but there is a reason he is one place and not the other besides the disaster porn but even that's justified to some degree because we get Zod portrayed as a ruthless SOB, and Michael Shannon was AMAZING.

The only performance that was forgettable would be Amy Adams, but really it's not that she does a bad job. She does a great job, it's just that everyone around her does so much better of a job that she is outshined.
 
2013-06-14 10:47:21 AM

RexTalionis: Solon Isonomia: That was one writer's take for one particular story

And incidentally, this movie is another writer's take for another particular story.


Agreed, but Waid's criticism of MoS diverging from the essence of Supes is no less valid because of what happen with Zod in the comics. I get "re-imagining" and "updating," but altering a fundamental element of a character is a valid target of criticism.

Take the new Star Trek movie - at the start, Kirk was still a brash womanizer (consistent) but didn't clearly put the ship/mission in front of his own goals (inconsistent and mostly unexplored in the prior film). Once the climax hits, Kirk grows and puts ship/mission before himself and becomes more consistent with the prior characterization while giving us a reason why the prior characterization would exist. From what we're hearing, Supes doesn't have that same growth in MoS.
 
2013-06-14 10:49:35 AM

Solon Isonomia: From what we're hearing, Supes doesn't have that same growth in MoS.


Then, in that sense, how is that inconsistent with Superman in the comic books? Isn't he often remembered as America's biggest boy scout for 60-70 some odd years?
 
2013-06-14 10:50:34 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Rwa2play: I would understand it if it was akin to how Supes in the '78 movie promised Miss Tessmacher that he'd take out the missile heading for NJ first.

I can't give it away, spoils it a little


NO DON'T~!

but there is a reason he is one place and not the other besides the disaster porn but even that's justified to some degree because we get Zod portrayed as a ruthless SOB, and Michael Shannon was AMAZING.

Well, without watching the movie, you can have disaster porn that makes sense (i.e. California suffering "The Big One" in the '78 movie); but disaster porn for the sake of it would be...really?

The only performance that was forgettable would be Amy Adams, but really it's not that she does a bad job. She does a great job, it's just that everyone around her does so much better of a job that she is outshined.

I guess I'm the only one that gets agitated because they've miscast Lois twice in the movies while they got it right in "Smallville".
 
2013-06-14 10:53:03 AM

yves0010: Yes, it is a "Batman Begins" of the Superman films


i.imgur.com

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-14 10:55:41 AM

Solon Isonomia: RexTalionis: Solon Isonomia: That was one writer's take for one particular story

And incidentally, this movie is another writer's take for another particular story.

Agreed, but Waid's criticism of MoS diverging from the essence of Supes is no less valid because of what happen with Zod in the comics. I get "re-imagining" and "updating," but altering a fundamental element of a character is a valid target of criticism.


Thank you for visualizing the gripe I have with this movie and have had since the initial trailer.  I don't mind re-imagining and updating the character so long as you keep what makes the character who s/he is whole.  That's what I liked from both "Batman Begins" and "Iron Man".

Take the new Star Trek movie - at the start, Kirk was still a brash womanizer (consistent) but didn't clearly put the ship/mission in front of his own goals (inconsistent and mostly unexplored in the prior film). Once the climax hits, Kirk grows and puts ship/mission before himself and becomes more consistent with the prior characterization while giving us a reason why the prior characterization would exist. From what we're hearing, Supes doesn't have that same growth in MoS.

Pretty much; and I'm one that hated the new "Star Trek" until I saw it.  Then the rebooting made sense.
 
2013-06-14 10:57:12 AM

yves0010: Yes, it is a "Batman Begins" of the Superman films but it is very much worth it.


Has anyone else noticed a trend of this happening in all the movies now? James Bond, Star Trek, Superman.... reboot a franchise and make the bad guy an all knowing prognosticator that is 5 steps ahead of everyone, including the protagonist.

It worked once, now Hollywood is going to play it out to death before moving on to something else.
 
2013-06-14 10:57:34 AM

Rwa2play: I guess I'm the only one that gets agitated because they've miscast Lois twice in the movies while they got it right in "Smallville".


Its honestly not really miscast, that's too harsh of a word. Just she's not as strong as an actor as the rest of them.

But really, go read the wiki and see who they almost thought about for Lois....Kristen Stewert..

Ugh that would have been horrible
 
2013-06-14 11:00:23 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Rwa2play: I guess I'm the only one that gets agitated because they've miscast Lois twice in the movies while they got it right in "Smallville".

Its honestly not really miscast, that's too harsh of a word. Just she's not as strong as an actor as the rest of them.

But really, go read the wiki and see who they almost thought about for Lois....Kristen Stewert..

Ugh that would have been horrible


Good Christ, a woman much too young for the role with dead eyes?
 
2013-06-14 11:00:42 AM
I still haven't decided whether or not I'm going to pay to see this in the theater. I'm not a huge fan of Superman or Zack Snyder (thought 300 and Watchmen were okay, but not great). But I'm conflicted because the trailers made it look so damn good.

On another note, I saw This Is The End last night, and it was genuinely laugh-out-loud funny. So if you're lukewarm on MoS, I'd recommend that this weekend.
 
2013-06-14 11:01:04 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: reboot a franchise and make the bad guy an all knowing prognosticator that is 5 steps ahead of everyone, including the protagonist.


That's never happened before in film:

www.empireonline.com

www.aceshowbiz.com
jamesbond007.net
 
2013-06-14 11:01:48 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: yves0010: Yes, it is a "Batman Begins" of the Superman films but it is very much worth it.

Has anyone else noticed a trend of this happening in all the movies now? James Bond, Star Trek, Superman.... reboot a franchise and make the bad guy an all knowing prognosticator that is 5 steps ahead of everyone, including the protagonist.

It worked once, now Hollywood is going to play it out to death before moving on to something else.


Uhh that villain was in the second batman and Star Trek and third James Bond of the craig era. It's just a type of villain really
 
2013-06-14 11:02:08 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Rwa2play: I guess I'm the only one that gets agitated because they've miscast Lois twice in the movies while they got it right in "Smallville".

Its honestly not really miscast, that's too harsh of a word. Just she's not as strong as an actor as the rest of them.

But really, go read the wiki and see who they almost thought about for Lois....Kristen Stewert..

Ugh that would have been horrible


Until I read your post, I honestly did not think that a worse portrayal of Lois Lane than Ms. Kate Bosworth's was possible. The idea of Kristen Stewart portraying the character was evidently so horrible that my mind -- twisted and evil as it already is -- could not conceive of it. Truly, movie studio executives are devoid of reason and humanity.
 
2013-06-14 11:03:59 AM

QT_3.14159: I really liked it. But that review did voice what was bothering me about it. Superman wasn't going out of his way to protect anyone or move fights out of populated areas. While it was mostly just an excuse for destroying more skyscrapers, it did seem wrong.

Overall, though I did really love it. It really honed in on the alien/sci-go aspect of it. And it was really entertaining.


That actually makes me want to see the movie more, especially considering this sentence: "See, everyone else in Zod's army has been beaten and banished, but General Zod lives on and so, of course, he and Superman duke it out in what, to everyone's credit,  is the very best super-hero fight I've ever seen, just a marvel of spectacle."

Not so much for the disaster porn element, but for the fact that this is actually Superman in a super hero fight.  A real, actual challenge.  A real existential threat.  Something that might actually be such a threat to either himself, or the world (I don't know, haven't seen it) that he doesn't have the leisure of worrying at every turn about collateral damage.

If Superman can save the day and still have time to make sure no one is hurt in the process, the threat wasn't that grave.  We've had enough films about him foiling real estate schemes or overcoming his inner-struggle.  This is Superman in a real outer-struggle, which if I"m not mistaken is something a lot of people have been asking to see in the movies.
 
2013-06-14 11:03:59 AM

Dimensio: IdBeCrazyIf: Rwa2play: I guess I'm the only one that gets agitated because they've miscast Lois twice in the movies while they got it right in "Smallville".

Its honestly not really miscast, that's too harsh of a word. Just she's not as strong as an actor as the rest of them.

But really, go read the wiki and see who they almost thought about for Lois....Kristen Stewert..

Ugh that would have been horrible

Until I read your post, I honestly did not think that a worse portrayal of Lois Lane than Ms. Kate Bosworth's was possible. The idea of Kristen Stewart portraying the character was evidently so horrible that my mind -- twisted and evil as it already is -- could not conceive of it. Truly, movie studio executives are devoid of reason and humanity.


I would've said Kate Beckinsale myself.
 
2013-06-14 11:05:35 AM

RexTalionis: HST's Dead Carcass: reboot a franchise and make the bad guy an all knowing prognosticator that is 5 steps ahead of everyone, including the protagonist.

That's never happened before in film:

[www.empireonline.com image 355x400]

[www.aceshowbiz.com image 490x360]
[jamesbond007.net image 315x331]


Save for Kaiser, the others took place after Batman did it with the Joker. Since the Joker, the movies have been portraying super duper baddies that can accurately predict how the good guys will act and react to any given situation and it requires the good guys to do something completely against their nature to win the day , which is really all the bad guys want them to do in the first place.
 
2013-06-14 11:06:14 AM

burndtdan: This is Superman in a real outer-struggle, which if I"m not mistaken is something a lot of people have been asking to see in the movies.


I should add...

Or at least that's what the review made it sound like.
 
2013-06-14 11:06:28 AM

Dimensio: Truly, movie studio executives are devoid of reason and humanity.


Now you understand than when mixed with coke, it explains much of movie history
 
2013-06-14 11:07:02 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Dimensio: Truly, movie studio executives are devoid of reason and humanity.

Now you understand than when mixed with coke, it explains much of movie history


*nods approvingly*
 
2013-06-14 11:09:14 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: Save for Kaiser, the others took place after Batman did it with the Joker. Since the Joker, the movies have been portraying super duper baddies that can accurately predict how the good guys will act and react to any given situation and it requires the good guys to do something completely against their nature to win the day , which is really all the bad guys want them to do in the first place.


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-14 11:10:42 AM
Here's the problem:

And then we got to The Battle of Metropolis, and I truly, genuinely started to feel nauseous at all the Disaster Porn.

Rather than come up with interesting villans, the filmmakers double down on the disaster porn.

What was the last action movie that had a memorable villan? Dark Knight (2008)?
 
2013-06-14 11:11:22 AM

RexTalionis: HST's Dead Carcass: Save for Kaiser, the others took place after Batman did it with the Joker. Since the Joker, the movies have been portraying super duper baddies that can accurately predict how the good guys will act and react to any given situation and it requires the good guys to do something completely against their nature to win the day , which is really all the bad guys want them to do in the first place.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 304x380]


You're too good. But, at least I know you know what I mean. It's a recent trend with an old trope.
 
2013-06-14 11:12:20 AM

thornhill: Here's the problem:

And then we got to The Battle of Metropolis, and I truly, genuinely started to feel nauseous at all the Disaster Porn.


Yeah, it's akin to Halle Berry showing the twins in "Swordfish" because they paid her to do it.  Not because it's relevant to the story.
 
2013-06-14 11:12:42 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: RexTalionis: HST's Dead Carcass: reboot a franchise and make the bad guy an all knowing prognosticator that is 5 steps ahead of everyone, including the protagonist.

That's never happened before in film:

[www.empireonline.com image 355x400]

[www.aceshowbiz.com image 490x360]
[jamesbond007.net image 315x331]

Save for Kaiser, the others took place after Batman did it with the Joker. Since the Joker, the movies have been portraying super duper baddies that can accurately predict how the good guys will act and react to any given situation and it requires the good guys to do something completely against their nature to win the day , which is really all the bad guys want them to do in the first place.


I thought the lets call him villain in the new st was not a step ahead and if he was it was very conceivable as he'd been in the secret program that made everything. James knew what he was doing practically at every step but never why, which is clever writing IMO.

But for the other two, its hard to say the Bond villain wasn't similar to the joker. I liked his personality and goals enough that I didn't care.
 
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