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(International Business Times)   Thank you for pre-ordering the Xbox One However, in order to complete your order you must first agree to waive your rights to file a class action lawsuit against Microsoft in case of massive console failures   (ibtimes.com) divider line 149
    More: PSA, Xbox, Microsoft, class-action, consumer advocacy, waive, system console, objectivity  
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4676 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Jun 2013 at 12:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 10:52:46 PM  
Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.
 
2013-06-14 12:03:00 AM  
Microsoft Announcer: We're here in Tuscaloosa, Alabama to see if we can convince Playstation 4 users to switch to the new XBox One.
Microsoft Announcer to Random Person:  We have NCAA 13 on the PS4 and XBox One side by side.  If you can identify which system is the XBox One, we'll give you a free XBox One!
Random Person:  It's the one that locked up.
Microsoft Announcer:  Fark!
Random Person:  It's cool, keep it.
 
2013-06-14 12:07:10 AM  

You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.


I've been playing XB since 360 was released. For the first time since PS2 first dropped, I have my name on a pre-order list for a Playstation product.
 
2013-06-14 12:09:10 AM  

You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure.


^^^This.
 
2013-06-14 12:09:50 AM  
Hahahahahahah. No, thanks.
 
2013-06-14 12:34:17 AM  
This is neither new (it's been in their EULAs for a while) nor is it likely enforceable

/PlayStaion Network also has this in it's terms
//As does Steam
 
2013-06-14 12:35:50 AM  
its*
 
2013-06-14 12:40:37 AM  
That's what happens when you let the bean counters instead of engineers run the show.  Good-bye Microsoft.
 
2013-06-14 12:44:40 AM  
It's not going to matter. Most people except "HARD CORE" don't give a crap about evasive agreements or always on camera in the house...because their either don't know or don't care.
 
2013-06-14 12:46:28 AM  

the_sidewinder: This is neither new (it's been in their EULAs for a while) nor is it likely enforceable

/PlayStaion Network also has this in it's terms
//As does Steam


I agree, but I'm afraid you're wrong about not being enforceable. In Prima Paint Corp v. Flood & Conklin Mfg. Co, the Supreme Court ruled that the arbitration clause must be respected first, and in Compucredit Corp. v. Greenwood, the Supreme Court held that the binding arbitration clauses authorized by the Federal Arbitration Act are sacrosanct.

Every company is including this on everything. We have to change this, and I'm not getting the XBox One for any number of other reasons (none of them financial, apart from the fact that the PS4 is cheaper and has more power), but singling out Microsoft on this is unfair.
 
2013-06-14 12:47:15 AM  

hardinparamedic: You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.

I've been playing XB since 360 was released. For the first time since PS2 first dropped, I have my name on a pre-order list for a Playstation product.


Thank you for helping to pay my salary.
 
2013-06-14 12:47:24 AM  
I'm not buying an Xbone.  How fail is it, that MSFT didn't think people would call it an "Xbone?"
 
2013-06-14 12:51:18 AM  

captainktainer: I agree, but I'm afraid you're wrong about not being enforceable. In Prima Paint Corp v. Flood & Conklin Mfg. Co, the Supreme Court ruled that the arbitration clause must be respected first, and in Compucredit Corp. v. Greenwood, the Supreme Court held that the binding arbitration clauses authorized by the Federal Arbitration Act are sacrosanct.


So would that indicate that should arbitration fail, a class action could be started? How big of a hurdle would that be?
 
2013-06-14 12:57:09 AM  

You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.


Umm, even in the PS3 contract, right now it says that you cant file a class action.
PS4= DRM by EA instead of MS, like that's an improvement
PS4= subscription only for online gaming, like XBL

frankly, the more I see of this console war, the more I love my PC.
 
2013-06-14 12:59:03 AM  

OgreMagi: Thank you for helping to pay my salary.


You're welcome. I work hard to help people on Welfare. :)
 
2013-06-14 01:00:28 AM  
thankfully Microsoft builds quality products, and this is just to protect them from vulture trial lawyers that collect 80 plus percent from payouts from frivolous suits
 
2013-06-14 01:01:04 AM  

the_sidewinder: captainktainer: I agree, but I'm afraid you're wrong about not being enforceable. In Prima Paint Corp v. Flood & Conklin Mfg. Co, the Supreme Court ruled that the arbitration clause must be respected first, and in Compucredit Corp. v. Greenwood, the Supreme Court held that the binding arbitration clauses authorized by the Federal Arbitration Act are sacrosanct.

So would that indicate that should arbitration fail, a class action could be started? How big of a hurdle would that be?


The current understanding is that because the arbitration is binding, you can't challenge the results unless there's evidence of gross negligence. It's sickening, and it's one of the many reasons neither Scalia nor Thomas should have been allowed on the Court - and why the Federal Arbitration Act should never have been approved. Allowing customers to sign away their rights in a boilerplate agreement is... beyond wrong.
 
2013-06-14 01:01:49 AM  

hardinparamedic: OgreMagi: Thank you for helping to pay my salary.

You're welcome. I work hard to help people on Welfare. :)


Don't annoy me.  I can have your Playstation disabled remotely.

/not really, but I've used that threat successfully on my younger family members
 
2013-06-14 01:02:14 AM  

DeArmondVI: thankfully Microsoft builds quality products, and this is just to protect them from vulture trial lawyers that collect 80 plus percent from payouts from frivolous suits


Tell me you're taking the piss out of us. Please.
 
2013-06-14 01:03:11 AM  

firefly212: that you cant file a class action.


Most states have a law that says you can't wave away your rights from a EULA.
 
2013-06-14 01:04:54 AM  

DeArmondVI: thankfully Microsoft builds quality products, and this is just to protect them from vulture trial lawyers that collect 80 plus percent from payouts from frivolous suits


I was part of one class action lawsuit and won.  It was against Bank of America for some dubious banking practice.  For example, processing debits before deposits and slapping on lots of overdraft charges that resulted (they got me for a lot of money with that).

So my winnings from the lawsuit was .... a coupon good for discounted banking services at Bank of America.
 
2013-06-14 01:07:15 AM  

captainktainer: DeArmondVI: thankfully Microsoft builds quality products, and this is just to protect them from vulture trial lawyers that collect 80 plus percent from payouts from frivolous suits

Tell me you're taking the piss out of us. Please.


I hear that Edgar Allen Poe slaw is the best you can buy on the market
 
2013-06-14 01:09:07 AM  

OgreMagi: hardinparamedic: You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.

I've been playing XB since 360 was released. For the first time since PS2 first dropped, I have my name on a pre-order list for a Playstation product.

Thank you for helping to pay my salary.


My God! You assemble PS4s? Do you supervise the Morlocks?
 
2013-06-14 01:09:26 AM  

captainktainer: The current understanding is that because the arbitration is binding, you can't challenge the results unless there's evidence of gross negligence. It's sickening, and it's one of the many reasons neither Scalia nor Thomas should have been allowed on the Court - and why the Federal Arbitration Act should never have been approved. Allowing customers to sign away their rights in a boilerplate agreement is... beyond wrong.


Now I'm curious as to how enforceable it is in other countries, because that sounds like being on the end of a paddle being used to navigate poop creek
 
2013-06-14 01:10:01 AM  

optikeye: It's not going to matter. Most people except "HARD CORE" don't give a crap about evasive agreements or always on camera in the house...because their either don't know or don't care.


Is this a theme lately?

Most people are ignorant or apathetic, so they deserve to be screwed over by whoever can?
 
2013-06-14 01:10:54 AM  

captainktainer: arbitration is binding


Why is arbitration being brought up?

That's not what the EULA says...it simply says you 'agree' to this' and sign away your rights..there's nothing in the MS thing that mentions arbitration and that shouldn't be brought up, as it's not part of the contract.

Many state have laws that say you can not sign away your rights for using a product. "Arbitration" are usually lawyer on lawyer things. One on One cases.
 
2013-06-14 01:13:58 AM  

gnosis301: OgreMagi: hardinparamedic: You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.

I've been playing XB since 360 was released. For the first time since PS2 first dropped, I have my name on a pre-order list for a Playstation product.

Thank you for helping to pay my salary.

My God! You assemble PS4s? Do you supervise the Morlocks?


I'm a Unix system administrator for SCEA.
 
2013-06-14 01:14:53 AM  

optikeye: firefly212: that you cant file a class action.

Most states have a law that says you can't wave away your rights from a EULA.


But the class would be a federal action, so the state law wouldn't be applicable, it would default to federal law, which says that you've got to honor the arbitration unless you can prove gross negligence in the arbitration itself.
 
2013-06-14 01:17:07 AM  

optikeye: That's not what the EULA says...it simply says you 'agree' to this' and sign away your rights..there's nothing in the MS thing that mentions arbitration and that shouldn't be brought up, as it's not part of the contract.


Yes, it is what the EULA says

"Terms include binding arbitration with class action waiver to resolve disputes."

It even says this in the article
 
2013-06-14 01:19:40 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-14 01:20:26 AM  

optikeye: It's not going to matter. Most people except "HARD CORE" don't give a crap about evasive agreements or always on camera in the house...because their either don't know or don't care.


The Playstation is also $100 cheaper. Being considerably more expensive than its main rival, and with Nintendo still around to siphon off a lot of the more casual players, the Xbox needs hardcore gamers more than they need the Xbox. Furthermore, if you're a parent shopping for Christmas presents, are you going to spend an extra $100 for a system that has gotten this much bad press? A system that has a creepy mandatory camera that your dumbass kid will most certainly forget to turn toward the damn wall? Any one of the issues with the Xbone would maybe not doom it, but all at the same time? They're farked.
 
2013-06-14 01:20:50 AM  

the_sidewinder: optikeye: That's not what the EULA says...it simply says you 'agree' to this' and sign away your rights..there's nothing in the MS thing that mentions arbitration and that shouldn't be brought up, as it's not part of the contract.

Yes, it is what the EULA says

"Terms include binding arbitration with class action waiver to resolve disputes."

It even says this in the article


This EULA shiat needs to be fixed.  We've had judges rule they aren't binding.  We've had judges rule they are binding.  We need it settled.  And hopefully the ruling is "an EULA doesn't mean shiat legally, biatches."

/yes, I'd love to hear a judge say those exact words in a courtroom
 
2013-06-14 01:23:00 AM  

firefly212: it would default to federal law, which says that you've got to honor the arbitration unless you can prove gross negligence in the arbitration itself.


There's nothing in the EULA that mentioned Arbitration. You are confusing signing a EULA with arbitration. Those are two wildly differently things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration

In Arbitration it stills goes to court and the other side will have someone--an arbitrators  to be defend their position. Again there's nothing about arbitrators  in the Xbox agreement.
 
2013-06-14 01:24:38 AM  

OgreMagi: yes, I'd love to hear a judge say those exact words in a courtroom


You and me both. The terms in EULAs tend to be far too one sided
 
2013-06-14 01:24:46 AM  

DeArmondVI: thankfully Microsoft builds quality products, and this is just to protect them from vulture trial lawyers that collect 80 plus percent from payouts from frivolous suits


No backwards compatibility.
No game sharing.
Always-on connection for single player games.
A camera that reads facial expressions, which is a required piece of hardware.
 
2013-06-14 01:25:24 AM  

the_sidewinder: "Terms include binding arbitration with class action waiver to resolve disputes."


Okay...fark them. That's wrong and probably illegal in some states for 'click and go' EULA.
 
2013-06-14 01:32:15 AM  

the_sidewinder: OgreMagi: yes, I'd love to hear a judge say those exact words in a courtroom

You and me both. The terms in EULAs tend to be far too one sided


The last time I read an EULA for a game, I learned that the only guarantee was the disk worked.  No, I don't mean the game on the disk.  I mean that you could read the disk, but the contents of the disk were not guaranteed to do a damn thing, not even execute.  Basically, if I could get a directory listing, their obligation for my $50 was met.

I once tried to return a game.  The installer crashed on three different computers.  The store refused to refund or exchange for a different game.  They would only exchange it for the same game.
 
2013-06-14 01:34:26 AM  
I will be buying a PS4. Does Microsoft not realize they have competitors?
 
2013-06-14 01:35:39 AM  
"Always on camera" + minors + game console in bedroom = SUPERBIGBADCLASSACTIONLAWSUIT COMING MICROSOFT'S WAY.  Ain't no EULA gonna sterilize Microsoft from that one.
 
2013-06-14 01:36:24 AM  

JesusJuice: I will be buying a PS4. Does Microsoft not realize they have competitors?


Microsoft went so long owning something like 90% of the desktop market that I think they are still stuck in the "we're the only game in town" mindset.  It's infected their other divisions.
 
2013-06-14 01:38:09 AM  
Keep a child around to click on "I agree".  Minors can not legally enter into a contract.  Be sure to leave the room when he/she does it.
 
2013-06-14 01:43:33 AM  

OgreMagi: hardinparamedic: OgreMagi: Thank you for helping to pay my salary.

You're welcome. I work hard to help people on Welfare. :)

Don't annoy me.  I can have your Playstation disabled remotely.

/not really, but I've used that threat successfully on my younger family members


I told my nephew that we regularly record everything the PS3 Eye is pointed at and sends the video to his parents.  Including the times it he was jerking off

/he's not very bright
//neither is his father
///I'm the evil uncle
 
2013-06-14 01:44:41 AM  

OgreMagi: Keep a child around to click on "I agree".  Minors can not legally enter into a contract.  Be sure to leave the room when he/she does it.


The always on camera can record that they did it.
 
2013-06-14 01:45:50 AM  

sendtodave: OgreMagi: Keep a child around to click on "I agree".  Minors can not legally enter into a contract.  Be sure to leave the room when he/she does it.

The always on camera can record that they did it.


Good.  Proof that a minor clicked it, so there is no legal contract.
 
2013-06-14 01:55:09 AM  
optikeye
It's not going to matter. Most people except "HARD CORE" don't give a crap about evasive agreements or always on camera in the house...because their either don't know or don't care


Well, once the first videos of them playing games in the buff appear on the internet, they might start to care.

Shiat, I should have paid attention to the news; hadn't heard that about the cameras until this week.
Someone else already registered "xboners.com" three weeks ago.
 
2013-06-14 01:58:26 AM  
MS: "Just let it happen, it'll be over soon."
 
2013-06-14 01:59:06 AM  

firefly212: You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.

Umm, even in the PS3 contract, right now it says that you cant file a class action.
PS4= DRM by EA instead of MS, like that's an improvement
PS4= subscription only for online gaming, like XBL

frankly, the more I see of this console war, the more I love my PC.


And there it is.
 
2013-06-14 01:59:48 AM  
"In court, justice is blind," he said. "In arbitration, justice is not blind. It's not even a case of one eye peeking out. The blindfold is over her forehead."

Link
 
2013-06-14 02:03:27 AM  
WII U SUCKAS
Nintendo's too cheap to hire lawyers
 
2013-06-14 02:04:06 AM  

ScaryBottles: firefly212: You Idiots: Probably the nail in the coffin for me on this one. Looking at PS4 now for sure. Been on Xbl for 10 years. Goodbye Bill. RIP.

Umm, even in the PS3 contract, right now it says that you cant file a class action.
PS4= DRM by EA instead of MS, like that's an improvement
PS4= subscription only for online gaming, like XBL

frankly, the more I see of this console war, the more I love my PC.

And there it is.


Eh, at this point it is a valid comment. I see little reason to go console over dumping that cash into my pc at this point. I'm still open; I do prefer the simplicity of a console.

Ymmv.
 
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