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(Yahoo)   New Rare Earth mines to open in U.S., and I Just Want to Celebrate   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 72
    More: Interesting, United States, naval mines, green technologies, rare earth metals, Project Exploration, price bubbles, U.S. Geological Survey  
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10511 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 6:41 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 04:51:13 PM  
Get ready... they'll light up the sky, for sure.
 
2013-06-13 05:13:33 PM  
I'd love to change the world

/but I don't know what to do
 
2013-06-13 05:16:58 PM  

downstairs: Get ready... they'll light up the sky, for sure.


They're naturally Smokey, which slowed Temptations for deeper cuts.
 
2013-06-13 06:45:32 PM  
Song title jokes are all well and good, but I applaud this decision. We need more resource production within our own borders.
Next step: actually using the resources to manufacture goods.
 
2013-06-13 06:47:06 PM  
Can we keep the thorium for bladed weapons?
 
2013-06-13 06:49:51 PM  
I hate to drag y'all halfway around the reactance circle, but this story is way lighter than the tantalum tale.
 
2013-06-13 06:50:30 PM  
This IS a good thing - if you like electric cars.  Otherwise ... the Syrian War thread is down a couple links.  That's what depending on oil will get you.
 
2013-06-13 06:50:37 PM  
At the time, I guess China thought it was a grand idea to throttle the supply of rare earths, nothing but profit and a little saber-rattling thrown in to boot. Except their show of strength basically freaked out every major economy in the world, which means that everyone started scrambling to re-open domestic sources of production, with the added bonus that the various armed forces now had a stake in the situation.
 
2013-06-13 07:01:06 PM  
Green technologies such as electric cars, wind turbines, solar panels...rely on rare-earth metals.

None of these statements are true.

1. Electric cars--motors can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.  Modern batteries don't use rare earths (NiMH are a thing of the past)
2. Wind turbines can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.
3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.
 
2013-06-13 07:01:52 PM  
China controls 95 percent of the world's rare-earth supply. The key to this monopoly isn't an abundance of rare-earth deposits, but its expertise in processing ore into oxides and pure metal.


I guess "not giving a shiat about the environmental damage you cause" is a form of "expertise"?
 
2013-06-13 07:07:22 PM  
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
Guess who's the first North Africa linguist on the block with his own gate? This guy. Yup. That's right.
 
2013-06-13 07:08:56 PM  
What a poorly written article.
 
2013-06-13 07:12:29 PM  
They are used in SMPS.  There is a complex number that characterizes magnetic materials, the first term having to do with volumetric efficency, the second speed, or depending on your perspective, forgetfulness.
 
2013-06-13 07:14:02 PM  
AndreMA
I guess "not giving a shiat about the environmental damage you cause" is a form of "expertise"?

You think running a totalitarian dictatorship is easy?
 
2013-06-13 07:14:46 PM  

Hollie Maea: Green technologies such as electric cars, wind turbines, solar panels...rely on rare-earth metals.

None of these statements are true.

1. Electric cars--motors can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.  Modern batteries don't use rare earths (NiMH are a thing of the past)
2. Wind turbines can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.
3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.


So using field windings are more efficient than using a permanent magnet? I'm no expert, but I would think that the extra Ohmic heating (extra windings), additional power to generate the field, extra electronics and control, larger volume requirements due to more windings, additional complexity of design and additional labor required to build such systems are what make permanent magnet motors desireable.

Of course I don't build such systems. So I am just speculating.
 
2013-06-13 07:14:48 PM  
My nephew lives in a large manufacturing city in China. The river has a thick crust and the air is even chunkier.
 
2013-06-13 07:15:42 PM  

Hollie Maea: Green technologies such as electric cars, wind turbines, solar panels...rely on rare-earth metals.

None of these statements are true.

1. Electric cars--motors can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.  Modern batteries don't use rare earths (NiMH are a thing of the past)
2. Wind turbines can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.
3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.


upload.wikimedia.org

Disagrees with #1.

\you would need RE's for the capacitors and diodes for the inverter though
 
2013-06-13 07:17:31 PM  

Hollie Maea: 3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.


The most efficient and reliable solar panels do use rare earth metals, because silicon as-is has crap efficiency. Hello iridium.

Those LEDs backlighting your laptop/tablet/smartphone? Rare earth metals again. Might have a silicon substrate but the p-n junctions are indium and gallium based.

Rare Earth Metals are needed to produce LCD screens, medical equipment, and more.

Hi, I work in this field of industry. You're wrong on all counts.
 
2013-06-13 07:18:04 PM  

meat0918: Can we keep the thorium for bladed weapons?


Why would you want a radioactive knife?
 
2013-06-13 07:20:59 PM  
One more reason to get moving on asteroid mining.
 
2013-06-13 07:23:09 PM  

khyberkitsune: Hollie Maea: 3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.

The most efficient and reliable solar panels do use rare earth metals, because silicon as-is has crap efficiency. Hello iridium.

Those LEDs backlighting your laptop/tablet/smartphone? Rare earth metals again. Might have a silicon substrate but the p-n junctions are indium and gallium based.

Rare Earth Metals are needed to produce LCD screens, medical equipment, and more.

Hi, I work in this field of industry. You're wrong on all counts.


You expect a Space Nutter to have a grasp of reality? Pah. Pseudo-science with a side of fantasy, maybe.

I'm astonished no one has come in here wearing a fishbowl over their head and proclaiming that since we will mine asteroids, no one needs to open mines on Earth.
 
2013-06-13 07:23:18 PM  
I'm not one of those eco warrior types, but rare earth mining is seriously nasty.
 
2013-06-13 07:25:27 PM  
I hope one day can our environment can be at the level of China's, and this is a vital step in that direction.
We must ensure to repeal any left-over environmental regulations that haven't already been erased as well.
Those mines are pretty toxic and I'm worried about the workers, so maybe work on lowering their rights while you're at it.
 
2013-06-13 07:27:34 PM  
FTFA:  thorium, the most radioactive element on the planet

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-13 07:29:26 PM  
Alright. Stickin' it to The Chinks Man.
 
2013-06-13 07:30:25 PM  

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: Hollie Maea: Green technologies such as electric cars, wind turbines, solar panels...rely on rare-earth metals.

None of these statements are true.

1. Electric cars--motors can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.  Modern batteries don't use rare earths (NiMH are a thing of the past)
2. Wind turbines can be made just as easily without permanent magnets.
3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.

So using field windings are more efficient than using a permanent magnet? I'm no expert, but I would think that the extra Ohmic heating (extra windings), additional power to generate the field, extra electronics and control, larger volume requirements due to more windings, additional complexity of design and additional labor required to build such systems are what make permanent magnet motors desireable.

Of course I don't build such systems. So I am just speculating.


They use the permanent magnet DC motors because they can be used for regenerative braking. You use the motor as a generator and use the counter magnetic force to slow the vehicle, converting your momentum back into electric current. This is then used to charge the battery back up. You can see how this would increase mileage in stop and go traffic.

Also, most electrical engineers don't know how a VFD works (or don't undersand that they don't have to do the calculations for one if it is an off the shelf model: the maker of it has them in the manuals), but know that they can use a rheostat to regulate voltage to a DC motor to vary the rate that is turns. This also doesn't waste as much energy as other methods since the other half of the voltage divider is wired back into the battery.

DC is also a little safer at high voltages and current then AC, just in case you have some sort of damage to the car's wiring.
 
2013-06-13 07:32:12 PM  

Ker_Thwap: I'm not one of those eco warrior types, but rare earth mining is seriously nasty.


THIS so very much. But unless we want to hand 100% of the rare earth controls to the Chinese this is a thing which we will have to do.
 
2013-06-13 07:33:19 PM  

khyberkitsune: Hollie Maea: 3. The most common solar panels (Silicon based) use zero rare earths.

The most efficient and reliable solar panels do use rare earth metals, because silicon as-is has crap efficiency. Hello iridium.

Those LEDs backlighting your laptop/tablet/smartphone? Rare earth metals again. Might have a silicon substrate but the p-n junctions are indium and gallium based.

Rare Earth Metals are needed to produce LCD screens, medical equipment, and more.

Hi, I work in this field of industry. You're wrong on all counts.


I'm wrong because laptops use rare earths?  I didn't farking say anything about laptops.  Also, look up the word "rely".  You don't rely on something if you can make it just as well out of something else.  Also, not a single one of the elements you named is a "rare earth"

WTF?
 
2013-06-13 07:35:08 PM  

Quantum Apostrophe: You expect a Space Nutter to have a grasp of reality?


Sure...I'm the one without a grasp on reality, not the guy who thinks Iridium and Gallium are "rare earths"
 
2013-06-13 07:39:54 PM  

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: So using field windings are more efficient than using a permanent magnet? I'm no expert, but I would think that the extra Ohmic heating (extra windings), additional power to generate the field, extra electronics and control, larger volume requirements due to more windings, additional complexity of design and additional labor required to build such systems are what make permanent magnet motors desireable.


Not field windings.  I am referring to induction motors, which do not have field windings.  For electric cars, they are close enough to PMAC motors that people are still arguing over which is better.  About half of the manufacturers use Induction motors, the other half use PMAC.  Tesla uses Induction motors.  My Think City uses them. I bought one for the EV conversion I am using.  On the other hand, Nissan Leafs use PM and I think Chevy Volts do as well.  They have a lower power factor, but that doesn't make them much less efficient--and in fact they can often be run more efficient since you can more easily manipulate the field strength, which is difficult to do with permanent magnet motors.
 
2013-06-13 07:41:11 PM  

Hollie Maea: Also, not a single one of the elements you named is a "rare earth"


I bet ten to one you're relying upon some crappy outdated list of 17 'rare earth' metals so-named because of the difficulty in actually finding them in pure form, made by the morons at the IUPAC.

OTOH I work in a rare-earth mine, and what we consider rare-earth metals are the metals which are very low in actual concentration compared to the more common 'rare-earth' materials, which are actually in great supply compared to the others we mine/refine/use.

gozar_the_destroyer: This also doesn't waste as much energy as other methods since the other half of the voltage divider is wired back into the battery.


Wrong. Without equal or greater voltage to the source, the power simply won't get back. Same reason you can't charge a 1.6V Nickel-Zinc battery with a 1.2V Nickel-Cadmium or Nickel Metal Hydride charger.

The power is 100% wasted unless you're routing that power to lower-voltage devices. It simply can't go back to the battery at drastically-cut voltages.
 
2013-06-13 07:46:06 PM  

khyberkitsune: I bet ten to one you're relying upon some crappy outdated list of 17 'rare earth' metals so-named because of the difficulty in actually finding them in pure form, made by the morons at the IUPAC.

OTOH I work in a rare-earth mine, and what we consider rare-earth metals are the metals which are very low in actual concentration compared to the more common 'rare-earth' materials, which are actually in great supply compared to the others we mine/refine/use.


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to use your personal definitions for things.  I guess I'm back to being "wrong on all counts".

By the way, look up the market share for different types of solar panels.  The factory I work at made 200,000 solar cells today.  None of them used "rare earths" by ANYONE'S definition.  The vast majority of solar cells produced use the same basic device structure.  So explain again how solar "relies" on rare earths?
 
2013-06-13 07:49:01 PM  

khyberkitsune: Hollie Maea: Also, not a single one of the elements you named is a "rare earth"

I bet ten to one you're relying upon some crappy outdated list of 17 'rare earth' metals so-named because of the difficulty in actually finding them in pure form, made by the morons at the IUPAC.

OTOH I work in a rare-earth mine, and what we consider rare-earth metals are the metals which are very low in actual concentration compared to the more common 'rare-earth' materials, which are actually in great supply compared to the others we mine/refine/use.

gozar_the_destroyer: This also doesn't waste as much energy as other methods since the other half of the voltage divider is wired back into the battery.

Wrong. Without equal or greater voltage to the source, the power simply won't get back. Same reason you can't charge a 1.6V Nickel-Zinc battery with a 1.2V Nickel-Cadmium or Nickel Metal Hydride charger.

The power is 100% wasted unless you're routing that power to lower-voltage devices. It simply can't go back to the battery at drastically-cut voltages.


Voltage produced by the generators is higher than the voltage of the battery. You don't have to run a DC motor with its max voltage to make it work.
 
2013-06-13 07:49:06 PM  

gozar_the_destroyer: They use the permanent magnet DC motors because they can be used for regenerative braking. You use the motor as a generator and use the counter magnetic force to slow the vehicle, converting your momentum back into electric current. This is then used to charge the battery back up. You can see how this would increase mileage in stop and go traffic.


Most electric motors, including induction motors, can utilize regenerative braking.  Really the only ones that can't are series wound brushed DC.  But no significant manufacturers use those.  They are, however, the most commonly used in DIY conversions, because the controllers are super cheap.
 
2013-06-13 07:49:23 PM  

Ker_Thwap: I'm not one of those eco warrior types, but rare earth mining is seriously nasty.


But, since I'm assuming you like using your computer/cell phone/iPad, you're going to have to live with it.
 
2013-06-13 07:51:33 PM  
Texas has an s-load of the more valuable rare earth elements, in a place called Barringer Hill, beneath Buchanan lake.
 
2013-06-13 07:52:25 PM  
FTFA: " China controls 95 percent of the world's rare-earth supply. The key to this monopoly is...its expertise in processing ore into oxides and pure metal. "

bullshiat. It's because China is willing to process the ore without any regard to the environmental impact or the fact that they're poisoning their own people doing it.
 
2013-06-13 07:56:38 PM  

FabulousFreep: Ker_Thwap: I'm not one of those eco warrior types, but rare earth mining is seriously nasty.

THIS so very much. But unless we want to hand 100% of the rare earth controls to the Chinese this is a thing which we will have to do.


Yup, and finally people are getting the message that China is doing so much environmental damage we better start manufacturing here where it can be done responsibly.

/Go as green as you can and it still won't make a dent until China cleans up its act.
 
2013-06-13 07:58:02 PM  

AndreMA: China controls 95 percent of the world's rare-earth supply. The key to this monopoly isn't an abundance of rare-earth deposits, but its expertise in processing ore into oxides and pure metal.

I guess "not giving a shiat about the environmental damage you cause" is a form of "expertise"?


Yep. If you wanna drive that new Tesla, and feel good about your carbon footprint, you're gonna have to dig a few gopher holes.
 
2013-06-13 08:05:42 PM  

SordidEuphemism: Song title jokes are all well and good, but I applaud this decision. We need more resource production within our own borders.
Next step: actually using the resources to manufacture goods.


Yes, because Americans are well known for their delight at paying ten times as much to have a product that was manufactured on US shores, and equally well known for their eagerness to lineup for poorly-paid manufacturing jobs.

/manufacturing switched to China for a reason
//switching it back is nigh-on impossible
 
2013-06-13 08:08:34 PM  

Hollie Maea: The factory I work at made 200,000 solar cells today. None of them used "rare earths" by ANYONE'S definition.


And I'll bet 10:1 they have horrible efficiencies.

Oh, and your IUPAC outdated 17th-century definition needs to be updated with the current science of today. This isn't MY personal definition , this is fact.

/you know who else relies upon 17th-century teachings?
//Almost any moronic religion today
 
2013-06-13 08:09:23 PM  
Those damned Mines freak me out more than clowns...
 
2013-06-13 08:12:02 PM  

AndreMA: China controls 95 percent of the world's rare-earth supply. The key to this monopoly isn't an abundance of rare-earth deposits, but its expertise in processing ore into oxides and pure metal.

I guess "not giving a shiat about the environmental damage you cause" is a form of "expertise"?


The key to that monopoly was just that they were doing it way cheaper (partly lack of regulation in HSE, partly low COL, partly low wages, etc.) so it wasn't worth the hassle to mine them elsewhere until they started to try and abuse that monopoly.
 
2013-06-13 08:15:30 PM  
Isn't North Korea rife with rare earth minerals? Or is it just a barren wasteland?.
 
2013-06-13 08:15:46 PM  

khyberkitsune: Hollie Maea: The factory I work at made 200,000 solar cells today. None of them used "rare earths" by ANYONE'S definition.

And I'll bet 10:1 they have horrible efficiencies.


Nope.  The only ones with higher efficiencies are super expensive ones designed for space applications.  And a single other company that specializes in high cost high efficiency panels.  But theirs are ALSO Silicon and don't use "rare earths" (although by your definition, I suppose Silver is a "rare earth").

Oh, and your IUPAC outdated 17th-century definition needs to be updated with the current science of today. This isn't MY personal definition , this is fact.

Words have meanings.  If you can show me somewhere besides "the guys who work in my mine" that lists Gallium or Indium as "rare earths" then you will sort of have a point.  But not really.
 
2013-06-13 08:17:23 PM  

Hollie Maea: Quantum Apostrophe: You expect a Space Nutter to have a grasp of reality?

Sure...I'm the one without a grasp on reality, not the guy who thinks Iridium and Gallium are "rare earths"


How do you prevent the inside of the fishbowl from fogging up?

Beep beep boop.

Space Control to Asteromining ship 5, correct course by 5 space degrees towards Musk Central Control.

i1.ytimg.com

Roger that, Space Control. We're hauling 16 tons of asteroid and what do we get?
 
2013-06-13 08:37:15 PM  
Maybe we could work out a better deal with China, or we'll start getting stingy with our helium.
 
2013-06-13 08:39:35 PM  

Ego edo infantia cattus: meat0918: Can we keep the thorium for bladed weapons?

Why would you want a radioactive knife?


I have Orcs to outfit.
 
2013-06-13 08:42:51 PM  

khyberkitsune: The most efficient and reliable solar panels do use rare earth metals, because silicon as-is has crap efficiency.


The highest-efficiency panels are silicon multijunction, and don't use rare earths.  The most efficient general-application panels are silicon single junction, and don't use rare earths.  More recent thin-film panel types like CIGS are less than half as efficient per area.  To the best of my knowledge, there are no panels using rare earths that could be called "most efficient"-- even the very best of them are below generic single-junction silicon panels, and the best multi-junction silicon are roughly three times as efficient as the best panels using rare earths that I am aware of.

So... you got a link?
 
2013-06-13 08:45:31 PM  
Tom_Slick:
Yup, and finally people are getting the message that China is doing so much environmental damage we better start manufacturing here where it can be done responsibly.

/Go as green as you can and it still won't make a dent until China cleans up its act.


What indication is there that it would be done responsibly? Why would companies do a 180 from their stated purpose and go along with profit-harming regulations instead of using armies of lobbyists to dispose of them?
And unless you live in a mine, you've "gone green" in this regard. You can drink water and even go swimming without worry.
 
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