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(Wisconsin Gazette)   Christian driver alleges Indian "rain god" on Oklahoma license plates violates separation of church and state   (wisconsingazette.com) divider line 252
    More: Ironic, Oklahoma, Indians, United States courts of appeals, Keith Cressman, bus drivers, rains  
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9778 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 4:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 12:02:01 PM
So, he's stupid?
 
2013-06-13 12:05:21 PM
Sorry, Christians, you all set the precedent that "Traditional" or "de minimis" references are innocuous and not violative of the first amendment. Guess you didn't think your cunning plan all the way through.
 
2013-06-13 12:10:20 PM
www.tax.ok.gov


F*cking idiot.
 
2013-06-13 12:14:15 PM
WTF? It's a farking statue, not a religious icon.
 
2013-06-13 12:16:34 PM

kronicfeld: Sorry, Christians, you all set the precedent that "Traditional" or "de minimis" references are innocuous and not violative of the first amendment. Guess you didn't think your cunning plan all the way through.


Well, that and the goddamn thing is "...rain arrow" and not "...rain god." It is a picture of a statue that depicts a traditional myth about a guy shooting an arrow to the sky as a hope to make it rain and end a drought. By this clown's own reasoning, this doesn't violate his Christian rule of "no god before me" or "no other god" as it isn't a god thing at all. He's claiming something that isn't there.
 
2013-06-13 12:21:54 PM

Blues_X: F*cking idiot.


I was going to make a similar comment, however that plate costs extra (and presumably was the one he had that was mentioned in the article). The standard plate has the Indian on it.

I agree with him, all standard plates should be devoid of religious depictions/declarations. The standard plate should be the plates from old (like the ones from the Honeycomb boxes). If you want to have religion on your plate, I have no problem with the state making some extra money off of you, and offering a plate to suit your needs. However, if the state is going to offer an "In God We Trust" plate, it needs to offer "Allah Akbar", "Praise Vishnu", and "Ramen", too.
 
2013-06-13 12:25:17 PM
I hope he wins, and I hope the judge rules that all religious symbolism must be prohibited on plates.

because goddamn, it would be hilarious to see the fallout from that.
 
2013-06-13 12:31:11 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Blues_X: F*cking idiot.

I was going to make a similar comment, however that plate costs extra (and presumably was the one he had that was mentioned in the article). The standard plate has the Indian on it.

I agree with him, all standard plates should be devoid of religious depictions/declarations. The standard plate should be the plates from old (like the ones from the Honeycomb boxes). If you want to have religion on your plate, I have no problem with the state making some extra money off of you, and offering a plate to suit your needs. However, if the state is going to offer an "In God We Trust" plate, it needs to offer "Allah Akbar", "Praise Vishnu", and "Ramen", too.


Yeah, I hate to admit it, but he may have a point there. Its a shame because it is actually a pretty cool image.
 
2013-06-13 12:31:26 PM

dr_blasto: So, he's stupid?


No, he's a Methodist Pastor in Oklahoma. He just doesn't know any better.

It's like the episode of Family Guy where Peter's retarded and goes into the ladies room kicking all the stall doors open.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:08 PM

gilgigamesh: Its a shame because it is actually a pretty cool image.


Agreed.
 
2013-06-13 12:47:38 PM

Aarontology: I hope he wins, and I hope the judge rules that all religious symbolism must be prohibited on plates.

 
2013-06-13 12:55:38 PM
That license plate is awesome.
 
2013-06-13 01:01:08 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com

Welcome to heaven. I have a few questions before you may enter the Kingdom of God.

Did you honor God, try to live a good life and treat people like you'd want to be treated?

"Yes"

Okay then! It looks like everything checks out, Welcome to hea....Oh my. Hold on a sec...

"What?"

Uh oh. I'm being told that in 2013 you drove a Chevy Pickup with an Oklahoma license plate depicting a heathen idol.
Gosh, I'm sorry, but you'll need to spend eternity roasting in the lake of fire. Have a nice day.
 
2013-06-13 01:56:01 PM

Aarontology: I hope he wins, and I hope the judge rules that all religious symbolism must be prohibited on plates.

because goddamn, it would be hilarious to see the fallout from that.


Heh.
 
2013-06-13 02:21:44 PM
wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com


/oblig
 
2013-06-13 02:25:50 PM
Yet another card carrying member of the American Society of Sniveling Half-wits Offended by Literally Everything in Sight
 
2013-06-13 02:29:10 PM

zedster: [wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com image 500x363]

/oblig


I just wish the little hand-prints were done in a darker rust-red color.
 
2013-06-13 02:33:16 PM
You know we took almost all of their land, let them have their freaking rain god.
 
2013-06-13 02:42:50 PM
I don't want to be one of those guys whining about the use of the Ironic tag, but this isn't ironic at all. This douche does not believe in the separation of church and state at all.  He wants the government to promote and enforce Christian morality.

So there's no contradiction at all here.  When this guy wants to take  a non-Christian symbol off a license plate, and leave Christian symbols on them, those are not incompatible statements in his belief system.
 
2013-06-13 02:47:45 PM

Blues_X: [www.tax.ok.gov image 850x406]


F*cking idiot.


Indiana has these same plates.  But, I am hoping that the guy wins, because, when he does, someone can go and directly use that decision to get the "In God We Trust" plates pulled as well then.

Honestly, I would not be surprised if actually this guy WASN'T offended necessarily by the rain god one's, but, figured he could get the IGWT one's pulled easier by getting this one pulled first.
 
2013-06-13 02:51:28 PM

dletter: But, I am hoping that the guy wins, because, when he does, someone can go and directly use that decision to get the "In God We Trust" plates pulled as well then.


The "In God We Trust" ones are optional (for a fee). The "Raid God" ones are the default plates.

dletter: Honestly, I would not be surprised if actually this guy WASN'T offended necessarily by the rain god one's, but, figured he could get the IGWT one's pulled easier by getting this one pulled first.


A quick Google search indicates that he's a Methodist Pastor. I'm guessing his outrage is genuine.
 
2013-06-13 02:54:40 PM

Gecko Gingrich: Raid


*Rain
 
2013-06-13 02:54:52 PM

Ambivalence: WTF? It's a farking statue, not a religious icon.


That reminds me, I need some stuff for my garden.
 
2013-06-13 02:55:25 PM
From what I see in TFA he's not saying anything about separation of church and state and it has nothing to do with putting or leaving Christian symbols on the plate.
 He's saying...the 'Sacred Rain Arrow' image on the standard Oklahoma license plate conveys a particularized message that others are likely to understand and to which he objects.


In other words, the plate makes a statement that he disagrees with and that there should be some remedy.

I agree with him. There should be a basic licence plate with numbers and validation stickers and that's about it. All the icons and other crap should be upgrades that you pay for.

Now, let's talk about the "In God We Trust" on the currency...
 
2013-06-13 02:58:45 PM
B-b-b-but Real American ChristiansTM believe that the separation of church and state is Satanic.
 
2013-06-13 02:59:18 PM

Barfmaker: From what I see in TFA he's not saying anything about separation of church and state and it has nothing to do with putting or leaving Christian symbols on the plate.
 He's saying...the 'Sacred Rain Arrow' image on the standard Oklahoma license plate conveys a particularized message that others are likely to understand and to which he objects.


In other words, the plate makes a statement that he disagrees with and that there should be some remedy.

I agree with him. There should be a basic licence plate with numbers and validation stickers and that's about it. All the icons and other crap should be upgrades that you pay for.


FTFA:
The appeals court's decision says Cressman "adheres to historic Christian beliefs" and believes it is a sin "to honor or acknowledge anyone or anything as God besides the one true God."

So he'd have kept his pie hole shut if it depicted a cross instead--at the expense of non-Christians.  Fark him.
 
2013-06-13 03:04:24 PM

doyner: FTFA:
The appeals court's decision says Cressman "adheres to historic Christian beliefs" and believes it is a sin "to honor or acknowledge anyone or anything as God besides the one true God."

So he'd have kept his pie hole shut if it depicted a cross instead--at the expense of non-Christians. Fark him.


Yes he's definitely a hypocrite, but his argument is still valid and should be applied.
 
2013-06-13 03:06:41 PM
You know, since they're constantly screaming we're oppressing them anyway, even when we're not, couldn't we just go ahead and actually oppress these fairy-tale believing idiots? Might as well commit the crime if you've already been convicted.
 
2013-06-13 03:08:54 PM

vernonFL: [1.bp.blogspot.com image 500x331]

Welcome to heaven. I have a few questions before you may enter the Kingdom of God.

Did you honor God, try to live a good life and treat people like you'd want to be treated?

"Yes"

Okay then! It looks like everything checks out, Welcome to hea....Oh my. Hold on a sec...

"What?"

Uh oh. I'm being told that in 2013 you drove a Chevy Pickup with an Oklahoma license plate depicting a heathen idol.
Gosh, I'm sorry, but you'll need to spend eternity roasting in the lake of fire. Have a nice day.


Why are the Pearly Gates always shown as being made out of gold?
 
2013-06-13 03:09:26 PM
Yet he's ok with the government assigning him a number to be displayed?

Shouldn't his license plate be a massively overcrowded John McNaughton painting depicting Obama and Satan using Nancy Reagan's back as a Parcheesi board while they pull a suspension bridge on her, but, it's all going to work out because Kung Fu Jesus and Rail-Splittin' Lincoln are swooping in to 'rule them out of order?'
 
2013-06-13 03:10:19 PM

dr_blasto: kronicfeld: Sorry, Christians, you all set the precedent that "Traditional" or "de minimis" references are innocuous and not violative of the first amendment. Guess you didn't think your cunning plan all the way through.

Well, that and the goddamn thing is "...rain arrow" and not "...rain god." It is a picture of a statue that depicts a traditional myth about a guy shooting an arrow to the sky as a hope to make it rain and end a drought. By this clown's own reasoning, this doesn't violate his Christian rule of "no god before me" or "no other god" as it isn't a god thing at all. He's claiming something that isn't there.


Well regardless its still a separation of church and state issue. If my state license plate showed Noah's ark I'd be annoyed.
 
2013-06-13 03:10:59 PM
You want a first amendment case?

Here: sue the government for forcing paganism upon you for having the days of the week named after the Old Germanic gods (along with one Roman god)

Its stupid as shiat but I could actually see someone doing that
 
2013-06-13 03:11:08 PM
If he wins could this be used to get 'In God We Trust' off of money?
 
2013-06-13 03:15:02 PM

cman: You want a first amendment case?

Here: sue the government for forcing paganism upon you for having the days of the week named after the Old Germanic gods (along with one Roman god)

Its stupid as shiat but I could actually see someone doing that


Not to mention those heathen names the months have! That's it! I'm not paying my taxes in any month named after a Greek goddess of whores.
 
2013-06-13 03:17:00 PM

Krymson Tyde: If he wins could this be used to get 'In God We Trust' off of money?


No ceremonial Deism is okay.
Ceremonial paganism isn't.
 
2013-06-13 03:19:47 PM

quickdraw: dr_blasto: kronicfeld: Sorry, Christians, you all set the precedent that "Traditional" or "de minimis" references are innocuous and not violative of the first amendment. Guess you didn't think your cunning plan all the way through.

Well, that and the goddamn thing is "...rain arrow" and not "...rain god." It is a picture of a statue that depicts a traditional myth about a guy shooting an arrow to the sky as a hope to make it rain and end a drought. By this clown's own reasoning, this doesn't violate his Christian rule of "no god before me" or "no other god" as it isn't a god thing at all. He's claiming something that isn't there.

Well regardless its still a separation of church and state issue. If my state license plate showed Noah's ark I'd be annoyed.


If you're going to sue, wouldn't it be a good idea to not make up the title of the thing in the first place? It'd be, as in your example, having Noah's Ark on the license plate, but you're suing because they put some god's ark on there.

The guy probably has an argument, but he's still a dumbass.
 
2013-06-13 03:22:16 PM
You know the key to any great rain dance?


Dont stop dancing till it rains!!
 
2013-06-13 03:39:45 PM
Oklahoma finally does something right & some righteous Oklahoman has to come along and muck it up. Here's what the older plates involved:

i.imgur.com

Obviously that is a custom plate, but the standard issue plates had the same logo in the middle (I just really liked this particular plate because hey, cool song). Anyway. The symbol on the left is the same symbol on the state flag, which is an obvious nod to the state's Native American history, which was not "Christian," but rooted in their own belief system.

So should they change the state flag, too?
 
2013-06-13 03:42:07 PM
I call shenanigans.  That license plate does not depict Rob McKenna.
 
2013-06-13 03:42:50 PM
sounds reasonable to me.

States need to stop putting doodads on license plates anyhow.  Just make them solid black background with white letters.  Nice and readable from a distance that way.
 
2013-06-13 03:43:15 PM

Di Atribe: Obviously that is a custom plate, but the standard issue plates had the same logo in the middle (I just really liked this particular plate because hey, cool song). Anyway. The symbol on the left is the same symbol on the state flag, which is an obvious nod to the state's Native American history, which was not "Christian," but rooted in their own belief system.


So should they change the state flag, too? 

I'd bet a fair amount of money that the guy doesn't know that.
 
2013-06-13 03:44:45 PM

MrBallou: You know, since they're constantly screaming we're oppressing them anyway, even when we're not, couldn't we just go ahead and actually oppress these fairy-tale believing idiots? Might as well commit the crime if you've already been convicted.


randazza.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-13 03:46:11 PM

serial_crusher: sounds reasonable to me.

States need to stop putting doodads on license plates anyhow.  Just make them solid black background with white letters.  Nice and readable from a distance that way.


Boring. If people are willing to pay more for a little sprucing up, what do you care?
 
2013-06-13 03:47:43 PM

serial_crusher: States need to stop putting doodads on license plates anyhow. Just make them solid black background with white letters. Nice and readable from a distance that way.


I agree.
 
2013-06-13 03:51:13 PM

Di Atribe: Boring. If people are willing to pay more for a little sprucing up, what do you care?


Where I live (Maryland), you can buy different types of plates that use the money you've paid to support certain programs. For example, if you buy the "Farm" plates, money goes to promote farming. If you buy the "Bay" plates, money goes to support protecting the Chesapeake Bay.

The problem is, the number one polluter of the Bay are farms, and the farmers hate the environmentalists for limiting the fertilizer they can use and for all the regulations they have to follow. So they work against each other.
 
2013-06-13 03:52:35 PM

Di Atribe: Boring. If people are willing to pay more for a little sprucing up, what do you care?


Uh, oh...someone rockin' this on her truck? :P

txdmv.gov
 
2013-06-13 03:52:37 PM

Di Atribe: Obviously that is a custom plate, but the standard issue plates had the same logo in the middle (I just really liked this particular plate because hey, cool song). Anyway. The symbol on the left is the same symbol on the state flag, which is an obvious nod to the state's Native American history, which was not "Christian," but rooted in their own belief system.


I don't know much about the Osage Nation, but I don't get the impression that their shield is a religious thing.  It's basically a flag.
Sure, it's kind of weird that Oklahoma would have some other nation's flag on their license plates, but has nothing to do with anybody's religion.
 
2013-06-13 03:55:43 PM

Di Atribe: serial_crusher: sounds reasonable to me.

States need to stop putting doodads on license plates anyhow.  Just make them solid black background with white letters.  Nice and readable from a distance that way.

Boring. If people are willing to pay more for a little sprucing up, what do you care?


The last time I saw an elderly woman driving erratically and dangerously, I pulled out my phone to call the police and report her, but she was far enough away at the time that I couldn't get a good view of her plate.  Better contrast means more visibility at distance means dangerous old lady doesn't crash through your farmers market.
 
2013-06-13 03:59:06 PM
Wait till he get a load of the pagan symbology on the back of his money:

www.jesus-is-savior.com
 
2013-06-13 03:59:11 PM

dr_blasto: quickdraw: dr_blasto: kronicfeld: Sorry, Christians, you all set the precedent that "Traditional" or "de minimis" references are innocuous and not violative of the first amendment. Guess you didn't think your cunning plan all the way through.

Well, that and the goddamn thing is "...rain arrow" and not "...rain god." It is a picture of a statue that depicts a traditional myth about a guy shooting an arrow to the sky as a hope to make it rain and end a drought. By this clown's own reasoning, this doesn't violate his Christian rule of "no god before me" or "no other god" as it isn't a god thing at all. He's claiming something that isn't there.

Well regardless its still a separation of church and state issue. If my state license plate showed Noah's ark I'd be annoyed.

If you're going to sue, wouldn't it be a good idea to not make up the title of the thing in the first place? It'd be, as in your example, having Noah's Ark on the license plate, but you're suing because they put some god's ark on there.

The guy probably has an argument, but he's still a dumbass.


I figured the dumbassery was too obvious to make a point of. But, to be fair, I assume most people are idiots until proven otherwise.

/lowered expectations ftw!
 
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