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(New York Magazine)   "That overconfident delusion is the subject of Ramesh Ponnuru's long National Review essay pleading with conservatives to stop believing their own bullsh*t"   (nymag.com) divider line 59
    More: Obvious, Ramesh Ponnuru, National Review, Ponnuru, obamacare, public opinions, Jonathan Cohn, Max Baucus  
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2352 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Jun 2013 at 11:34 AM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 11:04:18 AM
Needs more Unlikely tag.
 
2013-06-13 11:06:48 AM
I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.
 
2013-06-13 11:24:52 AM
From the article:

Four out of ten Americans don't realize the law hasn't been struck down.

If this is true, America's problem has nothing to do with politics or health care.  The problem is that as a whole you are dumb as f*ck.
 
2013-06-13 11:29:02 AM

EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.


What BS does it say is true?
 
2013-06-13 11:34:33 AM
Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!
 
2013-06-13 11:37:00 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!


Kansas is attempting to prove this theory.
 
2013-06-13 11:37:52 AM

mrshowrules: The problem is that as a whole you are dumb as f*ck.


That is true.  We're too concerned about efforts to suppress the minority vote, when we should be focused on suppressing the moron vote.
 
2013-06-13 11:39:17 AM

DamnYankees: EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.

What BS does it say is true?


If you believe that Americans being "frightened and confused" by the law necessarily causes support for it to dip, then "the BS is true".

Of course, that falls into the same trap - making an assumption (the above fallacy, and also conservatives believing that all of America is as upset with the PPACA as they are), then believing it to be 100% true despite reality's cold shock.
 
2013-06-13 11:41:15 AM

Trivia Jockey: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!

Kansas is attempting to prove this theory.


I guess that depends on your idea of success... If your idea of "success" is defined as getting the most conservative politicians elected then yes, Kansas will experience "success". If "success" is defined at establishing policies that will benefit the social and economic well being of the constituents then no, Kansas will not experience any "success".
 
2013-06-13 11:45:30 AM
"A few Republicans who believe that these effects should not be put off: that Americans should suffer them so as to see the failure of Obamacare with their own eyes. Only then will they turn against the law and its supporters with the requisite passion to undo it."


After all, Repubs themselves are models of introspection and detached self-criticism whenever their shiat doesn't work.
 
2013-06-13 11:47:04 AM
People were complaining about Medicare and Medicaid back when they were initially created. They said the program was way too ambitious and would have to be pared back. They said the feds were going to abandon the program to the states. They said doctors would never participate in those programs. They said the programs would collapse from being unable to control their costs. They said they would lead us on a slippery slope to socialism.

None of those predictions came true. Medicare and Medicaid have only expanded since their creation because they are popular. The federal government has never pulled its funding of Medicaid. More people are applying to become doctors than ever before. Medicare and Medicaid have been more successful at controlling costs than private insurers. America has not plunged into a socialist dystopia.

ObamaCare is not going to be flawless, but it is not going to collapse in a bloody heap either.

/hat trick to The Incidental Economist
 
2013-06-13 11:47:17 AM

Trivia Jockey: mrshowrules: The problem is that as a whole you are dumb as f*ck.

That is true.  We're too concerned about efforts to suppress the minority vote, when we should be focused on suppressing the moron vote.


I'd like to see public opinion polling with basic competency questions.  Before recording an opinion you should have to answer basic grade 6 questions about math, geography, science, history.  Maybe 3 questions.  You can them right, then provide your opinion to the polling company. Or, collect everyone's opinion but than provide the summary of idiots versus normal people.
 
2013-06-13 11:47:21 AM
Believing your own bullshiat is absolutely paramount to all conservative ideologies. If you don't have the bullshiat you would be forced to actually look at, make decisions based on reality, and no one wants to do  that.
 
2013-06-13 11:49:39 AM

Trivia Jockey: mrshowrules: The problem is that as a whole you are dumb as f*ck.

That is true.  We're too concerned about efforts to suppress the minority vote, when we should be focused on suppressing the moron vote.


Yup, and I apologize sincerely for it.  Turns out allowing morons to vote was a bad call, but it's too late now, and people react poorly to the word 'pogrom'.
 
2013-06-13 11:51:31 AM

max_pooper: Trivia Jockey: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!

Kansas is attempting to prove this theory.

I guess that depends on your idea of success... If your idea of "success" is defined as getting the most conservative politicians elected then yes, Kansas will experience "success". If "success" is defined at establishing policies that will benefit the social and economic well being of the constituents then no, Kansas will not experience any "success".



In this context, "success" means putting the majority of its populace into economic dispair and causing a large number of its intelligent, right-thinking people to move to another state.
 
2013-06-13 11:58:20 AM

Trivia Jockey: That is true. We're too concerned about efforts to suppress the minority vote, when we should be focused on suppressing the moron vote.


"I've said it before and I'll say it again: democracy simply doesn't work."
 
2013-06-13 11:58:37 AM
Stop wallowing in it, too
 
2013-06-13 11:59:17 AM

sadbad: Believing your own bullshiat is absolutely paramount to all conservative ideologies. If you don't have the bullshiat you would be forced to actually look at, make decisions based on reality, and no one wants to do  that.


Feeding BS to the rubes is one thing. Creating an impenetrable reality bubble for its supporters to live in was a great short-term strategy for the GOP.

But it's not clear how you'd do that without falling into the trap they did: keep it up long enough and eventually you get a crop of politicians / party leaders that believe the BS. This doesn't work out well for them. E.g. Romney and even Rove seemed to truly believe the "skewed polls" BS; perhaps his campaign could have done better had it been able to honestly assess its weaknesses.
 
2013-06-13 11:59:32 AM

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!


Only through purity can we achieve victory. Only through achieving a true homogenized Randian state can we as a people truly realize our potential and be ushered into the promised utopia. Together we must reject this cancer of compromise and expel it from our political body. This darkness that haunts us and preys on the weak among us must be banished. We must not be afraid of the masses without strength, without vision who will criticize our greatness. To those that oppose us we must not hesitate to strike them down and not look back, for doubt is the first symptom of faltering. We can not falter, we must not fail, only then can we achieve perfection.

/am I doing it right?
 
2013-06-13 12:00:16 PM
A hyperconservative in my office actually seems kind of miffed that our insurance plan wasn't impacted at all.
 
2013-06-13 12:04:05 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: had it been able to honestly assess its weaknesses.


That's impossible for psychopaths and narcissists.
 
2013-06-13 12:05:07 PM
"Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?
 
2013-06-13 12:06:53 PM

HotWingConspiracy: A hyperconservative in my office actually seems kind of miffed that our insurance plan wasn't impacted at all.


Well he can be grateful then because our plan sure as hell was impacted. Our rates went down. Damn you Oabma!!!!!!
 
2013-06-13 12:07:07 PM

HotWingConspiracy: A hyperconservative in my office actually seems kind of miffed that our insurance plan wasn't impacted at all.


The insurance plan I'm on today has seen premiums increase about 8% each year for the last seven years. Unless ObamaCare can travel back in time, it hasn't impacted my insurance yet.
 
2013-06-13 12:11:10 PM

Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?


Following the Grecian Formula?
 
2013-06-13 12:29:29 PM
Silly conservatives. Haven't you learned yet that you don't get high on your own supply?
 
2013-06-13 12:32:04 PM

EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.


The problem isn't whether it's true, the problem is that it's not marketable. Years ago, some republican governor (I forget who) said that the key to getting republicans elected is to hide from voters what you really think about issues. In other words, lie. The problem for republicans now is that their base hears the lies and think their darling has turned RINO and start gathering torches and pitchforks. The republican base is forcing republicans to be truthful and it is ROYALLY screwing them over with voters at large.

I have no problem with that.
 
2013-06-13 12:46:32 PM

DamnYankees: EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.

What BS does it say is true?


Well the article he cites is basically a giant dissertation on why Obamacare is bad and why Republicans need to replace it.  His only criticism of Republicans is in how much and how quickly they think it will explode.  And the fact that they think they can just sit on their hands until the status quo returns and everything will be fine.

Of course even the left agrees Obamacare is terrible.  I just hope it slowly destroys the insurance companies (which is also something he was predicting) so we can phase in single payer without having to destroy all those insurance jobs too quickly.
 
2013-06-13 12:50:20 PM
So far I am very happy about Obamacare, first my health insurance costs for the same coverage has not gone up for three years straight, the previous 3 years it went up every year, two of those years in double digits. Second I now have a child with a per-existing condition, I don't. Fear losing coverage for him.

/there is talk that our insurance costs will probably go down with the next renewal.
//lives in California.
 
2013-06-13 12:51:00 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Stop wallowing in it, too


They like wallowing. A trait they share with another, similar animal.
 
2013-06-13 12:54:01 PM

dehehn: Well the article he cites is basically a giant dissertation on why Obamacare is bad and why Republicans need to replace it. His only criticism of Republicans is in how much and how quickly they think it will explode. And the fact that they think they can just sit on their hands until the status quo returns and everything will be fine.

Of course even the left agrees Obamacare is terrible. I just hope it slowly destroys the insurance companies (which is also something he was predicting) so we can phase in single payer without having to destroy all those insurance jobs too quickly.


And doesn't even mention stuff like, say, DEATH PANELS.
 
2013-06-13 12:56:24 PM

Gyrfalcon: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Stop wallowing in it, too

They like wallowing. A trait they share with another, similar animal.


Geriatric Obtuse Porkers
 
2013-06-13 01:22:08 PM

Trivia Jockey: max_pooper: Trivia Jockey: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!

Kansas is attempting to prove this theory.

I guess that depends on your idea of success... If your idea of "success" is defined as getting the most conservative politicians elected then yes, Kansas will experience "success". If "success" is defined at establishing policies that will benefit the social and economic well being of the constituents then no, Kansas will not experience any "success".


In this context, "success" means putting the majority of its populace into economic dispair and causing a large number of its intelligent, right-thinking people to move to another state.


Don't forget "blame the Democrats" as the state slides into dysfunction.
 
2013-06-13 01:32:02 PM

Gyrfalcon: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Stop wallowing in it, too

They like wallowing. A trait they share with another, similar animal.


Needs moar lipstik!

Or was that the pitbull? Mama grizzly!?

/so confused
 
2013-06-13 01:41:59 PM

EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.


I love how you're a f*cking liar and have no qualms about lying.

People like you keep things interesting.
 
2013-06-13 01:51:08 PM

El Morro: EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.

I love how you're a f*cking liar and have no qualms about lying.

People like you keep things interesting.


Um thank you.  It's intelligent and sensitive people like you that make all the lying worthwhile.
 
2013-06-13 01:53:55 PM

Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?


Since Greece's financial problems are largely due to the fact that they are an agriculture and service based economy while being members of a federation whose monetary policies are set by countries with industrial based economies, it's kind of a stupid argument no matter what word they might have used.
 
2013-06-13 01:55:37 PM

El Morro: EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.

I love how you're a f*cking liar and have no qualms about lying.

People like you keep things interesting.

i1231.photobucket.com

 
2013-06-13 01:58:59 PM

CptnSpldng: Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?

Following the Grecian Formula?


Greece-y?
 
2013-06-13 01:59:39 PM

Serious Black: People were complaining about Medicare and Medicaid back when they were initially created. They said the program was way too ambitious and would have to be pared back. They said the feds were going to abandon the program to the states. They said doctors would never participate in those programs. They said the programs would collapse from being unable to control their costs. They said they would lead us on a slippery slope to socialism.

None of those predictions came true. Medicare and Medicaid have only expanded since their creation because they are popular. The federal government has never pulled its funding of Medicaid. More people are applying to become doctors than ever before. Medicare and Medicaid have been more successful at controlling costs than private insurers. America has not plunged into a socialist dystopia.

ObamaCare is not going to be flawless, but it is not going to collapse in a bloody heap either.

/hat trick to The Incidental Economist


My wife has phased out of accepting new Medicaid. It's actually quite a hassle getting providers to accept Medicaid. Some states might've made it unlawful to deny Medicaid clients, but my state doesn't.

I've told her that the problem is in the way Medicaid and Medicare are run (Tricare for the military, and the VA are the same issue).

Medicaid is NOT designed to get you healthy. It's designed to sustain you until you don't have to use it, or can't use it. The dickery done to Medicaid regulation and funding over the years ensures this. It's a pain in ass to be on Medicaid. It's supposed to be, because conservatives hate it and view it as free money for poor people. When you hear of "entitlement reform" regarding Medicaid, it's about making Medicaid an even bigger pain in the ass to get and stay on.

Medicare is around to keep you well enough until you croak. That's all it does. It's not a true, socialist health plan. It's a utility that's kept "good enough," so it works in spirit.

Tricare for the military? Same problem - it's designed to get a troop well enough to go back to work.

VA? Same thing - designed to keep a vet alive and functional, nothing more.

Getting more out of these systems requires either huge expansion for all of them, or a single payer system for everybody.
 
2013-06-13 02:01:00 PM

VictoryCabal: Silly conservatives. Haven't you learned yet that you don't get high on your own supply?


[TonyMontanaTheWorldIsYours.jpeg]
 
2013-06-13 02:02:24 PM

Ishidan: CptnSpldng: Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?

Following the Grecian Formula?

Greece-y?


farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2013-06-13 02:17:11 PM

CptnSpldng: Ishidan: CptnSpldng: Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?

Following the Grecian Formula?

Greece-y?

[farm7.staticflickr.com image 478x640]


A little derp'll do ya
 
2013-06-13 02:25:05 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: El Morro: EvilEgg: I love how it starts off saying of course the BS is true, but you shouldn't believe it.

I love how you're a f*cking liar and have no qualms about lying.

People like you keep things interesting.

[i1231.photobucket.com image 624x317]


Really stepped up a notch, didn't it?
 
2013-06-13 02:37:03 PM

Ishidan: CptnSpldng: Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?

Following the Grecian Formula?

Greece-y?


I suppose "Hellenic" would be too classically based...
 
2013-06-13 02:39:05 PM

Serpentile6: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Heresy from yet another RINO! Only by being even MORE conservative can success be assured!

Only through purity can we achieve victory. Only through achieving a true homogenized Randian state can we as a people truly realize our potential and be ushered into the promised utopia. Together we must reject this cancer of compromise and expel it from our political body. This darkness that haunts us and preys on the weak among us must be banished. We must not be afraid of the masses without strength, without vision who will criticize our greatness. To those that oppose us we must not hesitate to strike them down and not look back, for doubt is the first symptom of faltering. We can not falter, we must not fail, only then can we achieve perfection.

/am I doing it right?


Not quite.  You have to slip up about 2/3rds of the way through and forget to translate a word.

Otherwise it was perfect.
 
2013-06-13 03:21:58 PM
This Ramesh Ponnuru should have realised one critical fact before writing his article:

The Republican Party doesn't listen to brown people!
 
2013-06-13 03:41:58 PM

Gyrfalcon: Ishidan: CptnSpldng: Parthenogenetic: "Ponnuru gently warns that the failure might be slow to arrive, and perhaps not the Greece-esque national catastrophe conservatives have talked themselves into expecting."

Although "Greece-esque" conveyed the idea of a tumultuous fiscal crisis in a way that "Greek" probably would not, reading it was like chewing aluminum foil.  Anybody else?

Following the Grecian Formula?

Greece-y?

I suppose "Hellenic" would be too classically based...


Hellacious?
 
2013-06-13 03:44:28 PM

verbaltoxin: My wife has phased out of accepting new Medicaid. It's actually quite a hassle getting providers to accept Medicaid. Some states might've made it unlawful to deny Medicaid clients, but my state doesn't.


I'm not sure any states can make it unlawful, but providers aren't obligated to take Medicaid any more than they are other health insurance. A lot of docs won't take it, because Medicaid typically reimburses at a lower rate than private insurance and Medicare.  Some doctors sign up to get the extra business, others don't want to deal with the hassle.
 
2013-06-13 03:54:28 PM

verbaltoxin: Serious Black: People were complaining about Medicare and Medicaid back when they were initially created. They said the program was way too ambitious and would have to be pared back. They said the feds were going to abandon the program to the states. They said doctors would never participate in those programs. They said the programs would collapse from being unable to control their costs. They said they would lead us on a slippery slope to socialism.

None of those predictions came true. Medicare and Medicaid have only expanded since their creation because they are popular. The federal government has never pulled its funding of Medicaid. More people are applying to become doctors than ever before. Medicare and Medicaid have been more successful at controlling costs than private insurers. America has not plunged into a socialist dystopia.

ObamaCare is not going to be flawless, but it is not going to collapse in a bloody heap either.

/hat trick to The Incidental Economist

My wife has phased out of accepting new Medicaid. It's actually quite a hassle getting providers to accept Medicaid. Some states might've made it unlawful to deny Medicaid clients, but my state doesn't.

I've told her that the problem is in the way Medicaid and Medicare are run (Tricare for the military, and the VA are the same issue).

Medicaid is NOT designed to get you healthy. It's designed to sustain you until you don't have to use it, or can't use it. The dickery done to Medicaid regulation and funding over the years ensures this. It's a pain in ass to be on Medicaid. It's supposed to be, because conservatives hate it and view it as free money for poor people. When you hear of "entitlement reform" regarding Medicaid, it's about making Medicaid an even bigger pain in the ass to get and stay on.

Medicare is around to keep you well enough until you croak. That's all it does. It's not a true, socialist health plan. It's a utility that's kept "good enough," so it works in spirit.

Tricare for th ...


I would never argue that Medicare or Medicaid are flawless systems. I'm not even sure it's possible to build a flawless health care and insurance system. I've been reading book after book and article after article for years now, and the only thing I've been firmly convinced of is the need for any health care and insurance system to be 100% universal. After that, there are so many paths we can walk down that it's impossible to figure out if X works better than Y. Hell, some of that determination of whether X is better than Y depends on what definition of better we're using.
 
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