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(Uproxx)   It was only a matter of time before defense lawyers started demanding the NSA hand over phone records they believe would exonerate their clients. Consider the floodgates opened   (uproxx.com) divider line 101
    More: Interesting, NSA, telephone tapping, defense lawyers, Florida Area, MetroPCS Communications Inc.  
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6803 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 12:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 10:59:52 AM  
Get out the popcorn and a comfy chair.
 
2013-06-13 11:05:17 AM  
...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.
 
2013-06-13 11:12:03 AM  
Does the NSA also have white house phone records for Sept. 11, 2012?
 
2013-06-13 11:18:18 AM  

johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.


Opens some avenues for appeal in the event this happens, though.  I'm not sure the NSA can just say "no" if the judiciary orders them to turn over requests relating to a given phone number.
 
2013-06-13 11:26:16 AM  
THAT'S NOT HOW THE NSA WORKS

/morbo
 
2013-06-13 11:28:02 AM  
NSA - No.

Defense lawyer - Fine.  Judge, we have been denied potentially exculpatory evidence, move to dismiss the case.

Judge - Well...damn Constitution.
 
2013-06-13 11:32:28 AM  
Um, what records does the NSA have that were not previously available through your phone company? Since the phone company gave the NSA the records in the first place, I don't see what new evidence this could possibly bring to light.
 
2013-06-13 11:35:45 AM  

nmrsnr: Um, what records does the NSA have that were not previously available through your phone company? Since the phone company gave the NSA the records in the first place, I don't see what new evidence this could possibly bring to light.


I think the phone company is required (and internet companies) to keep your records for 6 months only.  That might be a factor.
 
2013-06-13 11:44:43 AM  

nmrsnr: Um, what records does the NSA have that were not previously available through your phone company? Since the phone company gave the NSA the records in the first place, I don't see what new evidence this could possibly bring to light.


Someone didn't rtfa.  His phone company doesn't have records back that far, but it appears the NSA might.
 
2013-06-13 12:12:09 PM  
Classified.

Next?
 
2013-06-13 12:24:19 PM  

Diogenes: Classified.

Next?


THIS
 
2013-06-13 12:26:00 PM  

Diogenes: Classified.

Next?


That's probably what will happen
 
2013-06-13 12:27:09 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Does the NSA also have white house phone records for Sept. 11, 2012?


Those were destroyed in WTC #7
 
2013-06-13 12:27:27 PM  
You have a right to see the evidence being presented against you.
 
2013-06-13 12:27:38 PM  
Can they help me find my keys?
 
2013-06-13 12:28:03 PM  

Diogenes: Classified.

Next?


One could easily argue the classified status given the nature and scope of the records
 
2013-06-13 12:30:19 PM  

"It might be a sincere attempt to clear his client, or it might be the single most audacious delaying tactic a lawyer has ever employed. "


Even it's a delaying tactic, they lawyer is supposed to do what's best for his client. At least he's trying something and especially if the defendant is innocent as he claims.

 
2013-06-13 12:30:22 PM  
Good. Harass them into oblivion.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:46 PM  

johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.


It will still potentially scuttle a lot of criminal cases, if the defense can convince the jury that the prosecution (the government) is withholding exoneratory evidence. At very least, it's a headache for prosecutors.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:49 PM  

nmrsnr: Um, what records does the NSA have that were not previously available through your phone company? Since the phone company gave the NSA the records in the first place, I don't see what new evidence this could possibly bring to light.


And here it is, your moment of zen
 
2013-06-13 12:31:47 PM  

Warlordtrooper: You have a right to see the evidence being presented against you.


The Goverment can't also withhold evidence that may help your case.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:32 PM  

Diogenes: Classified.

Next?


That would be:

I_C_Weener: Defense lawyer - Fine. Judge, we have been denied potentially exculpatory evidence, move to dismiss the case.

Judge - Well...damn Constitution.

 
2013-06-13 12:34:44 PM  
skinink

"It might be a sincere attempt to clear his client, or it might be the single most audacious delaying tactic a lawyer has ever employed. "


Even it's a delaying tactic, they lawyer is supposed to do what's best for his client. At least he's trying something and especially if the defendant is innocent as he claims.


I think if even if your client is guilty as hell I think you can be disbarred for not representing your client fairly.
 
2013-06-13 12:34:57 PM  

ladyfortuna: And here it is, your moment of zen


img.gawkerassets.com
 
2013-06-13 12:35:13 PM  
I was telling a friend of min last night someone was going to do this..
 
2013-06-13 12:37:33 PM  
I can see this revelation causing a billion problems.

Suppose we learn that they monitor internet traffic, as well. Then police agencies across the country will want to know why they can't also have that data to catch child pron lovers and pirates.
 
2013-06-13 12:40:45 PM  

doczoidberg: I can see this revelation causing a billion problems.

Suppose we learn that they monitor internet traffic, as well. Then police agencies across the country will want to know why they can't also have that data to catch child pron lovers and pirates.


Just wait until the police want to start classifying the evidence against you too.
 
2013-06-13 12:42:16 PM  

Warlordtrooper: You have a right to see the evidence being presented against you.


Except if you are an "enemy combatant" on trial at Gitmo.
 
2013-06-13 12:42:59 PM  

skinink: "It might be a sincere attempt to clear his client, or it might be the single most audacious delaying tactic a lawyer has ever employed. "
Even it's a delaying tactic, they lawyer is supposed to do what's best for his client. At least he's trying something and especially if the defendant is innocent as he claims.


Just wait until the divorce attorneys get in on the act.
 
2013-06-13 12:43:36 PM  

vudukungfu: Good. Harass them into oblivion.


I think the NSA has some deep pockets.  Not like it's going to go out of business anytime soon.
 
2013-06-13 12:48:52 PM  

Elandriel: johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.

Opens some avenues for appeal in the event this happens, though.  I'm not sure the NSA can just say "no" if the judiciary orders them to turn over requests relating to a given phone number.


This text is now purple: johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.

It will still potentially scuttle a lot of criminal cases, if the defense can convince the jury that the prosecution (the government) is withholding exoneratory evidence. At very least, it's a headache for prosecutors.


I agree, headache for prosecutors and defendants, but the NSA won't care one bit.
 
2013-06-13 12:49:05 PM  
I keep hearing people saying that they don't care about the NSA spying on them because they're not significant. You have to think beyond yourself. What about the next Martin Luther? The next Joan of Arc? The next Martin Luther King Junior? The next John F. Kennedy? The next John Lennon? The next George Washington?

That's what's so insidious about this -- They're spying on EVERYBODY -- Terrorists and scoundrels, sure. But also America's thinkers, philosophers, teachers, lawyers, politicians, judges, reformers, leaders, and yes all you plumbers, construction workers, and cubicle dwellers, too. Just because you can't think big doesn't mean the government should stop other people from doing so.

Remember, Barack Obama was a "community organizer" before he was a politician. That's a code word for "rabble rouser."  Now the government has the ability to instantly detect these "rabble rousers" and do what? Help them them? Ignore them? Or prevent them from becoming the next Martin Luther, the next John Lennon, or the next president?

Just because you don't care about your personal privacy doesn't mean there isn't a reason to care about the concept of personal privacy.
 
2013-06-13 12:49:30 PM  
Apres moi, le deluge
 
2013-06-13 12:51:04 PM  

johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.


For freedoms and security due to a secret interpretation of the patriot act that does not include doing anything helpful with it.
 
2013-06-13 12:54:55 PM  
First, what is MetroPCS, and  WHY do they not keep records? My daughter has a pre-paid phone, and I can go online and view her call history.

Second...Although I believe that the NSA has been doing no-no's and keeping secrets, I'm pretty sure this guy's phone records did not make their desk nor would they still have access.
 
2013-06-13 12:56:50 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Does the NSA also have white house phone records for Sept. 11, 2012 10, 2001?

Fixed that for you.
 
2013-06-13 12:58:50 PM  

doczoidberg: I can see this revelation causing a billion problems.

Suppose we learn that they monitor internet traffic, as well. Then police agencies across the country will want to know why they can't also have that data to catch child pron lovers and pirates.


That's the FBI's domain, and they do it, and they arrest people all the time.

/Don't bother clearing your browser history
//It's too late
 
2013-06-13 01:00:02 PM  

take_flight: First, what is MetroPCS, and  WHY do they not keep records? My daughter has a pre-paid phone, and I can go online and view her call history.

Second...Although I believe that the NSA has been doing no-no's and keeping secrets, I'm pretty sure this guy's phone records did not make their desk nor would they still have access.


How long records are kept depends on the company
 
2013-06-13 01:01:10 PM  
i.imgur.comi.imgur.com
 
ows
2013-06-13 01:04:38 PM  

Mcavity: I was telling a friend of min last night someone was going to do this..


is her friend hot? she sounds hot.
 
2013-06-13 01:07:02 PM  

Diogenes: Classified.

Next?


If the NSA argues that it is information that hasn't got any privacy implications because it is just the meta-data, why would the information need to be classified? Obviously it doesn't matter who has the information.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:05 PM  
The NSA is doing a great public service.
I no longer have to back up ANYTHING!
So long, Carbonite!
 
2013-06-13 01:39:45 PM  

DerAppie: Diogenes: Classified.

Next?

If the NSA argues that it is information that hasn't got any privacy implications because it is just the meta-data, why would the information need to be classified? Obviously it doesn't matter who has the information.


Oh, there's a way.

NSA can claim that turning over the data would reveal information about how it is collected from providers or sorted by the NSA, revealing details about how PRISM runs, for example - it only has to pass the most basic smell test (rotten garbage is OK, dead hooker is not).

NSA can also (IIRC) take the judge (and both lawyers?) aside and explain [REDACTED] - or even a one-line note from Holder or the DNI - so now the judge sides with the NSA that this info is secret. For the purposes of the trial, it doesn't exist.

But NSA will absolutely try to have its cake ("secret" metadata collection) and eat it too (not have to provide it to individuals to prove their innocence).

// THIS is part of the Pandora's Box we were warning you about for the last 4 presidential terms
 
2013-06-13 01:40:47 PM  

johnnieconnie: Elandriel: johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.

Opens some avenues for appeal in the event this happens, though.  I'm not sure the NSA can just say "no" if the judiciary orders them to turn over requests relating to a given phone number.

This text is now purple: johnnieconnie: ...and the NSA will just stamp a big NO! on the request and that will be that.

It will still potentially scuttle a lot of criminal cases, if the defense can convince the jury that the prosecution (the government) is withholding exoneratory evidence. At very least, it's a headache for prosecutors.

I agree, headache for prosecutors and defendants, but the NSA won't care one bit.


Well... considering how many prosecutors make runs for higher office, and end up as governors/reps/senators -- it could become an issue. They'll remember how much of a pain in the ass this all was.
 
2013-06-13 01:50:29 PM  
What no one seems to be catching yet is how that would be useless in proving him not guilty. Even if you get the phone records, what does that prove?
I had two cell phones (that you know about) an neither one of them connected to a tower near the bank? Oh good, you left them home and just took a Tracphone with you to the robbery.
I have records showing that my phone was connected to a tower 45 miles away from the bank, and it had called a friend's cellphone which proves I was chatting about boobies and NOT robbing a bank? So your phone called another phone. You're not the only one who can push buttons on it.

Gotta admit the lawyer has some stones for doing this, though.
 
2013-06-13 01:55:10 PM  

MythDragon: What no one seems to be catching yet is how that would be useless in proving him not guilty. Even if you get the phone records, what does that prove?
I had two cell phones (that you know about) an neither one of them connected to a tower near the bank? Oh good, you left them home and just took a Tracphone with you to the robbery.
I have records showing that my phone was connected to a tower 45 miles away from the bank, and it had called a friend's cellphone which proves I was chatting about boobies and NOT robbing a bank? So your phone called another phone. You're not the only one who can push buttons on it.

Gotta admit the lawyer has some stones for doing this, though.



The standard is 'reasonable doubt'.
 
PJ-
2013-06-13 01:55:33 PM  

MythDragon: What no one seems to be catching yet is how that would be useless in proving him not guilty. Even if you get the phone records, what does that prove?
I had two cell phones (that you know about) an neither one of them connected to a tower near the bank? Oh good, you left them home and just took a Tracphone with you to the robbery.
I have records showing that my phone was connected to a tower 45 miles away from the bank, and it had called a friend's cellphone which proves I was chatting about boobies and NOT robbing a bank? So your phone called another phone. You're not the only one who can push buttons on it.

Gotta admit the lawyer has some stones for doing this, though.


Makes you wonder, how did they catch criminals before cell phones were available to everybody.  Oh right, the only thing your phones proves is that it was sitting home, but no actual proof that you were there with it.
 
2013-06-13 01:55:59 PM  

Half Right: take_flight: First, what is MetroPCS, and  WHY do they not keep records? My daughter has a pre-paid phone, and I can go online and view her call history.

Second...Although I believe that the NSA has been doing no-no's and keeping secrets, I'm pretty sure this guy's phone records did not make their desk nor would they still have access.

How long records are kept depends on the company


Your right about the data retention policies. The issue become that MetroPCS deletes their records after a certain number of days. However if the NSA happens to have a copy of those records than the evidence that could be used to exonerate the client is available.

Not sure how much state secrets privilege would help for keeping it out of court, especially if they narrow it down to just that one person. The record will say "blah" and will either help or hurt one side of the case.
 
2013-06-13 01:58:38 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Does the NSA also have white house phone records for Sept. 11, 2012?


I was riding my bike home from work yesterday and the ice I put in my water bottle melted really fast because it was really warm out. I prefer the water to be somewhat cold and it wasn't. That made it less than satisfying when I had the opportunity to take a drink. I did see someone driving an old but restored 60's era Stingray Corvette, that thing was neat.
 
2013-06-13 01:59:55 PM  

dr_blasto: jehovahs witness protection: Does the NSA also have white house phone records for Sept. 11, 2012?

I was riding my bike home from work yesterday and the ice I put in my water bottle melted really fast because it was really warm out. I prefer the water to be somewhat cold and it wasn't. That made it less than satisfying when I had the opportunity to take a drink. I did see someone driving an old but restored 60's era Stingray Corvette, that thing was neat.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
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