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(C|Net)   NSA chief hints at ISP and email wiretapping. If you haven't curled up into a ball and renounced your religion because there is no god yet, now may be a good time   (news.cnet.com) divider line 386
    More: Interesting, ISP, NSA, Julian Sanchez, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, Patriot Act, Fort Meade, warrantless wiretapping, Internet Protocol  
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7357 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 9:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 01:15:07 PM  

dennysgod: Good luck NSA

[i86.photobucket.com image 400x264]

[I'm behind 7 proxies]

I hope your just trying to be ironic funny.  Proxies don't work if they are getting the information from your ISP.  Proxies only hide your IP from the server at the other end of your request. That data still has to go back through your isp to get to your computer.   If you really are using 7 proxies then they probably have already flagged you as someone to watch (I would if I was 'the man').
 
2013-06-13 01:15:37 PM  

mrexcess: bunner: But, but... I was told repeatedly that Twilight Sparkle was best pony! :(


By that remark I'm guessing you're into CP. People into CP go to jail for the rest of their lives. Don't say anything else to get out attention or you will be investigated.
 
2013-06-13 01:16:00 PM  

Skleenar: NostroZ: Insane! This is how ROME fell apart. Allowing in 'contractors' (hired barbarian tribes) into their military.

Well, actually, in large part it was allowing the conscription and recruitment of landless Roman subjects into the military, which set up a condition wherein a professional soldier caste was created that was, in turn (because of the way the Romans dealt with war booty) loyal to their officers instead of the Roman state.  Additionally you had the steady enrichment of the top elite class at the expense of the commoners which led to resentment and more and more landless men to enter into the private armies of those who would become claimants to the consulship or dictatorship.  And a whole lot more stuff.

At least that's how the republic fell apart.


Interesting.  My personal favorite is told by John Green & Crash Course World History - Fall of Rome.

Wouldn't we have similar problems with illegal immigration and also citizenship through military service?

And now, the wouldn't the private armies be Black Water / Xe and all the 'contractors' that rival in number of servicemen in our wars?
 
2013-06-13 01:17:43 PM  

MonoChango: dennysgod: Good luck NSA

[i86.photobucket.com image 400x264] [I'm behind 7 proxies]

I hope your just trying to be ironic funny.  Proxies don't work if they are getting the information from your ISP.  Proxies only hide your IP from the server at the other end of your request. That data still has to go back through your isp to get to your computer.   If you really are using 7 proxies then they probably have already flagged you as someone to watch (I would if I was 'the man').


Tunnel man, tunnel.

SSH tunneling: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/ssh-tunneling-poor-techies-vpn
 
2013-06-13 01:17:47 PM  

I_C_Weener: Biological Ali: I_C_Weener: fickenchucker: So?  Governments have always used interstate commerce as a way to enforce power.  Since the internet crosses many borders, why would anyone be surprised?  I always assumed they were reading anything they wanted.

"I'm farking your girlfriend.  But its cool.  I've always been farking her."

If the guy's "always been farking her", then she'd be his girlfriend. So it would indeed be "cool".

"I've been skimming money off your bank account.  But its cool, I've been doing it since you first got the account under the old bank's name."


More like "Since when did you think these things we allow to happen weren't being watched?"  To really think the government allows privacy is to think a student senate has any real power on a college campus.  The illusion keeps people happy, until they figure it out.

Welcome to adulthood, kids.
 
2013-06-13 01:21:07 PM  

NostroZ: Wouldn't we have similar problems with illegal immigration and also citizenship through military service?


I never though about it, but it's scary.  The immigrant would have no allegiance to the people only the leadership. Most native born guys in the military wouldn't engage American citizens. I think there would be a much higher chance of a foreign born (who as never lived in the US) to attack American citizens.
 
2013-06-13 01:24:37 PM  

mrexcess: Skleenar:

The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called Prism, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.

There. Now you've seen it. Stop spouting bullshiat disinformation.


That article doesn't seem to say what you think it says.  It says the Prism program has access to systems that allows them to obtain content data.  It doesn't say that the Prism program is taking this data as a normal course of operations.

It would be silly to have a system that does what Prism is purported to be that doesn't have the capability to capture content data, for at least two reasons:  First, the capability to capture metadata probably grants the capability to capture content, and second, the whole point of capturing and analyzing metadata is to identify content that you wish to scrutinize further.

Now, if things are being done on the "up-and-up", this further scrutiny is done subject to a warrant.
What you need to show is that this isn't being done, that content is being captured indiscriminately.  Maybe I haven't made this point clear enough and that's why you think I am lying or something.
 
2013-06-13 01:28:20 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Settle down, subby. Everyone knows you're looking at porn. Nobody cares.


I for one, have definitely been looking at the perfect posterior of a very famous porn star from the 80`s.
 
2013-06-13 01:28:33 PM  
uber humper
By that remark I'm guessing you're into CP.

I fail to see what Captain Picard has to do with MLP:FIM, or why I should be imprisoned for liking the best Starfleet officer evar.
 
2013-06-13 01:34:07 PM  
Skleenar
That article doesn't seem to say what you think it says. It says the Prism program has access to systems that allows them to obtain content data. It doesn't say that the Prism program is taking this data as a normal course of operations.

Dude... What? Do you actually work for the NSA? Or are just hoping to? What a bunch of dissembling bullshiat. "Access to systems that allow them to obtain content" but that doesn't somehow show that... They have access to content?!? Give me a break. You disputed initially that Prism had access to content, now you're moving the goalposts and saying that, well gee, of course it does, duh.

Yes, duh, of course it does. That's why what you claimed before was so egregious. Now quit trolling in the hopes of The Man letting you into the inner party.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:41 PM  
Is Keith Alexander a traitor now too?
 
2013-06-13 01:36:22 PM  
Didn't the NSA order a drone attack on the guy who leaked the info?
 
2013-06-13 01:38:04 PM  

Agent 84: We can parse Arabic just fine. Klingon on the other hand-crap, said too much.


WTH is a hand-crap?  Uh, wait, no.  I don't want to know.
 
2013-06-13 01:38:32 PM  
hobberwickey
Actually my dad had a good idea about this. If millions of people just put signature in their emails with a bunch of keywords like "bomb, terror, infidels, etc..." we could basically DDOS their search algorithms and render the whole thing useless. Anyone want to pass this along to Anonymous?


I think that idea is about as old as the idea of email surveillance itself.
Or at least a old as "fortune".
fortune is a nice little "fortune-telling" program that selects and prints a random quotation from a collection of quotes each time you call the program.
Some people have connected fortune to their ".signature" file (= the file that gets appended as your mail signature by many Unix/Linux mailers), so each mail they send contains a random quotation out of their favorite quotes collection.
Since then all you have had to do to pepper an email signature with terror keywords is to use that existing setup and change the collection of quotes.

/but it's also pretty easy to detect and ignore emails where most if not all of the interesting words appear in the last line(s) of the mail
 
2013-06-13 01:39:22 PM  
Have a good day kiddos.

I have to make some money so I can give a little more than half of it to the government who spies on me.
 
2013-06-13 01:41:08 PM  

mrexcess: disinformation.


From your article:


The program facilitates extensive, in-depth surveillance on live communications and stored information. The law allows for the targeting of any customers of participating firms who live outside the US, or those Americans whose communications include people outside the US.
I think this is what the NSA has always been able to do, legally. And certainly since Bush's warrantless wiretapping program was brought to light and then retroactively made legal.
It also opens the possibility of communications made entirely within the US being collected without warrants.
This is my point. They aren't saying this is being done, just that it could be.
 
2013-06-13 01:43:07 PM  

skullkrusher: Is Keith Alexander a traitor now too?


9/11

As a one-star general, Alexander headed the Army Intelligence and Security Command, where in 2001 he was in charge of 10,700 spies and eavesdroppers worldwide. In the words of James Bamford who wrote his biography for Wired, "Alexander and the rest of the American intelligence community suffered a devastating defeat when they were surprised by the attacks on 9/11." Alexander's reaction was to order his intercept operators to begin to illegally monitor the email and phone calls of American citizens who were unrelated to terrorist threats, including the personal calls of journalists

I would say no, but traitor doesn't seem to mean anything anymore, well maybe "I don't like you"
 
2013-06-13 01:45:07 PM  

mrexcess: You disputed initially that Prism had access to content


No, I disputed that the articles I had seen indicated that content was being read or stored, regularly, without warrant.
 
2013-06-13 01:45:12 PM  
Skleenar
This is my point. They aren't saying this is being done, just that it could be.

Functional difference here is thin to nonexistent. "Oh, gee, China must have hacked into our server. Sorry that activist got his information leaked! Wasn't us. We'll do better we promise. But don't ask us how, Mr. Congressman, because we'll have to lie to you about that, the President told us so."

This is what you're defending. Stop. Stop being a tool.
 
2013-06-13 01:47:56 PM  
Skleenar: You, sir, are a credulous farking liar.

But so far, it has not been about tapping US persons comm content, at least to my knowledge.

No, I disputed that the articles I had seen indicated that content was being read or stored, regularly, without warrant.


Derp.
 
2013-06-13 01:48:26 PM  

The Voice of Doom: hobberwickey
Actually my dad had a good idea about this. If millions of people just put signature in their emails with a bunch of keywords like "bomb, terror, infidels, etc..." we could basically DDOS their search algorithms and render the whole thing useless. Anyone want to pass this along to Anonymous?

I think that idea is about as old as the idea of email surveillance itself.
Or at least a old as "fortune".
fortune is a nice little "fortune-telling" program that selects and prints a random quotation from a collection of quotes each time you call the program.
Some people have connected fortune to their ".signature" file (= the file that gets appended as your mail signature by many Unix/Linux mailers), so each mail they send contains a random quotation out of their favorite quotes collection.
Since then all you have had to do to pepper an email signature with terror keywords is to use that existing setup and change the collection of quotes.

/but it's also pretty easy to detect and ignore emails where most if not all of the interesting words appear in the last line(s) of the mail


Right, but if they start ignoring the signatures then it'd be easy to slip past the filters by just putting everything in the filter and filling the email body with "hi, how's your aunt doing?" Not saying it's a fool proof plan, but at least it's a way to mess with them a bit.
 
2013-06-13 01:50:14 PM  

Walker: Just assume the Feds see everything you do....then start masturbating furiously.

/business as usual then


Preaching to the choir.
 
2013-06-13 01:55:20 PM  

mrexcess: Skleenar
This is my point. They aren't saying this is being done, just that it could be.

Functional difference here is thin to nonexistent. "Oh, gee, China must have hacked into our server. Sorry that activist got his information leaked! Wasn't us. We'll do better we promise. But don't ask us how, Mr. Congressman, because we'll have to lie to you about that, the President told us so."

This is what you're defending. Stop. Stop being a tool.


Not only is there a difference, I've even pointed out a reason why they might not feel it is necessary to read everyone's e-mails:  That they can use the metadata to winnow out all of the uninteresting stuff and just get to the stuff that's of interest.  This is probably far more efficient than trying to capture and analyze EVERYTHING.

Now there is plenty of room for abuse even with that qualification, and it greatly depends upon how the data is used and what is being targeted.  I'm not saying that there is no way it can be abused, I even said above that I think it probably is.

Now you can continue building this strawman you desperately want to defeat, or you can listen to what I actually am saying.  It's up to you, though.
 
2013-06-13 01:56:30 PM  

mrexcess: Skleenar: You, sir, are a credulous farking liar.

But so far, it has not been about tapping US persons comm content, at least to my knowledge.

No, I disputed that the articles I had seen indicated that content was being read or stored, regularly, without warrant.

Derp.


You're kidding, right?  Those statements are entirely consistent.
 
2013-06-13 02:02:33 PM  
Hey buddy, Thor never said nothing about protecting us from wiretapping. You can't make me renounce my drunken gods.
 
2013-06-13 02:04:02 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: The government wants to take your "military style" weapons while monitoring all of your communication... it's almost like they're trying to trigger an armed rebellion.

[elwoodin.files.wordpress.com image 469x813]


Good luck with that. They can easily know who you talk to, what you say, where you say it, and can vaporize you with a drone before you even know it's coming.

If the government goes full oppression, there is FARK ALL any of us can do about it. Period.
 
2013-06-13 02:08:11 PM  
If we all just click on this link, then we will all be on the list and the list will be meaningless.
 
2013-06-13 02:12:08 PM  
AWESOME COLLECTION OF FASHIONABLE, UNNOTICEABLE TOP QUALITY PERSONAL FOIL HATS FOR SALE, EIP.


/no EIP.
 
2013-06-13 02:16:24 PM  
Has anyone considered that the government has unleashed douchenozzles to send discussions of this issue on fark and elsewhere into the toilet?

No, not YOU.
 
2013-06-13 02:16:29 PM  
once upon  a time ...

a man went for a walk in the woods ... he was Shocked, SHOCKED ! i tell you ...to find that people could follow his foot prints.


/ old news is old news
 
2013-06-13 02:26:02 PM  

Skleenar: mrexcess: Skleenar: You, sir, are a credulous farking liar.

But so far, it has not been about tapping US persons comm content, at least to my knowledge.

No, I disputed that the articles I had seen indicated that content was being read or stored, regularly, without warrant.

Derp.

You're kidding, right?  Those statements are entirely consistent.


Oh, wait.  Is it your position that since the first statement doens't have the words "without warrant" my position through this discussion is that the NSA wasn't tapping US citizen's communications at all?  Because if that is what you think I was saying, a quick read through my comments would show you that I have been maintaining the position that I fully suggest that they are not only doing so, they are claiming that they are doing so, and that the justification for this is that they are doing it with warrants (FISA or other) and that the pretext for this is in large part developed by the analysis of the metadata that is gathered wholesale, without warrant, in the PRISM program.

Are we cool now?
 
2013-06-13 02:36:55 PM  
Skleenar: At this point I'm comfortable just letting the readers examine our statements and assign credibility as they decide.
 
2013-06-13 02:39:13 PM  
Skleenar: PRISM does not collect only metadata. It collects and archives communications content, without a warrant.
 
2013-06-13 02:39:53 PM  
www.explosm.net
/also the filename
 
2013-06-13 02:46:29 PM  

mrexcess: Skleenar: PRISM does not collect only metadata. It collects and archives communications content, without a warrant.


This statement, whether true or not, has not been supported by anything that you have linked to.
 
2013-06-13 02:48:08 PM  

Skleenar: This statement, whether true or not, has not been supported by anything that you have linked to.


Or, to be absolutely accurate, I have not seen where this is supported in anything you have linked to.

If you wish to point out where this is supported, I'm happy to review it.
 
2013-06-13 02:53:36 PM  

Skleenar: Skleenar: This statement, whether true or not, has not been supported by anything that you have linked to.

Or, to be absolutely accurate, I have not seen where this is supported in anything you have linked to.*

If you wish to point out where this is supported, I'm happy to review it.


* as regards US persons and domestic communications.

Again, another caveat.  The NSA has been doing exactly what you claim to non-US communications for decades, with full support of all three branches of the gov't.  The newest wrinkle was the revelation of domestic information gathering without warrant during the Bush years.  This was retroactively made legal and purportedly is now subject to FISA warrants.
 
2013-06-13 02:59:18 PM  
Skleenar
This statement, whether true or not, has not been supported by anything that you have linked to.

Of course you say that with the full knowledge that the link I provided earlier does just that. I'm done with you. If you want to continue making false claims I'll correct them, but I have better things to do than go back and forth with someone so credulously and visibly dissembling and straw-grasping.
 
2013-06-13 03:06:32 PM  

LordJiro: The_Original_Roxtar: The government wants to take your "military style" weapons while monitoring all of your communication... it's almost like they're trying to trigger an armed rebellion.

[elwoodin.files.wordpress.com image 469x813]

Good luck with that. They can easily know who you talk to, what you say, where you say it, and can vaporize you with a drone before you even know it's coming.

If the government goes full oppression, there is FARK ALL any of us can do about it. Period.


yeah, unless there is some large portion of the military that defects to the side of the rebels, any rebellion is doomed... leaving you with the choice of living like a slave or dying like a patriot.
 
2013-06-13 03:09:38 PM  
This is funny, a bank robber wants NSA surveillance records for his defense.  If it could be used to free an innocent man, should it be released?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/fl-phone-records-fisa-broward-20 13 0612,0,2599646.story
 
2013-06-13 03:14:30 PM  

LordJiro: If the government goes full oppression, there is FARK ALL any of us can do about it. Period.


Most people in the military would not point help the goverment disarm citizens.  Most of those soldiers believe in the right to bear arms. They would need to recruit some of these hardcore anti-gun people I see floating around here.

300,000,000 civilian guns, 300,000,000 civilians vs an army who wouldn't want to fight.
 
2013-06-13 03:26:04 PM  

trappedspirit: If we all just click on this link, then we will all be on the list and the list will be meaningless.


Is that Rick Astley, or Tub Girl?  Either way, me no clicky.
 
2013-06-13 03:30:35 PM  
I hope people actually read what the NSA chief said during his testimony.  He wants to be transparent with the public, he wants to share as much as he safely can about the programs so we as citizens can better understand the situation, the mission, and its effectiveness.  I know a lot of people distrust the NSA, but seriously, of all the agencies - they're the least political.
 
2013-06-13 03:42:24 PM  
uber humper
This is funny, a bank robber wants NSA surveillance records for his defense.

Actually a very interesting case. The defendant claims that phone records would provide him an alibi, but the phone company had already deleted them. The government claimed that they had no way to provide that information. If the government had deliberately withheld exculpatory evidence in someone's felony trial, that's a pretty serious thing.

Of course they could claim that the information was unavailable due to national security demands, and our limp courts would probably buy that. But now these programs are public information, not secret, and providing the info would seem to be necessary.
 
2013-06-13 03:43:57 PM  
They only do it to keep your Freedom loving asses Free.  and don't forget, you can always trust a Government Of, By, and For Big Business/Wealthy.


Cheers!
 
2013-06-13 03:45:20 PM  

basemetal: It's for the children, citizen, don't you care about all the children this will save?

/we know what's best for you
//you can trust us


Sex!!
Do it for the Children.
 
2013-06-13 03:46:12 PM  
DeathByGeekSquad
I know a lot of people distrust the NSA, but seriously, of all the agencies - they're the least political

Maybe the distrust has something to do with the way they lie to the public and even to Congress about what they do, without ever being held accountable? I mean, isn't that sort of deserving of distrust?

And as for their being a-political, how do we actually know that? It's not like the public gets to scrutinize their behavior in a way that would allow us to form an independent judgement. We're just supposed to Trust Them(tm), I guess? Even though they're known liars?
 
2013-06-13 03:47:15 PM  
Just wait until they start wiretapping your commode.  that will be embarrassing.
 
2013-06-13 03:47:33 PM  

mrexcess: Skleenar
This statement, whether true or not, has not been supported by anything that you have linked to.

Of course you say that with the full knowledge that the link I provided earlier does just that. I'm done with you. If you want to continue making false claims I'll correct them, but I have better things to do than go back and forth with someone so credulously and visibly dissembling and straw-grasping.


I'm pretty sure you're misreading the link you posted.  And I've already explained above, with a citation from the article, why that's the case.  If you wish to show me exactly how I've misread the words that I quoted, please go ahead.  But to simply call me a liar again and again really isn't proving your point.

And here's the thing--I really think we're closer on this issue than you seem to think.  However, I think that you've now vested yourself in a position where I'm a bad guy, and are loathe to re-evaluate that.
 
2013-06-13 03:50:36 PM  

Linux_Yes: They only do it to keep your Freedom loving asses Free.  and don't forget, you can always trust a Government Of, By, and For Big Business/Wealthy.


Cheers!



We cannot allow the government to have the power that it does, and we cannot allow the government to give the large corporations the money/power. The mega-corporations are the size that they are because of government help -- whether it by contracts, policy, or cash.

You got part of the answer in your handle. Open source is where it's at. Government can't influence open source, open source keeps the big companies out of the loop.
 
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