If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(C|Net)   NSA chief hints at ISP and email wiretapping. If you haven't curled up into a ball and renounced your religion because there is no god yet, now may be a good time   (news.cnet.com) divider line 386
    More: Interesting, ISP, NSA, Julian Sanchez, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, Patriot Act, Fort Meade, warrantless wiretapping, Internet Protocol  
•       •       •

7354 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 9:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



386 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-06-13 11:57:58 AM

Deneb81: And you do realize the USPS was specifically authorized by the constitution right? To say it already existed in that form is incorrect.


The Colonies had an inter-colonial postal service from 1691. The United States had one authorized in 1775, by the 2nd continental congress. All well before the 1791 Constitution, which formalized an entity that already existed at the federal level.
 
2013-06-13 11:59:44 AM
For those who ask, "why get upset now?"

A forest fire in the middle of nowhere can be ignored as a non-threat for a very long time.. once it gets into the highly populated neighborhoods (once you see the smoke wafting over YOUR house) things feel quite different.

Well, people are seeing that smoke. It's not a surprise, "why now"?
 
2013-06-13 12:00:42 PM
I'm gonna go and shoot some feral kittens after I beat off to WWE and watch Pawn Stars and play a little GTA IV cause THE BIGGEST DOUCHEBAG WINS!1!1   Still waiting for that federal media consultant job offer, mistah Alexander.
 
2013-06-13 12:01:58 PM

Agent 84: Oh, and just for that little shot of snark, I am now flagging you as "Communist Al-Qaeda Sympathizer". Watch your back! ; )


Nah, just put a bullet in my head, massah.  It's give you something to fantasize about while you beat your wife.  :  )
 
2013-06-13 12:03:19 PM

Pants full of macaroni!!: ITT: Republicans believing that Liberals are perfectly ok with being domestically spied on, simply because Fartbama is the president.


ITT: Liberals believing that posting "You're only mad about this because Obama is President! Herp Derp!" isn't defending this bullshiat.
 
2013-06-13 12:04:11 PM
You know what everyone should do?  Create two emails on from one computer at one location and another on a computer at a different location.  Give them names like Habib and Omar and start correspondence between the two.   Put in ambiguous speech that makes references to bombs and the big cheese in DC.  If done right, I bet some Arab looking guy with an accent will start appearing around your house or place of work.  Trust me, if you do it right it will happen.  Trust me.
 
2013-06-13 12:04:33 PM

Skleenar: tenpoundsofcheese: Well, not to take the bait, but how does that enable them to stop or disrupt attacks?

The theory is that using metadata, you can establish patterns that are useful in identifying suspicious persons or activity.

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-fi nd -paul-revere/


Meh, I get the theory, but even that blog falls apart in it's first assumption:  that you know which individuals belong to which groups.  When the emails are coming from gmail, aol, yahoo etc.

That is not meta data, that is additional data that is obtained from somewhere.
 
2013-06-13 12:05:08 PM

mikewadestr: You know what everyone should do?  Create two emails on from one computer at one location and another on a computer at a different location.  Give them names like Habib and Omar and start correspondence between the two.   Put in ambiguous speech that makes references to bombs and the big cheese in DC.  If done right, I bet some Arab looking guy with an accent will start appearing around your house or place of work.  Trust me, if you do it right it will happen.  Trust me.


You would do better making it sound like you are a white supremacist.
 
2013-06-13 12:09:06 PM
If we don't ordinarily have the expectation of privacy in our electronic communications, do we have it if we take steps to encrypt everything?
 
2013-06-13 12:10:06 PM
"to the cops, we're all ni**ers".  - '60s student activist.
 
2013-06-13 12:13:39 PM

bunner: Nah, just put a bullet in my head, massah.


Unfortunately, our UAVs aren't armed yet. For all the state of the art targeting technology they've developed, the Defense Department still can't hit the broad side of a deadline.
 
2013-06-13 12:15:19 PM

Agent 84: bunner: Nah, just put a bullet in my head, massah.

Unfortunately, our UAVs aren't armed yet. For all the state of the art targeting technology they've developed, the Defense Department still can't hit the broad side of a deadline.


You know what's hilarious about the people who are the character you're affecting?  They think somebody wins.  Deluded children with guns and power.
 
2013-06-13 12:22:00 PM
Well, at least someone is reading my emails, cuz I'm sure as hell not.
 
2013-06-13 12:25:51 PM
This is a basic 4th amendment violation of our right to privacy and freedom from unnecessary searches.  SPEAK UP!

If you know evil is being committed and the tools for evil are only being expanded upon, as a good person, you should say something!

Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.  The CIA knew Bin Laden's 'attack was imminent' and delivered that memo to Bush way before 9/11.  Our intelligence network is in place and works... WE DON'T NEED TO LOSE OUR BASIC FREEDOMS in exchange for PHONY SECURITY.

Contact your congressman / representative.
Call them on the phone.

Show them you're not afraid, but are a CONCERNED citizen.
Concerned for your 4th Amendment rights.
Concerned that this phony big brother system is not keeping us any safer.


http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml - Click on links on the bottom left, it takes a minute.  Call the Washington office of both your State Representative and two Congressmen.
They don't ask your name, just your zip code and message to deliver the rep/congressman.

STOP COMPLAINING
AND DO SOMETHING!
 
2013-06-13 12:29:49 PM

mrexcess: Why do you keep saying this? I showed you yesterday that content is exactly what PRISM targets, according to the person who leaked the information on it. Are you just trolling? Deliberately spreading disinformation


But not according to the leaked documents that have been made public, nor from what has officially been said (with grain of salt, of course) about the program.

What Snowden said was that he had the authority to wiretap anyone in the world.  As questionable as that statement is, and even leaving aside the discussion of what "authority" means in this context, his words certainly imply that wiretapping (which I am assuming here means reading content of communications) is not done regularly, but instead on demand as "needed".
 
2013-06-13 12:29:57 PM
Dear NSA

I know it's important that "our" team WINS!

At any cost, even if it means turning the US into everything the US stands against, we have to WIN!

The winner's circle.  Let me show it to you.  Ha ha.  Suckers.

www.heritagepursuit.com
 
2013-06-13 12:31:45 PM

NostroZ: Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.


I don't know if terrorism can be stopped.  But we need to stop using domestic spying in place of good diplomacy.

The US doesn't need domestic spying we need a good PR department along with capable leadership. Domestic spying is attempting to treat the symptoms, not the problem. The problem is festering. The US citizens now have terrorism to worry about and also the government.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:42 PM

bunner: Dear NSA

I know it's important that "our" team WINS!

At any cost, even if it means turning the US into everything the US stands against, we have to WIN!

The winner's circle.  Let me show it to you.  Ha ha.  Suckers.

[www.heritagepursuit.com image 695x444]


That looks relaxing!
 
2013-06-13 12:33:05 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Skleenar: tenpoundsofcheese: Well, not to take the bait, but how does that enable them to stop or disrupt attacks?

The theory is that using metadata, you can establish patterns that are useful in identifying suspicious persons or activity.

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-fi nd -paul-revere/

Meh, I get the theory, but even that blog falls apart in it's first assumption:  that you know which individuals belong to which groups.  When the emails are coming from gmail, aol, yahoo etc.

That is not meta data, that is additional data that is obtained from somewhere.


Of course the metadata is analyzed in context of other "real world" data.  It would be silly not to use all the data we have at our disposal.
 
2013-06-13 12:34:11 PM
is pgp still outlawed in the US?
 
2013-06-13 12:34:49 PM

uber humper: That looks relaxing!


And so far, inevitable.  You'd think we would have incorporated this little factoid into our societal management master plan by now.
 
2013-06-13 12:34:58 PM

uber humper: NostroZ: Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.

I don't know if terrorism can be stopped.  But we need to stop using domestic spying in place of good diplomacy.

The US doesn't need domestic spying we need a good PR department along with capable leadership. Domestic spying is attempting to treat the symptoms, not the problem. The problem is festering. The US citizens now have terrorism to worry about and also the government.


Right!  Terror is an emotion.  How can you have a war against a basic emotion?
We already have the CIA and FBI, which do a stellar job in protecting the citizens from in and outside the country.

This whole NSA, TSA, bullcrap is not about security, it's about big business and an overreach.
As a citizen in a democracy THIS IS YOUR TIME TO SPEAK UP.

What's the point of having the FREEDOM OF SPEECH IF YOU NEVER US IT?
 
2013-06-13 12:35:17 PM

This text is now purple: Skleenar: tenpoundsofcheese: Well, not to take the bait, but how does that enable them to stop or disrupt attacks?

The theory is that using metadata, you can establish patterns that are useful in identifying suspicious persons or activity.

http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-fi nd -paul-revere/

And I believe that it is useful for this sort of thing.

The AOL search history closure from a few years back demonstrated that just abstracted meta-data can identify specific people.


But I don't think we are talking about using data from search history.  This was metadata about emails.

When most are using things like gmail, AOL, yahoo mail, I don't understand how you ever get something useful unless you tie it in with something else, such as the content of the email or their search history, etc.
 
2013-06-13 12:36:30 PM

lucksi: is pgp still outlawed in the US?


I don't think it is. Once upon a time, encryption was considered a munition and regulated, but no longer.  But, if you are told to decrypt, you probably should http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/decryption-deadline-looms/  . So that makes it kinda moot but does prevent real time.
 
2013-06-13 12:37:31 PM

NostroZ: What's the point of having the FREEDOM OF SPEECH IF YOU NEVER US IT?


I've scoured  the neighborhood for a free speech zone, but so far, I've just come up with a couple of speed traps by the doughnut shop.
 
2013-06-13 12:37:57 PM

NostroZ: What's the point of having the FREEDOM OF SPEECH IF YOU NEVER US IT?


I know.  Look how you can't find anyone, anywhere, speaking up about the Government's overreach in domestic spying.
 
2013-06-13 12:39:56 PM
Skleenar: OK. As long as we all know you're playing a disinformation game, I guess it's OK. But that's exactly what you're doing.

When you say "so far as I know", what you really mean is, "so far as I want to believe, despite reports to the contrary that I reject out of hand".
 
2013-06-13 12:40:19 PM
Mytch
If the program were being run by computer engineers who I would expect to have demonstrable knowledge of what is and is not metadata,
[..]
the line between meta-data and data suddenly disappears and they're reading your e-mail.


Especially because that line is literally just an empty line.

Or rather: two line-break characters.
An email is just a text where every line until the first empty line is treated as a header (example lines: "Subject: grow your privacy another 2 inches" or "From: lon­gdong[nospam-﹫-backwards]adiaqla*org" ) and the text after that empty line is interpreted as the content .

So if you tap a line and want to collect email metadata, you pretty much have to store the email and throw away the content later or read and interpret the data in real time and then "tune out" when you see a sequence of two line breaks within an IP packet (..which might have contained a short email in its entirety already).

/btw,, since the "Subject" is a header line, you could consider it part of the metadata from a technical point of view
 
2013-06-13 12:41:06 PM

NostroZ: This is a basic 4th amendment violation of our right to privacy and freedom from unnecessary searches.  SPEAK UP!

If you know evil is being committed and the tools for evil are only being expanded upon, as a good person, you should say something!

Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.  The CIA knew Bin Laden's 'attack was imminent' and delivered that memo to Bush way before 9/11.  Our intelligence network is in place and works... WE DON'T NEED TO LOSE OUR BASIC FREEDOMS in exchange for PHONY SECURITY.

Contact your congressman / representative.
Call them on the phone.

Show them you're not afraid, but are a CONCERNED citizen.
Concerned for your 4th Amendment rights.
Concerned that this phony big brother system is not keeping us any safer.

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml - Click on links on the bottom left, it takes a minute.  Call the Washington office of both your State Representative and two Congressmen.
They don't ask your name, just your zip code and message to deliver the rep/congressman.

STOP COMPLAINING
AND DO SOMETHING!


Losing, not loosing. Pet peeve.
 
2013-06-13 12:43:43 PM

NostroZ: uber humper: NostroZ: Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.

I don't know if terrorism can be stopped.  But we need to stop using domestic spying in place of good diplomacy.

The US doesn't need domestic spying we need a good PR department along with capable leadership. Domestic spying is attempting to treat the symptoms, not the problem. The problem is festering. The US citizens now have terrorism to worry about and also the government.

Right!  Terror is an emotion.  How can you have a war against a basic emotion?
We already have the CIA and FBI, which do a stellar job in protecting the citizens from in and outside the country.

This whole NSA, TSA, bullcrap is not about security, it's about big business and an overreach.
As a citizen in a democracy THIS IS YOUR TIME TO SPEAK UP.

What's the point of having the FREEDOM OF SPEECH IF YOU NEVER US IT?


I mentioned in another thread that anyone involved in PRISM (or any domestic survalance), from the highest to the lowest tech,  should have their name published in the NY Times along with their zip code.  Similar to what the East Germans did with Stasi informants (and that was like almost 2.5% of the population). They need to be made an example. This is how to prevent it from happening again, this is how to regain trust in the government.
 
2013-06-13 12:46:09 PM

uber humper: I mentioned in another thread that anyone involved in PRISM (or any domestic survalance), from the highest to the lowest tech,  should have their name published in the NY Times along with their zip code.


But.. a secret interpretation of the Patriot act disallows this for SECURITY!  Grease up and bend over that kitchen table, folks, cause the malarkey is gonna flow like sewage.
 
2013-06-13 12:46:34 PM

mrexcess: Skleenar: OK. As long as we all know you're playing a disinformation game, I guess it's OK. But that's exactly what you're doing.

When you say "so far as I know", what you really mean is, "so far as I want to believe, despite reports to the contrary that I reject out of hand".


If you have such reports, please indicate them to me.  Last I remember, you gave me a link that describe the metadata analysis of PRISM, and Snowden's assertion that he had authority to wiretap people.  I don't believe I've rejected anything "out of hand" other than to say that I have some reason to question the meaning and veracity of Snowden's statements.

Greenwald says there are hundreds of documents on this system and more will be coming to light soon.  So maybe your assertion will be proved out.  I just haven't seen it.
 
2013-06-13 12:51:32 PM

bunner: uber humper: I mentioned in another thread that anyone involved in PRISM (or any domestic survalance), from the highest to the lowest tech,  should have their name published in the NY Times along with their zip code.

But.. a secret interpretation of the Patriot act disallows this for SECURITY!  Grease up and bend over that kitchen table, folks, cause the malarkey is gonna flow like sewage.


Either way, legal or illegal, it's still wrong and dangerous.

Short sightedness. They create an apparatus to prevent domestic dissension which creates more domestic dissension  which will intern will need a more sophisticated apparatus to contain.
 
2013-06-13 12:51:44 PM

uber humper: NostroZ: uber humper: NostroZ: Terrorism can be stopped without us loosing our basic freedoms as afforded under the constitution.

I don't know if terrorism can be stopped.  But we need to stop using domestic spying in place of good diplomacy.

The US doesn't need domestic spying we need a good PR department along with capable leadership. Domestic spying is attempting to treat the symptoms, not the problem. The problem is festering. The US citizens now have terrorism to worry about and also the government.

Right!  Terror is an emotion.  How can you have a war against a basic emotion?
We already have the CIA and FBI, which do a stellar job in protecting the citizens from in and outside the country.

This whole NSA, TSA, bullcrap is not about security, it's about big business and an overreach.
As a citizen in a democracy THIS IS YOUR TIME TO SPEAK UP.

What's the point of having the FREEDOM OF SPEECH IF YOU NEVER US IT?

I mentioned in another thread that anyone involved in PRISM (or any domestic survalance), from the highest to the lowest tech,  should have their name published in the NY Times along with their zip code.  Similar to what the East Germans did with Stasi informants (and that was like almost 2.5% of the population). They need to be made an example. This is how to prevent it from happening again, this is how to regain trust in the government.


I wish!  Booze Allen Hammilton is a contractor, they are not even the government.  It seems like EVERYONE has their spoon in our gumbo of freedom.  Tell them to STAY OUT!

Call your Representative / 2 Sentators (  http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml ) and tell them that we are AMERICA.  This is not EAST GERMANY!  We should not be spied on.

We already have the FBI/CIA to protect us and they do a DAMN GOOD JOB.  The NSAs PRISM must be stopped.  (Remember Batman... he stopped it)  Now it's your turn to PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY.

Use your VOICE and CALL YOUR GOVERNMENT.
They have nice staffers that will only ask your zip code and message to deliver.
 
2013-06-13 12:51:59 PM

The Voice of Doom: Mytch
If the program were being run by computer engineers who I would expect to have demonstrable knowledge of what is and is not metadata,
[..]
the line between meta-data and data suddenly disappears and they're reading your e-mail.

Especially because that line is literally just an empty line.

Or rather: two line-break characters.
An email is just a text where every line until the first empty line is treated as a header (example lines: "Subject: grow your privacy another 2 inches" or "From: longdong[[nospam-﹫-backwards] image 7x13]adiaqla[* image 7x13]org" ) and the text after that empty line is interpreted as the content .

So if you tap a line and want to collect email metadata, you pretty much have to store the email and throw away the content later or read and interpret the data in real time and then "tune out" when you see a sequence of two line breaks within an IP packet (..which might have contained a short email in its entirety already).

/btw,, since the "Subject" is a header line, you could consider it part of the metadata from a technical point of view


It is exactly this sort of technical difficulty that could very well put the PRISM program, as it has been described in the press, in questionable legal and 4th amendment grounds (although the latter is probably true even if they are just gathering metadata).

  If they are, in fact, capturing the actual content then throwing part of it away, "unread" you're getting int both a trust issue as well as a definitional issue akin to whether or not there is a sound if no one hears a tree fall in the woods.

I suspect that there are technical instances where, in fact, this line has been crossed, and that the nice guys at NSA will assure us that in their hearts they aren't crossing a bright line between what is legal and what isn't.  But, again, this is just speculation on my part.
 
2013-06-13 12:53:33 PM

NostroZ: Use your VOICE and CALL YOUR GOVERNMENT.
They have nice staffers that will only ask your zip code and message to deliver.


Metadata
 
2013-06-13 12:53:44 PM

uber humper: Short sightedness. They create an apparatus to prevent domestic dissension which creates more domestic dissension  which will intern will need a more sophisticated apparatus to contain.


Sorry, it's difficult to hear you over the noise of the gorillas killing the cheetas that I got to get rid of the anteaters I got to kill the ants
 
2013-06-13 12:59:17 PM
The government wants to take your "military style" weapons while monitoring all of your communication... it's almost like they're trying to trigger an armed rebellion.

elwoodin.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-06-13 01:00:10 PM

Cletus C.: STOP COMPLAINING
AND DO SOMETHING!

Losing, not loosing. Pet peeve.


Thank you for the correction; perfection is but a star on the horizon to which we forever strive to.
How is this?  We will not be LOSING our basic freedoms if more of us spoke up in times when said rights are clearly being violated.

The FOURTH AMENDMENT of our basic contract between the people and the government called the Constitution / Bill of Rights states:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Participate in something bigger than Fark, our Democracy!
Call your Senator / Representative and use your RIGHTS.
 
2013-06-13 01:00:14 PM

bunner: uber humper: Short sightedness. They create an apparatus to prevent domestic dissension which creates more domestic dissension  which will intern will need a more sophisticated apparatus to contain.

Sorry, it's difficult to hear you over the noise of the gorillas killing the cheetas that I got to get rid of the anteaters I got to kill the ants


that b*tched and itched and invaded your home. you got the ants to kill the fleas. So I guess your real solution would have been to stop making out with hobos?
 
2013-06-13 01:00:14 PM

NostroZ: I wish! Booze Allen Hammilton is a contractor, they are not even the government.


1.5 million people have top secret clearance. That's a lot of crazy boyfriends, people in deep debt looking for easy money, people with unstated foreign allegiances, and out right crazies,
 
2013-06-13 01:01:59 PM

tylerdurden217: uber humper: It's about misuse.  I remember the owner of a club I used to hang out at was jailed for bribing city and county officials in LV and San Diego.  The FBI used the Patriot Act to bust him.  http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/editorials/article/Time-to-fix-the-Patr i ot-Act-2717306.php  It's a slippery slope.  It starts like this case, becomes more and more common, then we will be in an absolute police state.

You've been wearing rose colored glasses if you think this is as far as it will go. It has to stop, and stop here.

Exactly. It's inevitable that the federal government decides that, in order to get more value out of all of the data that is collected, they start using it for other purposes. It IS NOT comforting to hear that out of all of the data that has been collected there have been handfuls (dozens?) of cases in which that has helped disrupt plots... as if they fight terrorism with a Philip K Dick style "precrime" system. So in other words, the ROI on the sacrifice of our civil liberties has been really farking low. That won't mean that they kill the program, but instead, add value to it by increasing its scope. Fark that.

Instead of dismantling the systems that the Bush administration put into place in the name of the War on Terror... Obama has further cemented it, building a strong foundation for future administrations to use it as they please. Well, at least due process is gone. Saves time when looking for a lawyer so you can just get better at Sudoku while you waste away your best years behind bars. But crime rates are down! It's working!

Jeeezus I'm paranoid.


Please, you think Bush started the surveillance state? This shiat has been going on since the NSA was founded, and probably before. Sure, it wasn't cell phones and internet, but only because those didn't exist yet.

This shiat was built, cemented and reinforced long before Obama. And there is nothing you, or anyone, can do about it, because anyone who HAS that kind of power is not going to give it up. Period.
 
2013-06-13 01:01:59 PM

Greil: that b*tched and itched and invaded your home. you got the ants to kill the fleas. So I guess your real solution would have been to stop making out with hobos?



:  /

:  \

:  |


So, do you grow your own, or is that a medical condition or a really crappy movie quote?
 
2013-06-13 01:02:27 PM

uber humper: NostroZ: I wish! Booze Allen Hammilton is a contractor, they are not even the government.

1.5 million people have top secret clearance. That's a lot of crazy boyfriends, people in deep debt looking for easy money, people with unstated foreign allegiances, and out right crazies,


Insane!  This is how ROME fell apart.  Allowing in 'contractors' (hired barbarian tribes) into their military.

Call your government. (http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml )
For now we STILL live in a Democracy, as a good person and a citizen it is your duty to do something about this.
 
2013-06-13 01:03:05 PM

uber humper: Booze Allen Hammilton is a contractor, they are not even the government.


Actually, this is the part of the whole thing that I am most uncomfortable with.  It seems we are subcontracting some of the craziest governmental functions, all for the greater good of "privatization".
 
2013-06-13 01:03:06 PM
 
2013-06-13 01:05:27 PM

mrexcess: There. Now you've seen it. Stop spouting bullshiat disinformation.


Think of it as an undisclosed case of herpes from that skanky chick at that furry con.
 
2013-06-13 01:06:02 PM

Skleenar: uber humper: Booze Allen Hammilton is a contractor, they are not even the government.

Actually, this is the part of the whole thing that I am most uncomfortable with.  It seems we are subcontracting some of the craziest governmental functions, all for the greater good of "privatization".


Many good ideas aren't feasible. It's nice to think that PRISM can keep us safe, but the side-effects make it a bad idea.
 
2013-06-13 01:08:22 PM

NostroZ: Insane! This is how ROME fell apart. Allowing in 'contractors' (hired barbarian tribes) into their military.


Well, actually, in large part it was allowing the conscription and recruitment of landless Roman subjects into the military, which set up a condition wherein a professional soldier caste was created that was, in turn (because of the way the Romans dealt with war booty) loyal to their officers instead of the Roman state.  Additionally you had the steady enrichment of the top elite class at the expense of the commoners which led to resentment and more and more landless men to enter into the private armies of those who would become claimants to the consulship or dictatorship.  And a whole lot more stuff.

At least that's how the republic fell apart.
 
2013-06-13 01:09:48 PM
bunner: But, but... I was told repeatedly that Twilight Sparkle was best pony! :(
 
Displayed 50 of 386 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report