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(Politico)   "Treason is a tough sell in Snowden case" How about sedition? Minor sedition? Jaywalking?   (politico.com) divider line 206
    More: Interesting, Jonathan Turley, Booz Allen Hamilton, electronic surveillance, treason, Benedict Arnold, Fort Meade, court martial  
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5453 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 9:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 08:28:36 AM  
Not enough people are tried for being aliens in the Alien and Sedition Acts.
 
2013-06-13 08:29:05 AM  
Treason is completely off the table.  This is how the Constitution defines treason:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that:  He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

What he *CAN* be tried and convicted for is for intentionally disclosing classified information to unauthorized personnel, and the government has a pretty open and shut case there:  He's admitted to it openly.
 
2013-06-13 08:37:26 AM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Not enough people are tried for being aliens xenomorphs in the Alien Xenomorph and Sedition Acts.


FTFY.  Can't call 'em "Aliens" anymore.  It's a PC thing.
 
2013-06-13 08:40:18 AM  
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-13 08:42:36 AM  

dittybopper: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Not enough people are tried for being aliens xenomorphs in the Alien Xenomorph and Sedition Acts.

FTFY.  Can't call 'em "Aliens" anymore.  It's a PC thing.


I apologize. "Promethean Americans."
 
2013-06-13 08:53:32 AM  

dittybopper: What he *CAN* be tried and convicted for is for intentionally disclosing classified information to unauthorized personnel, and the government has a pretty open and shut case there: He's admitted to it openly.


And we're done.
 
2013-06-13 08:54:38 AM  

dittybopper: Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that: He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.


So telling the Chinese how we spy on them (read the latest news) isn't treason? Because that totally is.
 
2013-06-13 08:59:22 AM  
He's got the worst farking attorneys.
 
2013-06-13 09:31:46 AM  
Sedition?!?

If we bring back charging people with sedition, we're going to wind up jailing or hanging half of Congress and all of the Teabaggers.

Hmm...

We should bring it back.
 
2013-06-13 09:32:27 AM  

dittybopper: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Not enough people are tried for being aliens xenomorphs in the Alien Xenomorph and Sedition Acts.

FTFY.  Can't call 'em "Aliens" anymore.  It's a PC thing.


They mostly complain about that word.

/Mostly
 
2013-06-13 09:35:11 AM  

DamnYankees: He's got the worst farking attorneys.


i.picasion.com
 
2013-06-13 09:35:47 AM  
He should talk to Assange and Ellsburg and they should start a magazine.  Or podcast.  Or band.
 
2013-06-13 09:36:22 AM  
 He was defending the Constitution and American people. He needs to come back explain it to a jury of his peers.
 
2013-06-13 09:38:17 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: dittybopper: Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that: He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

So telling the Chinese how we spy on them (read the latest news) isn't treason? Because that totally is.


With the way that the Chinese have been hacking at all of our defense contractors and govt systems lately? Yeah, they already knew about it probably.
 
2013-06-13 09:38:37 AM  

DamnYankees: He's got the worst farking attorneys.


Shoulda called Saul.
 
2013-06-13 09:39:40 AM  
You can't charge him with treason because you can't catch him. Lulz.
 
2013-06-13 09:40:00 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: dittybopper: Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that: He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

So telling the Chinese how we spy on them (read the latest news) isn't treason? Because that totally is.


China is our declared enemy now? I must've slept through that.
 
2013-06-13 09:41:34 AM  
I would agree with a letter or reprimand, with harsh words, and a very stern warning not to do it again.
 
2013-06-13 09:42:11 AM  
Light treason!
 
2013-06-13 09:43:26 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: DamnYankees: He's got the worst farking attorneys.

Shoulda called Saul.


Nah, I think he would have been better off with Bob Loblaw. A well-timed law bomb lobbed from his law blog would get him off.
 
2013-06-13 09:44:06 AM  

dittybopper: Treason is completely off the table.  This is how the Constitution defines treason:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that:  He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

What he *CAN* be tried and convicted for is for intentionally disclosing classified information to unauthorized personnel, and the government has a pretty open and shut case there:  He's admitted to it openly.


you don't know everything about what he has in those laptops and who in Hong Kong he's talking to.
 
2013-06-13 09:44:20 AM  
"Disturbing the peace?  I got thrown out of a f*cking window!  What's the charge for being pushed out of a moving car?  Jaywalking?"

i3.ytimg.com
 
2013-06-13 09:44:41 AM  
I would have to say "How dare he point out information that was in the newspapers in 2006" and then go after him for the several days of no-call no-show at work. That shiat's rude.
 
2013-06-13 09:44:51 AM  
24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-13 09:44:55 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: dittybopper: Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that: He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

So telling the Chinese how we spy on them (read the latest news) isn't treason? Because that totally is.


Are we at war with the PRC?  Are we shooting at them, and are they shooting at us?

No?

Then treason doesn't apply.  Nor does it need to, as there are enough statutes to charge him with that a charge of treason isn't necessary.
 
2013-06-13 09:45:17 AM  
Let's just make all whistleblowers illegal nonpersons. It's not like we're really fooling anyone anymore anyway.
 
2013-06-13 09:46:21 AM  
How about Blowing The Whistle Like John Phillips Sousa?
 
2013-06-13 09:46:32 AM  
How about "creating a nuisance?"

/father-rapin'?
 
2013-06-13 09:48:03 AM  

Hobodeluxe: you don't know everything about what he has in those laptops and who in Hong Kong he's talking to.


Unless he has direct contact with Al Qaeda, treason doesn't apply

(well, maybe you could argue for North Korea, since we are still technically at war with them).

But even if he *WAS* (which seems unlikely), there is still this hurdle:

No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Find two witnesses to the same "overt Act", or get him to admit it in court, or it won't fly.
 
2013-06-13 09:48:50 AM  

Serious Black: Nah, I think he would have been better off with Bob Loblaw. A well-timed law bomb lobbed from his law blog would get him off.


*He's in Hong Kong, so cash only
 
2013-06-13 09:49:48 AM  

dittybopper: (well, maybe you could argue for North Korea, since we are still technically at war with them).


Nope, that was a police action. (In South Korea, YMMV.)
 
2013-06-13 09:51:15 AM  
So...what's the difference between what Bradley Manning did and what Snowden did?
 
2013-06-13 09:53:27 AM  

Hobodeluxe: you don't know everything about what he has in those laptops and who in Hong Kong he's talking to.


And let me guess, YOU, of all people, farking do?  Guess what, you don't know shiat.

What ditty said is right on; there's an open and shut case for revealing secrets and removal of classified documents.  No question on it.

If you have evidence of treason, I suggest calling the Feds or a reporter, because you're OBVIOUSLY some sort of psychic.  Or a lame assed fool sitting at home in his mom's basement.
 
2013-06-13 09:53:49 AM  

PreMortem: PC LOAD LETTER: dittybopper: Nothing that Snowden did could conceivably come close to that: He merely leaked information a news agency about domestic surveillance programs, which isn't levying war, nor is it giving aid and comfort to the enemies of the United States.

So telling the Chinese how we spy on them (read the latest news) isn't treason? Because that totally is.

China is our declared enemy now? I must've slept through that.


Passing information to a foreign power can get you convicted for treason, it is not up to the traitor to determine whether the power is 'friendly' or not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-claims-nsa-documents-show-u-hac ks -215625790--abc-news-topstories.html
Snowden seems to be working on a more solid treason case for the US.
 
2013-06-13 09:53:58 AM  

Vodka Zombie: Sedition?!?

If we bring back charging people with sedition, we're going to wind up jailing or hanging half of Congress and all of the Teabaggers.

Hmm...

We should bring it back.


Don't forget anyone who carried a "Bush = Hitler" sign, or had such a bumper sticker on their vehicle.  Most of the Occupy Wall Street crowd.

Pretty much all you'd be left with is bland soccer moms who don't give a crap about politics, and politically neutered males.

/Good luck with that.
 
2013-06-13 09:55:55 AM  
This is BS.

Free Manning.
 
2013-06-13 09:57:48 AM  

Ninja Otter: dittybopper: (well, maybe you could argue for North Korea, since we are still technically at war with them).

Nope, that was a police action. (In South Korea, YMMV.)


I don't think that matters.

No one would argue in court that during the Korean War, which was a war by all definition, that North Korea was an 'enemy' that was shooting real bullets at US troops.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me you needn't have a formal declaration of war to charge someone with treason, but you *DO* need an actual military conflict.
 
2013-06-13 09:58:57 AM  

dittybopper: that North Korea was wasn't an 'enemy' that was shooting real bullets at US troops.


FTFM.
 
2013-06-13 09:59:27 AM  

A Leaf in Fall: So...what's the difference between what Bradley Manning did and what Snowden did?


Very different.
 
2013-06-13 09:59:29 AM  
Manning/Snowden 2016
 
2013-06-13 10:00:05 AM  

Heraclitus: This is BS.

Free Manning.


is that with or without having to purchase a Snowden of equal or greater value?
 
2013-06-13 10:01:05 AM  
It might help if the Republicans would pick either castigating Obama for the program or Snowden for revealing the program. Either the program is bad, or revealing the program is bad. You can't have it both ways, Republicans.
 
2013-06-13 10:03:29 AM  

A Leaf in Fall: So...what's the difference between what Bradley Manning did and what Snowden did?


Manning did an indiscriminate dump of hundreds of thousands of documents to 'get back' at the military because of some perceived mistreatment.

Snowden released a relatively limited amount of classified information based upon his judgment that the programs in question were unconstitutional infringements upon the privacy of all US citizens.

There is a material difference between the two.
 
2013-06-13 10:07:08 AM  

badhatharry: He was defending the Constitution and American people. He needs to come back explain it to a jury of his peers.


Good point.  I would never convict him of anything if I was on a jury.
 
2013-06-13 10:09:10 AM  
I think they captured him.  There's already a video of this informer behind bars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtILxBszyf8
 
2013-06-13 10:10:48 AM  

IlGreven: It might help if the Republicans would pick either castigating Obama for the program or Snowden for revealing the program. Either the program is bad, or revealing the program is bad. You can't have it both ways, Republicans.


I don't think the Republicans quite know how to approach this whole thing.  If they push too hard, you can just come back at them with, "Wait a second, weren't you guys the one who wanted to put this whole system in place anyway?  That whole PATRIOT act thing?"  And they also risk alienating a lot of their own voters who don't like RAND PAUL types and who would say to them "Why are you keeping our country from fighting terrorism?"  And there are probably, still, a lot more of those people than PAUL fans.

It's why while this could really be a scandal, they can't really sink their teeth into it the way they did with something like Benghazi or even Umbrella-gate.
 
2013-06-13 10:12:10 AM  
Tax evasion?
 
2013-06-13 10:14:05 AM  
Snowden aided the citizens of the United States by informing us of the programs gathering our information. For the government to declare him a traitor, they would have to admit that they consider the citizens to be an enemy.
 
2013-06-13 10:15:40 AM  
"Treason is a tough sell in Snowden case" How about sedition? Minor sedition? Jaywalking?

Would you believe, "creating a public nuisance"?
 
2013-06-13 10:15:48 AM  
Well, he made treason an easier sell now that he's telling China about US spying/hacking against foreign interests. That's pretty direct.
 
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