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(io9)   First trailer for 300: Rise of an Empire   (io9.com) divider line 118
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4883 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 13 Jun 2013 at 1:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 03:36:04 PM

FLMountainMan: Making it the first movie ever to use artifical means to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.  Oh, and Greeks were paler then.


I know, Hollywood had been racist for a long time. Brown to them is bad and white is good. I also know Greeks are lighter than Persians, but they never looked like pale northern Europeans.
 
2013-06-13 03:53:08 PM
i31.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-13 04:16:43 PM

TheJoe03: I know, Hollywood had been racist for a long time. Brown to them is bad and white is good. I also know Greeks are lighter than Persians, but they never looked like pale northern Europeans.


Depends which Greeks you're talking about. The Achaeans (Myceneae) and Persians were essentially the same race -- both came from the same Indo-European stock. The Achaeans first came to Greece from the east, via Crete (cf. Minoans), about a thousand years before everybody else did.

The Ionians (Athens) and Aeolians (Thebes) came after, probably over the Hellspont (Byzantium), a bit removed but still largely Indo-European and indistinguishable from Persian/Median. The Dorians (Sparta, Corinth) came last. They came from the direct north, probably Danubian culture, settled in Epirus for awhile, then moved south again, conquered the Peloponnese and wiped out/assimilated/enslaved the Achaeans. They were very likely fairer skinned and haired than the Indo-European stock everybody else came from, but they were hardly nordic looking. I'm guessing they looked like modern Romanians/slavic.

The movie 300 is not really that far off in depicting this. Except for a couple goofy exceptions (Michael Fassbender, David Wenham).

The Persians, on the other hand, were so ridiculously miscast as a race that it has to be parody
 
2013-06-13 04:25:13 PM

TheJoe03: FLMountainMan: Making it the first movie ever to use artifical means to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.  Oh, and Greeks were paler then.

I know, Hollywood had been racist for a long time. Brown to them is bad and white is good. I also know Greeks are lighter than Persians, but they never looked like pale northern Europeans.


They didn't speak english either!!

How shiatty of them to not make it accurate!

It's necessary to take some liberties like that when appealing to an english speaking populace as a whole.

It's not even that Hollywood is racist, it that it believes a large chunk of the viewership would rather watch/believe/understand/empathize with the the european archetype.  They are not wrong.

You're like a person complaining there aren't enough whites on BET programming.

No, they're appealing to specific parts of real world culture and how they identify with characters on the screen.  It's not even racism of the populace at large, but typical human psychology.

Also, it's about uniformity of the cast within that given group, and what you have to work with as far as actors.  If you use an established actor for star power(pure marketing here), such as Butler, the rest of his people need to more or less resemble him or it breaks the illusion.  Accents, skin tone, etc.

It's not like you could put Jaime Foxx, Snoop Dog, Richard Prior, Tyler Perry, etc in these roles, same as you couldn't use Eminem, Jaime Kennedy, Mark Whalberg, Ben Afflec, Kevin Costner etc.

Using people with the european english(UK/Scot/Irish - to include australian) is simply standard, because most other accents are just too jarring to the viewer, and to most viewers, that accent inspires feelings of how people sounded back then even if they didn't).  Look how much flack Kevin Costner caught with his relatively light accent in Robin Hood.

But you can't use actual grecian or persian actors, there aren't enough that speak comprehensible(to the public at large) english to flesh out racial bodies of the times back then(that also fit the roles well). And even if you could, you lose the draw of star power that is a real thing with a purpose.  A lot of people don't like to watch "no-name" actors, at the very least, it's a risky thing.  Using stars that are known and have some following allows the viewer to not feel like it's a gamble.

It's not about racism at all.  It's about delivering the content that appeals to as many people as possible.

Give your race card a break man. Society has got enough problems without you attempting to create more.
 
2013-06-13 06:15:18 PM

scottydoesntknow: BilltheThrill: Son of Thunder:

Did you seriously just equate a movie that (at some level) is supposed to be about historical stuff that actually happened with a comic book adaptation?

The movie is "supposed to be about historical stuff"?  Are you farking high?

In the sense that the Battle of Thermopylae happened, yes. What Son of Thunder is saying is a lot of people's only exposure to that battle is the movie "300", so they walk out with this idea that they're all super-soldiers with adamantium swords and basically gods among men, when it really isn't the truth at all.

It would be like finding out someone's only exposure to World War II was after watching Inglorious Basterds. Fun movie, but completely distorts the facts in every way.


I know exactly what he was trying to say, which makes it even more farking stupid.

Of course, it's not like the Greeks ever embellished historical stories about war to make it more entertaining to audiences.  What Snyder did was an insult to their culture.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-13 06:50:51 PM

BilltheThrill: What Snyder did was an insult to their culture.


I don't think what Snyder/Miller did was very insulting at all. Ancient Sparta by far was one of the more extreme cultural experiments ever undertaken by man. The city never numbered more than a few thousand people, and it was incredibly insular with its racial purity and bloodlines. Deformed infants were often inspected and tossed off a cliff if found to be defective in some way. With infant mortality already high enough as it was, it kept the population in check, but damned if you couldn't call that an anachronistic eugenics program. Sparta was obsessed with genetic purity and was literally trying to produce the perfect race, something mimical of the Greek gods they worshipped.

Other stuff that wasn't in the movie/comic:
- Children taken from their mothers at an early age and sent to an Academy/school/barracks/camp where they learn and train in the ways of Spartan martial society. At age 12, they must submit sexually to their superior officers as a right of passage.
- Women encouraged to dress up like boys on their wedding night so that the husband finds sex with her to be a familiar experience.
- Enslavement of all other populations on the Peloponnesus. More slaves than actual citizens in the city.

The Athenians were so repulsed and disgusted by Spartan society that during the Peloponnesian wars they sent a letter that threatened: "If we win we will annihilate every one of you, burn your town to the ground, salt your crops, destroy your works and strike your name from all records and inscriptions so that no one will know you have ever existed."

The Spartan reply, in that usual Laconic manner of theirs: "If."
 
2013-06-13 08:11:04 PM

Magorn: giving more screen time to this nonsense just sucks the air put of Amy chance for a good movie that tells the real story..just as the 300 pretty much killed a movie adaptation of "Gates of Fire" that was in the works at the same,e time-wjich is a real tragedy


Look, I would totally watch a Merchant-Ivory type movie about this subject. An epic that is intellectually sound AND with good effects and AMAZING actors. But, no one is going to bankroll that.
 
2013-06-13 08:55:55 PM

Ishkur: BilltheThrill: What Snyder did was an insult to their culture.

I don't think what Snyder/Miller did was very insulting at all. Ancient Sparta by far was one of the more extreme cultural experiments ever undertaken by man. The city never numbered more than a few thousand people, and it was incredibly insular with its racial purity and bloodlines. Deformed infants were often inspected and tossed off a cliff if found to be defective in some way. With infant mortality already high enough as it was, it kept the population in check, but damned if you couldn't call that an anachronistic eugenics program. Sparta was obsessed with genetic purity and was literally trying to produce the perfect race, something mimical of the Greek gods they worshipped.

Other stuff that wasn't in the movie/comic:
- Children taken from their mothers at an early age and sent to an Academy/school/barracks/camp where they learn and train in the ways of Spartan martial society. At age 12, they must submit sexually to their superior officers as a right of passage.
- Women encouraged to dress up like boys on their wedding night so that the husband finds sex with her to be a familiar experience.
- Enslavement of all other populations on the Peloponnesus. More slaves than actual citizens in the city.

The Athenians were so repulsed and disgusted by Spartan society that during the Peloponnesian wars they sent a letter that threatened: "If we win we will annihilate every one of you, burn your town to the ground, salt your crops, destroy your works and strike your name from all records and inscriptions so that no one will know you have ever existed."

The Spartan reply, in that usual Laconic manner of theirs: "If."


Good lord.  I remember a time when Fark mocked retards like this.  Now Fark IS retards like this.
 
2013-06-13 09:30:56 PM

dehehn: Son of Thunder: Did you seriously just equate a movie that (at some level) is supposed to be about historical stuff that actually happened with a comic book adaptation?

300 was also a comic book adaptation.  And that comic was also intended to be told as if was an oral history full of embellishments and mystical elements.  And this movie is about the Battles of Artemisium and Salamis which did happen right after Thermopylae so stop freaking out and thinking we're all in Idiocracy.  That's idiocy.


came to say this

/the end of 300 which showed that it was told as a story to rile up some troops pretty much spells this out, which is why in the movie many characters were so larger than life, literally and figuratively. It was exaggerated on purpose.
 
2013-06-13 09:32:00 PM

Lego_Addict: I'm going to make a movie about the ancient far east where Sun Tzu's opening of the first Zoo eventually causes the Zhou dynasty to collapse hundreds of years later. It's going to be a family friendly movie, a lighthearted comedy starring Jackie Chan. That will teach the kids about that period in antiquity.


I lovethe cut of your jib, Sir!
 
2013-06-14 12:25:28 AM

BilltheThrill: Of course, it's not like the Greeks ever embellished historical stories about war to make it more entertaining to audiences. What Snyder did was an insult to their culture.


Hell, Herodotus embellished the Thermopylae story.  There weren't a million Persians there, he just made that number up to make it look like even more of an underdog story than it already was.
 
2013-06-14 01:55:04 AM

omeganuepsilon: TheJoe03: FLMountainMan: Making it the first movie ever to use artifical means to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.  Oh, and Greeks were paler then.

I know, Hollywood had been racist for a long time. Brown to them is bad and white is good. I also know Greeks are lighter than Persians, but they never looked like pale northern Europeans.

They didn't speak english either!!

How shiatty of them to not make it accurate!

It's necessary to take some liberties like that when appealing to an english speaking populace as a whole.

It's not even that Hollywood is racist, it that it believes a large chunk of the viewership would rather watch/believe/understand/empathize with the the european archetype.  They are not wrong.

You're like a person complaining there aren't enough whites on BET programming.

No, they're appealing to specific parts of real world culture and how they identify with characters on the screen.  It's not even racism of the populace at large, but typical human psychology.

Also, it's about uniformity of the cast within that given group, and what you have to work with as far as actors.  If you use an established actor for star power(pure marketing here), such as Butler, the rest of his people need to more or less resemble him or it breaks the illusion.  Accents, skin tone, etc.

It's not like you could put Jaime Foxx, Snoop Dog, Richard Prior, Tyler Perry, etc in these roles, same as you couldn't use Eminem, Jaime Kennedy, Mark Whalberg, Ben Afflec, Kevin Costner etc.

Using people with the european english(UK/Scot/Irish - to include australian) is simply standard, because most other accents are just too jarring to the viewer, and to most viewers, that accent inspires feelings of how people sounded back then even if they didn't).  Look how much flack Kevin Costner caught with his relatively light accent in Robin Hood.

But you can't use actual grecian or persian actors, there aren't enough that speak comprehensible(to the public at large) english to flesh out racial bodies of the times back then(that also fit the roles well). And even if you could, you lose the draw of star power that is a real thing with a purpose.  A lot of people don't like to watch "no-name" actors, at the very least, it's a risky thing.  Using stars that are known and have some following allows the viewer to not feel like it's a gamble.

It's not about racism at all.  It's about delivering the content that appeals to as many people as possible.

Give your race card a break man. Society has got enough problems without you attempting to create more.


Just making an observation, calm down. You typed a whole lot
 
2013-06-14 02:40:28 AM

TheJoe03: Just making an observation, calm down. You typed a whole lot


You think that was a whole lot?

You think a "whole lot" of words represents anger or something?  Does someone have to be on edge to type more than a few monosyllabic words?

And here, I thought you might be smart because you were talking about history, not one to be daunted by a "whole lot" of words.

Some things just take a "whole lot" of words to explain, some of them are even big words.  Sorry if I overshot my audience.
 
2013-06-14 02:43:57 AM

omeganuepsilon: TheJoe03: Just making an observation, calm down. You typed a whole lot

You think that was a whole lot?

You think a "whole lot" of words represents anger or something?  Does someone have to be on edge to type more than a few monosyllabic words?

And here, I thought you might be smart because you were talking about history, not one to be daunted by a "whole lot" of words.

Some things just take a "whole lot" of words to explain, some of them are even big words.  Sorry if I overshot my audience.


I just don't care enough to respond to your wall of text. You did little to dispel the notion of Hollywood racism and made a big deal about a little observation. Be more succinct next time.
 
xcv
2013-06-14 04:21:36 AM

piney: dehehn: Son of Thunder: Did you seriously just equate a movie that (at some level) is supposed to be about historical stuff that actually happened with a comic book adaptation?

300 was also a comic book adaptation.  And that comic was also intended to be told as if was an oral history full of embellishments and mystical elements.  And this movie is about the Battles of Artemisium and Salamis which did happen right after Thermopylae so stop freaking out and thinking we're all in Idiocracy.  That's idiocy.

came to say this

/the end of 300 which showed that it was told as a story to rile up some troops pretty much spells this out, which is why in the movie many characters were so larger than life, literally and figuratively. It was exaggerated on purpose.


Exactly, the Spartans weren't going to boast how they simply slaughtered thousands of conscripted slaves and peasants, they were telling tales of how they took on the horrifying monsters that their mythological heroes fought.
 
2013-06-14 04:56:26 AM

Ishkur: BilltheThrill: What Snyder did was an insult to their culture.

I don't think what Snyder/Miller did was very insulting at all. Ancient Sparta by far was one of the more extreme cultural experiments ever undertaken by man. The city never numbered more than a few thousand people, and it was incredibly insular with its racial purity and bloodlines. Deformed infants were often inspected and tossed off a cliff if found to be defective in some way. With infant mortality already high enough as it was, it kept the population in check, but damned if you couldn't call that an anachronistic eugenics program. Sparta was obsessed with genetic purity and was literally trying to produce the perfect race, something mimical of the Greek gods they worshipped.

Other stuff that wasn't in the movie/comic:
- Children taken from their mothers at an early age and sent to an Academy/school/barracks/camp where they learn and train in the ways of Spartan martial society. At age 12, they must submit sexually to their superior officers as a right of passage.
- Women encouraged to dress up like boys on their wedding night so that the husband finds sex with her to be a familiar experience.
- Enslavement of all other populations on the Peloponnesus. More slaves than actual citizens in the city.

The Athenians were so repulsed and disgusted by Spartan society that during the Peloponnesian wars they sent a letter that threatened: "If we win we will annihilate every one of you, burn your town to the ground, salt your crops, destroy your works and strike your name from all records and inscriptions so that no one will know you have ever existed."

The Spartan reply, in that usual Laconic manner of theirs: "If."


citiationneeded.jpg
 
2013-06-14 07:29:16 AM

browntimmy: Modified Cornstarch: brunette fivehead alert

Are guys unaware of how much they sound like biatchy queens when they write stuff like this?


HA!
 
2013-06-14 10:56:39 AM

NewportBarGuy: I don't really care if it gets people to read the Classics. The stories of ancient Greece and Rome should be told in this way so future generations can at least have a tenuous grasp on what they did to found modern civilization.

We can't make them read Plato's Republic or Livy or Herodotus... But these movies at least give them a fantastical glimpse of what occurred thousands of years ago. Let us just hope they learn from it and not use it as a model.


I actually learned more about the Roman Empire in Fallout: New Vegas than anyone ever taught me in school. I used Google and Wikipedia to confirm things like decimatio and frumentarii, and it inspired me to look into The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Anyway, 300 was still a boring film. Lots of goofy spectacle with little content.
 
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