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(ABC)   Girl recovering after controversial lung surgery. Parents breathe a sigh of relief   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 94
    More: Spiffy, lung transplant, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, WPVI, Steve Harvey, respiratory failure, lungs, Health and Human Services  
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3994 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 12:11 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 12:17:26 AM  
Medical ethics can be a biatch. Spending a hundred thousand to rescue a 10 year old or a 70 year old are each a bit wasteful compared to the same spending on a person in their 20's or 30's.

Okay, maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of an economist, but still...
 
2013-06-13 12:20:53 AM  
"Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.
 
2013-06-13 12:21:15 AM  
That was rather quick. Call me a cynical bastard, but I knew she was going to get the lung. Now that she was in popular media, there's no way she'd be left to die.
 
2013-06-13 12:22:37 AM  
I'm glad. Best wishes, Sarah.
 
2013-06-13 12:23:21 AM  
Big shout out to motorcyclists and states with no helmet laws for the lung donation.
 
2013-06-13 12:23:34 AM  
It was still a bad ruling.
 
2013-06-13 12:24:04 AM  
That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Granted, she only had, what, less than a month to live? Still, even if they were court-approved to sidestep one part of the rules, that shouldn't give them free license to sidestep them all
 
2013-06-13 12:26:58 AM  
White male privilege strikes again.
 
2013-06-13 12:29:34 AM  
I'm surprised a compatible donor was found so quickly.  But maybe they've learned how to wash the rejection bits out of lungs.
 
2013-06-13 12:29:52 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


There really aren't any hoops, there's just a waiting list.  Bureaucracy and the doctors literally cannot make the process any faster, it's literally so fast that the limitations consist solely of direct products of the laws of physics.

The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

//Before you ask, yes, I am, so I can legitimately claim not to be contributing to the problem.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:22 AM  

Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.


It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:40 AM  
I don't agree with it, but good for her I guess.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:42 AM  
One of the reasons that the list exists and doctors aren't allowed to ignore the rules is that doctors don't want to, nor should they be allowed to, play god anymore than they already do. Deciding that this girl gets the lung that would have gone to someone else is a huge decision since, as I understand, there are less organs than people in need. Someone will more than likely die because she jumped up on the list. The media will focus on this girl being saved and quietly ignore the person highest up on the list (maybe 5th or 6th) that dies because lungs free up a day or two too late.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:44 AM  

Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.


Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.
 
2013-06-13 12:33:31 AM  

FormlessOne: Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.

It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.


That was already the case. Or did you think Steve Jobs just got lucky?

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-13 12:34:58 AM  
t.qkme.meNo ridiculously photogenic girl, Fark?! I am disappoint!
 
2013-06-13 12:35:21 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.


I am as well, but my lungs are out of play: Smoker. It was the first box I checked 20 years ago when I got my license. I'm not being selfish by any stretch of the imagination. But I feel there ARE ways to make the process faster. Like, say, stem cell research. If it were unrestricted, then there's a pretty good chance that either a cure for CF could be found, or at least custom organs could be grown tailored to each patient. Granted, there'd still be a (fairly long) wait until these two options became a reality, but in the long run, it'd be worth it. Unfortunately, with all the "obstacles" to the progression of medical science, we have to sit here and play what if while people of all ages like this girl are made to sit in limbo.
 
2013-06-13 12:41:01 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.
 
2013-06-13 12:41:02 AM  
Anyone want to predict her parents' reaction if she winds up not surviving beyond her expected survival without the transplant?
 
2013-06-13 12:41:08 AM  

FormlessOne: Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.

It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.


If that's not a good incentive to work hard to stop being poor then I don't know what is.

/not poor
//just broke
 
2013-06-13 12:43:34 AM  
I vaguely remember something about a story where they did/wanted to raise brainless chickens or something along those lines for mass poultry.
Why not do something like that for humans so we have a healthy supply of people parts or would that just be way too over the top for some people?

/I admit I didn't read the chicken story in its entirety so I may not have gotten the gist of it and could be way off base on 1) If it was true, and 2) What the goal was.
//Anywho, isn't this something along the lines of what stem cell research and the like hope to achieve?
///Is actual progress being shunted yet again in the developed world?
 
2013-06-13 12:50:31 AM  
Only assholes use the word 'controversial'

/Sorry subby, but you are a puppet of the media machine.

//1 out of 100,000 people don't like the black president and the controversy that surrounds him. Is 'controversy' racism? You Betcha. But that would be fully open to write that, instead of "some people are complete assholes. News video at eleven".
 
2013-06-13 12:51:24 AM  
They put a part that could have gone into someone else, in a genetically deficient individual. I'm sure the patients she bypassed are breathing easier knowing she was saved instead of them.

And since we're ok using parts not intended for our size, let us have our aborted fetus stem cells so we can grow them into something large enough for us.
 
2013-06-13 12:52:25 AM  

JPINFV: Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.


You just missed my last comment. Your sarcastic reply is actually more in the realm of possibility now, if we could get over these so-called "moral objections" that a vocal minority has.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:45 AM  
I'm extremely unhappy with this, because it opens the door for organ priority based on whose lawyers and bought and paid for medical experts can tell the best sob story in court, as opposed organs being allocated based on medical need.

This is exactly the kind of decision that should be based on some kind of formula crafted by medical professionals and done in a dispassionate manner, at least until we reach a point where we can grow anything and everything from stem cells so organ donor is a thing of the past.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:52 AM  
We get it.  He's black.  And it burns your over privileged soul.
 
2013-06-13 12:58:21 AM  

Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.


I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.  I tried lying but I still have the accent.
 
2013-06-13 12:59:02 AM  

Mawson of the Antarctic: That was rather quick. Call me a cynical bastard, but I knew she was going to get the lung. Now that she was in popular media, there's no way she'd be left to die.


Yup.
 
2013-06-13 12:59:07 AM  

ha-ha-guy: I'm extremely unhappy with this, because it opens the door for organ priority based on whose lawyers and bought and paid for medical experts can tell the best sob story in court, as opposed organs being allocated based on medical need.

This is exactly the kind of decision that should be based on some kind of formula crafted by medical professionals and done in a dispassionate manner, at least until we reach a point where we can grow anything and everything from stem cells so organ donor is a thing of the past.


You mean death panels.............
 
2013-06-13 01:00:12 AM  

Vangor: Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.


If you can get a judge to put on a list, that means you can get a judge to move you higher on that list.  The act of the judge ordering you to be put on the list is the judge saying "The courts can control this list."
 
2013-06-13 01:02:43 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because there is a limited amount of donors, especially compatible donors.
 
2013-06-13 01:02:53 AM  
Common Sense -1
Death Panels - 0
 
2013-06-13 01:03:58 AM  
White girl.....amirite?  Black girl would have died.  No media.  Just a destroyed Mother.  Father unknown.
 
2013-06-13 01:07:48 AM  

Great Janitor: Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.  I tried lying but I still have the accent.


Normally I wear protection, but then I thought, "When am I gonna make it back to Haiti?"
 
2013-06-13 01:09:08 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because of the grim reality that there is only so many lungs to go around and there is not enough tissue to help everyone to those who need them. The same goes for corneas, livers, hearts, really any organ that we can transplant. Which is why the biological and chemical sciences need our support in farming organs for transplant. Once we make that breakthrough, we no longer need to face that reality and everyone can get the tissue they require to continue their lives.
 
2013-06-13 01:10:42 AM  

ha-ha-guy: If you can get a judge to put on a list, that means you can get a judge to move you higher on that list.  The act of the judge ordering you to be put on the list is the judge saying "The courts can control this list."


Didn't say this was impossible, said this wasn't what happened as per the story, at least nothing substantiates this was done; I am, in fact, in agreement with you the list should not be controlled by media frenzy and court orders because the systems are in place to best utilize our limited resources (which I said in what you quoted). The adult organ donor lists are massive compared to those for children, but this means she basically leaps a massive amount of people due to the severity of her condition, giving the appearance of preference due to the courts or media, which is reasonable but, again, unsubstantiated speculation.
 
2013-06-13 01:11:34 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Sadly, mandatory motorcycle helmet laws shrink the donor pool.
 
2013-06-13 01:15:04 AM  

AttawaYawattA: Big shout out to motorcyclists and states with no helmet laws for the lung donation.


And for the inevitable toxo infection!
 
2013-06-13 01:17:38 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Well, there's the whole...you have to wait until someone dies hoop.
 
2013-06-13 01:22:29 AM  
She won against the death panel.
She will probably be audited for the rest of her life.
 
2013-06-13 01:22:58 AM  
Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.

And I still think that having judges, not doctors, make decisions about organ transplants -- especially when lawsuits, media coverage, and public pressure get involved -- is a bad idea. I can understand why the parents wanted their little girl to live, even at the cost of another person's life. Humans are like that. But the whole idea of ranked lists and sterile, unfeeling criteria is to base transplant decisions on medical probabilities, not emotions and publicity. There's a crushing shortage of donor organs (hey, those of you who chose not to donate your organs, choose differently) and they need to go to the person they're the best match for, not the person with the best lawyer or the best publicist.

And while we celebrate the fact that this little girl will live a while longer, let's not lose sight of the fact that someone else will die because the lungs that could have saved him or her were given to someone who, prior to a judge's order, was not eligible. Until there are enough organs to go around, it's always a trade of a life for a life. The decision of which to choose should not be made by a judge.
 
2013-06-13 01:23:41 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

The controversy should be why the Federal Government has to step in to override an organization created by the Federal Government.

 
2013-06-13 01:26:40 AM  

Worldwalker: Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.

And I still think that having judges, not doctors, make decisions about organ transplants -- especially when lawsuits, media coverage, and public pressure get involved -- is a bad idea. I can understand why the parents wanted their little girl to live, even at the cost of another person's life. Humans are like that. But the whole idea of ranked lists and sterile, unfeeling criteria is to base transplant decisions on medical probabilities, not emotions and publicity. There's a crushing shortage of donor organs (hey, those of you who chose not to donate your organs, choose differently) and they need to go to the person they're the best match for, not the person with the best lawyer or the best publicist.

And while we celebrate the fact that this little

white girl will live a while longer, let's not lose sight of the fact that someone else will die because the lungs that could have saved him or her were given to someone who, prior to a judge's order, was not eligible. Until there are enough organs to go around, it's always a trade of a life for a life. The decision of which to choose should not be made by a judge.

FFMH
 
2013-06-13 01:27:47 AM  
I would assume that once she was on the adult list she would have basically been at the top of it considering she had really just days to live, maybe a couple weeks at best. Who is the "worst" is really hard to determine with any accuracy in any case.

/spare us all the "white privilege" BS.
 
2013-06-13 01:29:24 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


The controversial part would be to shove the adult lungs into her body they have to basically chop off most of the lungs and use lobes from each because that whole "adult lungs won't fit along with her heart in that kid sized chest cavity".  Which means she as a capped lung capacity and will require a new set of adult lungs sooner than a 16 year old who would have had an equivalent transplant.  Say 1 set of lungs will give someone 10 years of life, in this girl we're going to have to give her 2 sets of lungs to give her the same amount of life... which basically means we've decided the life of 1 person is worth 2.

Mind you stem cell research and 10 some odd years of unfettered scientific research could have made this all a moot point, but idiots believing in fairies is why we're stuck with by my count 4 layers of fail.

(the 3rd layer of fail would be, 'why not harvest pluripotent cells from the cord, homologous recombination for a new CF gene then some chemical differentiation later -- new host type lungs that aren't made of parental fail).

(layer 4 would be "oh hey at least one of us is a CF carrier maybe we should adopt")

But I farking hate humanity.
 
2013-06-13 01:30:26 AM  

Great Janitor: I can not be an organ donor. I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma. There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma. Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health. I tried lying but I still have the accent.


I'd say if you kick the bucket, they could as least ask patients of they want to take the risk of getting the mad cow.  A 65 year old lady lady that needs new kidney, or 35 year old man that needs a new set of lungs, would probably take the risk.

lohphat: Sadly, mandatory motorcycle helmet laws shrink the donor pool.


I think in the not too distant future people will get organs printed up from stem cells which will render this mostly an economic issue.
 
2013-06-13 01:31:08 AM  

JPINFV: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.


If people cared about healthcare, they would volunteer one of their lungs.
But no, it is always take someone else's lung or wait until they die.
 
2013-06-13 01:33:25 AM  
Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

/Pretty sure LifeShare in my state helped fund the groups that repealed the state's helmet law for anyone over 18.... They also required increased medical insurance for the motorcyclists.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:07 AM  

Worldwalker: Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.


meh.  if you really cared, you wouldn't wait until you were dead to donate some organs.  You don't need both lungs or both kidneys.  It is easy to give up something when you no longer need them.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:40 AM  
Terry Schiavo, Part II: Electric Boogaloo
 
2013-06-13 01:37:19 AM  
Propain_az:

And while we celebrate the fact that this little white girl will live a while longer, let's not lose sight of the fact that someone else will die because the lungs that could have saved him or her were given to someone who, prior to a judge's order, was not eligible. Until there are enough organs to go around, it's always a trade of a life for a life. The decision of which to choose should not be made by a judge.

FFMH


yeah, those death panels are tough to deal with.
 
2013-06-13 01:37:40 AM  

thehobbes: Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.


LOL wut?
 
2013-06-13 01:40:18 AM  

Great Janitor: Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.   I tried lying but I still have the accent.


well, aren't you special.  so very, very special.
second guessing the medical community and trying to lie and put people at risk of dying.
I am glad you failed in your lying.
 
2013-06-13 01:41:23 AM  
I read 3 other kids in the same hospital were in the same under 12 boat.  I hope her parents visit their graves if they should perish without donor lungs.
 
2013-06-13 01:43:01 AM  

dirtiest_sanchez: Terry Schiavo, Part II: Electric Boogaloo


More or less people that have no idea about medicine makeing bad choices for political points

/ willing donor but they won't take them in case the gay turns out to be contagious
 
2013-06-13 01:47:39 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because MATCHING LUNGS ARE RARE.
 
2013-06-13 01:48:19 AM  

FizixJunkee: thehobbes: Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

LOL wut?



If they transfer the patient to a different hospital, they don't get the money from the ensuing ICU stays, OR time, dozens of other medical expenses. Plus they get the possibility of good PR and possibly being listed in a medical journal.  The transplant services themselves also do lobby and schmooze hospital staff with pens, meals, other small accessories much like the pharmaceutical industry does.

Plus normally Medicare pays well for these treatments so the hospital is guaranteed reimbursement.
www.hallconsultingservices.com="" target="_blank" a="">http://www.hallconsultingservices.com/index-5-services-organacqu isitio n.html

tl;dr: Organ Procurement is big business.
 
2013-06-13 01:49:50 AM  

Worldwalker: And I still think that having judges, not doctors, make decisions about organ transplants -- especially when lawsuits, media coverage, and public pressure get involved -- is a bad idea


I completely 100% agree with this.  But then again, I am one of those weird people who believes that we'd have cheaper and better healthcare if we left the courts out of the hospitals and limited the role of the government in the hospitals.  For example, I broke my hand on Sunday.  Broke the 4th metacarpal in two on my right hand.  In triage the nurse had to ask me, by law, questions about if I was thinking of hurting myself in the past 30 days or if I was living in fear of spousal abuse when I go home.  On the surface these sound like good questions.  However, even if the answer is yes, who'd say it?
 
2013-06-13 01:54:50 AM  
Smart, give the lungs to a fat girl, with fat parents so they can crowd up earth. Maybe the government should get a self-restraint transplant for these obese farks.
 
2013-06-13 01:57:40 AM  

FizixJunkee: thehobbes: Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

LOL wut?


My mother recently had replacement knee surgery. The operation itself was 4k. The few days stay in the hospital after the surgery? Additional 60k. To lay in a bed and be looked in on.
Isn't relevant to the story here but yes I agree, hospitals make bank the longer you are there.
 
2013-06-13 02:02:25 AM  

thehobbes: Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

/Pretty sure LifeShare in my state helped fund the groups that repealed the state's helmet law for anyone over 18.... They also required increased medical insurance for the motorcyclists.


That's because they prep the organs to extend viability by various methods instead of just flying them around as part of a rotting corpse, not to mention a small cooler of organs is easier to move than a whole meatbag, along with the fact that donor gets shared by multiple sickies.  And the reason they don't fly the sick to meet the organs is because they're too sick to do basic things like maintain body functions so they get to be a poorman's cyborg at the hospital and shiat in bed pans while they wait for somebody to have bad luck or be a moron.
 
2013-06-13 02:02:44 AM  
How's the guy who didn't get the lung doing?  Medical policy through political pressure.  Way to go, Science.
 
2013-06-13 02:02:57 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Great Janitor: Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.   I tried lying but I still have the accent.

well, aren't you special.  so very, very special.
second guessing the medical community and trying to lie and put people at risk of dying.
I am glad you failed in your lying.


I was lying to sell plasma.  Now, keep in mind that before the new rules went into place, I was already donating blood and selling plasma.  Then the rules changed and I was disqualified.  If my plasma was bad, they didn't find any problems before and the damage was already done.  Plus I am not in bad health due to my blood.

Also remember, things that also disqualify you for blood donation and plasma selling include prostitution (visiting and being one), being from or visiting the vast majority of Africa, drug use and men who have had gay sex (though, rumor has it, that is no longer a ban, but why can I have butt sex with Rachel and it's just peachy, but have butt sex with her brother and suddenly I'm barred from blood donation?).

I don't worry about it any more.  It only matters when the boss man wants us all to donate to the blood mobile when it comes to the office.  I explain and it's all good.
 
2013-06-13 02:05:36 AM  
Is bringing up the death panels really necessary here? Seems like a separate thing, but people are of course going to use this to score points on Sebelius. That is all I have to say.
 
2013-06-13 02:18:46 AM  

Carlip: Smart, give the lungs to a fat girl, with fat parents so they can crowd up earth. Maybe the government should get a self-restraint transplant for these obese farks.


You're probably just another asshole who's never heard of prednisone and is unaware of its role in treating lung inflammation in cystic fibrosis patients. But honestly, there's no circle of hell deep enough for you.
 
2013-06-13 02:20:38 AM  

flemardo: thehobbes: Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

/Pretty sure LifeShare in my state helped fund the groups that repealed the state's helmet law for anyone over 18.... They also required increased medical insurance for the motorcyclists.

That's because they prep the organs to extend viability by various methods instead of just flying them around as part of a rotting corpse, not to mention a small cooler of organs is easier to move than a whole meatbag, along with the fact that donor gets shared by multiple sickies.  And the reason they don't fly the sick to meet the organs is because they're too sick to do basic things like maintain body functions so they get to be a poorman's cyborg at the hospital and shiat in bed pans while they wait for somebody to have bad luck or be a moron.


Outside of family concerns for locality, most patients can be prepped for transport. Outside of someone actively getting ECMO (and some highly trained flight crews can handle that even). Liver failure patients, there isn't really a constant machine keeping them going, Intraaortic balloon pumps are becoming more portable, an intubated patient and transport ventilators are easy, Dialyze the patient before transport for renal failure.... Pumps are portable as well and PICC and central lines are easily maintained.

Crews do critical transports all the time. If anything a good transport crew (RNs and Medics) actually pay closer attention due to it being a 2 provider to 1 patient ratio instead of the 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of an ICU. 
 I still can't see how it makes more sense to cool the organ (and there isn't much more to do than that) and have EMS/some areas PD run the organ emergent to save time to get the organ in place than move the meatbag.  The cyborg is going to be shiatting itself anyways, can do it in either city. 

Seems more likely its for the doctor/hospital convenience.

/for the lulz  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/jan/13/medics-mexico-drop- h eart-video
 
2013-06-13 02:28:05 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: well, aren't you special.  so very, very special.


He admitted he was a thief a few years ago as well.  Thread 5135020 he admitted to depriving someone of property and justified it in the same thread.  Cause criminal activities are fun and harmless, or something.
 
2013-06-13 02:40:42 AM  
I'm gonna laugh if she grows up to be a stripper or pornstar.
 
2013-06-13 02:49:05 AM  
what i'm not seeing mentioned by anyone is the fact that we are headed for an even more "bureaucratic" government administered health care system. are you sure you want the IRS in charge of your health decisions? shouldn't that be between you and your doctor? not you and your government?
 
2013-06-13 02:52:10 AM  

davidphogan: tenpoundsofcheese: well, aren't you special.  so very, very special.

He admitted he was a thief a few years ago as well.  Thread 5135020 he admitted to depriving someone of property and justified it in the same thread.  Cause criminal activities are fun and harmless, or something.


I can't even remember the names of the people I talk to in threads.
That's certainly a gift you have there.
 
2013-06-13 03:00:13 AM  

thehobbes: That's because they prep the organs to extend viability by various methods instead of just flying them around as part of a rotting corpse, not to mention a small cooler of organs is easier to move than a whole meatbag, along with the fact that donor gets shared by multiple sickies.  And the reason they don't fly the sick to meet the organs is because they're too sick to do basic things like maintain body functions so they get to be a poorman's cyborg at the hospital and shiat in bed pans while they wait for somebody to have bad luck or be a moron.

Outside of family concerns for locality, most patients can be prepped for transport. Outside of someone actively getting ECMO (and some highly trained flight crews can handle that even). Liver failure patients, there isn't really a constant machine keeping them going, Intraaortic balloon pumps are becoming more portable, an intubated patient and transport ventilators are easy, Dialyze the patient before transport for renal failure.... Pumps are portable as well and PICC and central lines are easily maintained.



None of what you're saying remotely makes the slightest bit of sense if you actually work in healthcare. A critically ill patient is never "easy" to transfer and is *always* more unstable when being transferred. With our highly unstable patients, we often don't go down the hall to CT without at least two RNs, RT, and a doctor. What if your liver patient bust a varice while being transferred? Neither the medic nor the RN can band it. You're SOL.

Not all hospitals have the ICU monitoring capabilities or the surgical specialists to deal with a transplant. And we fly in surgical specialists all the time to harvest organs. I work at a large academic teaching center. We do livers and kidneys and hearts. Our last harvest -- we flew in the heart team from NYC, an eye team from Texas, and a lung team from...Iowa I think? And the organs got distributed all over the US. The heart patient was in NYC so the heart team flew in, took the heart, and then took it back to NYC to transplant.
 
2013-06-13 03:34:22 AM  
Congratulations, daytime television watching America.  You just killed someone else.
 
2013-06-13 03:54:14 AM  
Liver patient busts a varices? You're right. That person will need banding that can be done quickly however if it is a large variceal rupture, odds are they won't even make it to the procedure even in the hospital, and if small bleeding, fluids and reversing coagulation can buy time.

That person does need an endoscopy pretty quickly. However in our hospitals the doctor doesn't follow ICU patients to the CT, (Exception is trauma services). As far as routine ICU patients, normally i see a tech, RT, and RN going for transport. Rarely have I ever seen the docs following patients to the scanner, and even if they did, they don't have the scope or a Blakemore tube in hand during that transport to CT. So yes, if the ticking timebomb randomly goes off that is more poor luck than anything else, but if a bad enough bleed they couldn't be stabilized, they're SOL anyways.

Not really sure how being moving necessarily *always* makes a patient more unstable. Its less controlled for sure, but with good transport crews and training the risk will be mitigated. Many times flight crews assist, especially in rural areas, in the stabilization of the patient in the ER. Hell, many of our flight services have Nurse Practitioners in the flight nurse role as is, and NICU/ECMO teams are now having mid level practitioners on the transport crew. Air transport in my area even has tube thoracostomy and pericardiocentesis as an advanced paramedic level skill.

Your second paragraph is where I agree with you. However it makes much more sense to move the patient's and donor to the same location where you have more highly specialized facility/equipment/personnel, instead of moving everything/everybody separately, with the greater benefit of not worrying about losing the viability of an organ due to delays. Unexpected delays happen, and being from Oklahoma, weather is always a huge factor and it would be horrible to lose an organ due to the weather delaying the transplant team's flight.

/I've gotten to watch a few harvests, it's a gutwrenching experience for sure.
 
2013-06-13 03:56:27 AM  

thehobbes: The transplant services themselves also do lobby and schmooze hospital staff with pens, meals, other small accessories much like the pharmaceutical industry does.


The fark you talking about. Taking just a pen or free lunch will get you fired.
 
2013-06-13 04:14:00 AM  
 

hardinparamedic: thehobbes: The transplant services themselves also do lobby and schmooze hospital staff with pens, meals, other small accessories much like the pharmaceutical industry does.

The fark you talking about. Taking just a pen or free lunch will get you fired.


Maybe at your facility. Maybe its a selective thing depending on your facility/employer. Drug companies voluntarily stopped it, however hospitals, air ambulance services, medical supply companies, hospice, and harvest coordination services still do it. Hell, our local ER physician group provides us with shears/shear holders with their logo on them.

Its not illegal by any means, the AMA even puts out guidelines for swag.
http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/code-medical-ethics/8061a.pdf
 
2013-06-13 05:19:14 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: JPINFV: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.

If people cared about healthcare, they would volunteer one of their lungs.
But no, it is always take someone else's lung or wait until they die.


If it was my own lung would be available, if needed. How did this family make the news and get right to the top of the food chain? That's what amazes me.
 
2013-06-13 05:47:20 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.



eastvalleynewsnet.com
 
2013-06-13 06:01:12 AM  

Lt_Ryan: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

The controversy should be why the Federal Government has to step in to override an organization created by the Federal Government.


It will only get worse:

subconch.files.wordpress.com


Anybody find it odd that a healthcare program needs an enforcement agency and that agency is the IRS?
 
2013-06-13 06:16:41 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Hm, I dunno, because things like replacement organs....aren't readily available and need exceeds supply?  Hearts for everybody!
 
2013-06-13 06:22:21 AM  
cardex

/ willing donor but they won't take them in case the gay turns out to be contagious


it'd be safe for a straight woman to take your organs

/there's a 'hilarious' joke there but I'm only on my fourth cup of coffee
 
2013-06-13 06:26:28 AM  

pornopose: How did this family make the news and get right to the top of the food chain? That's what amazes me.


The girl's likelihood of surviving surgery and benefiting from a transplant coupled with her urgent need.

What surprises me is that compatible tissue became available so quickly.
 
2013-06-13 06:35:32 AM  

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


I'm not a doctor, nor do I don't play one one TV.  But I'm guessing that the statute in question applied to whether or not adult lungs would even FIT in the body of someone who is only 12.

In most cases, that would almost certainly be relevant.  In this case, she appears to be a pretty robust little girl, and her chest cavity had the room.  And for a change, the courts looked at this quickly, and made the decision in time to literally save her life.

//It's getting dusty in here.
 
2013-06-13 06:56:56 AM  
hasty ambush: Lt_Ryan: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

The controversy should be why the Federal Government has to step in to override an organization created by the Federal Government.

It will only get worse:

[subconch.files.wordpress.com image 645x992]


Anybody find it odd that a healthcare program needs an enforcement agency and that agency is the IRS?


Nope, I don't.
This thing is a screwjob not unlike social security. It starts by offering an essential service (that you pay for, with your money) and slowly twists into a handy expense account for politicos to dip into (both by increasing the overhead for this service and by directly raiding the accounts for cash).
Next thing you know your hard earned cash is being used to openly pay off the insurance lobbyists at a higher cost than what it would have taken to simply buy the health care system.

The IRS is run by unscrupulous imps who are accustomed to judging people by numbers on a sheet of paper. They'll have no problem metering out fines like a bureaucratic "death panel" and there isn't a Medic in the loop to say otherwise.
Just thousands of arbitrarily applied rules.

/...and its a disturbing thing when we've come to the point where saving a young girls life is controversial.
/Its understandable that people die for lack of an organ, but not so much when they die because of a "you must be this tall to ride" placard at the hospital entrance.
/It should have been left at a doctors discretion, not a bureaucrats.
 
2013-06-13 07:07:40 AM  
So was this a permanent rule change based on rational considerations brought up by this case, in which case that is fine, or was this "little white girl gets put in front"? Because that's bullshiat.
 
2013-06-13 07:22:34 AM  

YixilTesiphon: So was this a permanent rule change based on rational considerations brought up by this case, in which case that is fine, or was this "little white girl gets put in front"? Because that's bullshiat.


Between that and the media portrayal pulling on everyone's heart strings and the repercussions of exploiting this family's troubles for monetary gain in ratings...  a little of column a, a little of column b.

For the most part medicare at least keeps its administrative costs down and no profit incentive. Having federal employees doing the enforcement versus letting the market decide isn't a bad thing.

Well written peer reviewed article that refutes alot of the anti single payer arguments
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15759557  For the pubmed
http://www.pnhpwesternwashington.org/pnhp_classic_papers/Refuting%20 Co nserve%20Myths.pdf  Direct link
 
2013-06-13 07:29:01 AM  
For her sake I hope she doesn't leave the hospital and get hit by a bus.
 
2013-06-13 08:31:46 AM  
Patiently waiting for the big media story about the death of the person she displaced on the transplant list.

Still waiting...
 
2013-06-13 09:05:50 AM  

kombat_unit: I read 3 other kids in the same hospital were in the same under 12 boat.  I hope her parents visit their graves if they should perish without donor lungs.


Actually, when this girl got placed on the adult list instead of the pediatric list each of those kids got bumped up a place, just like they would if she got a pediatric lung or died (she was already at the top of the pediatric list). On the other hand, those parents now get to see a kid get special treatment because her parents were able to hire lawyers.
 
2013-06-13 09:53:33 AM  

way south: hasty ambush: Lt_Ryan: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

The controversy should be why the Federal Government has to step in to override an organization created by the Federal Government.

It will only get worse:

[subconch.files.wordpress.com image 645x992]


Anybody find it odd that a healthcare program needs an enforcement agency and that agency is the IRS?

Nope, I don't.
This thing is a screwjob not unlike social security. It starts by offering an essential service (that you pay for, with your money) and slowly twists into a handy expense account for politicos to dip into (both by increasing the overhead for this service and by directly raiding the accounts for cash).
Next thing you know your hard earned cash is being used to openly pay off the insurance lobbyists at a higher cost than what it would have taken to simply buy the health care system.

The IRS is run by unscrupulous imps who are accustomed to judging people by numbers on a sheet of paper. They'll have no problem metering out fines like a bureaucratic "death panel" and there isn't a Medic in the loop to say otherwise.
Just thousands of arbitrarily applied rules.

/...and its a disturbing thing when we've come to the point where saving a young girls life is controversial.
/Its understandable that people die for lack of an organ, but not so much when they die because of a "you must be this tall to ride" placard at the hospital entrance.
/It should have been left at a doctors discretion, not a bureaucrats.


File OBAMACARE under good enough for thee but not for me:




Dozens of lawmakers and aides are so afraid that their health insurance premiums will skyrocket next year thanks to Obamacare that they are thinking about retiring early or just quitting.

The fear: Government-subsidized premiums will disappear at the end of the year under a provision in the health care law that nudges aides and lawmakers onto the government health care exchanges, which could make their benefits exorbitantly expensive.
The provision was put in the bill in the first place on the theory that if Congress was going to make the country live under the provisions of Obamacare, the members and staff should have to as well.

The uncertainty has created a growing furor on Capitol Hill with aides young and old worried about skyrocketing health care premiums cutting deeply into their already small paychecks. Some longtime aides and members of Congress, who previously had government subsidized health care for life, are concerned that their premiums will now come out of their pension.

If their fears are borne out, the results could be twofold. Some junior staff will head for the private sector early while more seasoned aides and lawmakers could leave before the end of the year so they can continue under the old plan.

 
2013-06-13 10:04:14 AM  
Man, I can't EVEN imagine what the parents of this little girl are going through...
 
2013-06-13 01:16:36 PM  

hardinparamedic: thehobbes: The transplant services themselves also do lobby and schmooze hospital staff with pens, meals, other small accessories much like the pharmaceutical industry does.

The fark you talking about. Taking just a pen or free lunch will get you fired.


Bullcrap. I let the sales rep buy me lunch any time he wants.

/The fact that I'm actually an accountant is irrelevant to the conversation
 
2013-06-13 03:04:10 PM  

Vangor: Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.


Expected long life?  The news said she will probably be dead in 5 years, even with the transplant.
 
2013-06-13 04:33:10 PM  

Mr. Titanium: Vangor: Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.

Expected long life?  The news said she will probably be dead in 5 years, even with the transplant.




5 years is your criteria? Isn't 5 years with a reoccurrence of cancer consider a success? What if it gave her 6 more? What if within 5 years they developed a treatment that would buy her another 30 years? What if "they" are wrong (been known to happen ) and she lives another 70 plus and discovers a cure for cancer or brings peace to the Middle East. (conversely you could argue she could be the next Countess Elizabeth Báthory or worse still a feminist I guess)
 
2013-06-13 04:37:03 PM  

justajonesin: what i'm not seeing mentioned by anyone is the fact that we are headed for an even more "bureaucratic" government administered health care system. are you sure you want the IRS in charge of your health decisions? shouldn't that be between you and your doctor? not you and your government?


How can I tell you've never had to deal with in any significant way with hospitals and health insurance?

Having dealt with both, I'll be more than happy for the IRS to handle my medical bills.  You know why.  Maybe the IRS gets things wrong. And the tax code is a little byzantine, thanks congress.  But it's nothing compared to insurance and hospital billing rules.  With the IRS, if you make a certain amount of money, with normal deductions, you can very precisely figure out what you're going to owe.  Try that with a hospital.  'How much for the gall bladder surgery?'  They can't tell you, because they have no idea. None.
 
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