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(ABC)   Girl recovering after controversial lung surgery. Parents breathe a sigh of relief   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 94
    More: Spiffy, lung transplant, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, WPVI, Steve Harvey, respiratory failure, lungs, Health and Human Services  
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3972 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jun 2013 at 12:11 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 12:17:26 AM
Medical ethics can be a biatch. Spending a hundred thousand to rescue a 10 year old or a 70 year old are each a bit wasteful compared to the same spending on a person in their 20's or 30's.

Okay, maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of an economist, but still...
 
2013-06-13 12:20:53 AM
"Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.
 
2013-06-13 12:21:15 AM
That was rather quick. Call me a cynical bastard, but I knew she was going to get the lung. Now that she was in popular media, there's no way she'd be left to die.
 
2013-06-13 12:22:37 AM
I'm glad. Best wishes, Sarah.
 
2013-06-13 12:23:21 AM
Big shout out to motorcyclists and states with no helmet laws for the lung donation.
 
2013-06-13 12:23:34 AM
It was still a bad ruling.
 
2013-06-13 12:24:04 AM
That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Granted, she only had, what, less than a month to live? Still, even if they were court-approved to sidestep one part of the rules, that shouldn't give them free license to sidestep them all
 
2013-06-13 12:26:58 AM
White male privilege strikes again.
 
2013-06-13 12:29:34 AM
I'm surprised a compatible donor was found so quickly.  But maybe they've learned how to wash the rejection bits out of lungs.
 
2013-06-13 12:29:52 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


There really aren't any hoops, there's just a waiting list.  Bureaucracy and the doctors literally cannot make the process any faster, it's literally so fast that the limitations consist solely of direct products of the laws of physics.

The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

//Before you ask, yes, I am, so I can legitimately claim not to be contributing to the problem.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:22 AM

Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.


It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.
 
2013-06-13 12:30:40 AM
I don't agree with it, but good for her I guess.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:42 AM
One of the reasons that the list exists and doctors aren't allowed to ignore the rules is that doctors don't want to, nor should they be allowed to, play god anymore than they already do. Deciding that this girl gets the lung that would have gone to someone else is a huge decision since, as I understand, there are less organs than people in need. Someone will more than likely die because she jumped up on the list. The media will focus on this girl being saved and quietly ignore the person highest up on the list (maybe 5th or 6th) that dies because lungs free up a day or two too late.
 
2013-06-13 12:32:44 AM

Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.


Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.
 
2013-06-13 12:33:31 AM

FormlessOne: Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.

It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.


That was already the case. Or did you think Steve Jobs just got lucky?

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-13 12:34:58 AM
t.qkme.meNo ridiculously photogenic girl, Fark?! I am disappoint!
 
2013-06-13 12:35:21 AM

Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.


I am as well, but my lungs are out of play: Smoker. It was the first box I checked 20 years ago when I got my license. I'm not being selfish by any stretch of the imagination. But I feel there ARE ways to make the process faster. Like, say, stem cell research. If it were unrestricted, then there's a pretty good chance that either a cure for CF could be found, or at least custom organs could be grown tailored to each patient. Granted, there'd still be a (fairly long) wait until these two options became a reality, but in the long run, it'd be worth it. Unfortunately, with all the "obstacles" to the progression of medical science, we have to sit here and play what if while people of all ages like this girl are made to sit in limbo.
 
2013-06-13 12:41:01 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.
 
2013-06-13 12:41:02 AM
Anyone want to predict her parents' reaction if she winds up not surviving beyond her expected survival without the transplant?
 
2013-06-13 12:41:08 AM

FormlessOne: Honest Bender: It was still a bad ruling.

It was, indeed, because it's opened what was a largely orderly process and introduced a "fast track" for anyone with enough money to hire an attorney. This ought to be fun to watch, as once again, the rich stomp the poor into the dirt.


If that's not a good incentive to work hard to stop being poor then I don't know what is.

/not poor
//just broke
 
2013-06-13 12:43:34 AM
I vaguely remember something about a story where they did/wanted to raise brainless chickens or something along those lines for mass poultry.
Why not do something like that for humans so we have a healthy supply of people parts or would that just be way too over the top for some people?

/I admit I didn't read the chicken story in its entirety so I may not have gotten the gist of it and could be way off base on 1) If it was true, and 2) What the goal was.
//Anywho, isn't this something along the lines of what stem cell research and the like hope to achieve?
///Is actual progress being shunted yet again in the developed world?
 
2013-06-13 12:50:31 AM
Only assholes use the word 'controversial'

/Sorry subby, but you are a puppet of the media machine.

//1 out of 100,000 people don't like the black president and the controversy that surrounds him. Is 'controversy' racism? You Betcha. But that would be fully open to write that, instead of "some people are complete assholes. News video at eleven".
 
2013-06-13 12:51:24 AM
They put a part that could have gone into someone else, in a genetically deficient individual. I'm sure the patients she bypassed are breathing easier knowing she was saved instead of them.

And since we're ok using parts not intended for our size, let us have our aborted fetus stem cells so we can grow them into something large enough for us.
 
2013-06-13 12:52:25 AM

JPINFV: Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.


You just missed my last comment. Your sarcastic reply is actually more in the realm of possibility now, if we could get over these so-called "moral objections" that a vocal minority has.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:45 AM
I'm extremely unhappy with this, because it opens the door for organ priority based on whose lawyers and bought and paid for medical experts can tell the best sob story in court, as opposed organs being allocated based on medical need.

This is exactly the kind of decision that should be based on some kind of formula crafted by medical professionals and done in a dispassionate manner, at least until we reach a point where we can grow anything and everything from stem cells so organ donor is a thing of the past.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:52 AM
We get it.  He's black.  And it burns your over privileged soul.
 
2013-06-13 12:58:21 AM

Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.


I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.  I tried lying but I still have the accent.
 
2013-06-13 12:59:02 AM

Mawson of the Antarctic: That was rather quick. Call me a cynical bastard, but I knew she was going to get the lung. Now that she was in popular media, there's no way she'd be left to die.


Yup.
 
2013-06-13 12:59:07 AM

ha-ha-guy: I'm extremely unhappy with this, because it opens the door for organ priority based on whose lawyers and bought and paid for medical experts can tell the best sob story in court, as opposed organs being allocated based on medical need.

This is exactly the kind of decision that should be based on some kind of formula crafted by medical professionals and done in a dispassionate manner, at least until we reach a point where we can grow anything and everything from stem cells so organ donor is a thing of the past.


You mean death panels.............
 
2013-06-13 01:00:12 AM

Vangor: Whazzits: That was fast. Makes me worried that they just bumped her to the top of all lists, instead of putting her behind others who would need lungs more.

Not what happened; she was simply given a new birth date which allowed her to be placed on the ranking system based on several factors to best direct resources in a triage type system. Due to her apparently extremely limited time, expected long life, and health aside from her lungs, she was ranked high.

I understand somewhat why this under twelve rule exists, but seems there should a system which accounts for likeliness of accepting the transplant on factors such as age/comparative size with an amount of priority given. For instance, if you are within X age of a donor organ, your score in the system compared to the donor organ would be boosted by Y%; seems simple.


If you can get a judge to put on a list, that means you can get a judge to move you higher on that list.  The act of the judge ordering you to be put on the list is the judge saying "The courts can control this list."
 
2013-06-13 01:02:43 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because there is a limited amount of donors, especially compatible donors.
 
2013-06-13 01:02:53 AM
Common Sense -1
Death Panels - 0
 
2013-06-13 01:03:58 AM
White girl.....amirite?  Black girl would have died.  No media.  Just a destroyed Mother.  Father unknown.
 
2013-06-13 01:07:48 AM

Great Janitor: Jim_Callahan: The reason there are delays is selfish bastards like you, assuming you're not an organ donor.  I guess you could be but statistically it's unlikely so I'm rolling the dice and blaming you personally anyhow.

I can not be an organ donor.  I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma.  There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma.  Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health.  I tried lying but I still have the accent.


Normally I wear protection, but then I thought, "When am I gonna make it back to Haiti?"
 
2013-06-13 01:09:08 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Because of the grim reality that there is only so many lungs to go around and there is not enough tissue to help everyone to those who need them. The same goes for corneas, livers, hearts, really any organ that we can transplant. Which is why the biological and chemical sciences need our support in farming organs for transplant. Once we make that breakthrough, we no longer need to face that reality and everyone can get the tissue they require to continue their lives.
 
2013-06-13 01:10:42 AM

ha-ha-guy: If you can get a judge to put on a list, that means you can get a judge to move you higher on that list.  The act of the judge ordering you to be put on the list is the judge saying "The courts can control this list."


Didn't say this was impossible, said this wasn't what happened as per the story, at least nothing substantiates this was done; I am, in fact, in agreement with you the list should not be controlled by media frenzy and court orders because the systems are in place to best utilize our limited resources (which I said in what you quoted). The adult organ donor lists are massive compared to those for children, but this means she basically leaps a massive amount of people due to the severity of her condition, giving the appearance of preference due to the courts or media, which is reasonable but, again, unsubstantiated speculation.
 
2013-06-13 01:11:34 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Sadly, mandatory motorcycle helmet laws shrink the donor pool.
 
2013-06-13 01:15:04 AM

AttawaYawattA: Big shout out to motorcyclists and states with no helmet laws for the lung donation.


And for the inevitable toxo infection!
 
2013-06-13 01:17:38 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


Well, there's the whole...you have to wait until someone dies hoop.
 
2013-06-13 01:22:29 AM
She won against the death panel.
She will probably be audited for the rest of her life.
 
2013-06-13 01:22:58 AM
Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.

And I still think that having judges, not doctors, make decisions about organ transplants -- especially when lawsuits, media coverage, and public pressure get involved -- is a bad idea. I can understand why the parents wanted their little girl to live, even at the cost of another person's life. Humans are like that. But the whole idea of ranked lists and sterile, unfeeling criteria is to base transplant decisions on medical probabilities, not emotions and publicity. There's a crushing shortage of donor organs (hey, those of you who chose not to donate your organs, choose differently) and they need to go to the person they're the best match for, not the person with the best lawyer or the best publicist.

And while we celebrate the fact that this little girl will live a while longer, let's not lose sight of the fact that someone else will die because the lungs that could have saved him or her were given to someone who, prior to a judge's order, was not eligible. Until there are enough organs to go around, it's always a trade of a life for a life. The decision of which to choose should not be made by a judge.
 
2013-06-13 01:23:41 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

The controversy should be why the Federal Government has to step in to override an organization created by the Federal Government.

 
2013-06-13 01:26:40 AM

Worldwalker: Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.

And I still think that having judges, not doctors, make decisions about organ transplants -- especially when lawsuits, media coverage, and public pressure get involved -- is a bad idea. I can understand why the parents wanted their little girl to live, even at the cost of another person's life. Humans are like that. But the whole idea of ranked lists and sterile, unfeeling criteria is to base transplant decisions on medical probabilities, not emotions and publicity. There's a crushing shortage of donor organs (hey, those of you who chose not to donate your organs, choose differently) and they need to go to the person they're the best match for, not the person with the best lawyer or the best publicist.

And while we celebrate the fact that this little

white girl will live a while longer, let's not lose sight of the fact that someone else will die because the lungs that could have saved him or her were given to someone who, prior to a judge's order, was not eligible. Until there are enough organs to go around, it's always a trade of a life for a life. The decision of which to choose should not be made by a judge.

FFMH
 
2013-06-13 01:27:47 AM
I would assume that once she was on the adult list she would have basically been at the top of it considering she had really just days to live, maybe a couple weeks at best. Who is the "worst" is really hard to determine with any accuracy in any case.

/spare us all the "white privilege" BS.
 
2013-06-13 01:29:24 AM

TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.


The controversial part would be to shove the adult lungs into her body they have to basically chop off most of the lungs and use lobes from each because that whole "adult lungs won't fit along with her heart in that kid sized chest cavity".  Which means she as a capped lung capacity and will require a new set of adult lungs sooner than a 16 year old who would have had an equivalent transplant.  Say 1 set of lungs will give someone 10 years of life, in this girl we're going to have to give her 2 sets of lungs to give her the same amount of life... which basically means we've decided the life of 1 person is worth 2.

Mind you stem cell research and 10 some odd years of unfettered scientific research could have made this all a moot point, but idiots believing in fairies is why we're stuck with by my count 4 layers of fail.

(the 3rd layer of fail would be, 'why not harvest pluripotent cells from the cord, homologous recombination for a new CF gene then some chemical differentiation later -- new host type lungs that aren't made of parental fail).

(layer 4 would be "oh hey at least one of us is a CF carrier maybe we should adopt")

But I farking hate humanity.
 
2013-06-13 01:30:26 AM

Great Janitor: I can not be an organ donor. I found this out 12 years ago when I went to sell plasma. There are places that if you lived there during certain time periods you are prohibited from organ and blood donation as well as selling plasma. Since I lived n the wrong country at the wrong time, I fall into the category of barred from donation, even though I am in great health. I tried lying but I still have the accent.


I'd say if you kick the bucket, they could as least ask patients of they want to take the risk of getting the mad cow.  A 65 year old lady lady that needs new kidney, or 35 year old man that needs a new set of lungs, would probably take the risk.

lohphat: Sadly, mandatory motorcycle helmet laws shrink the donor pool.


I think in the not too distant future people will get organs printed up from stem cells which will render this mostly an economic issue.
 
2013-06-13 01:31:08 AM

JPINFV: TemperedEdge: "Controversial" lung surgery? The controversy should be why she - and anyone else for that matter - should be made to wait absurd amounts of time and have to jump through absurd amounts of hoops to get the treatment they need.

Because we can grow lungs in factories now? Scarce resources require rationing, and since we can't magic up organs yet, they tend to be rather scarce.


If people cared about healthcare, they would volunteer one of their lungs.
But no, it is always take someone else's lung or wait until they die.
 
2013-06-13 01:33:25 AM
Sadly there is the business aspect of organ harvesting as well. Ever see a limousine in front of an ER/hospital entrance? Normally its a transplant team. Ever wonder why hospitals don't transfer the patients all to the same hospital for the harvest (which would decrease out of body time on the organs, increasing viability). They instead pay to fly the harvest teams in, pay for ambulances (ground and flight) to transport the organ to and from the airport where they have a private chartered plane fly the organ to the destination city.

Hospitals make bank and tend to want to keep the patient in order to keep the cash flowing in.

/Pretty sure LifeShare in my state helped fund the groups that repealed the state's helmet law for anyone over 18.... They also required increased medical insurance for the motorcyclists.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:07 AM

Worldwalker: Don't be too sure that the people who think this was a bad idea are not organ donors.

I am; like others have mentioned here, I checked that box when I got my first driver's license, and I have made absolutely sure that my parents, spouse, etc., all know of that decision, and that they'd damned well better say "yes" if the docs ask or I'll come back and haunt them. (remember, even if you want to donate your organs, your next of kin can overrule that decision) I find it barely short of obscene that anyone would want organs they're not using any more buried or burned instead of going to people who need them.


meh.  if you really cared, you wouldn't wait until you were dead to donate some organs.  You don't need both lungs or both kidneys.  It is easy to give up something when you no longer need them.
 
2013-06-13 01:35:40 AM
Terry Schiavo, Part II: Electric Boogaloo
 
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