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(Spiegel)   "Dear diary, our school had been bombed when we arrived this morning. Waltraud, Melitta and I went back to Gisela's and danced to gramophone records"   (spiegel.de) divider line 160
    More: Scary, gramophone record, total war, Stalingrad, Buchenwald, social history  
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9167 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2013 at 8:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-12 08:25:30 PM  
You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.

Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris: You want me to admit it was a terrible thing we did to Hamburg? Right. It *was* bloody terrible. It was *ghastly*! Feel better now? Unless you can offer me alternative targets that will win the war quicker, shut up! You return to your conscience, and let me get back to the war. Okay?
 
2013-06-12 08:25:51 PM  
"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." -Ian Kershaw.

indeed.

bears repeating.

no one remembers anyway
 
2013-06-12 08:26:46 PM  
Interesting read
 
2013-06-12 08:27:02 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-12 08:30:07 PM  
"My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

60 years from now they'll say the same of us for something. I can already take a few guesses.
 
2013-06-12 08:32:30 PM  
... and boy, is grams tired.
 
2013-06-12 08:32:39 PM  
Wow, interesting, I hope it's out in English soon.

Quite the counterpoint to two of my favorite books,   I shall bear witness: the diaries of Victor Klemperer, 1933-41 and To the bitter end: the diaries of Victor Klemperer, 1942-1945.

Klemperer was an ethnic Jew (converted to Christianity) who survived the war in Dresden. Literally the day before the last Dresden Jews were to be deported to the camps in 1945, the Allies firebombed Dresden.

Viktor ditched his yellow-starred clothing and he and his wife walked out of the city and blended into the mass of refugees.

/ His cousin was Werner Klemperer AKA Colonel Klink
 
2013-06-12 08:37:41 PM  

rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.


She was six when the Nazis came to power. The Nazis controlled everything she learned in school, everything she read, everything she heard on the radio and every movie she saw.

So yeah, she thought it was normal.
 
2013-06-12 08:40:32 PM  

Omahawg: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." -Ian Kershaw.

indeed.

bears repeating.

no one remembers anyway


Or rather, we're indifferent to it.

It's kinda amazing some people are militantly indifferent and/or apathetic.  They get pissed when it's suggested that that they should care about something or another
 
2013-06-12 08:41:22 PM  
What does anyone expect from teenagers?
 
2013-06-12 08:41:36 PM  
My great-uncle's diary from WWI was hilariously dark humored and nonchalant.

"Today a shell sent the oven through the wall. We had dinner al-fresco" -- as close as I can remember, I read it 25 or so years ago
 
2013-06-12 08:43:03 PM  

rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

60 years from now they'll say the same of us for something. I can already take a few guesses.


Care to elaborate on those guesses?

/My guesses as to what those things will be:
1.) Gay rights (I'm in my mid-20s, I can already see the tide turning)
2.) Africa
3.) The Middle East
4.) Climate change
 
2013-06-12 08:43:11 PM  

Fissile: What does anyone expect from teenagers?


perky breasts
 
2013-06-12 08:43:13 PM  

jaytkay: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

She was six when the Nazis came to power. The Nazis controlled everything she learned in school, everything she read, everything she heard on the radio and every movie she saw.

So yeah, she thought it was normal.


Teens around the time of WWII could be sheltered, lied too, and indoctrinated easier than teens today.  Media was far easier to control as well so everything did seem normal too her.  A poor child does not realize they are poor if they are surround by nothing but poverty and hear or see nothing of a better life style. Life goes on.
 
2013-06-12 08:45:24 PM  

uber humper: Fissile: What does anyone expect from teenagers?

perky breasts


============

Yes, go on.
 
2013-06-12 08:45:30 PM  
The little boy's gleeful reaction when his new school is bombed: "Thanks Adolf."

t2.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-12 08:46:07 PM  

jaytkay: Wow, interesting, I hope it's out in English soon.

Quite the counterpoint to two of my favorite books,   I shall bear witness: the diaries of Victor Klemperer, 1933-41 and To the bitter end: the diaries of Victor Klemperer, 1942-1945.

Klemperer was an ethnic Jew (converted to Christianity) who survived the war in Dresden. Literally the day before the last Dresden Jews were to be deported to the camps in 1945, the Allies firebombed Dresden.

Viktor ditched his yellow-starred clothing and he and his wife walked out of the city and blended into the mass of refugees.

/ His cousin was Werner Klemperer AKA Colonel Klink


I was about to make a Colonel Klink joke from seeing Klemperer until I saw your slash. Awesome post.
 
2013-06-12 08:48:30 PM  
This diary should be named:  Don't Worry, Be Happy!
 
2013-06-12 08:48:30 PM  

hershy799: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

60 years from now they'll say the same of us for something. I can already take a few guesses.

Care to elaborate on those guesses?

/My guesses as to what those things will be:
1.) Gay rights (I'm in my mid-20s, I can already see the tide turning)
2.) Africa
3.) The Middle East
4.) Climate change


Foxconn and other labor abuses in the manufacturing of our stuff.
 
2013-06-12 08:48:53 PM  
Good to know that teenagers back then were the same self-absorbed asshats that we're all familiar with in today's society. Nothing much has changed.
 
2013-06-12 08:57:40 PM  

Xythero: hershy799: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

60 years from now they'll say the same of us for something. I can already take a few guesses.

Care to elaborate on those guesses?

/My guesses as to what those things will be:
1.) Gay rights (I'm in my mid-20s, I can already see the tide turning)
2.) Africa
3.) The Middle East
4.) Climate change

Foxconn and other labor abuses in the manufacturing of our stuff.


On the whole, we've never really cared much about laborers before.  Since, well, ever.   Do you expect that to change?

I mean, I can imagine Chinese people saying in 60 years "Why did we work so hard for such low wages?"

But "Why are workers treated poorly?"  Because they are workers!
 
2013-06-12 08:57:51 PM  

jaytkay: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

She was six when the Nazis came to power. The Nazis controlled everything she learned in school, everything she read, everything she heard on the radio and every movie she saw.

So yeah, she thought it was normal.


There were people raised in apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow southern US who thought the daily outrages in those areas were normal. Not for nothing did Hannah Arendt coin the phrase "banality of evil" in her work on Adolf Eichmann. The Nazis, though, I'm sure they knew they were morally wrong and hadn't won the hearts and minds of all Germans. They couched their language in euphamisms: special measures, special actions, liquidation, the final solution - anything to avoid words like kill or murder.
 
2013-06-12 09:00:39 PM  

Omahawg: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." -Ian Kershaw.

indeed.

bears repeating.

no one remembers anyway


It's such an absurdly gross oversimplification. Far more than indifference, I'd argue ignorance, prejudice, patriotism/loyalty, and/or impotence are what lie behind most large populations not stopping atrocities and injustice perpetuated by their leaders.
 
2013-06-12 09:01:16 PM  

thisispete: he Nazis, though, I'm sure they knew they were morally wrong and hadn't won the hearts and minds of all Germans. They couched their language in euphamisms: special measures, special actions, liquidation, the final solution - anything to avoid words like kill or murder.


Oh, all governments do that.  We call conducting war "spreading freedom," and giving corporations blank checks in our political process "free speech," for example.
 
2013-06-12 09:03:13 PM  

CowardlyLion: Omahawg: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." -Ian Kershaw.

indeed.

bears repeating.

no one remembers anyway

It's such an absurdly gross oversimplification. Far more than indifference, I'd argue ignorance, prejudice, patriotism/loyalty, and/or impotence are what lie behind most large populations not stopping atrocities and injustice perpetuated by their leaders.


I think the idea is that the indifferent allow the ignorant, prejudiced, etc. people to act.
 
2013-06-12 09:03:33 PM  

CowardlyLion: Omahawg: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." -Ian Kershaw.

indeed.

bears repeating.

no one remembers anyway

It's such an absurdly gross oversimplification. Far more than indifference, I'd argue ignorance, prejudice, patriotism/loyalty, and/or impotence are what lie behind most large populations not stopping atrocities and injustice perpetuated by their leaders.


yup. something anyway
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-12 09:13:59 PM  
So her diary was her version of Twitter or Facebook. When something major happens nowadays, I'm not surprised anymore at reading some of the most stupid comments on either of those sights.
 
2013-06-12 09:15:03 PM  

hardinparamedic: You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.

Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris: You want me to admit it was a terrible thing we did to Hamburg? Right. It *was* bloody terrible. It was *ghastly*! Feel better now? Unless you can offer me alternative targets that will win the war quicker, shut up! You return to your conscience, and let me get back to the war. Okay?


A bunch of German teenagers were capable of systematically and industrially murdering over 20 million people?  Pretty impressive if you compare that to today's teenagers who can do nothing but shop, complain, be "emo" and waste time on the internet.

/Good thing we bombed their schools and basements before even worse could happen.
 
2013-06-12 09:15:49 PM  
My Dad was hard core old South to the end...However he bore no prejudice...He hated everyone equally.
 
2013-06-12 09:16:46 PM  
I read very little of the article.  I am a decedent of a woman who was a young girl growing up in Germany from 1933 towards 1961.  I have bits and pieces of her life then.  She was just in 1st grade when Hitler came to power; I have her school picture with her holding some sort of German-style gift as she started school.  When she she grew older, she was sent to work the fields as good Germans do.  When she was a teenager, she was given a rifle to guard the Russian soldiers.  When it came towards the end, she and neighbors scavenged fields for food.  That's all I know.
 
2013-06-12 09:16:47 PM  

Fissile: uber humper: Fissile: What does anyone expect from teenagers?

perky breasts

============

Yes, go on.


i276.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-12 09:21:44 PM  

jaytkay: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

She was six when the Nazis came to power. The Nazis controlled everything she learned in school, everything she read, everything she heard on the radio and every movie she saw.

So yeah, she thought it was normal.


Exactly. She was indoctrinated into a believing what her government was doing was normal. As were the children in the Young Pioneers in the former USSR, the Red Guards under Chairman Mao, or for that matter, children growing up in North Korea. Even it literature, such as "1984" children were taught to revere Big Brother and as Junior Spies were not only encouraged to report others for what was considered deviances from the "norm", but were called heroes for turning their own parents in to the Thought Police.
 
2013-06-12 09:22:19 PM  
And then later we all got raped by the Red Army
 
2013-06-12 09:28:04 PM  

zerkalo: And then later we all got raped by the Red Army


Halts mal! Her son doesn't know about that part.
 
2013-06-12 09:30:02 PM  

zerkalo: And then later we all got raped by the Red Army


I've never asked my grandma if that happened to her.  Would you?  Get back to me, dickhead.
 
2013-06-12 09:31:08 PM  

hardinparamedic


You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.

This ^ Done in one.
 
2013-06-12 09:31:09 PM  
Can anyone recommend a good book on the topic of the psychology of the German people before and during WW2?
 
2013-06-12 09:31:34 PM  
None of this would have happened if they wouldn't have annexed that country with the kangaroos in the first place.
 
2013-06-12 09:33:39 PM  
Mom was a teenager in occupied Belgium. There was a semblance of normal life--you hung out with friends, you went to school. Sometimes you hid in the basement when the bombs were falling. The United States bombed the fark out of the elementary school where her little brother went. Apparently it looked a lot like the airplane-part factory they were targeting. They laid the bodies out in the playground so the parents could come and identify their children.
 
2013-06-12 09:35:14 PM  
hershy799

/My guesses as to what those things will be:
1.) Gay rights

Yes, saying people may not marry members of the same gender is exactly like rounding them up, beating them, confiscating their property and murdering every farking member of their family.

Go stick your head in an oven.
 
2013-06-12 09:37:09 PM  

OnlyM3: hardinparamedic


You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.
This ^ Done in one.


Go fark yourself.
 
2013-06-12 09:40:15 PM  

revrendjim: Mom was a teenager in occupied Belgium. There was a semblance of normal life--you hung out with friends, you went to school. Sometimes you hid in the basement when the bombs were falling. The United States bombed the fark out of the elementary school where her little brother went. Apparently it looked a lot like the airplane-part factory they were targeting. They laid the bodies out in the playground so the parents could come and identify their children.


Thank you for the alternate view.
 
2013-06-12 09:40:39 PM  

jaytkay: rockforever: "My son always said to me: How could you have been so oblivious?" she says. "I never saw a thing!"

You saw plenty, you just thought it was normal.

She was six when the Nazis came to power. The Nazis controlled everything she learned in school, everything she read, everything she heard on the radio and every movie she saw.

So yeah, she thought it was normal.


This. The hate wasn't any different than what we teach our own kids about "bad people".

And the indifference - well, lets not only focus on Germany's internal indifference. Other nations were pretty damn indifferent about it too, right up until they got their ass kicked by the Blitzkreig. Funny how people start to care about inhumanity when the bullets start to fly.
 
2013-06-12 09:40:54 PM  

OnlyM3: hardinparamedic


You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.
This ^ Done in one.


I think you may be confusing the population with their government.
It's a simple mistake - I'm not judging
 
2013-06-12 09:41:41 PM  
To those who carried it out the Holocaust was just another job.

For Eichman and Heydrich, who planned the whole thing, it was just another board meeting.
 
2013-06-12 09:42:56 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: Can anyone recommend a good book on the topic of the psychology of the German people before and during WW2?


The Viktor Klemperer books I mentioned upthread. You get an on-the-ground view of how the Nazis turned the country into a Hell.

Links:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/255161.I_Will_Bear_Witness

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/190572.I_Will_Bear_Witness
 
2013-06-12 09:44:37 PM  
 You know who else wrote a diary and didn't see anything?

/Hey Adolf, what did you do to get down here?
 
2013-06-12 09:49:12 PM  

Tillmaster: I think you may be confusing the population with their government.
It's a simple mistake - I'm not judging


I think you underestimate the extent by which the population was compliant and complacent with the holocaust. They knew what was happening, and turned a blind eye.

Especially those who worked in wartime industry.
 
2013-06-12 09:52:42 PM  

Mister Pleco: revrendjim: Mom was a teenager in occupied Belgium. There was a semblance of normal life--you hung out with friends, you went to school. Sometimes you hid in the basement when the bombs were falling. The United States bombed the fark out of the elementary school where her little brother went. Apparently it looked a lot like the airplane-part factory they were targeting. They laid the bodies out in the playground so the parents could come and identify their children.

Thank you for the alternate view.


Just pointing out that war hurts a lot of people who have nothing to do with the politics.
 
2013-06-12 09:53:22 PM  
Tillmaster
2013-06-12 09:40:54 PM


OnlyM3: hardinparamedic


You know, it's really hard for me to drum up sympathy for the people who systematically and industrially murdered over 20 Million People.
This ^ Done in one.

I think you may be confusing the population with their government.
It's a simple mistake - I'm not judging

With all respect........ bullshiat.

1) He was elected
2) "We didn't know" is a lie no matter how often it is told. Not saying you are lying.. just probably repeating what you were told. The newspapers bragged about clearing "dirty jews" out, property was auctioned off, and "good germans" *spits* were happy to turn in Jews.

... there were no secrets.

Mister Pleco
Go fark yourself.
Go sieg heil elsewhere. Your parents/grandparents knew exactly what was going on and more than likely directly helped.
 
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