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(NewsBusters)   Liberal writer: Having mens and womens restrooms is just as bad the the Jim Crow segregated restrooms. Because keeping pervy men from watching women peeing is just a bad a racism   (newsbusters.org) divider line 191
    More: Dumbass, Jim Crow, New Republic, racial segregations, peeing, Adam Winkler, Mac Pro, racists, UCLA School of Law  
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1381 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2013 at 9:08 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-13 04:16:31 AM

austerity101: Also, your preferences and inconveniences are noted, but all transgender people want is  to be treated like the gender that they are, and I think that their desires are bit more profound than "men are gross and I don't want to share a bathroom with them."


For clarification, is that the gender that they are biologically, or the one they are in their minds?
 
2013-06-13 04:25:30 AM

alienated: i am not going to read the thread, but, submitter, even if  you are a "friend" of mine- I wish you nothing less than the full time of the rest of your life in a pain amplifier. Also known as my shoes. And the min that approved this headline. I used to like this website,  but thanks for nothing, Drew- you found a way to make a cool place just a hangout for trolls. Too bad- you *had* something nice , mate.
Thanks for catering to the lowest common denominator of user. Idiot .


That you are upset comes through. The specifics of why you are upset do not.

I don't think that benefits anyone, either you, FARK modmins, people that would try to support transgender people, or people that you think are currently trolls and/or various sorts of haters.

Right now for many people, the biology, the psychology, the science is very unclear. It's not anything they were taught in school, and seemingly extraordinary for Western culture. And yet, I do think (speaking like someone from Star Fleet asking Q not to destroy us yet) that we have gone pretty far.

I dunno, you might benefit yourself and the rest of us by engaging rather than just telling everyone off.
 
2013-06-13 04:36:40 AM

FirstNationalBastard: wotthefark: Jim_Callahan: ColdFusion: ///dudes, seriously wash your hands, if you learned the shiat we did in that class, you'd be scared your dick would fall off if you shook the wrong guy's hand.

To be fair, urinating for a man doesn't actually usually involve coming into contact with anything dirtier or more contaminated than the flush handle, so for men it's more about a general obligation to occasionally wash the last few hours' accumulated dirt and so on off rather than an actual worry about contamination.  Situation's a bit different for women most of the time.

//Short of having a surface-contact STD, I guess.
//Again, good habit to wash occasionally in general.  With non-antibacterial soap, if you use antibacterial you're actually making the problem worse instead of better overall.
//Yes, "all soap is antibacterial", antibacterial soap refers specifically to triclosan-doped or other imbued-drug soaps using chemicals that suppress bacterial reproduction rather than just, y'know, killing them or sweeping them off their host surface.

So women have this "daily wash: for their hoo-haa

[www.justotc.com image 196x196]

Apparently some pH balanced soap doesn't change your lady flora so as to not start baking bread or something.

Why do men not have dick soap? Or asshole soap for that matter because I know  the ladies are washing their assholes with that as well.

You would need a scent that still kept with a tain't, chode smell yet sensitive to the ladies.

[www.ecorazzi.com image 403x230]

Nailed It.

The Gos-wash for the Gonads.

Any bottle of soap can be dick soap, as long as the opening of the bottle is large enough to stick your dick in.


You can wash your minge in any type of soap,

Someone already stole my idea anyway.

2.bp.blogspot.com

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-13 04:50:35 AM

alienated: i am not going to read the thread, but, submitter, even if  you are a "friend" of mine- I wish you nothing less than the full time of the rest of your life in a pain amplifier. Also known as my shoes. And the min that approved this headline. I used to like this website,  but thanks for nothing, Drew- you found a way to make a cool place just a hangout for trolls. Too bad- you *had* something nice , mate.
Thanks for catering to the lowest common denominator of user. Idiot .


There's a lot of sand in your pretend vagina.

You're certainly as dramatic as a real girl.
 
2013-06-13 05:05:13 AM

alienated: i am not going to read the thread, but, submitter, even if  you are a "friend" of mine- I wish you nothing less than the full time of the rest of your life in a pain amplifier. Also known as my shoes. And the min that approved this headline. I used to like this website,  but thanks for nothing, Drew- you found a way to make a cool place just a hangout for trolls. Too bad- you *had* something nice , mate.
Thanks for catering to the lowest common denominator of user. Idiot .


Trigger word in the headline? Drew, his staff and the community don't owe you anything. Melodrama that ends in tragedy is still melodrama. Your troubles are your own.
 
2013-06-13 06:48:37 AM
i.imgur.com

/ has also never had oral sex
 
2013-06-13 06:48:37 AM
Because keeping pervy men from watching women peeing is just a bad a racism

Ah, yes, the old "all men needed to be treated as criminals simply for being men" argument. Because there are no variations to this that could possibly make your argument even more retardedly stupid.
 
2013-06-13 06:53:14 AM
Men's and women's rest rooms doesn't really concern me much, especially when we still have Jim Crow institutions around like the sphinx organization.
 
2013-06-13 06:55:23 AM

Lsherm: I have shy bladder so I am all for requiring every bathroom to be a single individual room with one toilet.  Plus, that way you can really relax when you need some reading time.


No, because if there's just one toilet in the room, your shy bladder siezes up every time someone knocks on the door to see if someone's in there. Just make sure all the stalls have doors with latches, and you should be good.

/I also have a shy bladder
//hate hate hate when someone knocks on a bathroom door
///have to start all over again
 
2013-06-13 07:07:45 AM

austerity101: Also, your preferences and inconveniences are noted, but all transgender people want is  to be treated like the gender that they are


I have a big issue with this right here.  You might not realize how sexist you sound(and may be without realizing it).  The question is not why we would/wouldn't treat a person differently before/after "gender re-assignment," but rather WHY SHOULD we treat them different in the first place?  If you treat a man any different than you treat a woman, that is inherently sexist.

Such sexism is pretty well established in our culture, but that does not mean you should accept it.  Many transgenders are really only asking for a different flavor of sexist behavior.  That is the wrong battle to fight and really only sets us back.  They should fight to end sexual discrimination instead.  Stop asking people to treat you like a man or a woman and start asking them to treat you like A PERSON.

That said, I really am not a big fan of gender re-assignment surgery in the same way I am not a fan of breast implants, nose jobs, etc.  I see it as a unhealthy rejection of our natural form.  We should all learn to accept and love ourselves as we are instead of as some other artificial version of ourselves.

The way I see it, the reason I think people start feeling the need for gender re-assignment falls under 1 or both of the following reasons

1.  Society conditioned (sexist) views of gender roles.  None of these are natural nor inherent based upon a person's gender.  Reality is anyone can do anything and anyone can have any preferences.  There is no "default" based off your gender.  So having "masculine" preferences does not make one a male.  Neither does having "femanine" tendencies make one a female.  Gender roles need to properly go the way of the caveman.

2.  Sexual guilt.  Despite higher acceptance than (probably) any other time in history, homosexuality is still looked down upon and stigmatized.  Once a person hears the same thing too many times, somewhere in their mind they start to feel that there is some truth to what they hear - even despite their logical part of their mind telling them otherwise.  The kind of things they hear will have a negative effect on them (and their self-image), even when they should know better and it will probably (sadly) always stick with them.

But if "I'm really a man, then being attracted to women actually means I'm straight."  It is something your mind does subconsciously to justify something that you really shouldn't feel guilty about in the first place (yet do).  Self-justification mode is ALWAYS active in the mind.  It is a powerful subconscious mechanism that actively does shape our conscious thought processes.  And that is probably why someone "feels" like a certain gender - when really a gender doesn't "feel" like anything and should not mean a damn thing!

So I think if people can come to accept and love themselves as they are - and if you can get society to drop all the judgements (I guess I won't be holding my breath) - gender re-assignment becomes less necessary.

Except I suppose at the point where medical science can perform true gender re-assignment, that could allow same sex couples to procreate together.  Although at that point they would cease to be a "same sex" couple.  Yet  it could only be called natural that - if they love each other - then they may want to create and raise a child together.  We can't do that yet, but someday we will.

_______________________________

hardinparamedic : In the real world, chromosomes determine what haploid cells you produce. They do not determine gender.

That is funny of you to say, since gender really boils down to NOTHING but which haploid cells you produce.  Generally yes males have a penis/testicles/prostate while women have the uterus/vagina/ovaries/breasts and all that.  Medical science can't really change that quite yet.  Or I should say they can't make you produce the version or haploid cells you prefer quite yet.  Some day real gender re-assignment will be here, but we aren't there yet.

That said, I see absolutely no reason to treat a person differently because they "changed" genders.  Why should you treat a particular person a certain way because of their gender at all?  I would see any such sexist discrimination end... if it where my choice alone.
 
2013-06-13 07:11:06 AM
Let's get this straight (no pun intended). The person in question is not a girl. He is a boy. Despite Winkler's insistence on using "she" and "her" to refer to Nicole Maines, the fact is that "Nicole" is a boy who "identifies as" - read, pretends to be - a girl. No matter how you slice it, the truth remains that he is a boy.

Well, it is good to know that the author of TFA is willing to so openly state the problem here. I'll admit that, as a left-leaning moderate, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the whole 'self-identifying' as the opposite sex from your biological sex, but that doesn't mean that I am going to pretend that it doesn't exist.
 
2013-06-13 07:19:15 AM

theknuckler_33: Let's get this straight (no pun intended). The person in question is not a girl. He is a boy. Despite Winkler's insistence on using "she" and "her" to refer to Nicole Maines, the fact is that "Nicole" is a boy who "identifies as" - read, pretends to be - a girl. No matter how you slice it, the truth remains that he is a boy.

Well, it is good to know that the author of TFA is willing to so openly state the problem here. I'll admit that, as a left-leaning moderate, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the whole 'self-identifying' as the opposite sex from your biological sex, but that doesn't mean that I am going to pretend that it doesn't exist.


And it doesn't necessarily imply that there aren't doors in the bathrooms, or that he/she's a sexual predator, so like... who cares?
 
2013-06-13 07:23:54 AM

PillsHere: I've had to go into the men's room before at a job (my boss made me change the air purifiers when they ran out) and all I can say is no - just no. The smell was ungodly bad and there never seemed to be soap in there.


No offense, but perhaps the reason there was no soap in there is because you didn't replace it. The USA is not a byo soap country when it comes to public restroom, usually...
 
2013-06-13 07:24:17 AM

FirstNationalBastard: So, I'm guessing elevated glass toilets with an observation window underneath are asking for too much?


haha  I love the idea.  But I have that kinda fetish so I am all about joining the restrooms.  I'm sure some people don't want to know about that and would use me as an argument against unisex restrooms.  But how is that so different than today?  You don't think that there are some people of your own gender who might be homosexual and have that fetish too?  They exist.  Heck I do know of some heterosexual women who still have told me they enjoy watching other women poop so I guess the homosexual angle is moot.

Really just put up FULL stall doors and you don't have a problem of perverts - assuming that you care so very much what a person sees.  I am not into men at all, yet I don't exactly care if men see me naked any more than I would care that a woman did - that is to say not at all.  Oh noes they saw my "shame!"

Plus if you are so worried about people like me, what about people with foot fetishes?  On noes they can see your feet from under the stalls!  Or you could get over it.  Just putting that out there.

It is really silly to be so embarrassed about doing something that EVERY FARKING HUMAN ON THIS PLANET does.  Every animal for that matter, not just humans.  It is a basic biological need so why the hell are you ashamed?  Really now...  Probably because our foolish Judeo-Christian society has conditioned you as such.

Putting aside any perverted motivations, I support the idea of the unified aka non-discriminatory bathrooms because I do not support treating people different based off their gender any more than a reasonable person supports treating people different based off of their race etc.
 
2013-06-13 07:31:53 AM

alienated: i am not going to read the thread, but, submitter, even if  you are a "friend" of mine- I wish you nothing less than the full time of the rest of your life in a pain amplifier. Also known as my shoes. And the min that approved this headline. I used to like this website,  but thanks for nothing, Drew- you found a way to make a cool place just a hangout for trolls. Too bad- you *had* something nice , mate.
Thanks for catering to the lowest common denominator of user. Idiot .


I recall you from previous threads.  In your case I think the doctors should have been more concerned with giving you a skin transplant rather than a new shiny set of genitals.  Your skin is so thin that I expect your liver is getting a tan as we speak.
 
2013-06-13 07:35:21 AM
How dare you deny women the right to complain about pervy men trying to watch them pee!
 
2013-06-13 07:36:28 AM

Heraclitus: How dare you deny women the right to complain about pervy men trying to watch them pee!


*sigh* Goddammit nobody is watching anybody pee.
 
2013-06-13 07:40:23 AM

LasersHurt: Heraclitus: How dare you deny women the right to complain about pervy men trying to watch them pee!

*sigh* Goddammit nobody is watching anybody pee.


Then what are all those men doing standing at the urinals?
 
2013-06-13 07:41:54 AM

ArcadianRefugee: Because keeping pervy men from watching women peeing is just a bad a racism

Ah, yes, the old "all men needed to be treated as criminals simply for being men" argument. Because there are no variations to this that could possibly make your argument even more retardedly stupid.


No, no, in context of TFA, it means that transgender men are pervs.

So, not all men, just the queer ones.
 
2013-06-13 07:42:21 AM

theknuckler_33: LasersHurt: Heraclitus: How dare you deny women the right to complain about pervy men trying to watch them pee!

*sigh* Goddammit nobody is watching anybody pee.

Then what are all those men doing standing at the urinals?


Staring at the grout on the wall in front of them, or learning or reaffirming the names of Plumbing Fixture manufacturers. Not looking at each OTHER I assure you.
 
2013-06-13 07:53:20 AM
Transgender issues aside, bathrooms should be unisex.

Cost: it's cheaper to build one bathroom rather than two.
Cleanliness: In my experience, any space where the genders are segregated is messier than where people have to share. I'm not sure of the underlying principle here, but monosex dorms where always a mess compared to co-ed.
Efficiency: When there are separate bathrooms, one can develop a line when there are perfectly good toilets available.
Decency: If we can't trust one another to not try and watch eachother pee, why bother having a civilization at all? Let the small minority of pervs with no internet connection try and sneak a peek. They'll be caught.

Can anyone thing of a good reason for separate bathrooms?
 
2013-06-13 08:03:24 AM

OgreMagi: austerity101: OgreMagi: While I am not ready to accept that someone was "born the wrong gender", I do accept that they believe it.  However, to demand parents accept someone as female and intermingle with girls in a restroom despite having a penis is asking too much.  No, I don't really have a solution, other than as someone else suggested of using the staff restroom.

I'm not entirely sure why your, or the parents', opinions on the medical legitimacy of transgender people are in any way relevant here.  Maine has laws that protect people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity and expression; therefore, to say that it's asking too much is incorrect, as the state has already decided that it's in fact  not too much to ask.

A parents opinion matters because a boy in the girls restroom is normally considered an issue.  How that person views themselves doesn't matter when the physical reality trumps them.


I would just like to point out again, that it was the grandparents of a male student who filed a complaint, so by your standard there was no problem with this girl using the girls room.
 
2013-06-13 08:04:51 AM

LasersHurt: theknuckler_33: LasersHurt: Heraclitus: How dare you deny women the right to complain about pervy men trying to watch them pee!

*sigh* Goddammit nobody is watching anybody pee.

Then what are all those men doing standing at the urinals?

Staring at the grout on the wall in front of them, or learning or reaffirming the names of Plumbing Fixture manufacturers. Not looking at each OTHER I assure you.


I was joking around, but I was referring to the fact that you often see men standing at urinals in public bathrooms. Yes, you aren't watching the flow emerge from their peen, but you certainly are 'watching them pee'. Or at least seeing or witnessing them pee (just to differentiate from 'watching' as in 'staring' to eliminate the creepiness factor).
 
2013-06-13 08:20:48 AM
OK; this time I've really got it. We can still handle all of these cases with only two rooms, if we just redefine how they work. Instead of "men's" and "women's" rooms, we have the Rape Room (which anyone may use) and the Safe Space (which people who are not straight cisgendered males have the option to use).

Does this work? Do I have all the concerns mapped out this time?
 
2013-06-13 08:21:20 AM

austerity101: OgreMagi: While I am not ready to accept that someone was "born the wrong gender", I do accept that they believe it.  However, to demand parents accept someone as female and intermingle with girls in a restroom despite having a penis is asking too much.  No, I don't really have a solution, other than as someone else suggested of using the staff restroom.

I'm not entirely sure why your, or the parents', opinions on the medical legitimacy of transgender people are in any way relevant here.  Maine has laws that protect people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity and expression; therefore, to say that it's asking too much is incorrect, as the state has already decided that it's in fact  not too much to ask.


And in what female restrooms does everyone sit out in the open and go to the bathroom?  Most public restrooms I am aware of have private stalls.  Again, I am with you on the whole changing/shower room situation, but, honestly, if someone was dressed up well enough of the opposite sex, unless you knew them personally, would you even know when they came and used your bathroom?
 
2013-06-13 08:30:11 AM
I was just having this discussion last night with some female friends. I love public unisex bathrooms, because they're so much better tended than men's bathrooms. If they could get away with it, most men's rooms in businesses would consist of a light switch and a hole. The prospect of women using the bathroom insures that there will be a supply of toilet paper, soap, running water, et al.
 
2013-06-13 09:18:10 AM

bk3k: That is funny of you to say, since gender really boils down to NOTHING but which haploid cells you produce.  Generally yes males have a penis/testicles/prostate while women have the uterus/vagina/ovaries/breasts and all that.  Medical science can't really change that quite yet.  Or I should say they can't make you produce the version or haploid cells you prefer quite yet.  Some day real gender re-assignment will be here, but we aren't there yet.


Except it doesn't, and your gross oversimplification of gender based on reproductive capacity is completely and utterly wrong.
 
2013-06-13 09:19:00 AM
Uh, wow. Okay TVTRopes.

The above URL should be this.
 
2013-06-13 09:20:05 AM
assets.rollingstone.com
"What? What did I do?  Should I have not done that?"
 
2013-06-13 09:30:13 AM
Assuming men are pervs who will harass women is just as bad as assuming a dark skinned person is stupid or going to rob you.  I could care less about bathrooms but as a single father I'm tired of getting looked at like a perv if I even glance at a kid while I'm at the park with my daughter.

/maybe I should wear pants next time I go to the park
 
2013-06-13 10:19:31 AM
So we have separate bathrooms to keep pervy men from watching women pee, what is keeping pervy gay men from watching other men pee?

Seems to me we should have 5 bathrooms everywhere so no one gets perved on.
 
2013-06-13 11:37:56 AM

dinomyar: Seems to me we should have 5 bathrooms everywhere so no one gets perved on.


Too expensive. Better for one bathroom where everyone gets perved on.
 
2013-06-13 12:35:24 PM
In (supposedly) ultra-liberal New York's (supposedly) ultra-liberal Hudson Valley this would never happen.
source: property and business owner there
 
2013-06-13 12:57:03 PM

austerity101: Also, your preferences and inconveniences are noted, but all transgender people want is to be treated like the gender that they are, and I think that their desires are bit more profound than "men are gross and I don't want to share a bathroom with them." Your issues just end up sounding petty compared to theirs.


Pretty much.
 
2013-06-13 02:16:49 PM

Biological Ali: austerity101: Also, your preferences and inconveniences are noted, but all transgender people want is to be treated like the gender that they are, and I think that their desires are bit more profound than "men are gross and I don't want to share a bathroom with them." Your issues just end up sounding petty compared to theirs.

Pretty much.


In almost all social situations, I agree.

When 99% of the people though expect to be openly naked in a room with only people of their own sex (not gender)... sorry, penises in one room, vagina's in the other.   If you are saying "that isn't fair", then, fine, but, we have to get to a "Starship Troopers Shower Scene" society then where everyone is obviously "cool" with unisex public showers.
 
2013-06-13 02:34:03 PM
I don't care if chicks wanna see me "Slatering" in there.
 
2013-06-13 02:35:39 PM

hardinparamedic: bk3k: That is funny of you to say, since gender really boils down to NOTHING but which haploid cells you produce.  Generally yes males have a penis/testicles/prostate while women have the uterus/vagina/ovaries/breasts and all that.  Medical science can't really change that quite yet.  Or I should say they can't make you produce the version or haploid cells you prefer quite yet.  Some day real gender re-assignment will be here, but we aren't there yet.

Except it doesn't, and your gross oversimplification of gender based on reproductive capacity is completely and utterly wrong.


LOL at your first link attempt.  But your second link tells us nothing new and does not change my opinion.  MRI scans have already shown that the brain of homosexual (not talking bisexual) males is wired much the same as the brain of a standard straight woman.  This does completely refute the idea that sexuality is a choice.  I'm not sure that it has been verified, but I expect a lesbian's scan would likewise show her much the same as a standard straight male.  So the idea that a transgender's scan would show the same thing is not surprising to me.

Consider that, and re-read what I posted(what I wrote right above where i quoted you).  See how that fits together?  I believe my theory accurately describes observations of the transsexual nature.  However you could change my mind with just a bit of scientific research.  If the brains are scanned with a large sampling size of the following control groups -

1.  Homosexual males who do not identify as transgender
Probably because our foolish society has conditioned you as such.
2.  Transgender people born as male after surgery and hormone replacement
3.  Transgender people born as male with hormone replacement but no surgery
4.  Transgender people born as male but no hormone replacement nor surgery yet
5.  Heterosexual women

So I would like to see a comparison of the them so that we may know if their is any significant wiring differences.  I would pay especially close attention to the "lizard area" of our brain since the most your interfacing of body/brain occurs there.

That said, I don't think the scans are going to show substantial difference between a transgender (born male) and a homosexual male.  There likely could be more difference(but probably not much) in the brains of transgendered individuals who have long been on hormone replacement therapy but that is speculation.  I also suspect that in those who have actually had the operation, you will see differences in the "lizard brain."

But I also hope that they could give the participants a detailed questionnaire of their life experiences.  I believe their may be differences in the ways their family and society have treated them.

All homosexuals are subject to hate, discrimination, scorn, etc.  But not all homosexuals receive this in equal measure.  The same is true for the amount of support, acceptance, and love they receive.  I suspect that the questionnaires would reveal in most transgendered people that they have had it especially hard.

One of the reasons I do not expect the scan will reveal much difference, is that while they report they believe the body they are born with "doesn't feel" like their bodies - well the brain really doesn't seem to work that way.  The brain is very adaptive and will incorporate any "hardware" that is plugged into it.  Something you where born with... how could it feel any other way?

Anything we hold will with only a little practice become "part of us."  Be that a steering wheel, a game controller, or the very keyboard I am using now.  I mean they have cameras developed that actually feels electric stimuli through the tongue (by directly shocking the tongue in a few hundred locations) to help blind people achieve some degree of vision.  The brain can't instantly process this but it actually picks it up quick despite the fact that this stimulus is not revived across the optic nerve.

Despite the fact that evolution could not have possibly lead the brain to process taste sensory inputs as vision - it works.  The brain adapts.  So I find it very difficult indeed to believe that there is a real physical cause to people feeling that a part of their body really isn't their body."  But you could change my mind.  An experiment done as I have described could put the matter to rest forever.  I would accept the results no matter if they fit what I currently believe or not.  Would you?

That said, I want to make something 100% clear.  I have no hatred nor ill-will towards the transgendered.  I believe they do lead lives harder than what most of us have.  But I do not believe the cause of being transgender is the same as what they may believe.  That does not make me a bad person.  I just believe my theory is more logical and thus more likely.  I do believe in science.  So if science can conclusively tell me I am wrong, that is OK.  I have no emotional attachment to my views as many do.
 
2013-06-13 02:37:58 PM
^^^^^^^^^^
damnit Fark threw a piece of text where it did not belong and I did not catch it.  Please ignore the following line

"Probably because our foolish society has conditioned you as such. "
 
2013-06-13 03:45:31 PM

ZeroCorpse: Why do we insist on having big rooms with toilets all close to each other, with nothing between them but tiny stalls


Won't somebody think of the gloryholes?
 
2013-06-13 05:56:46 PM

revrendjim: I have been to concerts. Women use the men's room because the line is shorter. What's the problem?


Happened to me in Japan...had to take a piss while drinking at a bar and a couple of European broads walked right past while I had my wanker out at the urinal, saying something like "don't mind us, there is a line in the women's room."
 
2013-06-14 07:28:59 AM

thamike: if you outlaw watching women pee, only outlaws will watch women pee.


The only way to stop a man from watching a woman pee in the bathroom, is another man watching HIM pee in the bathroom.
 
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