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(Telegraph)   Embrace your inner sociopath for a better life for all. Well, no. But for you, sure   (blogs.telegraph.co.uk) divider line 129
    More: Scary, Patrick Bateman, Make It, silent majority, sociopaths  
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10487 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2013 at 3:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-12 06:52:25 PM  

Walter Paisley: punkhippie: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

In response to this and freewill above ("Girl ain't right" story): I don't think you can tell with teenagers. They're going through so much shiat, and going through it so farking poorly, that you can't make any judgements about what their real character is like.

In my case, the sociopathic behavior would have been from my childhood up through my mid 20's. While I don't think I'm incapable of empathy now, I do wonder if I have an abnormal sense of it. It seems a little hard to explain, but it's more of a concern for the well-being of others from an intellectual rather than an emotional level. I sometimes wonder if I'm a sociopath who's just trying not to be one.


There's plenty of other personality disorders and such. And again, ALL psychological problems are things people experience on a smaller/lesser scale. It's also possible to have episodes of various psychatric problems that resolve naturally and do not reoccur.

Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.
 
2013-06-12 06:53:22 PM  

freewill: shortymac: -Or an Authoritarian Asshat who was always right no matter what

Funny you should bring that up.

My friend was naive to marry him at 20. He was totally controlled by his family, and expected his children to be totally controlled by him. For the most part, he got what he wanted. When it came time to end the marriage (middle aged, looked around, figured his life sucked and it must be because he was married, got divorced, life still sucked), New York lacking no-fault divorce and "turning the house into a living hell" being a time-tested strategy, he basically took the reins off the daughter and started rewarding her for being horrible to her mother, hugging her and praising the daughter for cursing at her, hitting her, etc. The police were called several times. Told her she didn't have to pass classes, didn't have to come home at night, didn't have to get a job, in order to make her mother the "bad" parent.

I now have some reason to believe that the father has somehow convinced his adult son to turn over a portion of his paycheck to him in order to keep him from moving out, as well, and his son lives in abject terror of his father knowing that he has any kind of relationship with his mother, even looking over his shoulder nervously when they run into each other in public.

My friend only found out recently that once she was driven out of the house, he actually couldn't handle his daughter on his own and had her committed. In spite of that, she completely blames her mother for "abandoning her" while insisting that her father was "there for her" because he didn't make her get a job and lets her live there rent-free at 30, once she realized her last boyfriend wasn't going to give her a free house. (On the other hand, there is some reason to believe that the father has actually been disclosing her whereabouts to her ex, in order to give him opportunities to basically stalk her in order to seek reconciliation and thereby get her back out of the house.) She has ...


Called it, sadly.

Son needs to leave the fark house and just leave, there are poisonous people in this world and the best you can do is cut them out of your life.

The most farked up people I have ever met either have parents:

-Just like them
-Abusive Authoritarians
-Completely checked out, no interest in kid at all. Kid is fed and clothed and that's it, no guidance.
 
2013-06-12 07:00:59 PM  
Sociopaths can be really fun to hang out with.....until they begin their pattern of manipulation.
 
2013-06-12 07:02:20 PM  

JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


I like your answer :)
 
2013-06-12 07:05:07 PM  
My experience with a sociopath is very limited, but his psychologist once scared the bejeebers out of me.  She was filling out an assessment on him, and casually mentioned that there is an ongoing discussion among therapists as to the efficacy of treatment.  "Are we really helping repair the damage, or teaching a better level of disguise?  Are we healing him or creating Ted Bundy 2.0" was her line of comments.

What's in it for me is his first and only thought about every situation.  His level of compliance with behaviors and norms is based on his perceived level of reward.  There is no future, all compensation is due in full right now, or no compliance.  By the same token, all consequences have to be immediate as well.

I understand his line of reasoning, but I have boundaries that I adhere to.  I may want to cut you off in traffic because fark you, but I don't because I'm rarely in that great a rush to get somewhere.  He will do it because fark you, even if he ends up in a wreck.  The idea that his actions may not work in his favor doesn't even cross his mind.
 
2013-06-12 07:08:48 PM  
Just what the world needs: more justification for anti-social behavior.
 
2013-06-12 07:19:55 PM  

shortymac: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

One of the reasons why I think everyone is born with these tendencies and we learn to curb them.

My completely herb-based theory is that sociopathic behaviors are a sort of "survival mode" of our pysche, sort of like the "monkey sphere" (Humans can only handle like 100-odd social connections at a time). We can engage in this pathos of behavior temporarily to escape bad situations, like say war, famine, etc.


That's an interesting take on the subject, almost like an atavistic assholery that one can tap into in fight-or-flight situations.

Lady Indica: Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.


I was consciously aware of my behavior and even celebrating it in my late teens and early 20's (I'm a former LaVeyan Satanist) but it really didn't occur to me that I was a toxic person even in my closer relationships until a romantic relationship ended and an ex told me that I was the kind of guy that was good for an exciting fling but not for a long term relationship. That criticism started some introspection that eventually grew into a full paradigm shift and I went from being a briefly charming nowhere man to some kind of nutter, but at least I'm more at peace with myself now.
 
2013-06-12 07:28:24 PM  
Sociopaths are going to be the aspies.

And it's going to be hilarious.
 
2013-06-12 07:46:44 PM  

optional: Sociopaths are going to be the aspies.

And it's going to be hilarious.


Sadly yes.

There's a lot of mental diseases that start out as only for extreme cases but end up getting "diluted" as time goes on because there are people who engage in similar behavior, but not to the extreme.

Sometimes the "milder" side of the disease is spinned off into a new disease.
 
2013-06-12 08:09:01 PM  

Walter Paisley: shortymac: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

One of the reasons why I think everyone is born with these tendencies and we learn to curb them.

My completely herb-based theory is that sociopathic behaviors are a sort of "survival mode" of our pysche, sort of like the "monkey sphere" (Humans can only handle like 100-odd social connections at a time). We can engage in this pathos of behavior temporarily to escape bad situations, like say war, famine, etc.

That's an interesting take on the subject, almost like an atavistic assholery that one can tap into in fight-or-flight situations.

Lady Indica: Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.

I was consciously aware of my behavior and even celebrating it in my late teens and early 20's (I'm a former LaVeyan Satanist) but it really didn't occur to me that I was a toxic person even in my closer relationships until a romantic relationship ended and an ex told me that I was the kind of guy that was good for an exciting fling but not for a long term relationship. That criticism started some introspection that eventually grew into a full paradigm shift and I went from being a briefly charming nowhere man to some kind of nutter, but at least ...


You have already done the biggest step, introspection. The vast majority of people never do that.

I highly suggest meditation and a objective review of your life with that. Start looking in early childhood, was your home life chaotic? Where your parents emotionally/verbally abusive? Did you always feel like an outcast from everyone else?

Please note that this isn't to play the blame game, this is only to help figure out where and why this pattern of behavior began. Once you know that, it's much easier to put a stop to it. You are ripping out the roots.

You are going to have to take a cold hard look at your actions and it ain't going to be pretty, you are going to feel like shiat for a while, but that's part of the feeling process. Each bruise is a lesson.

I highly recommend learning about the major philosophers and being as objective as possible.

Please pick up the book by Erich Fromm called "Escape from Freedom", it's a real eye opener. I also like Joseph Campbell's work on myths and symbols, I find it helps untangle my subconscious.

You'll never be completely "cured" or "done", life is all about growth, this is a constant process.
 
2013-06-12 08:47:02 PM  
shiat like this is what happens when you stop calling things "good" or "evil".

Seriously, it's a form of moral laziness.  Too many of us refuse to make the effort to declare something as "evil", because doing so obligates us to do something about it.  So sociopaths aren't evil bastards who should be locked up, they become mental illnesses that should be treated, and then "morally different" from the rest of us and their ethical diversity a thing to be celebrated.
 
2013-06-12 08:48:02 PM  
Society itself acts like a sociopath.    Society is terrified of sociopaths simply because they cannot be manipulated with shame and approval.
 
2013-06-12 09:21:49 PM  
So, CEO's and the like then?
 
2013-06-12 10:35:55 PM  

Nick Nostril: So, CEO's and the like then?


Often. Yes. Though there are people who can by necessity compartmentalize. Sort of like the 'I'm only an asshole online' sort of things. No/little empathy in some situations, tremendously empathy for their own. It's what allows humans to do the whole 'us and them' thing, and war and shiat. Turkey's genocide of Armenia. Holocaust of Jews, Roma, and other minority groups by the Reich. Tusi in Africa.

Giants v. Yankees.

=\
 
2013-06-12 10:39:07 PM  

Mouser: shiat like this is what happens when you stop calling things "good" or "evil".

Seriously, it's a form of moral laziness.  Too many of us refuse to make the effort to declare something as "evil", because doing so obligates us to do something about it.  So sociopaths aren't evil bastards who should be locked up, they become mental illnesses that should be treated, and then "morally different" from the rest of us and their ethical diversity a thing to be celebrated.


Wrong. They are NOT evil bastards. Their actions however may make them evil, or not. We may agree that it's easier for some people to be an evil bastard when they have no internal pain system to regulate...but one might argue that makes them even more moral when they act as such.

Just as I have no belief in god/s or an afterlife. When we die, as far as I know, we're dead. That's it. GAME OVER.

That does not mean that I'm an evil bastard because I'm not afraid of the pain system of most afterlifes most ppl seem to believe in. What I DO determines that. Who I am determines that.

/soulless ginger
 
2013-06-12 10:44:30 PM  
A college student accidentally came up with a brilliant way to expose sociopaths:
• He was studying box turtles.
• He wanted to see how they fared crossing the road.
• He put one on the shoulder of a road, out of the drive lane.

Results:
Six percent of drivers swerved to crush the turtle. Others tried and missed.
• A professor asked his class of 110 how many had intentionally swerved to crush turtles. 34 people raised their hands.

Ten to thirty percent would intentionally crush turtles. I think the drivers are a more random sample of the population. What does it say that 34 percent of the college students had done it? They are a more narrowly selected population.
 
2013-06-12 11:03:39 PM  

Lady Indica: Just as I have no belief in god/s or an afterlife. When we die, as far as I know, we're dead. That's it. GAME OVER.


I've seen people mention this. That at death, the consciousness dissipates, and eventually so does the body, returning to its component particles, atoms, molecules and the rest.

However, the other half of that equation is ignored - that the universe organized itself into you in the first place. First it organized itself into swirling balls of gas and dust which became galaxies and stars. Then the sun, the planets, including earth. Then the oceans, early life, plants, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, sloths, tigers, lemurs and humans. Everything you see. And then you.

It is a common mistake that man makes, throughout history, to think of himself and his machinations as being somehow above or separate from the natural world. No. He is a product of it. His brain is a product of it. His technology is a product of it, as surely as a bird's nest, a beaver's dam or a wasp's nest is.

How does the non-sentient become sentient? I have no idea, maybe it can make the jump. Perhaps there is something else pervading the universe. We can only detect five percent of it.

What is the universe up to I wonder? I'm intrigued by the first half the equation, where it organizes from the underlying fabric, as well in addition to the second part, where it dissipates back into the fabric.
 
2013-06-12 11:09:50 PM  
Re: my previous comment:

"But at that moment, I realized that something deeply hidden had to lie behind things." -- Albert Einstein.
 
2013-06-12 11:17:38 PM  
Article written by a young, pre-Weyland-Yutani Carter Burke. He's certainly an authority on the subject.

blogs.telegraph.co.uka4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-06-12 11:26:55 PM  

JungleBoogie: Results:
• Six percent of drivers swerved to crush the turtle. Others tried and missed.
• A professor asked his class of 110 how many had intentionally swerved to crush turtles. 34 people raised their hands.

Ten to thirty percent would intentionally crush turtles. I think the drivers are a more random sample of the population. What does it say that 34 percent of the college students had done it? They are a more narrowly selected population.


If it's a psych class, what it says is that there's some truth to the popular notion that people who already know they are farked up take psych classes in order to attempt to self-diagnose.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:07 AM  

shortymac: gglibertine: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?

Have you seen some of the shiat kids do and say to one another? How mercilessly they'll tease and beat up the "weird" kid?

Did you see what those kids did to that old bus monitor lady?

The vast majority of living people go not give a shiat about the world around them except for societal expectations and their comfort.

Remember, we're all just hairless apes.


That's funny; personally, there's times when I can't watch violent movies because I can't stomach it. I'll watch someone in a war movie catch a round to the shoulder and my shoulder will actually hurt, if the sound and visual effects are well-done.

Someone above mentioned that sociopaths only feel for those they see as an extension of themselves; I am human. I look at another person and recognize them as human. Therefore, as a member of my same species they are an extension of myself. I guess I'm on the opposite end of the empathy scale...

Yes, when it's a group versus one or fewer in number who are different, it can get very ugly. It's a chance for the group to act out against that which they reject in themselves. If we hate another, it's usually because we see something in them that we resent in ourselves... and the group that's greater in number is (in that context) obviously superior to the group that is smaller in number; majority rule is something that seems to be hard-coded into us.

I say all of the above as a grown up "weird kid".

None of those kids who picked on the odd one out, or the kids that did whatever to the bus driver feels personally responsible, not even the one that swung first; they'd blame it on everyone else egging them on.

I think we all feel for one another as individuals, but as soon as it's one group versus a smaller group, or an individual trying to make their way as the new person in an established group, things can get very ugly very quickly.

Of course, you have sociopaths and on the opposite end of the scale, people like me who seem to feel way too much for others skewing the average...
 
2013-06-13 02:23:20 AM  

JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

[www.blastr.com image 538x555]


You win the thread.

 Seriously, I think there are fewer true sociopaths than people think. A true sociopath has no ability to feel empathy or place value on others AT ALL. Many painted with the ugly brush of sociopathy by the  undiscerning masses can actually feel quite a bit of empathy and do place value on most all people, but are also lucky enough to have developed the capacity to chose to place none whatsoever on others.
 They aren't sociopaths per se, just a bit more selective in who they hold up as being a valid human. Connoisseurs so to speak.
 
2013-06-13 04:07:34 AM  

UrukHaiGuyz: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

A jerk?


Depends.
www.qwipster.net
How do you feel about cans?
 
2013-06-13 04:13:43 AM  

Honest Bender: Could a sociopath pass a voit kampff test?


Is this testing whether I'm a sociopath or a lesbian, Mr. Bender?
 
2013-06-13 04:27:41 AM  

Cookbook's Anarchist: xanadian: FTFA: 1. Claim there are a lot more people like this than you previously thought. Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated, but it succeeds in giving the impression that being a psycho is no stranger than having dyslexia or a bad knee.

I used to be a normal person, like you, but then a sociopath put an arrow in my knee.

Let me guess. Some sociopath stole your sweetroll.


Hail, sociopath.  Conjure me up a warm DSM-V, won't you?
 
2013-06-13 07:00:58 AM  

CliChe Guevara: JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

[www.blastr.com image 538x555]

You win the thread.

 Seriously, I think there are fewer true sociopaths than people think. A true sociopath has no ability to feel empathy or place value on others AT ALL. Many painted with the ugly brush of sociopathy by the  undiscerning masses can actually feel quite a bit of empathy and do place value on most all people, but are also lucky enough to have developed the capacity to chose to place none whatsoever on others.
 They aren't sociopaths per se, just a bit more selective in who they hold up as being a valid human. Connoisseurs so to speak.


We have more accurate numbers because of brain scans. A psychopath's brain looks different under an fMRI. (James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives. He's also descended from a farkton of murderers.) Now, no one is talking about using these findings as diagnostic, let alone anything else...but it's enough to give us an idea of what we're looking at.

And it's about 3% of the population. Or about the same number most studies give for homosexuals, to give you a perspective. Is the actual number higher? Maybe. We dunno. How many of them die or are incarcerated before adulthood and basically from then on are constantly in jail due to their condition (lack of fear, risk taking, criminal activity gone wrong, etc)? We don't know. Are there people who have a brain scan similar to sociopaths, and yet are *not* themselves? Maybe. We don't know.

It's the first time we've even seen the suspected brain differences and can see what regions are actually affected, and how that explains the condition. We know the differences that take place as to why some are violent...and some are not. (Environment plays a huuuuge part. Genetics have to be there, but environment makes the monster).

All these things are the very beginnings of being able to potentially do something about it. Neuroscience is still in it's infancy. I take prozac (as I've mentioned before) for PMDD. It's been hugely beneficial for me in many many ways. The most important to *me* has been a relief from chronic anxiety and clinical depression and suicidal idealation. My overall quality of life is soooo much better. And we're not even sure why SSRIs work. I just saw a study this evening that talked about long term use of SSRIs supressing the learned fear response and that people think that's bad. It farks up amydgala learning. Interesting shiat. I personally think that's why it works so well for some PTSD people, and why it works well for some types of depression. And specifically for me...it makes sense on why it works. Or a portion of why it works. Or...it might turn out to be wrong. Infancy.

But as we learn more of the hows and whys of mental illness, it's no different than any other disease. Heart disease is a disease of both genetics and environment. You can do everything possible, eat right, be in the best shape of your life...and be felled by heart disease. You can have great genetics but be a lazy lump and eat like shiat and weigh 900 lbs and you're likely to croak in your 30s or 40s as a result. It's a combo is the point, and the same is true for mental health diseases. The problem is, we often don't know the environmental risks. And what we do know of the genetic risks is pretty pathetic.

Psychotropic medication for me doesn't change who I am. It merely fixes that farked up internal state which sets me into morbid anxiety over things that do not require that level of care or concern. Not things like worrying about the NSA reading my thoughts (or mail or whatever) but things like 'oh god if I trip and fall and I'm out of work for a few weeks what will I do what will happen aaaaah' or worrying about bills, despite always managing to pay them on time (self employment means no guaranteed check...but if I worked for a company I'd worry about losing my job despite never having been fired by anyone). And that's not getting into some of the other uglier aspects of depression. I'm still ME, but it removes that inappropriate emotionally farked up internal state. That's the only difference for me.

Not so for everyone unfortunately. Bipolar people often struggle with the differences, enjoying the mania aspects (some of them) and of course no one enjoys depression. And medication can really suck. And that's IF you respond to medication. There's plenty of people with clinical depression who respond to *nothing*, and have to resort to EST as a last ditch bandaid to stay alive and semi functional.

And that doesn't even begin to address the many problems we simply can't treat. *sigh*

There's nothing we can do for a sociopath. Sociopaths typically aren't interested in change. They may be interested in why they are the way they are (they have egos like the rest of us after all) but that's usually it. They may express something akin to remorse about the way they are, but you see that typically in the ones incarcerated for serious crimes...and none of them are people who turned themselves in. They may have gotten lazy, chaotic, disorganized...but I can't think of a single sociopath who turned themselves in ever. Why would they? They don't feel remorse. They're NOT sorry. They're the 'I'm sorry I got caught' folks. Or they're sorry that the way they are, or lack of control they had, resulted in consequences they don't like. They're not remorseful. They don't feel bad for what they did.

Would a sociopath want to change? If there was a medication that allowed them to experience empathy...would they want it? Would they continue to take the medicine? I imagine it would be very difficult, and would seem to have little payoff.

Personally I suspect most would try it to see what those experiences they don't have were like. And I think almost none would continue to take it.

But perhaps as neuroscience advances it will be possible to repair some problems when people are kids. Then the argument becomes 'should we'. We live in a world where people argue that deafness is a desired trait, a culture that shouldn't be eradicated with cures or treatment.

Prolly won't happen in my lifetime though.
 
2013-06-13 03:33:55 PM  

Lady Indica: James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives.



I'm trying to find the talk where he claims to be a sociopath. Have a link handy?
 
2013-06-13 09:38:18 PM  

Holographic Shimmering Pork: Lady Indica: James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives.


I'm trying to find the talk where he claims to be a sociopath. Have a link handy?


Found it. Tis here: http://worldsciencefestival.com/videos/moth_confessions_of_a_pro_socia l_psychopath

If that doesn't work for you or your device google 'James Fallon Confessions of a Pro-Social Psychopath' and you'll find it hosted on multiple sites. I strongly recommend watching his TED talk first (on psychopath brain scans) , then that one. Both are fascinating!
 
2013-06-14 02:31:58 AM  

Lady Indica: Would a sociopath want to change? If there was a medication that allowed them to experience empathy...would they want it? Would they continue to take the medicine? I imagine it would be very difficult, and would seem to have little payoff.


In my own experience, there are sociopaths who have consciences and those who don't. You might say sociopaths don't have consciences, but I beg to differ. It's just a different way we think about it. Knowing what is right and wrong in accordance to society, religion, or otherwise is the sociopathic conscience, in abscence of something you can feel, as opposed to being something only in theory.

For me, I felt emotions for the first time after smoking pot on a somewhat consistent basis, after a very hard time dealing with what it did to me. After the adjustment period, it has been the best experience of my life, and if I had a medication that could let me feel that day-to-day, I'd definitely take it. I wouldn't even care for a high.

And take it from me, please. The thoughts and beliefs I once had are the stuff of your worst nightmares, and my own. All it would take is the will, because I could always find the way. I wanted to kill that which I hated, at a deep, true, honest, and primal level. But I always held out some part that said there was a better and more productive way to live my life; that there was a way to live and let live. I found it, and many others can. It's so sad that this way is deemed illegal and frowned upon by mainstream society.
 
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