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(Telegraph)   Embrace your inner sociopath for a better life for all. Well, no. But for you, sure   (blogs.telegraph.co.uk) divider line 129
    More: Scary, Patrick Bateman, Make It, silent majority, sociopaths  
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10488 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2013 at 3:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



129 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-06-12 03:05:55 PM  
I did 28 years ago. i never sit in my basement alone and have a plethora of great friends!
 
2013-06-12 03:08:27 PM  
It may not be good for society, but business runs on sociopathy at the higher levels..
 
2013-06-12 03:09:31 PM  
They tend to frown on you driving across three states wearing a woman's head as a hat
 
2013-06-12 03:10:27 PM  
i have to return some videotapes
 
2013-06-12 03:11:32 PM  
You would not realise that she is studying you to find your flaws, that she is ruthlessly manipulative, has no empathy and does not feel guilt or remorse. But she does like people - she likes to touch them, mould them and ruin them.

mtvhive.mtvnimages.com
 
2013-06-12 03:12:50 PM  
Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.
 
2013-06-12 03:13:30 PM  
Rule 106:  There is no honor in poverty
Rule 113:  Always have sex with the boss
Rule 242:  more is good, all is better
Rule 51: never admit a mistake if there is someone else to blame

/and so on
 
2013-06-12 03:13:53 PM  

Somaticasual: It may not be good for society, but business runs on sociopathy at the higher levels..


And government, and seemingly any group of humans larger than, say, 20.
 
2013-06-12 03:14:34 PM  
 
2013-06-12 03:15:00 PM  

Somaticasual: It may not be good for society, but business runs on sociopathy at the higher levels..


In his book Snakes in Suits, Dr. Hare foresaw the problem that corporations might use the psychopathy checklist he developed to recruit them rather than screen them.
 
2013-06-12 03:16:02 PM  

AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.


I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.
 
2013-06-12 03:17:34 PM  

Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.


Spectrum of sociopathy? Or do you have to have 0 empathy to qualify?
 
2013-06-12 03:17:45 PM  
Really, all that makes them at all interesting IS the fact that not many people know about them and what they are. Once they are well known, they will be less interesting than the average person.
 
2013-06-12 03:17:47 PM  
FTFA:

Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated,

No one really knows the frequency of psychopathy in the population, but 1 in 25 is a pretty standard estimate. There's no reason to believe it's "wildly inflated." One researcher estimated 1 in 3 among the males.
 
2013-06-12 03:18:09 PM  
lucien0maverick.files.wordpress.com

approves.
 
2013-06-12 03:18:33 PM  

Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.


This is true

An asshole will forget a date with you, a sociopath will purposely not go so they can get it on with someone else, then lie about where they were and guilt you into feeling sorry for them.

An asshole won't pay you back money, a sociopath will manipulate you to feel sorry for them so you feel obligated to ask them not to pay back.

I could keep going, but I say this as a confirmed true sociopath.
 
2013-06-12 03:22:06 PM  

AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.


"Psychopath" and "sociopath" are not now and have never been clinical diagnoses. Not in the United States, anyway.

"Psychopath" is more often used in a legal context to determine how the state will treat certain offenders. Some states have, for example, "sexual psychopath" laws which, if an offender meets the statutory definition of it, mandate harsher treatment for them than for other offenders.

I'm not aware of the use of "sociopath" in any legal context.
 
2013-06-12 03:24:03 PM  

Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.


I read your response multiple times and can only conclude that you agree with me.

And possibly don't understand the meaning of disagree.
 
2013-06-12 03:24:40 PM  
 
2013-06-12 03:24:44 PM  
If the author's problem with sociopaths is that they don't recognize an objective moral system, he has a problem with a lot more people than he thinks.  That's a philosophical position that is not all that frightening.
 
2013-06-12 03:27:35 PM  
FTFA: 1. Claim there are a lot more people like this than you previously thought. Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated, but it succeeds in giving the impression that being a psycho is no stranger than having dyslexia or a bad knee.

I used to be a normal person, like you, but then a sociopath put an arrow in my knee.
 
2013-06-12 03:28:59 PM  

bugontherug: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

"Psychopath" and "sociopath" are not now and have never been clinical diagnoses. Not in the United States, anyway.

"Psychopath" is more often used in a legal context to determine how the state will treat certain offenders. Some states have, for example, "sexual psychopath" laws which, if an offender meets the statutory definition of it, mandate harsher treatment for them than for other offenders.

I'm not aware of the use of "sociopath" in any legal context.


It was in DSM IV as Antisocial Personality Disorder.
 
2013-06-12 03:29:28 PM  

IdBeCrazyIf: An asshole will forget a date with you, a sociopath will purposely not go so they can get it on with someone else, then lie about where they were and guilt you into feeling sorry for them.


The most dangerous sociopaths would not go as part of a campaign to lower your self-esteem to make you more easy to manipulate. A campaign enhanced both by an intuitive grasp and studied understanding of human psychology.
 
2013-06-12 03:30:15 PM  
I'd rather not, particularly after reading The Psychpath Test. People who are pathologically manipulative and incapable of empathy are terrifying.
 
2013-06-12 03:30:59 PM  
*psychopath - doh!
 
2013-06-12 03:32:07 PM  

bugontherug: FTFA:

Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated,

No one really knows the frequency of psychopathy in the population, but 1 in 25 is a pretty standard estimate. There's no reason to believe it's "wildly inflated." One researcher estimated 1 in 3 among the males.


Must've been a female researcher for that last estimate. She just got confused because she doesn't have a penis.

/MyPenisIsASociopath would be a great band name/fark handle.
 
2013-06-12 03:33:30 PM  
If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?
 
2013-06-12 03:33:34 PM  

sugarhi: I'd rather not, particularly after reading The Psychpath Test. People who are pathologically manipulative and incapable of empathy are terrifying.


Uh yeah.  I dated a psychopath a couple of years ago.  Didn't really know much about it until the fallout from that, did a little research.  Creepiest damn thing I've ever imagined.  Nasty...
 
2013-06-12 03:35:01 PM  
I don't find anything exotic about sociopaths. About half of the people in prison for violent crime are sociopaths. Alot of them were ADHD in childhood. Despite what the press tells you they tend to have low IQ. Many of them were raised by crappy parents and are in turn crappy parents themselves. They have impulse control and drug abuse problems. Most of them have ruined credit (financial irresponsibility is one of the criteria). The sociopath driving around in a suit and BMW convertible is the exception to the rule.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/184/2/118.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11989987
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22581200
 
2013-06-12 03:36:12 PM  
Lets see what happens when we add meth.
 
2013-06-12 03:36:32 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


A jerk?
 
Ant
2013-06-12 03:39:51 PM  

Hayes: If the author's problem with sociopaths is that they don't recognize an objective moral system, he has a problem with a lot more people than he thinks.  That's a philosophical position that is not all that frightening.


There is a difference in not having an objective moral system, and thinking it's perfectly OK to fark people over to advance your own interests.

I actually believe in a somewhat semi-objective morality, for lack of a better term. I think there exists a set of moral beliefs that are shared across cultures by the vast majority of people, and that these moral instincts are intrinsic to most humans, though many of them reserve their empathy for an extremely small circle of people.

I guess a sociopath would be someone whose empathy circle consisted of only themselves.
 
2013-06-12 03:40:21 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


An asshole

sugarhi: I'd rather not, particularly after reading The Psychpath Test. People who are pathologically manipulative and incapable of empathy are terrifying.


Boo

bugontherug: A campaign enhanced both by an intuitive grasp and studied understanding of human psychology.


I studied the FACE system so I could be a better liar, I'm pretty sure that counts

I mean, I do have empathy I really do. I can really be empathetic to someone elses pain, but usually only when it benefits me in the long term.
 
2013-06-12 03:41:25 PM  

IdBeCrazyIf: They tend to frown on you driving across three states wearing a woman's head as a hat


love your work!!!
 
2013-06-12 03:43:05 PM  

AGremlin: bugontherug: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

"Psychopath" and "sociopath" are not now and have never been clinical diagnoses. Not in the United States, anyway.

"Psychopath" is more often used in a legal context to determine how the state will treat certain offenders. Some states have, for example, "sexual psychopath" laws which, if an offender meets the statutory definition of it, mandate harsher treatment for them than for other offenders.

I'm not aware of the use of "sociopath" in any legal context.

It was in DSM IV as Antisocial Personality Disorder.


Sounds to me like we agree that neither "psychopath" nor "sociopath" are clinical diagnoses.

Antisocial Personality Disorder doesn't comport entirely with the way researchers and others use the terms "psychopath" and "sociopath." Among researches and laypeople alike, for example, most would agree that a sociopath need have no evidence of sociopathy in his childhood background. But evidence of antisocial traits in childhood is a necessary component of an ADP diagnosis. And the other cluster B  disorders exhibit traits people would describe as "sociopathic."
 
2013-06-12 03:46:58 PM  

sugarhi: I'd rather not, particularly after reading The Psychpath Test. People who are pathologically manipulative and incapable of empathy are terrifying.


Agreed; they are incapable of feeling remorse too.  My ex husband is a sociopath - Antisocial Personality Disorder is the current term I think.  Absolutely evil b*stard is my preferred label.

/I'm remarkably well-adjusted after the ordeal....most of the time anyway:)
 
2013-06-12 03:48:05 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


Someone in an open marriage who bangs amateur wrestlers?
 
2013-06-12 03:54:16 PM  
Patrick Bateman wasn't a psychopath. Narcissistic and hedonistic, he was also delusional about all the murder fantasies he never carried out. He actually cared about things.
 
2013-06-12 03:56:38 PM  
I've dated someone that many of the characteristics of a sociopath, but I wouldn't say she was a full on sociopath. She was definitely a narcissist, charming as shiat, and was great at feigning words like she meant them even when her actions were different.

Where she was truly brilliantly evil was when she was effortlessly manipulating other people's emotions to make them feel like they either belonged or were a social outcast; this was done usually to push an agenda, and she had zero shame about it.
 
2013-06-12 03:57:06 PM  
It's kind of nice to be a psychopath, I have so many fewer things to worry about than you people do
 
2013-06-12 04:00:04 PM  
The author referenced in TFA is trying to make a run on sociopathy being the next aspergers or bipolar; a mine of pop-psyc bullshiat to be exploited by telling people what they want to hear to sell books. At least the article author is calling bullshiat on it.

See also: the current trend on "introversion" and "social anxiety" making you a special snowflake as well.
 
2013-06-12 04:08:43 PM  

Apos: [lucien0maverick.files.wordpress.com image 850x478]

approves.


encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com

Approves as well.
 
2013-06-12 04:11:04 PM  

bugontherug: AGremlin: bugontherug: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

"Psychopath" and "sociopath" are not now and have never been clinical diagnoses. Not in the United States, anyway.

"Psychopath" is more often used in a legal context to determine how the state will treat certain offenders. Some states have, for example, "sexual psychopath" laws which, if an offender meets the statutory definition of it, mandate harsher treatment for them than for other offenders.

I'm not aware of the use of "sociopath" in any legal context.

It was in DSM IV as Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Sounds to me like we agree that neither "psychopath" nor "sociopath" are clinical diagnoses.

Antisocial Personality Disorder doesn't comport entirely with the way researchers and others use the terms "psychopath" and "sociopath." Among researches and laypeople alike, for example, most would agree that a sociopath need have no evidence of sociopathy in his childhood background. But evidence of antisocial traits in childhood is a necessary component of an ADP diagnosis. And the other cluster B  disorders exhibit traits people would describe as "sociopathic."


You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R.  The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals.  As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.
 
2013-06-12 04:27:11 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


A regular old asshole.

I recently finally rid myself of a part-time personal assistant who I'm pretty sure is an undiagnosed sociopath, but may also just be an asshole. During the course of her employment, I discovered that she's been diagnosed as bipolar, borderline, and a few other things during the course of years of treatment. She also saw no problem with mentioning cursing at a judge, contaminating an ex-boyfriend's food, stealing his credit card to acquire an adequate birthday present, and, when she learned that someone had stolen $16,000 from a family member, said that since they gave it back when they got caught, it wasn't really stealing.

Her last three boyfriends were convicted felons because she "doesn't see eye to eye" with "good guys", which I interpreted as "non-criminals". At one point, she also indicated that she doesn't understand the idea of looking back on yourself as a teenager and realizing that you made a mistake because you didn't know something that you know now, that she's never felt that way.

She finally made up a face-saving excuse to quit after she went on an extended crying jag in front of me because a parent was trying to "control her" by telling her she needed to start thinking about getting a full-time job, which she described as "being obsessed with money". This, at age 30.

You can hardly imagine how relieved I am to be rid of her and to have all my passwords changed.
 
2013-06-12 04:29:58 PM  
Stopped reading here:
She could not be me because I really don't like touching people and my empathy runs so deep that I only have to think about Bambi and I'm crying

There could be nothing afterwards that wasn't painted with this brush.
 
2013-06-12 04:30:50 PM  
Ayn Rand was definitely a sociopath. So was L Ron Hubbard and Aleistar Crowley.
 
2013-06-12 04:33:14 PM  

wildcardjack: He actually cared about things.


Sociopaths care about things. It's been too long since I've seen the movie (and I never read the book) so you might be right in your assessment of the character...but sociopaths can and do care very much about many things.

Best analogy I've come up with is think about playing Super Mario Bros (or any video game). You don't feel bad for the turtles you're stomping. You don't feel bad for the plants you fireball. You can play games and empathize with NPCs (or any fictional character) but there's plenty of times where we *don't* form that empathy because we realize they're not agents. (They're not a being that has a mind that is capable of experiencing suffering). I've never lost a night's sleep on all the thousands upon thousands of virtual NPCs I've slaughtered. In fact, I find it pleasurable. There's no remorse, and the concept that there would be is almost funny. That's the closest I think a non-sociopath can come to understanding what is a very alien state of mind.

A sociopath has impaired empathy attachment. That doesn't mean they never care about another person, they can and do care very deeply about some people. They simply don't form empathetic attachments. The love they have for others is an extension of self. Family typically, an extension of themselves (which is why they can sometimes be bizarrely abusive to family, not intentionally or with mean intent...but because they don't empathize with them as a separate entity.)

And they like to win. They like control (even the lazy ones who are parasitic, they still exert tremendous control). And they can have very rigid internal rules or codes. I don't mean in a Dexter-y way (never got into the show, am familiar with it tho) but in a code of honor type of way. This again is NOT empathy in any way, shape or form. It has to do with how they seem THEMSELVES. All self driven. An example would be a violent sociopathic male being very proud that he always provided food for his family, and never murdered a woman. He may have beaten his wife terribly. He may have neglected his children emotionally. But within their internal rule context, they have kept to specific rules. And they can feel something close to shame, intense anger and disappointment in self for violating those rules.

They've had to get along with the other monkeys. Their quirks have allowed and continued to allow them to succeed in a variety of areas. Some of these are beneficial to the group, some are not. Whether or not that matters to them varies. You cannot appeal to emotionalism, or a sense of feeling bad though. You cannot use the tools of shame or guilt. And whereas most monkeys have intense feelings, and once that passes...so does the intensity of the anger/hate/fear/etc. that is not typically true of a sociopath. Sure they get the burst of anger at strangers which pass. But they keep score with people they know. Lots of people do this of course, but they're masters of it.

Grants them some advantages and a lot of disadvantages.
 
2013-06-12 04:33:20 PM  

Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.


This. "Sociopath" has to be determined by a psychiatrist or psychologist. People who manipulate and don't care about other people's feelings are not usually psycho/sociopaths. They're just assholes. Not special assholes. Just assholes.
 
2013-06-12 04:35:53 PM  

Ant: Hayes: If the author's problem with sociopaths is that they don't recognize an objective moral system, he has a problem with a lot more people than he thinks.  That's a philosophical position that is not all that frightening.

There is a difference in not having an objective moral system, and thinking it's perfectly OK to fark people over to advance your own interests.


But... what if someone - not me, of course, I hasten to add - thought it was perfectly OK to fark people over not necessarily to advance my their own interests, but purely for the lulz?

/I'm only asking questions here
 
2013-06-12 04:38:02 PM  

AGremlin: Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.

I read your response multiple times and can only conclude that you agree with me.

And possibly don't understand the meaning of disagree.


Your definition is wrong. Nobody labels someone a sociopath because they 'do things you don't like or agree with'.  They think other things of these people. Ass, idiot, etc. but not sociopath.
 
2013-06-12 04:39:31 PM  
Could a sociopath pass a voit kampff test?
 
2013-06-12 04:42:38 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


I read a psychiatrist once, and I can't remember his name, unfortunately, who described what he called the "psychodynamic" model of psychopathy/sociopathy. Of all the reading I've done, I personally liked his approach the best.

Both Hare's checklist and the DSM employ very behaviorist approaches. That is, they're concerned with more with outward actions, and less with internal operations. Hare's and the DSM's approaches care that you've robbed a convenience store. They're less interested in why you robbed the convenience store, and whether or not you felt remorse for it.

There's a lot of merit to that approach, because for a large part it's pretty objective. Either you have a criminal history, or you don't. Either you pay your bills or you don't, etc.

APD does have "lack of remorse" as a diagnostic criteria. But it's only one. So someone who otherwise meets the diagnostic criteria, but experiences real remorse can still be APD. And it treats "rationalizing" and "being indifferent to" harm you've done identically.

In the psychodymanic approach, "indifference" forms the real core of psychopathy. It limits use of the word "psychopath" to those who lack the neural mechanisms for empathy and conscience. Someone who rationalizes wrongdoing does so because he has an emotional need to. That need comes from something conscience-like in him.

Three candidates for a psychopathy diagnosis rob a gas station.

The first robs it because he wants to buy a new PS4. He doesn't care if it hurt anyone.

The second robs it because he's addicted to drugs and out of cash to buy them. He tells himself that the gas station is owned by rich people who won't really be hurt.

The third guy is a Jew living in Nazi Germany. He robs the gas station to get money to smuggle his family to safety. He regrets hurting the owners, but his fear for his and his family's safety drives him to do it anyway.

Behaviorism treats all three of these guys' bank robberies identically. But clearly, different personality structures motivate each of them.

Does the third guy really have anything psychologically in common with the other two? Once he's safely in the United States, is there any reason to believe he's a danger to society at all?

The junky's body tells him he needs a fix. His addiction overpowers his sense of right and wrong. How do we know he has a sense of right and wrong? Because he has to make up an excuse to justify to himself why robbing the place is okay. We might be able to reform this guy if we can break his addictive behavior patterns, and get him to see through his smokescreen of rationalizations.

The third guy isn't driven by any overpowering need. He's just greedy. And he doesn't have to justify his actions to himself at all. Can someone who doesn't care at all about right and wrong ever safely interact with society?

But the psychodynamic approach is much harder to apply than the behaviorist approaches. To have any hope of applying it accurately requires a very thorough knowledge of someone's personality and background. It may take years of examination for a clinician to determine whether a candidate for diagnosis has a real conscience, or is just faking one. Even then, the best trained professional with the best background knowledge can still be fooled sometimes.

So for most purposes, we stick to the behaviorist models. Which is probably for the best, as long as we recognize their limitations.
 
2013-06-12 04:44:56 PM  
No no no no no.

Look, think of it like clinical depression. We all get depressed, sad, etc. but that is a light shade of grey to the clinical depression's black.

We're all a little [insert personality disorder here]. That's why anyone taking Psych 101 suddenly starts armchairing everyone, including themselves. You can see the *shades* of everything in almost everyone.

Sociopaths do not feel the emotion called 'remorse' period. They can feel a very vague shade of it when related to themselves or something they've attached as extension of self (family).

All the rest of humanity has done something to someone not a close friend or family member that was flat out hurtful or wrong, and we feel really super shiatty about after the fact internally. Not because of how we're perceived by others. Not because of the impact to us. But because we experience empathy.

There's other characteristics, but all of them can be extended to things we normally do. We all tend to think of ourselves as smarter than we are, it's a very human illusion. All of us can be a wee bit egotistical. Blah de blah blah blah. A sociopath keeps going down the checklist on the extreme end of it.

Again, difference between feeling a little blue today, and depression.

Hope that helps.

/not a sociopath, though like all people sometimes wishes
 
2013-06-12 04:47:08 PM  

Honest Bender: Could a sociopath pass a voit kampff test?


Could you?
www.technovelgy.com
Re-reading this right now. At the first test Decker gave....he really wants that owl.
 
2013-06-12 04:48:30 PM  
I called this one a couple of months ago, but I can't find the post now. Color me utterly unsurprised.
 
2013-06-12 04:51:12 PM  

studs up: Honest Bender: Could a sociopath pass a voit kampff test?

Could you?
[www.technovelgy.com image 400x283]
Re-reading this right now. At the first test Decker gave....he really wants that owl.


Deckard dammit
 
2013-06-12 04:52:53 PM  

Decillion: AGremlin: Decillion: AGremlin: Sociopath is thrown around so much today it has virtually lost all meaning.  It used to be and should be a clinical diagnosis.

Definition is now: People who do things you don't like or agree with.

I disagree. It's given out too easily but still attached to people with no regard for anyone else. However these are mostly assholes. Not actual sociopaths.

I read your response multiple times and can only conclude that you agree with me.

And possibly don't understand the meaning of disagree.

Your definition is wrong. Nobody labels someone a sociopath because they 'do things you don't like or agree with'.  They think other things of these people. Ass, idiot, etc. but not sociopath.


You don't read too many FARK threads, do you?  I see sociopath thrown around by many "pop psychologists" in these threads.

My point is people use the term wrong all the time.  They equate asshole with sociopath on a regular basis.  As someone further up-thread said, it is something that can only be diagnosed by a mental health professional, whether the new term Antisocial Personality Disorder or the old term sociopath is used.

Boy, it's getting really hard to agree with you.
 
2013-06-12 04:58:38 PM  

freewill: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

A regular old asshole.

I recently finally rid myself of a part-time personal assistant who I'm pretty sure is an undiagnosed sociopath, but may also just be an asshole. During the course of her employment, I discovered that she's been diagnosed as bipolar, borderline, and a few other things during the course of years of treatment. She also saw no problem with mentioning cursing at a judge, contaminating an ex-boyfriend's food, stealing his credit card to acquire an adequate birthday present, and, when she learned that someone had stolen $16,000 from a family member, said that since they gave it back when they got caught, it wasn't really stealing.

Her last three boyfriends were convicted felons because she "doesn't see eye to eye" with "good guys", which I interpreted as "non-criminals". At one point, she also indicated that she doesn't understand the idea of looking back on yourself as a teenager and realizing that you made a mistake because you didn't know something that you know now, that she's never felt that way.

She finally made up a face-saving excuse to quit after she went on an extended crying jag in front of me because a parent was trying to "control her" by telling her she needed to start thinking about getting a full-time job, which she described as "being obsessed with money". This, at age 30.

You can hardly imagine how relieved I am to be rid of her and to have all my passwords changed.


Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.
 
2013-06-12 05:01:11 PM  

Lady Indica: No no no no no.

Look, think of it like clinical depression. We all get depressed, sad, etc. but that is a light shade of grey to the clinical depression's black.

We're all a little [insert personality disorder here]. That's why anyone taking Psych 101 suddenly starts armchairing everyone, including themselves. You can see the *shades* of everything in almost everyone.

Sociopaths do not feel the emotion called 'remorse' period. They can feel a very vague shade of it when related to themselves or something they've attached as extension of self (family).

All the rest of humanity has done something to someone not a close friend or family member that was flat out hurtful or wrong, and we feel really super shiatty about after the fact internally. Not because of how we're perceived by others. Not because of the impact to us. But because we experience empathy.

There's other characteristics, but all of them can be extended to things we normally do. We all tend to think of ourselves as smarter than we are, it's a very human illusion. All of us can be a wee bit egotistical. Blah de blah blah blah. A sociopath keeps going down the checklist on the extreme end of it.

Again, difference between feeling a little blue today, and depression.

Hope that helps.

/not a sociopath, though like all people sometimes wishes


^Very much this.

Apart from the bit about sometimes wishing to be a sociopath:)
 
2013-06-12 05:03:00 PM  

gglibertine: I called this one a couple of months ago, but I can't find the post now. Color me utterly unsurprised.


You predicted someone would link an article about sociopaths? I am whelmed.
 
2013-06-12 05:03:12 PM  

shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.


People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?
 
2013-06-12 05:04:39 PM  

AGremlin: You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R. The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals. As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.


I didn't "imply" it. I stated it outright. And my point was that you were wrong. If what you've said is true, then it looks like I was wrong. If so, then "oops."

I've found one or two non-authoritative citations supporting your claim. I can't find an online copy of the DSM III-r to verify it though.
 
2013-06-12 05:07:44 PM  

bugontherug: AGremlin: You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R. The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals. As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.

I didn't "imply" it. I stated it outright. And my point was that you were wrong. If what you've said is true, then it looks like I was wrong. If so, then "oops."

I've found one or two non-authoritative citations supporting your claim. I can't find an online copy of the DSM III-r to verify it though.


I think it was too, but I'm going on memory. Not that it matters, it was also misused by many professionals too.
 
2013-06-12 05:11:09 PM  
Had a sociopathic boss for a few years. Sucked, but once I had him pegged he knew well enough to pick on other people.

My guess is that there are a lot of sociopathic middle managers. Their disorder helps them claw up to that first level of power, but keeps them from rising much higher. Their 24/7 assholery probably tends to get them in enough minor scrapes that they get passed over for promotions.
 
2013-06-12 05:11:18 PM  
My view of morality is instrumental. I abide by conventional dictates when it suits me, and otherwise, I follow my own course with little need for justification.

biatch is chaotic evil.
 
2013-06-12 05:11:53 PM  

bugontherug: AGremlin: You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R. The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals. As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.

I didn't "imply" it. I stated it outright. And my point was that you were wrong. If what you've said is true, then it looks like I was wrong. If so, then "oops."

I've found one or two non-authoritative citations supporting your claim. I can't find an online copy of the DSM III-r to verify it though.


If I find my old copy, I'll scan it and post.

I was trying to be nice....but yes you stated an incorrect fact without research.  Oops indeed.
 
2013-06-12 05:19:50 PM  

punkhippie: Had a sociopathic boss for a few years. Sucked, but once I had him pegged he knew well enough to pick on other people.

My guess is that there are a lot of sociopathic middle managers. Their disorder helps them claw up to that first level of power, but keeps them from rising much higher. Their 24/7 assholery probably tends to get them in enough minor scrapes that they get passed over for promotions.


Some of them open up their own companies and do very well...for themselves. You can usually tell if the company has a high turn over rate regardless of incentives (compensation). The dumb part is, they could make a lot more money if they weren't sociopaths and kept the talent. Less work and more money but less fuggin' with peoples lives. Guess which one they pick?
 
2013-06-12 05:20:35 PM  

gglibertine: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?


Have you seen some of the shiat kids do and say to one another? How mercilessly they'll tease and beat up the "weird" kid?

Did you see what those kids did to that old bus monitor lady?

The vast majority of living people go not give a shiat about the world around them except for societal expectations and their comfort.

Remember, we're all just hairless apes.
 
2013-06-12 05:24:08 PM  
Yeah. Sociopath =\= psychopath article writer. Thank you for not clearing that up.

Could still do without either of them just fine.
 
2013-06-12 05:25:02 PM  
Lady Indica:

For those of us still trying to figure out whether we are on some spectrum of sociopathy or just not as nice/social as society wants us to be, your post is intriguing.  However, the extent of your insight into the sociopathic mind belies your assertion that they are alien to you, meaning you can't be as nice/normal as you imagine yourself to be.

You cannot use the tools of shame or guilt.

You point out that these critters may feel something like shame when disappointed at having violated their own personal code.  Why then could you not use that phenomenon to manipulate them?  Wait ...
 
2013-06-12 05:31:32 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


Normal? I hope.

//I'm the same.
 
2013-06-12 05:31:52 PM  
shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

I hired her as a favor to a friend to try to get her on her feet. We're only now figuring out the context for some of the things that happened with her in the path, and I would love to think that this can be "untaught", but even at 16, there was reluctance to give her a driver's license because when she was warned that she nearly ran over a group of people, she said something like "if they don't get out of the way, that's their problem". I do believe she might have been enabled throughout childhood, but I also think there's something deeper that's wrong with her.

I think that she quit not because she is embarrassed by the breakdown, but because she realized that I couldn't be manipulated by her crying (she appeared to capable of turning the tears on and off as the subject changed) and because I insisted that her parent (my friend) is being entirely reasonable and reminded her that I knew some of the things she was saying to be factually untrue, giving her enough breathing room to avoid an argument by framing it as a misunderstanding rather than a lie on her part. Now *we* clearly don't "see eye to eye" either, so she can't be around me anymore. Anyone who she can't manipulate is cast aside with remarkable speed, and she has expressed a general hatred for "people", as near as I can tell, because most people react badly to the way she acts.

We're only now figuring out just how damaged she is. Unfortunately, she doesn't want help or view her situation as a problem. She has no real work history, no education, and seems to be systematically manipulating her therapists with elaborate stories which utterly renounce any form of culpability for her own situation. Based on some things she said during her crying fit, she seems to interpret getting through life by manipulating a few bucks out of the poor slobs she can con into taking her in as victory over all the terrible people who expect her to do things that inconvenience her and want her to have a better life.

Girl ain't right.
 
2013-06-12 05:35:19 PM  

shortymac: gglibertine: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?

Have you seen some of the shiat kids do and say to one another? How mercilessly they'll tease and beat up the "weird" kid?

Did you see what those kids did to that old bus monitor lady?

The vast majority of living people go not give a shiat about the world around them except for societal expectations and their comfort.

Remember, we're all just hairless apes.


Like apes, we're highly social animals. The bad behavior you're talking about isn't sociopathic. Those are pretty typical group-building exercises.

A sociopath might play along in these group behaviors but has no need of them except as cover. The sociopath is the who more or less secretly looks down on the group from within.
 
2013-06-12 05:37:41 PM  

AGremlin: bugontherug: AGremlin: You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R. The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals. As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.

I didn't "imply" it. I stated it outright. And my point was that you were wrong. If what you've said is true, then it looks like I was wrong. If so, then "oops."

I've found one or two non-authoritative citations supporting your claim. I can't find an online copy of the DSM III-r to verify it though.

If I find my old copy, I'll scan it and post.

I was trying to be nice....but yes you stated an incorrect fact without research.  Oops indeed.


Not until you prove it. And logging on as an alt to support your claim with someone claiming a "vague memory" doesn't count. You still haven't even provided a citation to any source claiming the diagnosis of "sociopath" existed in the DSM III-R.

Now, here is a link to some DSM III-R pages. The top one is a list of accepted DSM III-R codes. I've examined all 9 pages of them. They do not contain a diagnosis of "sociopath." They do, however, contain diagnoses of APD, NPD, and and BPD--the very same diagnostic criteria as exist in the DSM-IV.

It would be quite a surprise if they changed the diagnosis of "sociopath" to APD, an already existing disorder, as you claim.

I do believe you're wrong, and I'm right. I stand by my proposition, now supported by citation.
 I stated you were wrong based on lots of research done before today. And the best evidence before us supports me, not you.


So, let's see that scan of yours.
 
2013-06-12 05:39:23 PM  
I've been scorched by Krusty before. I got a rapid heartbeat from his Krusty brand vitamins, my Krusty Kalculator didn't have a seven or an eight, and Krusty's autobiography was self-serving with many glaring omissions. But this time, he's gone too far! -- Bart, ``Kamp Krusty''

Sociopathy may have some survival value in chaotic, violent times and places, so it is probably preserved at low levels by the interplay of various forces, evolutionary, biological, social, political, economic, etc.

Societies have always been used by and have used sociopaths, particularly in military and poltiical situations where a normally constituted person would be hesitant or ineffective.

But society is ultimately built on trust and trustworthiness. Conservatives have their own system of trust--where who you are matters more than mere competence and in-groups and out-groups are more sharply defined. Liberals tend towards a more open system where more lose and abstract rules are more important and are thus more liable to trust out-groups more and embrace rather than exclude variety and diversity of various forms.

But where you are hawk or dove, grudge-holder or forgiver, aggressive or passive, sociopaths violate the very fundamental basis of trust--they can not be trusted--they have no internalized societal or innate evolved compassion, empathy, or sympathy for any other person, not even their closest kin and allies.

No liberal really sympathizes with this sort of amoral ruthlessness, nor does any conservative. The sociopath is pathetic, which is to say sick, from the Greek pathos, disease. Even if you have no absolutist or fixed system of moral values, the sociopath simply has no moral values or even pity or fellow-feeling.

The true sociopath enjoys harming others and has no reason to refrain from harming others. They can be socialized (learn the rules, play by the rules as long as they please or as long as necessary) but in the end, there is something totally missing.

It's not a problem that should be framed in terms of "ethics" or "morality., not a problem that can be framed in terms of "lack of guilt or remorse". A totally ethically person could in principle be remorseless, as remorseless and guilt free as a saint or angel doing God's will so that does not distinguish an angel from a devil. A totally gentle and kindly person can live without remorse or guilt and do good.

But a sociopath can do good, talk a good game, look as innocent as a flower, and be the serpent under it.

There's no check and balance there at all, however, and they can do heinous evil, talk pure lies, and be worse than any poisonous think the next moment.

This sociopath's memoirs are just as full of glaring omission and self-service as the memoirs of that other sociopath-tending person, Krusty the Klown.

She writes:

My view of morality is instrumental. I abide by conventional dictates when it suits me, and otherwise, I follow my own course with little need for justification.

Precisely. When it suits her, she can be nice or "moral". When it doesn't, she can do things that would make a great sinner blush and a devil flee. There is no system of checks, except convenience and her own pleasure. She might not chew your head off if she doesn't like the taste, or she is afraid of breaking a tooth.

The fact that ethics and morality have many grey areas does not mean that they are invalid attempts, any more than the vagueness and contradictions of scientific positions mean that Science is Bunkum. It's not the same thing to be immoral and to be amoral. An immoral or moral man might kill you for the wrong reason, or despite knowing that he shouldn't, but a machine will kill you without thought, feeling, or reason. It will kill you because you are there. And so will a sociopath.

Her arguments are designed to mislead you and to rationalize her disease. And to some extent, so are the author's arguments regarding the acceptability of this disease.

The author of this article is apparently a conservative in that he is blaming liberals for something that is not peculiar to liberals and which is not solely the fault of liberals (conservatives are just as easily manipulated by sociopaths, which is why so many sociopaths are posing as conservatives--it's fun and easy to mislead conservatives because they are creatures who fear the Other). And his five point plan for normalizing sociopathy (and homosexuality, allegedly) is exactly the same rhetorical progress used by religious and political conservatives to normalize their beliefs.

1. 1.5 billion Muslims can't be wrong!
2. If I'm wrong about the existence of God, no harm done, but if you're wrong about the non-existence of God, you're going to my Roman Catholic God's Hell, guy. So why not join the winning team (Pascal's Wager).
3. I'm a fanatic and a racist bigot am I? You liberals are the real fanatics and racist bigot!
4. All the cool kids are Scientologists! Don't you really want to be a scientologist, too? Here's Tarintino, Chef from South Park, and our trained dwarf to convince you!
5. Join us, Father! It's bliss!

Because I am a liberal I chose not to pick on one religion in particular, and I don't need to, because they ALL do this, ALL political parties do this, we all do this a little but not necessary a lot because we're not very rational and logical a species of monkey. The missing link between apes and rational humanity is yet to be born.

I've been scorched by more than one type of Krusty the Klown before. I read about half of Richard M. Nixon's voluminous autobiography and I believe implicitly that Krusty the Klown's autobiography was either modeled on it or simply is an autobiography, and that they are all apologia pro vita sua in the same way, which is to say that all autobiographies are works of fiction and belong in the fiction section of bookstores.
 
2013-06-12 05:40:28 PM  

freewill: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

I hired her as a favor to a friend to try to get her on her feet. We're only now figuring out the context for some of the things that happened with her in the path, and I would love to think that this can be "untaught", but even at 16, there was reluctance to give her a driver's license because when she was warned that she nearly ran over a group of people, she said something like "if they don't get out of the way, that's their problem". I do believe she might have been enabled throughout childhood, but I also think there's something deeper that's wrong with her.

I think that she quit not because she is embarrassed by the breakdown, but because she realized that I couldn't be manipulated by her crying (she appeared to capable of turning the tears on and off as the subject changed) and because I insisted that her parent (my friend) is being entirely reasonable and reminded her that I knew some of the things she was saying to be factually untrue, giving her enough breathing room to avoid an argument by framing it as a misunderstanding rather than a lie on her part. Now *we* clearly don't "see eye to eye" either, so she can't be around me anymore. Anyone who she can't manipulate is cast aside with remarkable speed, and she has expressed a general hatred for "people", as near as I can tell, because most people react badly to the way she acts.

We're only now figuring out just how damaged she is. Unfortunately, she doesn't want help or view her situation as a problem. She has no real work history, no education, and seems to be systematically manipulating her therapists with elaborate stories which utterly renounce any form of culpability for her own situation. Based on some things she said during her crying fit, she seems to interpret getting through life by manipulating a few bucks out of the poor slobs she can con into ...


Here's a question, was her Father:

-Never Around
-Or an Authoritarian Asshat who was always right no matter what
 
2013-06-12 05:44:30 PM  
I've met plenty of people who would outright tell you that they'd rather watch ten thousand kittens be tortured and killed one by one rather than having a single penny of their paycheck be taken out to save them all.  They'd probably try to make up excuses but the fact of the matter is they just don't care.  America is full of them.  If you told everyone that 10% of their paycheck would ensure free high quality health care for everyone in America, they'd still reject it, even though they probably already spend 30% of their paycheck on shiatty healthcare...they could reduce that to 10% and everyone would be taken care of, but they'd rather pay MORE just to see other people suffer.
 
2013-06-12 05:44:42 PM  
I wonder where solpisism would fall. If you truly don't believe that anything you perceive is actually real then why would you ever constrain your actions according to arbitrary rules?
 
2013-06-12 05:49:30 PM  
There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.
 
2013-06-12 05:53:50 PM  

Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.


In response to this and freewill above ("Girl ain't right" story): I don't think you can tell with teenagers. They're going through so much shiat, and going through it so farking poorly, that you can't make any judgements about what their real character is like.
 
2013-06-12 05:55:44 PM  

bugontherug: AGremlin: bugontherug: AGremlin: You implied that the term sociopath had never been a clinical diagnosis, it was in DSM III-R. The DSM is used extensively in the U.S. by mental health professionals. As I said, DSM IV uses the term Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Not sure what terminology DSM V uses.

And I'm not sure your point.

I didn't "imply" it. I stated it outright. And my point was that you were wrong. If what you've said is true, then it looks like I was wrong. If so, then "oops."

I've found one or two non-authoritative citations supporting your claim. I can't find an online copy of the DSM III-r to verify it though.

If I find my old copy, I'll scan it and post.

I was trying to be nice....but yes you stated an incorrect fact without research.  Oops indeed.

Not until you prove it. And logging on as an alt to support your claim with someone claiming a "vague memory" doesn't count. You still haven't even provided a citation to any source claiming the diagnosis of "sociopath" existed in the DSM III-R.

Now, here is a link to some DSM III-R pages. The top one is a list of accepted DSM III-R codes. I've examined all 9 pages of them. They do not contain a diagnosis of "sociopath." They do, however, contain diagnoses of APD, NPD, and and BPD--the very same diagnostic criteria as exist in the DSM-IV.

It would be quite a surprise if they changed the diagnosis of "sociopath" to APD, an already existing disorder, as you claim.

I do believe you're wrong, and I'm right. I stand by my proposition, now supported by citation.
 I stated you were wrong based on lots of research done before today. And the best evidence before us supports me, not you.


So, let's see that scan of yours.


Enjoy your community college Psych 101 course.  I don't care what you "believe" anymore.
 
2013-06-12 05:55:52 PM  
Are we talking about religion (or Religion, if that's your bag) as that is the basic premise of every Theistic organization (even Scientology, the ultimate sociopaths). "My god tells me what to do and therefore, whatever I do is better than anything you do because I am the representative of the only true god."

If that's not sociopathic behavior then please, put your Liberal Arts/ Sociology Major to good use and make your parents proud by refuting/trolling my interpretation.
 
2013-06-12 05:56:34 PM  

shortymac: -Or an Authoritarian Asshat who was always right no matter what


Funny you should bring that up.

My friend was naive to marry him at 20. He was totally controlled by his family, and expected his children to be totally controlled by him. For the most part, he got what he wanted. When it came time to end the marriage (middle aged, looked around, figured his life sucked and it must be because he was married, got divorced, life still sucked), New York lacking no-fault divorce and "turning the house into a living hell" being a time-tested strategy, he basically took the reins off the daughter and started rewarding her for being horrible to her mother, hugging her and praising the daughter for cursing at her, hitting her, etc. The police were called several times. Told her she didn't have to pass classes, didn't have to come home at night, didn't have to get a job, in order to make her mother the "bad" parent.

I now have some reason to believe that the father has somehow convinced his adult son to turn over a portion of his paycheck to him in order to keep him from moving out, as well, and his son lives in abject terror of his father knowing that he has any kind of relationship with his mother, even looking over his shoulder nervously when they run into each other in public.

My friend only found out recently that once she was driven out of the house, he actually couldn't handle his daughter on his own and had her committed. In spite of that, she completely blames her mother for "abandoning her" while insisting that her father was "there for her" because he didn't make her get a job and lets her live there rent-free at 30, once she realized her last boyfriend wasn't going to give her a free house. (On the other hand, there is some reason to believe that the father has actually been disclosing her whereabouts to her ex, in order to give him opportunities to basically stalk her in order to seek reconciliation and thereby get her back out of the house.) She has the police calls on her laundry list of grievances explaining why her mother's love and wanting the best for her is "a big act", claiming that the police were called for "like, no reason". (Isn't the belief that other people's feelings are also a bogus facade a common aspect of sociopathy?) From prior experience, I know that when she says something happened for "no reason", it is an indicator that she was doing something horrible and realizes it is not in her interest to disclose it.

Farked up shiat.
 
2013-06-12 06:01:35 PM  
I could do that, but then I'd have to live with me.
 
2013-06-12 06:02:35 PM  

Hrist: I've met plenty of people who would outright tell you that they'd rather watch ten thousand kittens be tortured and killed one by one rather than having a single penny of their paycheck be taken out to save them all.  They'd probably try to make up excuses but the fact of the matter is they just don't care.  America is full of them.  If you told everyone that 10% of their paycheck would ensure free high quality health care for everyone in America, they'd still reject it, even though they probably already spend 30% of their paycheck on shiatty healthcare...they could reduce that to 10% and everyone would be taken care of, but they'd rather pay MORE just to see other people suffer.


That is absolutely true but I think that's just being a selfish, short-sighted idiot.
 
2013-06-12 06:03:03 PM  

OneNightStand: Are we talking about religion (or Religion, if that's your bag) as that is the basic premise of every Theistic organization (even Scientology, the ultimate sociopaths). "My god tells me what to do and therefore, whatever I do is better than anything you do because I am the representative of the only true god."

If that's not sociopathic behavior then please, put your Liberal Arts/ Sociology Major to good use and make your parents proud by refuting/trolling my interpretation.


I'd say no, because like any other socially organizing principle, religion doesn't preclude empathy with others within the group. Sociopathy (sociopathism? sociopathocity?) does. But you might be right if you interpret "groups" as mutually accepted extensions of individual selves - meaning the empathy within the group is only empathy for the self. In which case we're farked.

/B.A. - Thanks Mom and Dad!
 
2013-06-12 06:05:03 PM  

xanadian: FTFA: 1. Claim there are a lot more people like this than you previously thought. Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated, but it succeeds in giving the impression that being a psycho is no stranger than having dyslexia or a bad knee.

I used to be a normal person, like you, but then a sociopath put an arrow in my knee.


Let me guess. Some sociopath stole your sweetroll.
 
2013-06-12 06:06:16 PM  

shortymac: gglibertine: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?

Have you seen some of the shiat kids do and say to one another? How mercilessly they'll tease and beat up the "weird" kid?

Did you see what those kids did to that old bus monitor lady?

The vast majority of living people go not give a shiat about the world around them except for societal expectations and their comfort.

Remember, we're all just hairless apes.


this
 
2013-06-12 06:08:53 PM  

brantgoose: The true sociopath enjoys harming others and has no reason to refrain from harming others. They can be socialized (learn the rules, play by the rules as long as they please or as long as necessary) but in the end, there is something totally missing.


Loved your post, mostly agreed. Do not agree with this. In order to derive enjoyment from harm, there must be a payoff of some kind. In people with empathy, this payoff must either be higher than the price they might pay (mostly internally, most do not think of long term consequences so we're talking guilt/remorse here) or the urge to get the payoff so strong that it overrides whatever impulse control they have.

Most of us do not enjoy harming people for reasons other than empathy. I've no desire, for example, to sexually violate you with a bottle. It's not that forcible penetration with an object bothers me. It's not that I'm sexually prudish, or even put off by the idea between consenting adults and all that jazz. It simply wouldn't do anything for me, so why exert the effort to bother? You might find it really icky. But...if I you were assured you'd get $10 million for doing it to a consenting adult...you might. Or the cure for cancer. Whatever your price might be. Whatever has more value in some way *to you* than the price *you pay* for doing it. It's all about ourselves. Even if we're being altrustic in some way (cancer! cured it!) it might be argued it's because we enjoyed the credit. Or if credit is denied us (cancer magically goes away no one knows why, no one will believe yoooou) our 'payoff' might be the satisifaction we enjoy from knowing how farking awesome we are.

Anyhoo, they enjoy winning. Winning might very well involve hurting others. Winning might be making the other person cry. Or destroying them. Or it might be winning teacher of the year and doing better than everyone else. There's an arrogance laced with contempt that they *know* they're better than most everyone else, and deep enjoyment in proving that, and winning. That can surface in someone being very competitive, instead of destructive.

No argument that it is a huge problem for society as many are able to do things that benefit self at great cost to the group (hello bankers) but since it's not something that can be changed or cured, it's something we have to watch for within our systems to prevent that harm to the group. Or try to in any event.
 
2013-06-12 06:09:11 PM  
A co-worker once accused me of treating the general populace as a science experiment only I was privy to. I would coerce, manipulate, seed and sow, then monitor the fruits of my destruction. She was really close to me, so she saw what I was doing and became rather disturbed. She finally called me on it, so I started a romantic relationship with her and destroyed her ego and self worth, then told her how and why I did it.

I used to be an extreme asshole. I'm paying a karmic debt these days for my sins, for damned sure.
 
2013-06-12 06:10:14 PM  

AGremlin: Enjoy your community college Psych 101 course. I don't care what you "believe" anymore.


= D
 
2013-06-12 06:15:31 PM  

Lady Indica: Most of us do not enjoy harming people for reasons other than empathy. I've no desire, for example, to sexually violate you with a bottle.


Go on...

Seriously, though, my understanding is that because the sociopath lacks stimulation from empathy, they often get stimulation from constructing games to win.

Push this person's buttons, make them cry. Trick someone into doing whatever you want by telling them you love them. Pretend to be interested in a conversation and let the fool go on never knowing how boring you find them. Badmouth someone and get other people to agree with you.

Without the empathy to feel sorrow for what you've done to someone, you only feel pleasure from getting your way.

HST's Dead Carcass actually just put it pretty well above, and I've watched the girl I'm discussing in these other posts turn on the cruelty switch with her own brother at the drop of a hat in order to cut his balls off with a smile. He's always said he thought she was a monster, and now we're starting to see what he meant.
 
2013-06-12 06:15:33 PM  

Astorix: Ayn Rand was definitely a sociopath. So was L Ron Hubbard and Aleistar Crowley.


Very true.

Are you saying false prophets of cults often are sociopathic narcissists?

If someone already has the ANSWER before you ask the QUESTION they are selling some big BS.
If then they tell you only THEY have the answers. Grab your wallet and run!
 
2013-06-12 06:18:17 PM  

dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


www.blastr.com
 
2013-06-12 06:21:05 PM  

AGremlin: Enjoy your community college Psych 101 course. I don't care what you "believe" anymore.


Here's the thing. Do you know why I acknowledged I might be wrong?

It's because I think it's okay to be wrong sometimes. I'm comfortable admitting I'm wrong when I'm wrong, because it's not that big of a deal to me.

Don't let the chuckleheads on Fark convince you that being wrong is a mortal sin. It's not. People make mistakes.
 
2013-06-12 06:21:14 PM  

Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.


One of the reasons why I think everyone is born with these tendencies and we learn to curb them.

My completely herb-based theory is that sociopathic behaviors are a sort of "survival mode" of our pysche, sort of like the "monkey sphere" (Humans can only handle like 100-odd social connections at a time). We can engage in this pathos of behavior temporarily to escape bad situations, like say war, famine, etc.
 
2013-06-12 06:22:04 PM  

punkhippie: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

In response to this and freewill above ("Girl ain't right" story): I don't think you can tell with teenagers. They're going through so much shiat, and going through it so farking poorly, that you can't make any judgements about what their real character is like.


In my case, the sociopathic behavior would have been from my childhood up through my mid 20's. While I don't think I'm incapable of empathy now, I do wonder if I have an abnormal sense of it. It seems a little hard to explain, but it's more of a concern for the well-being of others from an intellectual rather than an emotional level. I sometimes wonder if I'm a sociopath who's just trying not to be one.
 
2013-06-12 06:26:25 PM  

freewill: Lady Indica: Most of us do not enjoy harming people for reasons other than empathy. I've no desire, for example, to sexually violate you with a bottle.

Go on...

Seriously, though, my understanding is that because the sociopath lacks stimulation from empathy, they often get stimulation from constructing games to win.

Push this person's buttons, make them cry. Trick someone into doing whatever you want by telling them you love them. Pretend to be interested in a conversation and let the fool go on never knowing how boring you find them. Badmouth someone and get other people to agree with you.

Without the empathy to feel sorrow for what you've done to someone, you only feel pleasure from getting your way.

HST's Dead Carcass actually just put it pretty well above, and I've watched the girl I'm discussing in these other posts turn on the cruelty switch with her own brother at the drop of a hat in order to cut his balls off with a smile. He's always said he thought she was a monster, and now we're starting to see what he meant.


Yes, that's my understanding as well. But some people heavily invested in the 'game' of 'winning' are also very concerned about winning by their own rules. That's also why they're better than you. Everyone has an investment in HOW they see themselves. We just don't all share the same parameters for self. There are those in history who had an investment in self in being the best torturer (as an extreme example).

But in modern society there's plenty of professions that sociopaths can do well in if intelligent and self disciplined. Bright sociopaths can make damned good surgeons. And lawyers. In fact I almost died on the table due to a breathing problem during surgery and the doc who saved me I'm 99% sure is a functional sociopath. Unbelievably charming, glib, and came around after to talk about how wonderful he was like the winning HS QB, and then never followed up again. My personal doc who was doing the surgery by contrast came around concerned as fark for me and how I was doing. But I'd damned glad the one doc was emotionally detached enough to go with a risky and somewhat violent method of pulling me out. (While they were bringing me up the breathing tube triggered an asthma attack so severe it was collapsing my respiratory system. They had to drop me under again. Every time it happened, but they couldn't remove the tube because...breathing now compromised. Took hours to find solution. Doctor had another doctor literally rip out the one tube as he slammed the other down my throat...a child tube SLATHERED in lidocaine. It worked, though I was quite sick and sore after. And my lip was torn. But alive. Prolly sans a couple of brain cells. ;)) Just for the curious, it's not that amazing of a story really. Other than to like, me personally.

If you're dealing with a criminal case for your life, you want a lawyer who could be described as brilliant, a great oratator and ruthless. Or do you want a really, really nice guy. (Or gal, whatever).

Lots of other things too.

Another aspect of sociopaths I rarely see mentioned is that they seem to very rarely have a morbid fear of death. Some actually believe in an afterlife (or puport to, can't know what's in anyone's mind for sure) but that fear most people have...is very very muted in sociopaths. Another trait which I imagine comes in handy in some specific situations.

/very scared of death
 
2013-06-12 06:27:13 PM  
Scrolling up, I'm realizing that all of my posts in this thread sound like Dr. Evil describing his childhood.

When she was insolent, she was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard, really.
 
2013-06-12 06:31:13 PM  
Is this like Mensa? How can I apply?
 
2013-06-12 06:52:25 PM  

Walter Paisley: punkhippie: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

In response to this and freewill above ("Girl ain't right" story): I don't think you can tell with teenagers. They're going through so much shiat, and going through it so farking poorly, that you can't make any judgements about what their real character is like.

In my case, the sociopathic behavior would have been from my childhood up through my mid 20's. While I don't think I'm incapable of empathy now, I do wonder if I have an abnormal sense of it. It seems a little hard to explain, but it's more of a concern for the well-being of others from an intellectual rather than an emotional level. I sometimes wonder if I'm a sociopath who's just trying not to be one.


There's plenty of other personality disorders and such. And again, ALL psychological problems are things people experience on a smaller/lesser scale. It's also possible to have episodes of various psychatric problems that resolve naturally and do not reoccur.

Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.
 
2013-06-12 06:53:22 PM  

freewill: shortymac: -Or an Authoritarian Asshat who was always right no matter what

Funny you should bring that up.

My friend was naive to marry him at 20. He was totally controlled by his family, and expected his children to be totally controlled by him. For the most part, he got what he wanted. When it came time to end the marriage (middle aged, looked around, figured his life sucked and it must be because he was married, got divorced, life still sucked), New York lacking no-fault divorce and "turning the house into a living hell" being a time-tested strategy, he basically took the reins off the daughter and started rewarding her for being horrible to her mother, hugging her and praising the daughter for cursing at her, hitting her, etc. The police were called several times. Told her she didn't have to pass classes, didn't have to come home at night, didn't have to get a job, in order to make her mother the "bad" parent.

I now have some reason to believe that the father has somehow convinced his adult son to turn over a portion of his paycheck to him in order to keep him from moving out, as well, and his son lives in abject terror of his father knowing that he has any kind of relationship with his mother, even looking over his shoulder nervously when they run into each other in public.

My friend only found out recently that once she was driven out of the house, he actually couldn't handle his daughter on his own and had her committed. In spite of that, she completely blames her mother for "abandoning her" while insisting that her father was "there for her" because he didn't make her get a job and lets her live there rent-free at 30, once she realized her last boyfriend wasn't going to give her a free house. (On the other hand, there is some reason to believe that the father has actually been disclosing her whereabouts to her ex, in order to give him opportunities to basically stalk her in order to seek reconciliation and thereby get her back out of the house.) She has ...


Called it, sadly.

Son needs to leave the fark house and just leave, there are poisonous people in this world and the best you can do is cut them out of your life.

The most farked up people I have ever met either have parents:

-Just like them
-Abusive Authoritarians
-Completely checked out, no interest in kid at all. Kid is fed and clothed and that's it, no guidance.
 
2013-06-12 07:00:59 PM  
Sociopaths can be really fun to hang out with.....until they begin their pattern of manipulation.
 
2013-06-12 07:02:20 PM  

JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?


I like your answer :)
 
2013-06-12 07:05:07 PM  
My experience with a sociopath is very limited, but his psychologist once scared the bejeebers out of me.  She was filling out an assessment on him, and casually mentioned that there is an ongoing discussion among therapists as to the efficacy of treatment.  "Are we really helping repair the damage, or teaching a better level of disguise?  Are we healing him or creating Ted Bundy 2.0" was her line of comments.

What's in it for me is his first and only thought about every situation.  His level of compliance with behaviors and norms is based on his perceived level of reward.  There is no future, all compensation is due in full right now, or no compliance.  By the same token, all consequences have to be immediate as well.

I understand his line of reasoning, but I have boundaries that I adhere to.  I may want to cut you off in traffic because fark you, but I don't because I'm rarely in that great a rush to get somewhere.  He will do it because fark you, even if he ends up in a wreck.  The idea that his actions may not work in his favor doesn't even cross his mind.
 
2013-06-12 07:08:48 PM  
Just what the world needs: more justification for anti-social behavior.
 
2013-06-12 07:19:55 PM  

shortymac: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

One of the reasons why I think everyone is born with these tendencies and we learn to curb them.

My completely herb-based theory is that sociopathic behaviors are a sort of "survival mode" of our pysche, sort of like the "monkey sphere" (Humans can only handle like 100-odd social connections at a time). We can engage in this pathos of behavior temporarily to escape bad situations, like say war, famine, etc.


That's an interesting take on the subject, almost like an atavistic assholery that one can tap into in fight-or-flight situations.

Lady Indica: Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.


I was consciously aware of my behavior and even celebrating it in my late teens and early 20's (I'm a former LaVeyan Satanist) but it really didn't occur to me that I was a toxic person even in my closer relationships until a romantic relationship ended and an ex told me that I was the kind of guy that was good for an exciting fling but not for a long term relationship. That criticism started some introspection that eventually grew into a full paradigm shift and I went from being a briefly charming nowhere man to some kind of nutter, but at least I'm more at peace with myself now.
 
2013-06-12 07:28:24 PM  
Sociopaths are going to be the aspies.

And it's going to be hilarious.
 
2013-06-12 07:46:44 PM  

optional: Sociopaths are going to be the aspies.

And it's going to be hilarious.


Sadly yes.

There's a lot of mental diseases that start out as only for extreme cases but end up getting "diluted" as time goes on because there are people who engage in similar behavior, but not to the extreme.

Sometimes the "milder" side of the disease is spinned off into a new disease.
 
2013-06-12 08:09:01 PM  

Walter Paisley: shortymac: Walter Paisley: There may be people who are inherent sociopaths, but can someone temporarily be a sociopath? I probably would have fit the criteria when I was younger, but I have mellowed out a lot in recent years.

One of the reasons why I think everyone is born with these tendencies and we learn to curb them.

My completely herb-based theory is that sociopathic behaviors are a sort of "survival mode" of our pysche, sort of like the "monkey sphere" (Humans can only handle like 100-odd social connections at a time). We can engage in this pathos of behavior temporarily to escape bad situations, like say war, famine, etc.

That's an interesting take on the subject, almost like an atavistic assholery that one can tap into in fight-or-flight situations.

Lady Indica: Odds are you were just a shiat. I wouldn't worry about it, lots of kids were. Much of that is affected by influence and environment. As one enters adulthood, that's when responsibility really begins because you have more independence to control those factors. Kids by both situation and brain often have far less a choice than the rest of us. Something we mostly recognize legally.

If you're still concerned about it and want to do a little mental housecleaning (or for anyone really) find someone good. There's plenty of shiat therapists out there. Or ask a friend or relative to give you a really honest opinion if you think they will and you can handle it.

I was consciously aware of my behavior and even celebrating it in my late teens and early 20's (I'm a former LaVeyan Satanist) but it really didn't occur to me that I was a toxic person even in my closer relationships until a romantic relationship ended and an ex told me that I was the kind of guy that was good for an exciting fling but not for a long term relationship. That criticism started some introspection that eventually grew into a full paradigm shift and I went from being a briefly charming nowhere man to some kind of nutter, but at least ...


You have already done the biggest step, introspection. The vast majority of people never do that.

I highly suggest meditation and a objective review of your life with that. Start looking in early childhood, was your home life chaotic? Where your parents emotionally/verbally abusive? Did you always feel like an outcast from everyone else?

Please note that this isn't to play the blame game, this is only to help figure out where and why this pattern of behavior began. Once you know that, it's much easier to put a stop to it. You are ripping out the roots.

You are going to have to take a cold hard look at your actions and it ain't going to be pretty, you are going to feel like shiat for a while, but that's part of the feeling process. Each bruise is a lesson.

I highly recommend learning about the major philosophers and being as objective as possible.

Please pick up the book by Erich Fromm called "Escape from Freedom", it's a real eye opener. I also like Joseph Campbell's work on myths and symbols, I find it helps untangle my subconscious.

You'll never be completely "cured" or "done", life is all about growth, this is a constant process.
 
2013-06-12 08:47:02 PM  
shiat like this is what happens when you stop calling things "good" or "evil".

Seriously, it's a form of moral laziness.  Too many of us refuse to make the effort to declare something as "evil", because doing so obligates us to do something about it.  So sociopaths aren't evil bastards who should be locked up, they become mental illnesses that should be treated, and then "morally different" from the rest of us and their ethical diversity a thing to be celebrated.
 
2013-06-12 08:48:02 PM  
Society itself acts like a sociopath.    Society is terrified of sociopaths simply because they cannot be manipulated with shame and approval.
 
2013-06-12 09:21:49 PM  
So, CEO's and the like then?
 
2013-06-12 10:35:55 PM  

Nick Nostril: So, CEO's and the like then?


Often. Yes. Though there are people who can by necessity compartmentalize. Sort of like the 'I'm only an asshole online' sort of things. No/little empathy in some situations, tremendously empathy for their own. It's what allows humans to do the whole 'us and them' thing, and war and shiat. Turkey's genocide of Armenia. Holocaust of Jews, Roma, and other minority groups by the Reich. Tusi in Africa.

Giants v. Yankees.

=\
 
2013-06-12 10:39:07 PM  

Mouser: shiat like this is what happens when you stop calling things "good" or "evil".

Seriously, it's a form of moral laziness.  Too many of us refuse to make the effort to declare something as "evil", because doing so obligates us to do something about it.  So sociopaths aren't evil bastards who should be locked up, they become mental illnesses that should be treated, and then "morally different" from the rest of us and their ethical diversity a thing to be celebrated.


Wrong. They are NOT evil bastards. Their actions however may make them evil, or not. We may agree that it's easier for some people to be an evil bastard when they have no internal pain system to regulate...but one might argue that makes them even more moral when they act as such.

Just as I have no belief in god/s or an afterlife. When we die, as far as I know, we're dead. That's it. GAME OVER.

That does not mean that I'm an evil bastard because I'm not afraid of the pain system of most afterlifes most ppl seem to believe in. What I DO determines that. Who I am determines that.

/soulless ginger
 
2013-06-12 10:44:30 PM  
A college student accidentally came up with a brilliant way to expose sociopaths:
• He was studying box turtles.
• He wanted to see how they fared crossing the road.
• He put one on the shoulder of a road, out of the drive lane.

Results:
Six percent of drivers swerved to crush the turtle. Others tried and missed.
• A professor asked his class of 110 how many had intentionally swerved to crush turtles. 34 people raised their hands.

Ten to thirty percent would intentionally crush turtles. I think the drivers are a more random sample of the population. What does it say that 34 percent of the college students had done it? They are a more narrowly selected population.
 
2013-06-12 11:03:39 PM  

Lady Indica: Just as I have no belief in god/s or an afterlife. When we die, as far as I know, we're dead. That's it. GAME OVER.


I've seen people mention this. That at death, the consciousness dissipates, and eventually so does the body, returning to its component particles, atoms, molecules and the rest.

However, the other half of that equation is ignored - that the universe organized itself into you in the first place. First it organized itself into swirling balls of gas and dust which became galaxies and stars. Then the sun, the planets, including earth. Then the oceans, early life, plants, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, sloths, tigers, lemurs and humans. Everything you see. And then you.

It is a common mistake that man makes, throughout history, to think of himself and his machinations as being somehow above or separate from the natural world. No. He is a product of it. His brain is a product of it. His technology is a product of it, as surely as a bird's nest, a beaver's dam or a wasp's nest is.

How does the non-sentient become sentient? I have no idea, maybe it can make the jump. Perhaps there is something else pervading the universe. We can only detect five percent of it.

What is the universe up to I wonder? I'm intrigued by the first half the equation, where it organizes from the underlying fabric, as well in addition to the second part, where it dissipates back into the fabric.
 
2013-06-12 11:09:50 PM  
Re: my previous comment:

"But at that moment, I realized that something deeply hidden had to lie behind things." -- Albert Einstein.
 
2013-06-12 11:17:38 PM  
Article written by a young, pre-Weyland-Yutani Carter Burke. He's certainly an authority on the subject.

blogs.telegraph.co.uka4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com
 
2013-06-12 11:26:55 PM  

JungleBoogie: Results:
• Six percent of drivers swerved to crush the turtle. Others tried and missed.
• A professor asked his class of 110 how many had intentionally swerved to crush turtles. 34 people raised their hands.

Ten to thirty percent would intentionally crush turtles. I think the drivers are a more random sample of the population. What does it say that 34 percent of the college students had done it? They are a more narrowly selected population.


If it's a psych class, what it says is that there's some truth to the popular notion that people who already know they are farked up take psych classes in order to attempt to self-diagnose.
 
2013-06-13 12:57:07 AM  

shortymac: gglibertine: shortymac: Quite frankly, I think everyone is born like this (to varying degrees) and have to be taught to curb that behavior and think about others.

People who think this scare the crap out of me. Much like the people who think that without the fear of god, everyone would just run around raping and murdering and stealing like crazy. It suggests to me that you actually feel the desire to do these things, and only don't because you've been trained not to.

/And I did, I totally called it. Do I win a prize?

Have you seen some of the shiat kids do and say to one another? How mercilessly they'll tease and beat up the "weird" kid?

Did you see what those kids did to that old bus monitor lady?

The vast majority of living people go not give a shiat about the world around them except for societal expectations and their comfort.

Remember, we're all just hairless apes.


That's funny; personally, there's times when I can't watch violent movies because I can't stomach it. I'll watch someone in a war movie catch a round to the shoulder and my shoulder will actually hurt, if the sound and visual effects are well-done.

Someone above mentioned that sociopaths only feel for those they see as an extension of themselves; I am human. I look at another person and recognize them as human. Therefore, as a member of my same species they are an extension of myself. I guess I'm on the opposite end of the empathy scale...

Yes, when it's a group versus one or fewer in number who are different, it can get very ugly. It's a chance for the group to act out against that which they reject in themselves. If we hate another, it's usually because we see something in them that we resent in ourselves... and the group that's greater in number is (in that context) obviously superior to the group that is smaller in number; majority rule is something that seems to be hard-coded into us.

I say all of the above as a grown up "weird kid".

None of those kids who picked on the odd one out, or the kids that did whatever to the bus driver feels personally responsible, not even the one that swung first; they'd blame it on everyone else egging them on.

I think we all feel for one another as individuals, but as soon as it's one group versus a smaller group, or an individual trying to make their way as the new person in an established group, things can get very ugly very quickly.

Of course, you have sociopaths and on the opposite end of the scale, people like me who seem to feel way too much for others skewing the average...
 
2013-06-13 02:23:20 AM  

JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

[www.blastr.com image 538x555]


You win the thread.

 Seriously, I think there are fewer true sociopaths than people think. A true sociopath has no ability to feel empathy or place value on others AT ALL. Many painted with the ugly brush of sociopathy by the  undiscerning masses can actually feel quite a bit of empathy and do place value on most all people, but are also lucky enough to have developed the capacity to chose to place none whatsoever on others.
 They aren't sociopaths per se, just a bit more selective in who they hold up as being a valid human. Connoisseurs so to speak.
 
2013-06-13 04:07:34 AM  

UrukHaiGuyz: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

A jerk?


Depends.
www.qwipster.net
How do you feel about cans?
 
2013-06-13 04:13:43 AM  

Honest Bender: Could a sociopath pass a voit kampff test?


Is this testing whether I'm a sociopath or a lesbian, Mr. Bender?
 
2013-06-13 04:27:41 AM  

Cookbook's Anarchist: xanadian: FTFA: 1. Claim there are a lot more people like this than you previously thought. Confessions of a Sociopath says that "one in twenty five of us are sociopaths". Yeah, and I think I've probably dated them all. The figure is patently inflated, but it succeeds in giving the impression that being a psycho is no stranger than having dyslexia or a bad knee.

I used to be a normal person, like you, but then a sociopath put an arrow in my knee.

Let me guess. Some sociopath stole your sweetroll.


Hail, sociopath.  Conjure me up a warm DSM-V, won't you?
 
2013-06-13 07:00:58 AM  

CliChe Guevara: JRoo: dopekitty74: If you think you MIGHT be a bit sociopathic, but feel vaguely guilty about it, what does that make you?

[www.blastr.com image 538x555]

You win the thread.

 Seriously, I think there are fewer true sociopaths than people think. A true sociopath has no ability to feel empathy or place value on others AT ALL. Many painted with the ugly brush of sociopathy by the  undiscerning masses can actually feel quite a bit of empathy and do place value on most all people, but are also lucky enough to have developed the capacity to chose to place none whatsoever on others.
 They aren't sociopaths per se, just a bit more selective in who they hold up as being a valid human. Connoisseurs so to speak.


We have more accurate numbers because of brain scans. A psychopath's brain looks different under an fMRI. (James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives. He's also descended from a farkton of murderers.) Now, no one is talking about using these findings as diagnostic, let alone anything else...but it's enough to give us an idea of what we're looking at.

And it's about 3% of the population. Or about the same number most studies give for homosexuals, to give you a perspective. Is the actual number higher? Maybe. We dunno. How many of them die or are incarcerated before adulthood and basically from then on are constantly in jail due to their condition (lack of fear, risk taking, criminal activity gone wrong, etc)? We don't know. Are there people who have a brain scan similar to sociopaths, and yet are *not* themselves? Maybe. We don't know.

It's the first time we've even seen the suspected brain differences and can see what regions are actually affected, and how that explains the condition. We know the differences that take place as to why some are violent...and some are not. (Environment plays a huuuuge part. Genetics have to be there, but environment makes the monster).

All these things are the very beginnings of being able to potentially do something about it. Neuroscience is still in it's infancy. I take prozac (as I've mentioned before) for PMDD. It's been hugely beneficial for me in many many ways. The most important to *me* has been a relief from chronic anxiety and clinical depression and suicidal idealation. My overall quality of life is soooo much better. And we're not even sure why SSRIs work. I just saw a study this evening that talked about long term use of SSRIs supressing the learned fear response and that people think that's bad. It farks up amydgala learning. Interesting shiat. I personally think that's why it works so well for some PTSD people, and why it works well for some types of depression. And specifically for me...it makes sense on why it works. Or a portion of why it works. Or...it might turn out to be wrong. Infancy.

But as we learn more of the hows and whys of mental illness, it's no different than any other disease. Heart disease is a disease of both genetics and environment. You can do everything possible, eat right, be in the best shape of your life...and be felled by heart disease. You can have great genetics but be a lazy lump and eat like shiat and weigh 900 lbs and you're likely to croak in your 30s or 40s as a result. It's a combo is the point, and the same is true for mental health diseases. The problem is, we often don't know the environmental risks. And what we do know of the genetic risks is pretty pathetic.

Psychotropic medication for me doesn't change who I am. It merely fixes that farked up internal state which sets me into morbid anxiety over things that do not require that level of care or concern. Not things like worrying about the NSA reading my thoughts (or mail or whatever) but things like 'oh god if I trip and fall and I'm out of work for a few weeks what will I do what will happen aaaaah' or worrying about bills, despite always managing to pay them on time (self employment means no guaranteed check...but if I worked for a company I'd worry about losing my job despite never having been fired by anyone). And that's not getting into some of the other uglier aspects of depression. I'm still ME, but it removes that inappropriate emotionally farked up internal state. That's the only difference for me.

Not so for everyone unfortunately. Bipolar people often struggle with the differences, enjoying the mania aspects (some of them) and of course no one enjoys depression. And medication can really suck. And that's IF you respond to medication. There's plenty of people with clinical depression who respond to *nothing*, and have to resort to EST as a last ditch bandaid to stay alive and semi functional.

And that doesn't even begin to address the many problems we simply can't treat. *sigh*

There's nothing we can do for a sociopath. Sociopaths typically aren't interested in change. They may be interested in why they are the way they are (they have egos like the rest of us after all) but that's usually it. They may express something akin to remorse about the way they are, but you see that typically in the ones incarcerated for serious crimes...and none of them are people who turned themselves in. They may have gotten lazy, chaotic, disorganized...but I can't think of a single sociopath who turned themselves in ever. Why would they? They don't feel remorse. They're NOT sorry. They're the 'I'm sorry I got caught' folks. Or they're sorry that the way they are, or lack of control they had, resulted in consequences they don't like. They're not remorseful. They don't feel bad for what they did.

Would a sociopath want to change? If there was a medication that allowed them to experience empathy...would they want it? Would they continue to take the medicine? I imagine it would be very difficult, and would seem to have little payoff.

Personally I suspect most would try it to see what those experiences they don't have were like. And I think almost none would continue to take it.

But perhaps as neuroscience advances it will be possible to repair some problems when people are kids. Then the argument becomes 'should we'. We live in a world where people argue that deafness is a desired trait, a culture that shouldn't be eradicated with cures or treatment.

Prolly won't happen in my lifetime though.
 
2013-06-13 03:33:55 PM  

Lady Indica: James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives.



I'm trying to find the talk where he claims to be a sociopath. Have a link handy?
 
2013-06-13 09:38:18 PM  

Holographic Shimmering Pork: Lady Indica: James Fallon talks about this research at TED. He's also a sociopath himself, which is another interesting talk he gives.


I'm trying to find the talk where he claims to be a sociopath. Have a link handy?


Found it. Tis here: http://worldsciencefestival.com/videos/moth_confessions_of_a_pro_socia l_psychopath

If that doesn't work for you or your device google 'James Fallon Confessions of a Pro-Social Psychopath' and you'll find it hosted on multiple sites. I strongly recommend watching his TED talk first (on psychopath brain scans) , then that one. Both are fascinating!
 
2013-06-14 02:31:58 AM  

Lady Indica: Would a sociopath want to change? If there was a medication that allowed them to experience empathy...would they want it? Would they continue to take the medicine? I imagine it would be very difficult, and would seem to have little payoff.


In my own experience, there are sociopaths who have consciences and those who don't. You might say sociopaths don't have consciences, but I beg to differ. It's just a different way we think about it. Knowing what is right and wrong in accordance to society, religion, or otherwise is the sociopathic conscience, in abscence of something you can feel, as opposed to being something only in theory.

For me, I felt emotions for the first time after smoking pot on a somewhat consistent basis, after a very hard time dealing with what it did to me. After the adjustment period, it has been the best experience of my life, and if I had a medication that could let me feel that day-to-day, I'd definitely take it. I wouldn't even care for a high.

And take it from me, please. The thoughts and beliefs I once had are the stuff of your worst nightmares, and my own. All it would take is the will, because I could always find the way. I wanted to kill that which I hated, at a deep, true, honest, and primal level. But I always held out some part that said there was a better and more productive way to live my life; that there was a way to live and let live. I found it, and many others can. It's so sad that this way is deemed illegal and frowned upon by mainstream society.
 
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