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(Chronicle of Higher Education)   Why privacy matters even when you have nothing to hide. This is also why we have curtains and bathroom doors that lock   (chronicle.com) divider line 305
    More: Interesting, Bruce Schneier, Kafkaesque, concurring opinions, John Dewey, bathrooms, Henry James  
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15247 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2013 at 12:49 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-12 12:05:14 PM
But I have those because I have something to hide, my penis.
 
2013-06-12 12:07:03 PM
The only things that is new to the argument is the concept of linking purchases (and presumably other activities) to produce a conclusion that may or may not be correct. That does seem to me to be a serious concern.
 
2013-06-12 12:35:47 PM
Privacy matters, but people are sheep and unless you push them the vast majority would not admit that privacy is a big deal because they do not expect the extremes of personal intrusion mentioned in this article. Most people in this country are fat and happy or too apathetic to care. And the entities that do care, the corporations, want to be able to use your information, so they lobby Congress to keep the status quo. That's why the EU nations have good privacy laws and we have terrible ones.
 
2013-06-12 12:47:21 PM
I bet if that guy put his darkest and most private secrets towards the end of that 'article'... they would still remain secret forever.

/TLDR
 
2013-06-12 12:51:49 PM
I have friends who say the whole "nothing to hide nothing to fear" thing, but they never give me their passwords to facebook, or their email, or voicemail, or let me go through their text messages.

I wonder what they're hiding.
 
2013-06-12 12:52:09 PM
Privacy matters because we live in a shame-based society. Erase the shame, and even the desire for privacy will seem primitive.
 
2013-06-12 12:52:12 PM
Privacy Invaded:

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-12 12:52:16 PM

Walker: But I have those because I have something to hide, my penis.


Your girlfriend says its not very visible anyway.

/I keed
 
2013-06-12 12:53:19 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: I bet if that guy put his darkest and most private secrets towards the end of that 'article'... they would still remain secret forever.

/TLDR


I laughed so hard at this I nearly choked on my lunch. Well done...
 
2013-06-12 12:54:02 PM
This is a compelling, well thought and articulate piece, which is so far above the average US Citizen it might as well be in Ancient Greek.  Even I, who've read The Trial hit "Kafkaesque" and started to scroll forward.  I made myself read it, you should too.  It provides a strong argument on why this is important, one you can pass on to other people.

You will need to dumb it down.
 
2013-06-12 12:55:19 PM
So there should be no government secrets of any kind, but you have an unquestioned right to privacy.
 
2013-06-12 12:55:34 PM
Whoever thinks "bathroom doors that lock" allow privacy is obviously not a parent.
 
2013-06-12 12:56:00 PM
I think it should matter to anyone who has not yet disarmed its citizenry.
 
2013-06-12 12:56:31 PM
I would really like to see somebody collect as much data on our serving legislators as they can, and then release it to the public.
 
2013-06-12 12:57:09 PM
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

Don't fall into the "we're going to be peaceful demonstrators" trap that the Occupy Wall Street movement fell into. Without a true threat of physical violence the government has no incentive to change anything.

Storm the NSA offices. Storm Booz Allen. Storm the Capitol building. Storm the White House. They can't shoot you all.
 
2013-06-12 12:57:13 PM

Aarontology: I have friends who say the whole "nothing to hide nothing to fear" thing, but they never give me their passwords to facebook, or their email, or voicemail, or let me go through their text messages.

I wonder what they're hiding.


this is similar to the argument that the blogger made and it really isn't terribly convincing. Saying "I don't mind PRISM because the government doesn't know who I am calling or what I am saying and since I am not behaving in a manner that is suspicious, I have nothing to hide" is not akin to saying "I walk around naked because I have nothing to hide".

Of course the danger is that the collection of metadata on phone calls would lead to erroneous appearances of suspicion which could then lead to wiretaps on people who would not otherwise be subject to them in the absence of that data but the "nothing to hide" rebuttal can be applied to virtually anything, including why you don't wear a mask in public.
 
2013-06-12 12:57:14 PM

Ennuipoet: This is a compelling, well thought and articulate piece, which is so far above the average US Citizen it might as well be in Ancient Greek.   Even I, who've read The Trial hit "Kafkaesque" and started to scroll forward.  I made myself read it, you should too.  It provides a strong argument on why this is important, one you can pass on to other people.

You will need to dumb it down.


Lulz.
 
2013-06-12 12:57:18 PM
I know I have locks on the bathroom door for privacy.  If I did not have those I would be unable to get away from my kids.  All I need is a good 10 minutes to sit on the toilet and read my book or sportspage buuuut no even when I lock the door after 5 minutes I see little hands reaching under the door.  Hearing "whatchadoing" and "Daddaddaddad".  I do not have anything to hide.  I have things to hide from... namely thing one and thing two.
 
2013-06-12 12:57:56 PM

Ennuipoet: "Kafkaesque"


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-12 12:58:30 PM
I'm seeing a lot of the "nothing to hide" argument on my facebook feed lately. Just yesterday one of my FB friends posted something along the lines of "I'm tired of hearing people biatching about their rights when we have no right to withhold important information from the government".
 
2013-06-12 12:59:31 PM
Yup - there's nothing worse than sittin' on the terlet with a torpedo ready to launch then suddenly having your privacy invaded.
Ker-rist, woman! Stop screaming about the smell and GTFO so I can finish my mission!
 
2013-06-12 12:59:37 PM

had98c: I'm seeing a lot of the "nothing to hide" argument on my facebook feed lately. Just yesterday one of my FB friends posted something along the lines of "I'm tired of hearing people biatching about their rights when we have no right to withhold important information from the government".


Looks like 30 years of government directed education is doing its job.
 
2013-06-12 12:59:47 PM
Enigmamf
Privacy matters because we live in a shame-based society. Erase the shame, and even the desire for privacy will seem primitive.

That's not true at all. Without privacy, our personal information can be used against us in quite concrete physical ways. Lets say that I have a serious grudge against you. Without privacy, it becomes easy for me to surveil your activities and know that, for example, you always drive down a certain deserted road at a certain time of day at a high rate of speed. Now I can just leave a nail and some obstacles in your path, and boom... you're injured or dead. That's only the most basic technique. I'm sure we can all think of many others.
 
2013-06-12 12:59:56 PM
Time to watch "Enemy of the State" again.

/Very underrated movie
 
2013-06-12 01:00:04 PM
Why are things Kafkaesque but others are Orwellian. Are there things that are Kafkan or Orwellesque?
 
2013-06-12 01:01:20 PM
AverageAmericanGuy
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

What? So our choices are either "accept whats happening" or "violent revolution", according to you?

Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?
 
2013-06-12 01:01:44 PM

Walker: But I have those because I have something to hide, my penis.


for what it's worth, it's also immodest to call up some terrorist buddies for bomb making advice.
 
2013-06-12 01:01:58 PM

WTF Indeed: So there should be no government secrets of any kind, but you have an unquestioned right to privacy.


Ideally.
 
2013-06-12 01:02:43 PM

mrexcess: AverageAmericanGuy
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

What? So our choices are either "accept whats happening" or "violent revolution", according to you?

Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?


Democracy seems to have been pretty ineffective in preventing this. In fact, democracy has led to this.
 
2013-06-12 01:03:00 PM
 
2013-06-12 01:03:56 PM

oldfarthenry: Yup - there's nothing worse than sittin' on the terlet with a torpedo ready to launch then suddenly having your privacy invaded.
Ker-rist, woman! Stop screaming about the smell and GTFO so I can finish my mission!


Lord, I had a GF like that. I'd be sitting there on the can, she'd open the door and start yapping about something. I told her to leave me be, I mean, come on, I'm taking a dump here...her reply was something along the lines of "I've already seen you naked and everything else, what's the big deal?"

That one didn't last much longer. Sorry, I like to pinch a loaf in peace. That and she was batshiat crazy.

/Real redhead
//Real DD, not fat
///Really don't miss her
 
2013-06-12 01:03:57 PM
apolyton.net

"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
-Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
 
2013-06-12 01:04:03 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: mrexcess: AverageAmericanGuy
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

What? So our choices are either "accept whats happening" or "violent revolution", according to you?

Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?

Democracy seems to have been pretty ineffective in preventing this. In fact, democracy has led to this.



Be honest, you routinely post stupid shiat to make fun of your user name.
 
2013-06-12 01:04:06 PM

mrexcess: AverageAmericanGuy
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

What? So our choices are either "accept whats happening" or "violent revolution", according to you?

Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?


I'm not advocating a course of action.  Keep in mind that the President, Senate, House, judiciary, and the entire Intelligence community are vehemently defending this.  That's all three branches of government.  In fact, this appears to be the only thing they can all agree on.

Who do you recommend we turn to?
 
2013-06-12 01:04:18 PM

RumsfeldsReplacement: Time to watch "Enemy of the State" again.

/Very underrated movie


Underrated album as well. It's actually a very well crafted example of the So Cal/Power Pop genre.
 
2013-06-12 01:05:17 PM
Wait, I thought if Obama was doing it you guys were OK with it.
 
2013-06-12 01:05:47 PM

AngryDragon: mrexcess: AverageAmericanGuy
Unless we're ready to rise up violently and physically fight the government ala what the Turks are doing, all this outrage is impotent.

What? So our choices are either "accept whats happening" or "violent revolution", according to you?

Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?

I'm not advocating a course of action.  Keep in mind that the President, Senate, House, judiciary, and the entire Intelligence community are vehemently defending this.  That's all three branches of government.  In fact, this appears to be the only thing they can all agree on.

Who do you recommend we turn to?


The Second Amendment exists for this very reason.
 
2013-06-12 01:06:04 PM

AngryDragon: Who do you recommend we turn to?


A more open FISA court.
 
2013-06-12 01:06:17 PM

skullkrusher: Aarontology: I have friends who say the whole "nothing to hide nothing to fear" thing, but they never give me their passwords to facebook, or their email, or voicemail, or let me go through their text messages.

I wonder what they're hiding.

this is similar to the argument that the blogger made and it really isn't terribly convincing. Saying "I don't mind PRISM because the government doesn't know who I am calling or what I am saying and since I am not behaving in a manner that is suspicious, I have nothing to hide" is not akin to saying "I walk around naked because I have nothing to hide".

Of course the danger is that the collection of metadata on phone calls would lead to erroneous appearances of suspicion which could then lead to wiretaps on people who would not otherwise be subject to them in the absence of that data but the "nothing to hide" rebuttal can be applied to virtually anything, including why you don't wear a mask in public.


I'll give you a real life possibility of misuse of metadata: My wife wife is a beautician and we have an in-ground pool. The various chemicals we purchase could put us on a watchlist.
 
2013-06-12 01:06:24 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: RumsfeldsReplacement: Time to watch "Enemy of the State" again.

/Very underrated movie

Underrated album as well. It's actually a very well crafted example of the So Cal/Power Pop genre.


That would be Enema of the State, I believe.

I too am unashamed in admitting that I enjoyed Blink 182 back in the day
 
2013-06-12 01:07:11 PM
I don't understand who these are targeted at? For the most part they seem to be preaching to the choir.
 
2013-06-12 01:07:49 PM

simplicimus: skullkrusher: Aarontology: I have friends who say the whole "nothing to hide nothing to fear" thing, but they never give me their passwords to facebook, or their email, or voicemail, or let me go through their text messages.

I wonder what they're hiding.

this is similar to the argument that the blogger made and it really isn't terribly convincing. Saying "I don't mind PRISM because the government doesn't know who I am calling or what I am saying and since I am not behaving in a manner that is suspicious, I have nothing to hide" is not akin to saying "I walk around naked because I have nothing to hide".

Of course the danger is that the collection of metadata on phone calls would lead to erroneous appearances of suspicion which could then lead to wiretaps on people who would not otherwise be subject to them in the absence of that data but the "nothing to hide" rebuttal can be applied to virtually anything, including why you don't wear a mask in public.

I'll give you a real life possibility of misuse of metadata: My wife wife is a beautician and we have an in-ground pool. The various chemicals we purchase could put us on a watchlist.


which is the point of the my second sentence. The rebuttals the author of TFA posted are nonsense. The danger that seemingly innocuous privacy invasions can lead to something more, which he references, however, is the actual concern.
 
2013-06-12 01:08:43 PM

Pray 4 Mojo: I bet if that guy put his darkest and most private secrets towards the end of that 'article'... they would still remain secret forever.

/TLDR


Indeed. I started to glaze over after the description of the kafka story and gave up on the rest of the article..
 
2013-06-12 01:09:14 PM

redTiburon: Wait, I thought if Obama was doing it you guys were OK with it.


Nah, that's just Republican projection.
 
2013-06-12 01:09:42 PM

Moosecakes: I don't understand who these are targeted at? For the most part they seem to be preaching to the choir.


It's good to have solid philosophical support for a revolution. It gives those fighting a reminder of why they are fighting.
 
2013-06-12 01:10:28 PM
imageshack.us
 
2013-06-12 01:10:40 PM
You have nothing to hide if you are not doing something wrong, NSA.
-------
mrexcess:
Did you miss that whole "democracy" thing, where we have a right to tell our government to stop doing certain things without having violent revolutions?
-=-
So what do you do when they do not listen to you?
 
2013-06-12 01:12:08 PM
"If you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about"

"Do you support the terrorists?"

Sentiments expressed at those who opposed the passing of the USA Patriot Act.

Idiots.
 
2013-06-12 01:12:41 PM
hey subby, how did you know i have curtains that lock?
 
2013-06-12 01:13:46 PM
I had a friend who was very pro "If you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide."  Even to the point of saying all homes should have wi-fi smoke detectors that scan for marijuana smoke and report it to the authorities if detected.  He was okay with the TSA because he has a fear of flying.  We talked the other day.  He sees Snowden as a criminal and is hoping that Democrats are behind the whole thing so they can stay in power and expand the NSA.  I couldn't tell if he was serious or trolling.
 
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