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(The New York Times)   You want to take your gun with you on a trip to NYC? Fine, unload it and let the airline ship it in a special locked box. Then you can retrieve it and keep it in your hotel room no problem. Try to get it home? That's a felony and you're going to jail   (nytimes.com) divider line 314
    More: Asinine, safe-deposit boxes, New York, Hotel Lobby, minimum sentence, Port Authority of New York, airlines, LaGuardia Airport, Lesson Learned  
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11382 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jun 2013 at 5:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-11 03:58:43 PM  
I know the first reaction of most people is know the laws of the states you are going to visit. It's not that easy. Gun laws are legion and convoluted.
 
2013-06-11 04:10:07 PM  
But a defendant in a similar case, Bobby Glen Jackson, provided the fish-out-of-water gun owners' point of view. He said he did not think twice about bringing his pistol to New York City from North Carolina in April. When he went to visit the National September 11 Memorial and Museum and realized guns were forbidden, he hid his under a chair cushion in a hotel lobby, prompting a huge police response and his arrest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this guy probably isn't bright enough to carry around a gun.
 
2013-06-11 04:16:52 PM  

NightOwl2255: I know the first reaction of most people is know the laws of the states you are going to visit. It's not that easy. Gun laws are legion and convoluted.


And they change.

If you have information about NYS gun laws from just 6 months ago, it's woefully outdated.
 
2013-06-11 04:18:23 PM  
FTA " "I believe that I am being overcharged for my lack of knowledge. I was misinformed."

If only there were a pithy legal maximum to highlight the issues with this position.
 
2013-06-11 04:20:10 PM  
You also can't make a right on red.
 
2013-06-11 04:23:56 PM  

Tigger: FTA " "I believe that I am being overcharged for my lack of knowledge. I was misinformed."

If only there were a pithy legal maximum to highlight the issues with this position.


Never really understood that pithy maxim.

I feel like a government that deserves to govern would be one that was concerned that the citizens knew the laws of their own country and educated them to that effect.

If there's more laws than a reasonable person of average intelligence can commit to memory then there's too damn many laws.
 
2013-06-11 04:24:26 PM  

Theaetetus: But a defendant in a similar case, Bobby Glen Jackson, provided the fish-out-of-water gun owners' point of view. He said he did not think twice about bringing his pistol to New York City from North Carolina in April. When he went to visit the National September 11 Memorial and Museum and realized guns were forbidden, he hid his under a chair cushion in a hotel lobby, prompting a huge police response and his arrest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this guy probably isn't bright enough to carry around a gun.


Yeah...even as big a gun nut as I am, I know better than to try and bring a gun into NYC. Just how farking stupid can a person be?
 
2013-06-11 04:27:48 PM  

dittybopper: NightOwl2255: I know the first reaction of most people is know the laws of the states you are going to visit. It's not that easy. Gun laws are legion and convoluted.

And they change.

If you have information about NYS gun laws from just 6 months ago, it's woefully outdated.


Why would you trust 6 month old information in this day and age anyway?
 
2013-06-11 04:28:16 PM  
What if it's less than 32 ounces?
 
2013-06-11 04:28:26 PM  

James!: You also can't make a right on red.


I was driving in downtown Denver keep seeing signs that said, "No Double Turns". I asked one of the guys at the place I was visiting what they meant. He said that many intersecions have two right turn lanes. Those signs meant you can't make a right turn from the second right lane.
 
2013-06-11 04:28:53 PM  

Calmamity: Tigger: FTA " "I believe that I am being overcharged for my lack of knowledge. I was misinformed."

If only there were a pithy legal maximum to highlight the issues with this position.

Never really understood that pithy maxim.

I feel like a government that deserves to govern would be one that was concerned that the citizens knew the laws of their own country and educated them to that effect.

If there's more laws than a reasonable person of average intelligence can commit to memory then there's too damn many laws.


We can only have as many laws as our dumbest citizens can be bothered to learn.
 
2013-06-11 04:29:01 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Why would you trust 6 month old information in this day and age anyway?


Just ask the NSA, they should have the latest info.
 
2013-06-11 04:30:41 PM  

Calmamity: Tigger: FTA " "I believe that I am being overcharged for my lack of knowledge. I was misinformed."

If only there were a pithy legal maximum to highlight the issues with this position.

Never really understood that pithy maxim.

I feel like a government that deserves to govern would be one that was concerned that the citizens knew the laws of their own country and educated them to that effect.

If there's more laws than a reasonable person of average intelligence can commit to memory then there's too damn many laws.


If we removed the rights of states to make any laws at all and had the federal government making all the laws there would be LOADS less laws.
 
2013-06-11 04:30:56 PM  

Aarontology: What if it's less than 32 ounces?


What if it's topless?
 
2013-06-11 04:32:26 PM  

dr_blasto: Aarontology: What if it's less than 32 ounces?

What if it's topless?


Well, bullets already kinda look like nipples.
 
2013-06-11 04:35:31 PM  
If you're thinking about bring your weapon to a state north or east of Pennsylvania, I have some free advice.

Don't do it.
 
2013-06-11 04:36:30 PM  

Tigger: FTA " "I believe that I am being overcharged for my lack of knowledge. I was misinformed."

If only there were a pithy legal maximum to highlight the issues with this position.


That was carved, in Latin, on the lintel to the main entrance of the Law School I went to.  I wondered how many people got the joke.
 
2013-06-11 04:36:40 PM  

Theaetetus: But a defendant in a similar case, Bobby Glen Jackson, provided the fish-out-of-water gun owners' point of view. He said he did not think twice about bringing his pistol to New York City from North Carolina in April. When he went to visit the National September 11 Memorial and Museum and realized guns were forbidden, he hid his under a chair cushion in a hotel lobby, prompting a huge police response and his arrest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that this guy probably isn't bright enough to carry around a gun.


I came to comment on this.
 
2013-06-11 04:38:43 PM  
Or just stay the fark out of Soviet New York.
 
wee
2013-06-11 04:40:05 PM  

dj_bigbird: Yeah...even as big a gun nut as I am, I know better than to try and bring a gun into NYC. Just how farking stupid can a person be?


The army wife bringing her husband's gun gets a pass in my mind.  The others? You would have to have been hiding under a rock for the last 15 years to not understand the level of mental retardation NY's legislature has inflicted on its people.  Just say the name "Schumer" to anyone who has been paying attention to anything but their own navel ought to know the score.
 
2013-06-11 04:40:25 PM  
It makes you wonder if people in North Carolina routinely check under seat cushions for guns, if this is supposed to be normal behavior there.
 
2013-06-11 04:41:04 PM  

NightOwl2255: James!: You also can't make a right on red.

I was driving in downtown Denver keep seeing signs that said, "No Double Turns". I asked one of the guys at the place I was visiting what they meant. He said that many intersecions have two right turn lanes. Those signs meant you can't make a right turn from the second right lane.


Kind of like a Pittsburgh left?
 
2013-06-11 04:46:43 PM  
Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.
 
2013-06-11 04:49:28 PM  

RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.


What I took away from it, it's illegal to have the gun in the city. Once they showed it to the people at the airport, they were basically saying, "look, I'm committing a felony". They should have never had the gun there.
 
2013-06-11 04:52:46 PM  

wee: dj_bigbird: Yeah...even as big a gun nut as I am, I know better than to try and bring a gun into NYC. Just how farking stupid can a person be?

The army wife bringing her husband's gun gets a pass in my mind.  The others? You would have to have been hiding under a rock for the last 15 years to not understand the level of mental retardation NY's legislature has inflicted on its people.  Just say the name "Schumer" to anyone who has been paying attention to anything but their own navel ought to know the score.


But I'm generally a gun control advocate and this seems retarded to me.  If it were illegal to bring the gun to NYC that would be one thing, but these people legally carry the guns to NYC, legally carry them IN NYC, but then get charged with a Felony when they try to LEAVE NYC with the gun (and the gun gets confiscated and destroyed to boot)?   Beyond Asinine.   And seems like an illegal interference by NY state in interstate commerce/
 
2013-06-11 04:53:39 PM  

NightOwl2255: James!: You also can't make a right on red.

I was driving in downtown Denver keep seeing signs that said, "No Double Turns". I asked one of the guys at the place I was visiting what they meant. He said that many intersecions have two right turn lanes. Those signs meant you can't make a right turn from the second right lane.


I saw that sign at a brothel once.
 
2013-06-11 04:53:57 PM  

Aarontology: dr_blasto: Aarontology: What if it's less than 32 ounces?

What if it's topless?

Well, bullets already kinda look like nipples.


Go on.
 
2013-06-11 04:54:21 PM  

RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.


You'd likely have to apply for and be granted a NYC permit, which are very difficult to obtain.  Carrying the weapon in the city or having it in your home/hotel in the city is illegal unless you have a NYC permit.  It's not the act of removing it that's getting them in trouble, it's that they're finally discovered in the city with a gun when they try to check it to return home.

The best course of action would be to read up on the laws of where you're going before you go, or better yet, don't take your guns on vacation out of state (obviously planned hunting trips or target shooting competitions would be an exception here, but if you're doing either, you'll just have to read up on the laws to make sure you're on the right side of them).
 
2013-06-11 04:57:34 PM  

NightOwl2255: RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.

What I took away from it, it's illegal to have the gun in the city. Once they showed it to the people at the airport, they were basically saying, "look, I'm committing a felony". They should have never had the gun there.


If so, they shouldn't let people pick up their guns at baggage claim, and/or heavily post that it is illegal to carry that gun in any manner in NYC.

Seems truly stupid and downright evil to just arrest otherwise law abiding citizens.
 
2013-06-11 04:58:35 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: If you're thinking about bring your weapon to a state north or east of Pennsylvania, I have some free advice.

Don't do it.


So much this. Once you cross the NJ state line you are in murky water. Just don't do it unless you feel like being a SCOTUS test case.

Go ahead and see if you can satisfy all these requirements.  http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_trans.html
 
2013-06-11 05:00:13 PM  

Magorn: wee: dj_bigbird: Yeah...even as big a gun nut as I am, I know better than to try and bring a gun into NYC. Just how farking stupid can a person be?

The army wife bringing her husband's gun gets a pass in my mind.  The others? You would have to have been hiding under a rock for the last 15 years to not understand the level of mental retardation NY's legislature has inflicted on its people.  Just say the name "Schumer" to anyone who has been paying attention to anything but their own navel ought to know the score.

But I'm generally a gun control advocate and this seems retarded to me.  If it were illegal to bring the gun to NYC that would be one thing, but these people legally carry the guns to NYC, legally carry them IN NYC, but then get charged with a Felony when they try to LEAVE NYC with the gun (and the gun gets confiscated and destroyed to boot)?   Beyond Asinine.   And seems like an illegal interference by NY state in interstate commerce/


They don't legally bring them in or legally carry them in the city - both are illegal, they just never get caught until they declare them trying to leave.

I can legally buy Cuban cigars if I go to Canada.  They can legally pack them up in a nice little box for me.  As soon as I cross the border back into the US with them I've committed a crime.

The difference here is that when you cross a border you get searched going in.  Flying from AR to NYC you're not going to go through security in NYC.  The gun you have is legal in Arkansas, and can legally be put in a box and on a plane in Arkansas, but it becomes illegal when you have it in NYC - just no one knows you have it.  If one of these people were caught carrying on the street or with the gun in their hotel room in NYC they'd be in just as much (if not more) trouble.

Ideally the airlines should know where you are going when you have a gun you declare you need to transport, and give you a warning if you're going somewhere that requires special permits, but maybe they don't want to get involved in the liability that could come from such advice.
 
2013-06-11 05:00:40 PM  

RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.


It's not legal for a non-resident of NY to have a gun, at all, in the city apparently.  It's a per se offense, ultimately, so there is no way to transport it out since possessing it in order to transport it is itself a crime.

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-york.aspx
 
2013-06-11 05:03:08 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.

You'd likely have to apply for and be granted a NYC permit, which are very difficult to obtain.  Carrying the weapon in the city or having it in your home/hotel in the city is illegal unless you have a NYC permit.  It's not the act of removing it that's getting them in trouble, it's that they're finally discovered in the city with a gun when they try to check it to return home.

The best course of action would be to read up on the laws of where you're going before you go, or better yet, don't take your guns on vacation out of state (obviously planned hunting trips or target shooting competitions would be an exception here, but if you're doing either, you'll just have to read up on the laws to make sure you're on the right side of them).


So much this.

And if you don't like to read, I sure there is a number you can call and an official in New York will explain it to you. But just don't assume because you have a registered gun or a carry permit in your home state that you can bring your gun to another state. That seems like common sense to me.
 
2013-06-11 05:03:37 PM  

RoyBatty: What I took away from it, it's illegal to have the gun in the city.


There's no crime in NY, hence there is no need for a gun. If you don't *need* something, it should be illegal. Duh.
 
wee
2013-06-11 05:04:43 PM  

Magorn: But I'm generally a gun control advocate and this seems retarded to me. If it were illegal to bring the gun to NYC that would be one thing, but these people legally carry the guns to NYC, legally carry them IN NYC, but then get charged with a Felony when they try to LEAVE NYC with the gun (and the gun gets confiscated and destroyed to boot)? Beyond Asinine. And seems like an illegal interference by NY state in interstate commerce/


I don't get it either.  I mean, if you commit a crime on a plane (like entering NY with a gun, which ocurrs the minute you step off the plane), don't they get you on the ground, when you land?  If they really cared about disarming people in the name of safety, why let these folks roam around NY armed (or leaving handguns lying around) for however long, only arresting them when they want to leave?  Why get them only when they want to stop committing a crime in your state?

It makes no sense at all, unless you look at it from a punitive angle.  That Queens district attorney certainly makes that plausable, as he seems to be a raging twatwaffle.

Then again, I don't know that I'd ever travel with a gun, unless I was attended some activity at my destination that required it. (I also don't usually walk around my home state permanently armed like others do.)  But if I did, I'd sure as hell check the laws where I was going.
 
2013-06-11 05:06:46 PM  

mattharvest: RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.

It's not legal for a non-resident of NY to have a gun, at all, in the city apparently.  It's a per se offense, ultimately, so there is no way to transport it out since possessing it in order to transport it is itself a crime.

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-york.aspx


Thanks. Assuming that law is constitutional, it is a dick move by NYC not to set up NYPD approved armories at the airports (or other ports of entry and departure) and allow people to check their guns in and out of the state.
 
2013-06-11 05:08:14 PM  
Even I know that you shouldn't try to take a gun into NYC.  The hunting there is terrible and the people at the zoo were less than cordial about the whole thing.
 
wee
2013-06-11 05:10:06 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: They don't legally bring them in or legally carry them in the city - both are illegal, they just never get caught until they declare them trying to leave.


Isn't the airline complicit?  How would that be any different than if I picked up an (unknowingly) armed hithiker and we carpooled to Brooklyn?  If we got stopped and the cop saw my passenger's gun, wouldn't they jug the both of us?  I suppose I could claim ignorance, but how does that really help?  And how is that any less worse than United knowing I have a gun and gladly helping me transport it illegally?  Would it go better for me if I also knew the hitchhiker was armed and transported him and it into NY anyway?

I can see why it happens the way it does, but something just seems screwy...
 
2013-06-11 05:13:29 PM  

RoyBatty: Thanks. Assuming that law is constitutional, it is a dick move by NYC not to set up NYPD approved armories at the airports (or other ports of entry and departure) and allow people to check their guns in and out of the state.


The mayor of NYC is not the least bit interested in assisting gun owners. He would rather you didn't carry a firearm, period. He's not going to do anything to help.
 
2013-06-11 05:16:33 PM  

wee: TuteTibiImperes: They don't legally bring them in or legally carry them in the city - both are illegal, they just never get caught until they declare them trying to leave.

Isn't the airline complicit?  How would that be any different than if I picked up an (unknowingly) armed hithiker and we carpooled to Brooklyn?  If we got stopped and the cop saw my passenger's gun, wouldn't they jug the both of us?  I suppose I could claim ignorance, but how does that really help?  And how is that any less worse than United knowing I have a gun and gladly helping me transport it illegally?  Would it go better for me if I also knew the hitchhiker was armed and transported him and it into NY anyway?

I can see why it happens the way it does, but something just seems screwy...


Hitchhiking is illegal in a lot of places, not sure about the states surrounding NY, but even if it isn't, I'd assume it would be treated like accepting a bag from someone to carry across the border or on a plane only to find out after you're caught that it was filled with drugs - you put yourself in the position so you're liable.

I agree the airlines should look at your final destination when you check a gun, but according to the article they just post a disclaimer saying to check the laws for where you're going.  I can understand why they'd choose that approach over saying 'yes, go for it' or 'no, you can't bring it' because if they did, and they got it wrong, they could potentially be held liable as well.
 
2013-06-11 05:18:13 PM  
Wow! With all those laws keeping guns in check... I bet NYC is a blissful and nonviolent metropolis.
 
2013-06-11 05:22:42 PM  

Pray 4 Mojo: Wow! With all those laws keeping guns in check... I bet NYC is a blissful and nonviolent metropolis.


It actually is very safe compared to most other large US cities.
 
2013-06-11 05:23:19 PM  

NightOwl2255: I know the first reaction of most people is know the laws of the states you are going to visit. It's not that easy. Gun laws are legion and convoluted.


They tell you this in your HCP class. Do not carry you weapon into a state without knowing the laws of that state.
 
2013-06-11 05:25:13 PM  

wee: Magorn: But I'm generally a gun control advocate and this seems retarded to me. If it were illegal to bring the gun to NYC that would be one thing, but these people legally carry the guns to NYC, legally carry them IN NYC, but then get charged with a Felony when they try to LEAVE NYC with the gun (and the gun gets confiscated and destroyed to boot)? Beyond Asinine. And seems like an illegal interference by NY state in interstate commerce/

I don't get it either.  I mean, if you commit a crime on a plane (like entering NY with a gun, which ocurrs the minute you step off the plane), don't they get you on the ground, when you land?  If they really cared about disarming people in the name of safety, why let these folks roam around NY armed (or leaving handguns lying around) for however long, only arresting them when they want to leave?  Why get them only when they want to stop committing a crime in your state?

It makes no sense at all, unless you look at it from a punitive angle.  That Queens district attorney certainly makes that plausable, as he seems to be a raging twatwaffle.

Then again, I don't know that I'd ever travel with a gun, unless I was attended some activity at my destination that required it. (I also don't usually walk around my home state permanently armed like others do.)  But if I did, I'd sure as hell check the laws where I was going.


I'm not sure I'd expect the local cops to have access to the airplane manifest for every plane that lands. They have no idea you've brought it to NY until you try to check it back in when you leave or get busted when you shoot yourself in the leg at a nightclub.
 
2013-06-11 05:28:24 PM  

RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?


As is customary, you're supposed to hit your knees and blow a Democratic assemblyman selected in advance by the assembly speaker.
 
2013-06-11 05:29:55 PM  

RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.


Not bring it in the first place.

If you're going to be a "Responsible Gun Owner", part of that is actually knowing the laws of the state you are planning to travel into, and acting accordingly unless you want to be a media spectacle and a possible SCOTUS test case.

Ignorance or disagreement with the law is not an excuse to breaking it.
 
wee
2013-06-11 05:33:39 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: they could potentially be held liable as well.


Yeah, this occurred to me right after I posted.
 
2013-06-11 05:38:16 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Magorn: wee: dj_bigbird:

I can legally buy Cuban cigars if I go to Canada.  They can legally pack them up in a nice little box for me.  As soon as I cross the border back into the US with them I've committed a crime.


Actually just the purchase of the Cuban cigar is illegal by a US citizen, anywhere, regardless of the local laws. OFAC is very clear on this:

The Regulations prohibit persons subject to the jurisdiction of the United States from purchasing, transporting, importing, or otherwise dealing in or engaging in any transactions with respect to any merchandise outside the United States if such merchandise (1) is of Cuban origin; or (2) is or has been located in or transported from or through Cuba; or (3) is made or derived in whole or in part of any article which is the growth, produce or manufacture of Cuba. Thus, in the case of cigars, the prohibition extends to cigars manufactured in Cuba and sold in a third country and to cigars manufactured in a third country from tobacco grown in Cuba.

If you want to read about 31 C.F.R. part 515
 
2013-06-11 05:39:27 PM  

hardinparamedic: RoyBatty: Did that article ever include any kind of statement from an authority about what these people should have done to legally take the gun back home?

If so, I missed, and I think it would have added some value to the Michael Wilson's article.

Not bring it in the first place.

If you're going to be a "Responsible Gun Owner", part of that is actually knowing the laws of the state you are planning to travel into, and acting accordingly unless you want to be a media spectacle and a possible SCOTUS test case.


That's fine, but I am not a gun owner, and did the author actually come out and state what the law is that these people should know?

I read the article and think NYC is being a bunch of dicks, but I also think the author is a pretty crappy journalist.

Ignorance or disagreement with the law is not an excuse to breaking it.

Hmm, well, see Three Felonies A Day, How the Feds Target the Innocent by Harvey Silverglate

http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.aspx

Three Felonies a Dayis the story of how citizens from all walks of life-doctors, accountants, businessmen, politicalactivists, and others-have found themselves the targets of federal prosecutions, despite sensibly believing that they did nothing wrong, broke no laws, and harmed not a single person. From the perspective of both a legal practitioner who has represented the wrongfully-accused, and of a legal observer who has written about these trends for the past four decades, Three Felonies a Daybrings home how individual liberty is threatened by zealous crusades from the Department of Justice. Even the most intelligent and informed citizen (including lawyers and judges, for that matter) cannot predict with any reasonable assurance whether a wide range of seemingly ordinary activities might be regarded by federal prosecutors as felonies.

And yes, this is state law not federal law, but the above holds pretty well.
 
2013-06-11 05:43:53 PM  
While I feel bad for people that live in the nanny states as far as gun laws go, who the hell doesn't know better than to take a gun to NYC?
 
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