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(International Business Times)   So, when did the US turn into a surveillance state? Under Obama? Go back farther. During the Clinton years? Farther. Reagan? Still cold. Give up? The answer is: Nov 22nd 1963   (ibtimes.com) divider line 67
    More: Obvious, US Steel, surveillance state, National Security Agency, NSA, United States, Warren Commission, NSA warrantless surveillance controversy, Minnesota Public Radio  
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7797 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jun 2013 at 4:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-11 02:26:00 PM
I was thinking like 1950 under Joe McCarthy.
 
2013-06-11 02:29:17 PM
I was thinking earlier.  The dome shapes used in White House are conducive to eaves dropping.
 
2013-06-11 02:31:35 PM
The day before Doctor Who first premiered?  That's just weeeeeeiird.
 
2013-06-11 02:40:07 PM
The answer is: Nov 22nd 1963

i301.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-11 02:52:28 PM
I don't think Kennedy's assassination had so much to do with it as the Vietnam conflict did.

When it became about national pride to kick the asses of all those dudes in the black pajamas - and couldn't (not like we had destroyed the Huns/Japs 20 years prior) - and acting the tough guy supplanted smart policy, it was inevitable. I don't think Kennedy could have stopped it, RFK as AG or no - Pandora's box was opened once the conflict turned black (as in ops). And Vietnam being essentially waged off-book (meaning no formal declaration of war) and in furtherance of "the fight against Communism" (which started long before Vietnam) - an unidentifiable target, much like "terrorism" - meant that all means were in play and everywhere was the battlefield.

// so I guess you could say WWII - LOTS of espionage tactics were developed there, and it seems like 21st century spying is James Bond (who was the 60s, not the 40s - but art has a bit of a delay like that) with smaller and updated-for-the-times gadgetry
 
2013-06-11 03:00:16 PM

Dr Dreidel: // so I guess you could say WWII - LOTS of espionage tactics


The OSS basically turned into the NSA.

Yeah, it's a post-war thing. The trick is they didn't have the kind of tech to really do it up right until relatively recently, so I guess they had to be creative. Still I'm sure a black budget worked wonders then just as now.
 
2013-06-11 03:14:16 PM
We've always been at war with Eurasia.
 
2013-06-11 03:17:51 PM
How about the 1880s?
 
2013-06-11 03:17:54 PM
I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?
 
2013-06-11 04:16:23 PM

whidbey: Dr Dreidel: // so I guess you could say WWII - LOTS of espionage tactics

The OSS basically turned into the NSA.

Yeah, it's a post-war thing. The trick is they didn't have the kind of tech to really do it up right until relatively recently, so I guess they had to be creative. Still I'm sure a black budget worked wonders then just as now.


No, the OSS became the CIA. The NSA evolved much later from an Air Force electronic surveillance program. The CIA is civilian, while NSA is military (although those lines got blurry after 9/11). The NSA and the CIA hate each other and are often at cross purposes. Valuable intelligence has been withheld in the past because one agency just didn't want the other to have it.
 
2013-06-11 04:18:08 PM

Aarontology: I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?


G.W. maybe, but not his dad ...
 
2013-06-11 04:27:54 PM

revrendjim: Valuable intelligence has been withheld in the past because one agency just didn't want the other to have it.


We like to think of these programs as being run for the sake of the country, but much like cancer research, it's a cut-throat (no pun intended) race to matter more than the other guy. You know, because it's better to let the bomb go off if preventing it means allowing the FBI to make the bust and get the glory. Supposedly, this has gotten better after 9/11, but I don't believe that for a second. There may be better rules governing sharing, but the motivation to jealously guard info hasn't gone anywhere.
 
2013-06-11 04:34:22 PM
www.biography.com

Hey guys, whats going on in this thread? Oh, I already know.
 
2013-06-11 04:36:32 PM
They did a lot of surveillance and wiretapping and all that 60s spy shiat, sure.

But they didn't start collecting phone records like this until June 2001.
 
2013-06-11 04:41:31 PM
Article is supposedly about: The NSA spying thing

Article is actually about: Ancient conspiracy ratings about the JFK assassination
 
2013-06-11 04:43:28 PM
Article needs moar tinfoil....
 
2013-06-11 04:44:04 PM
1984
 
2013-06-11 04:44:15 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: The day before Doctor Who first premiered?  That's just weeeeeeiird.


whidbey: The answer is: Nov 22nd 1963

[obamatimemachine.jpg]



media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-11 04:49:23 PM
Pretty sure government turned to surveillance to preserve its power as soon as the technology was available.  Organizations tend to do that.
 
2013-06-11 04:51:28 PM

revrendjim: The NSA and the CIA hate each other and are often at cross purposes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax9KyLWNT0o 

And yeah, it was before 1963. I mean, just take an example from J Edgar Hoover: COINTELPRO was 1956 (from Wikipedia: "in 1956 Hoover was becoming increasingly frustrated by Supreme Court decisions that limited the Justice Department's ability to prosecute people for their political opinions, most notably communists"). I'm sure it's possible to go back long before then.
 
2013-06-11 04:53:27 PM

whidbey: The answer is: Nov 22nd 1963

[i301.photobucket.com image 450x385]


Aaaaaaand we're done here.
 
2013-06-11 04:54:38 PM
from tfa
In September 1964,that Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone, fired three shots with a Model 91/38 Carcano rifle   from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building in Dealey Plaza in Dallas and assassinated President Kennedy, while alsoconcluding that it was the most accurate and rapid firing weapon on earth at the time.

Which is when it was OK to stop believing in your congressional committees.
Because you know there is some doubt.
 
2013-06-11 04:55:17 PM

Aarontology: I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?


Remember this come next election cycle.  And by that I mean the lies told by candidates about "I won't do X", or "I promise to do X", when anyone who thinks about how the government works, knows it's a lie.

Filter out the little shiat and vote on actual changes/proposed changes.  For anyone to be now be surprised the government spies on everyone, or screamed bloody murder about the Patriot Act under demon Bush and evil puppet-master Cheney, is a blithering moran.  But, hey, I was a reed shaking in the wind when the subject came up.  I was told BO would be different.  Gitmo, much?

You want to vote for your guy, go ahead, but don't say your guy's different.  There's either a D or R in front of his name, and if you don't know the basic tenets of your party by now, you're too stupid to vote in the first place.

Anything that even remotely crosses state lines gives the Feds license to claim national security.  Virtually everything they have ever done has been backed up in court.

If you want privacy you have to go Amish and refuse to use all modern conveniences:

Phones
Banks/credit cards
Cable TV
Internet
I-Pass
 
2013-06-11 04:55:29 PM
As soon as the US became the global power is when the country became the national security state. So essentially 1946-1947.

The national security state is the ultimate expression of Betters and plebes.

There are those that know what is really going on and the rest of us. It is the same thing with the Banks etc etc

Funny that in a democracy we are supposed to know almost everything that our government is doing, and our government is supposed to know little or nothing about us. Interesting how that dynamic has changed dramatically. Citizens no longer feel they are entitled to know what their elected officials are doing, the elected officials do their utmost to hide their actions from public scrutiny and do not feel the citizens are fit to know let alone make decisions regarding these policies.
 
2013-06-11 04:56:29 PM

FLMountainMan: Pretty sure government turned to surveillance to preserve its power as soon as the technology was available.  Organizations tend to do that.


If only Ben Franklin had invented the first integrated circuit...

But they probably wouldn't have let him include the language in the USC because he would have undoubtedly tried to conceal a hidden joke in there somewhere.
 
2013-06-11 05:05:14 PM

FLMountainMan: Pretty sure government turned to surveillance to preserve its power as soon as the technology was available.  Organizations tend to do that.


There was this old dude named Sun-Tzu who figured this out a several years ago.  He wrote a book.
 
2013-06-11 05:09:32 PM

Aarontology: I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?


Poppy Bush, Preston Bush, Nixon, LBJ arranged the assassination to bring you the police state and military industrial complex.
 
2013-06-11 05:12:21 PM

Therion: Aarontology: I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?

G.W. maybe, but not his dad ...


And grandfather. Preston Bush had everything to do with forming the CIA. Bonus: taking time out to distract Ike with golfing.
 
2013-06-11 05:14:32 PM

Russ1642: 1984


Sales of 1984 up 524% on Amazon since this broke.
 
2013-06-11 05:17:15 PM

Dr Dreidel: 21st century spying is James Bond (who was the 60s, not the 40s


Umm, the first Bond book was written in 1953 and Ian Flemming died in 1964. I was surprised to learn that JFK admired or enjoyed the books and may have found them inspiring.

Rather than bring up CIA JFK assassination conspiracy theory, more attention should be paid to RFK. He made his reputation for trying to destroy the Mob and technology was developed to the point that thousands of illegal wiretaps were deployed against the Mob.

After JFK was assassinated, RFK abruptly stopped pursuing the Mob which many take to indicate that RFK thought the Mob was  responsible.

I think perusing domestic organized crime got a lot of the surveillance infrastructure up. Consider right now that most (all?) ISPs have "voluntarily" installed fingerprinters that scan all images to detect child porn. Who isn't against child porn? However that service can easily be extended to detect any images that the government considers "sensitive".
 
2013-06-11 05:18:20 PM
Obviously this means we need to give obama a third term.
 
2013-06-11 05:19:07 PM
So it started on the grassy knoll, got it.
 
2013-06-11 05:19:19 PM
Makes you wonder if Eisenhower understood that we were already too far gone when warning about the military industrial complex....while golfing, I guess.
 
2013-06-11 05:21:24 PM

Psycoholic_Slag: FLMountainMan: Pretty sure government turned to surveillance to preserve its power as soon as the technology was available.  Organizations tend to do that.

There was this old dude named Sun-Tzu who figured this out a several years ago.  He wrote a book.


I heard he died. Coincidence or Conspiracy?
 
2013-06-11 05:22:05 PM
Hey guys sorry I'm late, I had to open a new roll of tinfoil for my hat.
 
2013-06-11 05:22:14 PM

FTFA:

Many assassination researchers reject the Warren Commission's conclusion, arguing that through omission and/or commission, the committee's investigation was deeply flawed. The problem is, there's still not enough hard evidence to determine what really happened in Dallas

ROTFLMAO

The obamanites have now fallen to quoting JFK conspiracy loons.

Keep digging dims, you'll hit the bottom of the barrel soon.
 
2013-06-11 05:25:53 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-11 05:25:59 PM
Remember when the FBI wiretapped MLK and taped him talking with a mistress and then blackmailed him with it? That was fun. The best part is when they said that he should just make everyone's lives easier by killing himself as soon as possible. Good times.
 
2013-06-11 05:29:43 PM
images.unurthed.com
/ Earlier...
 
2013-06-11 05:32:07 PM
"That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are.


"We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary."

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-11 05:34:59 PM

OnlyM3: "That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens


Show me where this has happened. Or any of the other things he said there.
 
2013-06-11 05:38:39 PM

jigger: Remember when the FBI wiretapped MLK and taped him talking with a mistress and then blackmailed him with it? That was fun. The best part is when they said that he should just make everyone's lives easier by killing himself as soon as possible. Good times.


Remember when Kennedy was banging that Inga Marie Arvadi chick who was suspected (by some) of being an East German spy? Remember when Hoover used that info to keep his job as the top FBI dude when the Kennedy's wanted him out because he wasn't promoting their Civil Rights programs like they wanted?  Good times indeed.
 
2013-06-11 05:41:04 PM
It's cyclical - happens whenever there's a witch-hunt. The first of course, was the literal witch hunt in Salem, but the Red Scare and the terrorist paranoia are simply same shiat, different century. Little changes but the tech involved.

The exact moment it originally started, or when this wave of it did aren't nearly as important as the other question - can we stop it? If we can, we're good until the next cycle, 2-3 generations down the line. If not, well... history's full of what happens to nations that fail to turn back from this path. Thankfully, far more often than not, sanity does ultimately reign... though it may take a couple of decades.
 
2013-06-11 05:43:49 PM
Ezra Klein made the distinction that a more appropriate term is a Vouyer State as opposed to a Surveillance State.
 
2013-06-11 05:45:38 PM
I don't give a rat ass where or when it started. I am more concerned about where its gonna end up.
 
2013-06-11 05:47:13 PM
evaned: And yeah, it was before 1963. I mean, just take an example from J Edgar Hoover

You are correct, sir. Hoover was most probably not the very first to recommend that the US government spy on the public, but he was a die-hard advocate for it at least as far back as the mid-1920s, about ten years before the Bureau of Investigation became the FBI.

The real issue today isn't that the NSA is spying on us. That's basically part of their job. The real issue is that the last 15 years or so have shown that they're so bad at spying. They miss the stuff that it's their job to catch. They spy on people in ways they shouldn't -- and shouldn't need to. They become obsessed with trivia and abuse their powers.

And they get their ass handed to them by some random twit. It's immediately apparent that if that could happen, then undoubtedly (A) other twits are easily selling intelligence to foreign powers, corporate assholes, and other unentitled jackoffs, and (B) other twits are abusing their spying powers for various other unsavory reasons.

The NSA (and, indeed, the government as a whole) has no mandate to violate the Constitution if they can't do their job in the first place. It's just like how we don't let you be a cop if you drunkenly wave your gun around in public. You have to justify your right to special privileges. Saying that we need someone to do it doesn't mean some incompetent gets to do it.

/yes, I know, this rant will be added to my file
 
2013-06-11 05:56:54 PM
vernonFL

OnlyM3: "That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens

Show me where this has happened. Or any of the other things he said there.

www.criminalthinking.net
 
2013-06-11 05:57:26 PM
From the description of what Kennedy was trying to do with "scattering the CIA to the four winds," it very much sounds plausible that the CIA took him out to keep itself alive. The CIA is now a rogue enemy terrorist organization within the DNA of the US Government. Oops, I guess I'm going to be taken away somewhere.

If you don't see any posts from me in the next few weeks, you know what happened.
 
2013-06-11 06:01:30 PM

OnlyM3: vernonFL

OnlyM3: "That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens

Show me where this has happened. Or any of the other things he said there.
[www.criminalthinking.net image 418x325]


0/10 Would not use for citation.

Also, if it's not illegal to obtain information for security, we just have to make sure we're not wiretapping and saving the actual conversations. And as recent information has shown, the conversations themselves aren't being collected.
 
2013-06-11 06:01:42 PM

fickenchucker: Aarontology: I guess this absolves Bush then, huh?

Remember this come next election cycle.  And by that I mean the lies told by candidates about "I won't do X", or "I promise to do X", when anyone who thinks about how the government works, knows it's a lie.

Filter out the little shiat and vote on actual changes/proposed changes.  For anyone to be now be surprised the government spies on everyone, or screamed bloody murder about the Patriot Act under demon Bush and evil puppet-master Cheney, is a blithering moran.  But, hey, I was a reed shaking in the wind when the subject came up.  I was told BO would be different.  Gitmo, much?

You want to vote for your guy, go ahead, but don't say your guy's different.  There's either a D or R in front of his name, and if you don't know the basic tenets of your party by now, you're too stupid to vote in the first place.

Anything that even remotely crosses state lines gives the Feds license to claim national security.  Virtually everything they have ever done has been backed up in court.

If you want privacy you have to go Amish and refuse to use all modern conveniences:

Phones
Banks/credit cards
Cable TV
Internet
I-Pass


As long as amish women can get all dolled up in some hot stockings and heels, I can go along with the return to a simpler life.
 
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